Making an effective Arena Fighter?

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So I'm working on a concept for a character that's going to be a gladiator of sorts, and the Arena Fighter build intrigued me for the free proficiencies and versatility it offered as well as the fun improvised weapons. Pit Fighter seemed a logical choice, though Gladiator Champion was concidered as well. I'm unsure of the race, so options are open. How would you optimize the versatility of an Arena Fighter with multiple weapons though? I like the whole 'walking-weapon-rack' idea it offers, but I would like to optimize on that potential without sacrificing any of his effectiveness.


If anyone's got ideas, please share since Arena Fighters are a new area for me and I'm a little unsure how to build him.
RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
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[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
I think that one of the keys to Arena fighters working is inherent bonuses. Without using that sort of system, it will be too costly to really be as awesome as it could be. I think the most fun way to use them is to use a wide variety of weapons, but doing so only works if you can hit with them, and carrying around lots of weapons is too expensive if you have to maintain the +'s on them.

Given that they get a bonus to defenses while in light armor, you'll most likely want to be a Str/Dex split to take full advantage. You can take that feat to use Dex for your combat superiority. Since you probably want high dex, pit fighter won't be so good for you (or else you can have high wis and ignore one of the class features/have crap AC), but the gladiator champion is an awesome PP. Weapon Master powers (like Weapon Master Strike) work really well for this style because you can switch between weapons for the powers, which is really thematic and works pretty well.
A note to all who think I am being aggressive or angry- 99% of the time, I do not intend to be. I apologize if you think I am attacking you, odds are very strong that I am not. The only exceptions are when people become extremely uncivil to me, and even then I usually ignore them. I think it is very obvious when I am really mad; if I just seem generally abrasive, it is a reflection of my thought process rather than a state of emotion. I have the greatest respect for those who can debate rationally, even if we come to different conclusions. I am Blue/White
I am Blue/White
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
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I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
I'd rather do it without the inherent bonuses, even if it wouldn't be 100% as good as it could be, I think it'd still be fun. I was thinking Bugbear for the race, though Human and Half-Orc work just as well assuming a MM race wouldn't be allowed.
RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
Funny Forum Quotes
[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
You could multiclass monk or assassin for ki focus proficiecy and take ki focus expertise for an enhancement and feat bonus to attack with any weapon you have on hand. Arena training gives you proficiency with improvised weapons (not explicitly, but implicitly since you have to be proficienct with something to gain a proficiency bonus), so you can use a ki focus with them (since ki focus can only be applied to weapons you are proficiency with).
Hmmm. I suppose you could multiclass into a class with ki focuses; that way you could just keep one thing enchanted but be able to use any weapon you find. I just find one of the most fun parts of the arena fighter is their proficiency with improvised weapons; many fun times were had with very strange "weapons" at our tables.

EDIT- Ninja'd because of my TERRIBLE INTERNET CONNECTION XD 
A note to all who think I am being aggressive or angry- 99% of the time, I do not intend to be. I apologize if you think I am attacking you, odds are very strong that I am not. The only exceptions are when people become extremely uncivil to me, and even then I usually ignore them. I think it is very obvious when I am really mad; if I just seem generally abrasive, it is a reflection of my thought process rather than a state of emotion. I have the greatest respect for those who can debate rationally, even if we come to different conclusions. I am Blue/White
I am Blue/White
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
You could also just take the magic weapon type that you can turn into any other weapon. Versatile, I think.
Also, I believe optimizing arena training usually revolves around cheesing the essentials expertise feats (giving weapons reach with staff, increasing pushes with bludgeon, etc).
Arena training gives you proficiency with improvised weapons (not explicitly, but implicitly since you have to be proficienct with something to gain a proficiency bonus), so you can use a ki focus with them (since ki focus can only be applied to weapons you are proficiency with).

I wouldn't call that Rules-as-Written, but I would call any DM a stupid-head for not agreeing to go by that ruling. A proficiency bonus does not make proficiency, and proficiency does not make a proficiency bonus. But the feature should've said "and you gain proficiency in them" too.

Also, the rules for feats affecting Arena Training weapons say that feats (that give a feat bonus to attack or damage with one of your arena training weapons) apply to all your arena training weapons. This means, at least by the rules as written, that any such feat (staff expertise, silvery glow, githzerai blade mastery, ect.) grants all its benefits, since the "gives a feat bonus to attack or damage rolls" is written in as merely to specify which feats the feature refered to. As such, you can pick the expertise feats that give other benefits and apply them to different weapon groups, so long as you have at least one weapon of the desired weapon group amongst your arena training proficiencies (and you can take Extended Arena Training to increase it to four). Staff Expertise and Bludgeoning Expertise seem to offer the most, with the reach and the push/slide bonus.

Heck, see if you can convince your DM that you can pick "Improvised One/Two-Handed Weapon" as one (or two) of your Arena Training proficiencies. Get reach and extra push while swinging doors and chairs! Certainly not optimal, but as optimal as improvised weapon fighting can get (unless something comes along that allows you to treat it as another weapon group).
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
You could also just take the magic weapon type that you can turn into any other weapon. Versatile, I think. Also, I believe optimizing arena training usually revolves around cheesing the essentials expertise feats (giving weapons reach with staff, increasing pushes with bludgeon, etc).


Dynamic Weapon is the one you're thinking of.

And yes, one avenue for arena fighter optimisation is indeed, that sort of thing.  Staff, in particular, adds a lot.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
Arena fighters oddly make the best unarmed fighting warriors that are not going to grab (brawlers are better grabbers).  They get a +2 d8 unarmed attack and you can use arena weapons to give it neat things like reach.
Wow, this might be a tad tricky afterall...has anyone built one before? I'm at a loss here trying to piece one together, and I'm not sure it'd be worth it if he'll be super sub-par

RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
Funny Forum Quotes
[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
What I find makes Arena Fighters so wonderful is their maneuverability. The light armor subsidy allows for you to stay in Hide and keep your 6/7 base speed, while a high Dex opens up Monk and Assassin multiclasses, both are which have very nice mobility feats.

I think the closest thing to an optimized Arena Fighter would be a) a highly mobile defender who shifts frequently and has varied interrupts or b) a hybrid/multiclass Throw and Stab ranger who takes advantage of free weapon proficiency and feat bonus sharing.
You're right in Option A, at least in the fact that it's more my style. Perhaps I'll work something up, failing that, I'll be taking a look at Philip's Annoying Rogue, for a different look at 'defending.' I mean, if you can keep enemies chasing you, they're not hitting your allies, right? I know the trick won't work forever, but he'll pack a hefty punch when the time comes.
RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
Funny Forum Quotes
[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
Arena Fighters can also do some interesting things with polearms because of how the arena feature works. Note that it says you gain all bonuses from any feat that gives an attack or damage bonus to one of your arena weapons. One of your arena weapons is a staff, and you take Staff Expertise? All of your arena weapons get +1 reach. One of your arena weapons is a hammer and you take Bludgeon Expertise? You now slide +1 distance with all your arena weapons. You can make a pretty nasty Polearm Momentum Arena Fighter if you can find a way to get good sliding. My personal preference is to go stormsoul genasi, and get Mark of Lightning and Shocking Flame, though that doesn't kick in until paragon.
And of course there is the arena fighter with the alchemist theme using an unlimited supply of sovereign glue to stick together parts of defeated enemies to use an an improvised weapon.
I did an arena fighter with a goliath for a campaign that is on hold for now.  Took goliath great weapon prowess and made my arena weapons falchion and fullblade.  Got the +2/3/4 feat bonus to apply to the fullblade that way.  Then I made my stats 18 12 16 8 14 10 and put my stat bumps into str and dex.  Had good balanced NADs, could qualify for almost any feat I wanted to, and was going to take Swordmaster for my paragon path.  I took steel vanguard student and at level 11 was planning to take Heavy blade oppotunist, so for charges (with swordmaster PP) and OAs I would have an at will that did extra damage to adjacent enemies and critted on a 19-20 with a heavy crit weapon.

I was thinking about going monk for my multiclass and then taking fluid motion and scale expertise, which would give me a speed of 8.

I also though about using bastard sword and drow long knife for my arena weapons.  Take dual strike and cleave for my at wills.  Then take deft hurler so that my OAs and Charges would let me do an RBA when I hit instead of extra cleave damage.   That would work real well with something like a half orc as the base race and maybe adding in Agile Superiority.

Arena fighter has fun stuff, but you have to be a bit more creative than with other fighter builds.
It just seems overly complicated for something with such potential for awesomeness. If it didn't require so much maintenance and special needs, I'd be happy to build one, but as it stands, maybe it is best solely in the DS setting...



RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
Funny Forum Quotes
[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
I didn't realize that Arena Training allowed you to apply the benefits from the essentials expertise feats to all your Arena weapons. That's pretty awesome.

I always assumed it was just the feat bonus to attack rolls that carried over.
I didn't realize that Arena Training allowed you to apply the benefits from the essentials expertise feats to all your Arena weapons. That's pretty awesome. I always assumed it was just the feat bonus to attack rolls that carried over.



Nope, all benefits.
RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
Funny Forum Quotes
[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
I didn't realize that Arena Training allowed you to apply the benefits from the essentials expertise feats to all your Arena weapons. That's pretty awesome. I always assumed it was just the feat bonus to attack rolls that carried over.



Nope, all benefits.



I know that it totally RAW, but it always seemed cheesy to me (and I love Arena Fighters). Are there any indications that this is an indended interaction (CB agreement, CS agreement, etc)? I mean I know it wasn't intended because the Essesntials feats came out afterwards, but that it is supported at all?
I didn't realize that Arena Training allowed you to apply the benefits from the essentials expertise feats to all your Arena weapons. That's pretty awesome. I always assumed it was just the feat bonus to attack rolls that carried over.



Nope, all benefits.



I know that it totally RAW, but it always seemed cheesy to me (and I love Arena Fighters). Are there any indications that this is an indended interaction (CB agreement, CS agreement, etc)? I mean I know it wasn't intended because the Essesntials feats came out afterwards, but that it is supported at all?



You can't prove intent without evidence from the people designing the ability and the feats themselves.  We can show that they could have just said that you can apply the feat bonus to other weapons but they did not write that and these feats came out afterword so there is a chance they wrote knowing they could be poached (and they were in design at nearly the same time which can be helpful to both sides).  Evedence for intent is circumstantial at best.  WHat we do know is that officially they work and that nothing has been done or said to the contrary.

It is like asking whether it was intended for intelligent blademaster to be used to allow eladrin knights to go int for an attack stat?  It certainly works and is thematic but you can't say whether it was intended or not by the writer of the intelligent blademaster feat.
It just seems overly complicated for something with such potential for awesomeness. If it didn't require so much maintenance and special needs, I'd be happy to build one, but as it stands, maybe it is best solely in the DS setting...






I really don't understand what the problem is Tongue out


It's true that there are a lot of tricks to do to make the arena fighter better and better.  But think of it this way;  if you just build it exactly the same way you would a weapon talent Dex fighter, but have the arena training class feature, all you're giving up is +1 to hit.


Even if you make absolutely no effort to optimize the arena class feature, you're still a figher, and you're still going to be awesome (as long as you don't intentionally pick bad powers/feats/etc).
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
It's true that there are a lot of tricks to do to make the arena fighter better and better.  But think of it this way;  if you just build it exactly the same way you would a weapon talent Dex fighter, but have the arena training class feature, all you're giving up is +1 to hit.

Also this. Think of it in this terms exactly. You're giving up +1 attack, but in return you're getting +1/2/3 AC and you're saving a feat or two on weapon proficiencies you probably wanted anyway. If you don't want the rest of the stuff we're rambling about, this is already all you need to run with it. It's a good trade, I think.
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
There are a few feats and paragon paths like forceful opportunist and pinning challenge that require weapon talent so you have to keep that in consideration as well, but you get access to feats like arena battle rhythm in exchange. 

That can have a pretty big effect depending on what you are going for in your build.  Those going for a more strikery build might prefer arena talent, while those going for a more sticky or control focused build might want to go with weapon talent.
I didn't realize that Arena Training allowed you to apply the benefits from the essentials expertise feats to all your Arena weapons. That's pretty awesome. I always assumed it was just the feat bonus to attack rolls that carried over.



Nope, all benefits.



I know that it totally RAW, but it always seemed cheesy to me (and I love Arena Fighters). Are there any indications that this is an indended interaction (CB agreement, CS agreement, etc)? I mean I know it wasn't intended because the Essesntials feats came out afterwards, but that it is supported at all?



From the CB known issues list:

"Arena weapons from the Arena Training fighter feature are sharing all bonuses instead of just feat attack and damage bonuses." 
If someone's got a build they made of an Arena Fighter, I'd like to take a look; I really do like the concept I just need to find a way to wrap my thought process around it.
RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
Funny Forum Quotes
[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..


From the CB known issues list:

"Arena weapons from the Arena Training fighter feature are sharing all bonuses instead of just feat attack and damage bonuses." 



So when that goes through, the only expertise feat worth taking would be Master at Arms - given its bonuses already apply to improvised weapons, it is already a good one to take.  Things like the untyped bonuses given out by spear exertise or light blade expertise will sadly no longer apply.

Its a shame you can't get arean training in improvised weapons or unarmed attacks.

From the CB known issues list:

"Arena weapons from the Arena Training fighter feature are sharing all bonuses instead of just feat attack and damage bonuses." 



CB is not a rules source. Patch notes for the CB even less so. Furthmore, the juxtaposition of "all bonuses" rather than "feat ... bonuses" makes it pretty clear what the actual bug is: feats that give untyped bonuses (e.g., Nimble Blade) to one weapon are being applied to the other.

The wording of the actual feature is perfectly clear. If you have a feat that applies a feat bonus to attack or damage, that feat applies to both weapons. Saying that this works for e.g. Githzerai Blade Master but not Staff Expertise has absolutely no basis in the rules.
If someone's got a build they made of an Arena Fighter, I'd like to take a look; I really do like the concept I just need to find a way to wrap my thought process around it.





Here's a cool build I've used a couple of times. He's a Mul fighter with arena training in Bastard Sword and Parrying Dagger. Combined with Two-Weapon Defense, Hide Armor Specialization and the Rhythm Blade enchantment, he hit 37 AC at level 16, higher than a plate and shield fighter with Plate Armor Specialization. With Dodge Giants, that increases to 38 AC against large (or larger) foes, which includes a lot of paragon tier enemies. You can also use Boots of the Fencing Master to boost it up to 39 by shifting every round.

The Gladiator Champion PP combined with Stonefoot Reprisal means that if someone wants to get away from him, they need to daze/stun him, teleport, or eat an OA.

If you prefer, you can also take Spiked Shield instead of parrying dagger, then MC rogue for the Blade and Buckler duelist feat. While you do gain the ability to use shield powers/feats, the feat investment is one higher, and it closes off other MC options.

He might not be the most optimized fighter build around (see LDB's guide for some build examples), but he is pretty effective.

Show
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Tiberius, level 16
Mul, Fighter, Gladiator Champion
Build: Arena Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: Arena Training
Arena Training: Arena Weapon (Bastard sword)
Arena Training: Arena Weapon (Parrying dagger)
Born of Two Races: Born of Two Races (Dwarf)
Background: Geography - Desert, Early Life - Kidnapped, Former Gladiator, Seeker for the Lost Clan, Martial - Scion of a Legend (+2 to Intimidate)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 16, Dex 20, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10.


AC: 37 Fort: 34 Reflex: 31 Will: 26
HP: 121 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 30

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +15, Athletics +19, Endurance +18

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +13, Arcana +7, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Dungeoneering +9, Heal +9, History +7, Insight +9, Nature +9, Perception +9, Religion +7, Stealth +13, Streetwise +10, Thievery +13

FEATS
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2: Two-Weapon Defense
Level 4: Master at Arms
Level 6: Resilience of Stone
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 10: Improved Defenses
Level 11: Armor Specialization (Hide)
Level 12: Stonefoot Reprisal
Level 14: Arena Battle Rhythm
Level 16: Dodge Giants

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter at-will 1: Dual Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Funneling Flurry
Fighter daily 1: Villain's Menace
Fighter utility 2: Pass Forward
Fighter encounter 3: Parry and Riposte
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Kirre's Roar
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
Fighter daily 9: Dancing Defense
Fighter utility 10: Clearheaded
Fighter encounter 13: Storm of Blows (replaces Funneling Flurry)
Fighter daily 15: Dust Storm Assault (replaces Villain's Menace)
Fighter utility 16: Defensive Advance

ITEMS
Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier), Rhythm Blade Parrying dagger +4, Boots of the Fencing Master (heroic tier), Strikebacks (heroic tier), Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Helm of Able Defense (paragon tier), Cloak of Displacement +4, Belt of Vim (paragon tier), Ring of the Dragonborn Emperor (paragon tier), Lifeblood Darkhide Armor +4, Master's Blade Bastard sword +4
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
Its a shame you can't get arean training in improvised weapons or unarmed attacks.

There's nothing saying that you can't, as far as I know. I've checked the PHB, at least, and there's nothing saying that you couldn't take proficiency in improvised weapons. "You don't," is what it says; because it is always worse than what you started with. Arena training fighters make good use of them, but even then they're not as good choices as longswords or even shortswords.
From the CB known issues list:

"Arena weapons from the Arena Training fighter feature are sharing all bonuses instead of just feat attack and damage bonuses."

That's a condemning piece of information... probably. The Character Builder development team isn't the Wizards R&D staff; there could be misinformation or assumptions at the root of this. It wouldn't be the first time the character builder condoned an illegal option or didn't condone a legal one. Worrying news, since I hardly see the threat in Arena Training fighters getting this sort of access. Especially since it's the only thing that makes improvised weapons possibly appealling (since you could give them reach and extra push/slide).
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
Its a shame you can't get arean training in improvised weapons or unarmed attacks.

There's nothing saying that you can't, as far as I know. I've checked the PHB, at least, and there's nothing saying that you couldn't take proficiency in improvised weapons. "You don't," is what it says; because it is always worse than what you started with. Arena training fighters make good use of them, but even then they're not as good choices as longswords or even shortswords.



Neither of those options are available in the CB so it would need to be houseruled.
That does look like an interesting build, BK, thanks for sharing it.

As it goes, I'm back to the drawing board on my Dwarf Fighter, there's just so much potential to be had there...
RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
Funny Forum Quotes
[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
The issue with allowing all bonuses from feats to bridge from one arena weapon to another is the stacking. Imagine hitting an enemy witha greatbow from 50 squares away with headsmans chop and grounding shot etc. the damage would be ridiculous.
Neither headsman's chop nor grounding shot provide feat bonuses, so wouldn't apply to arena training.
If you are on the "Expertise feats fully apply to all arena weapons, not just the +hit feat bonus" camp, then arena fighters can be pretty amazing.

A good pair of weapons to start with, just as an example, would be Spiked Chain and Singing Stick.  Then take Flail Expertise.  Then take Weapon Master's Strike, and use the Singing Stick (which is a mace) to get an at-will slide 1, which you then can turn into a prone via Flail Expertise.  Eventually at Paragon, you can take Lashing Flail (although then you'd need to use an actual flail MBA) and train out Weapon Master's Strike for some other at-will you might like better.  Note that since you have Flail Expertise, you can freely use an Alhulak, which is a decent flail option that you wouldn't necessarily want tying up one of your Arena Weapon slots.

Singing Stick is also nice for the +1 AC from being a Defensive weapon, and will be handy at 13 for Anvil of Doom.  Spiked Chain is a decent reach weapon if you need one of those.

Extended Arena Training is great to give you access to other weapon types if you want access to some other rider (or double up with some other Expertise).

Some way to do instant weapon swaps is very handy.  Quick Draw or Battle Harness get you halfway there.  In my Arena Fighter's case, he's a Thri-kreen which gets you the other half.  If you pay very careful attention to the Thri-kreen "Multiple Arms" feature and the Battle Harness property, you notice that they both say "once per turn", not "once per round".  So a thri-kreen with a battle harness can, for instance, use a Singing Stick and a Spiked Gauntlet for most of the round, then start his turn swapping the Singing Stick to whatever weapon he wants to use that round (if necessary), then when his turn ends, use free actions at the start of the next guy's turn to swap back to the Singing Stick for the +AC.  It's important for the off hand to have a spiked gauntlet (or wrist razors if you prefer), because it counts as a weapon for dual wielding purposes, but leaves the hand free for swapping-to-a-2H-weapon purposes.

If you can squeeze in a ki focus, that can help a lot.  But if you can somehow manage to acquire them, and have your weapon swap techniques worked out, it can be equally useful to carry around several custom enchanted weapons, each enchanted one point lower than the weapon you "should" have.  For the cost of a level 7 weapon, for instance, you can afford a level 1, level 2, level 3, AND level 4 weapon. The only question is how to squeeze all the right weapon enchants that you want out of your DM, since gold cost is only a secondary concern given that a lot of the enchants you want are probably going to be Uncommon or Rare.

It can be VERY worthwhile to trade that +1 to hit to have a number of selections such as Staggering Singing Stick, Vanguard Greatspear, Hungry Greatspear, Rhythm Blade Double Sword, etc.    Eventually you might even get your hands on an Eldritch Knight Double Scimitar (or other heavy blade double weapon) and have a Dual Strike that can smack any two targets within 5. There are a LOT of options.

Weapon swapping to access different enchants is a trick that almost any weapon class can use, but the possibilities and combinations available for an arena fighter means the tactic deserves special mention and attention.
I am using an execution axe and a spike chain for my dwarf.  I have dwarven weapon training so I get +2 damage to the spike chain.  I also took a paragon feat that allows me to do my dex mod damage on any attack with an arena weapon that does no damage.  Meaning I have a version of hammer rhythm but it only applies to the weapons I have as arena weapons, i.e. spike chain and execution axe.  I wish I had taken mordenkrad as my arena weapon instead of execution axe and take bludgeon expertise to increase my slides by 1.

My current set up is a dwarven arena master/polearm master that uses a staggering spike chain +2.  I have lashing flail, dragging flail, and flail expertise.  I also have agile superiority which allows me to use my dex mod as a bonus to my OAs.  This set up allows me to prone then slide 4 on footwork lure or on an OA.  I also have stonefoot reprisal and soon I will take repel charge.  If I had done mordenkrad and bludgeon expertise then I would have prone slide 5.  I drive my DM crazy because I have the slide distance I do.  And I could even do more if I had built him right from the beginning rather than relying on retraining to fix issues.