Targetting what you cant see.

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Ok,  please help me out here people.  On page 221 of the Rules Compendium it says that "If an invisible creature is hidden from the attacker, the attacker can niether hear nor see it, and has to guess the creatures position."


How exactly (in terms of game mechanics) do you guess where a creature is, when I know the actual square it is in (because despie its invisibility, I can see the token for that invisible creature in the square). 

So lets say that I as the DM want to attempt to guess which square a hidden & invisible creature is in.  I have line of effect (but obviously no line of sight) so I can potentially hit this creature.


What do I do to resolve this situation and see if I chose correctly???


Mike
Well... you saw where it was when it went Hidden. I'd pick that square 99% of the time. Walking into it also reveals it (though does provoke an OA).

Also as a minor action you can roll an active perception check. If you beat the Stealth roll then the creature is no longer Hidden.

See the sticky at the top of the forum for more info.
How exactly (in terms of game mechanics) do you guess where a creature is, when I know the actual square it is in (because despie its invisibility, I can see the token for that invisible creature in the square)

As a player

If a monster has truly become hidden so that you don't know where it is, your DM will remove the mini from the grid in this case, so you won't know (meta knowledge) where it is. 

Or your DM will leave the mini there and tell you you don't know, in which case you have to figure out how to separate IC and OOC knowledge - this can be tricky and there is no rule for it ;)

However, most of the time you will know what square it is (maybe not quite 99.9% but probably the majority  

Imagine this: a monster becomes invisible (standard action), moves 2 squares (move action) to square "A5", and makes a stealth check (at the end of its move action) that exceeds your passive Perception and becomes Hidden from you.  It then spends an AP to move or it has some power that allows it to move as a minor action, for example, a kobold can shift as a minor action, and again its stealth check beats your passive sense (if it even had to roll).

Now you have no idea where the monster is .. you just know the monster was in A5.  The DM could take the monster off the grid at this point.

Your turn: you want to attack the monster.  It's time to pick a square.

Chances are every invisible monster won't "move to A5", become hidden, and then move away again with stealth on the same turn .. so you'll know what square it is in.  But lurkers will often double move with stealth while their main attack power recharges and then you'll have to guess.

So lets say that I as the DM want to attempt to guess which square a hidden & invisible creature is in.  I have line of effect (but obviously no line of sight) so I can potentially hit this creature.

What do I do to resolve this situation and see if I chose correctly???

As a DM

I suppose you'd have to trust your player not to lie about where he is; alternatively you don't let the stealthed player take his mini off the grid and as a "fair" ;) DM you try to play your monsters' turns from the correct PoV - they don't have meta knowledge where to attack and have to guess a square. 

Again, tricky!
"Last known position" is what I used with my group.
Having played a rogue for 30 levels, and by mid epic being able stealth right in front of a foe (Cunning Sneak + Shadow Band), then add on a ton of extra mobility utilities, I had to do something for my DM to help him keep track of my character as I stealthed and moved about the board.

What I did was have some extra d20's around.
Every time I rolled a stealth, I took the d20 I rolled and placed it in the square (with the roll result showing) where the stealth took effect (ie: at the end of the action where I moved)  If I moved again, I moved my mini, but left the die in place.  The die then became my last known position.
If I need to chain together multiple stealth rolls due to excessive movement, place a new d20 die at each location where I rerolled.  Then the DM would be able to judge if a subsequent roll affected any sightings (lower roll) or dissappearances (higher roll).
Once I figured this system out, I never actually removed my mini from the battlemat and the DM would use the d20(s) to represent monster knowledge of my possible location.

I also used a Ring of free time[lvl29] (extra minor), Floorfighter straps[lvl15] (shift as free when stand up), long step[lvl21feat] (shift +1) and Agile Recovery[lvl2Util] (stand up on minor) to do what I called the Fish FlopTM.  Minor Fall Prone, Minor Stand up then shift 2 as free action.  A ridiculously roundabout method to turn 2xMinors into a shift!

An average turn would then be as follows
- Start turn stealthed
- Attack (lose stealth at end of action)
- Dbl Minor Fish FlopTM - shift 2 squares and stealth at end of action - drop down d20 in current square for last known position
- Move away from square with d20 - roll a 2nd d20 if I moved more than 2

As a DM the same tactic of leaving the die rolled for the stealth on the battlemat for the last known position (or a simple token if you don't want to tell your players the actual stealth roll) will help them determine what their characters "should know" about a stealth foe. 

PS. My stealth bonus at lvl 30 was 35, and I rolled stealth rolls twice and used the higest result.  Foes never saw me, ever.
- Out of combat, our ritualist gave us a +15 bonus to stealth rolls to boot.  So as soon as combat ended, I was typically hidden from even my party on a stealth result of up to 70.  This made some of the roleplaying/skill challenges more... interestingInnocent
RAW you can only hide from enemies, so you were never hidden from your party.
RAW you can only hide from enemies, so you were never hidden from your party.


I believe your statement is incorrect.

Copy pasted from compendium:
1)  Opposed Check: Against the passive Perception of each target creature present.
Note it just says target creature.  The rules in the compendium state no restrictions on what a target could or could not be.  In fact the only restrictions listed are things like "superior cover", "distracted" or "no LOS".
2) Success: The creature becomes hidden from the target.  

If you want to bring the flavour text in:
Creatures use the Stealth skill to conceal themselves from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, and sneak up on others without being detected.
- Even the flavour text says "others" as a potential use case.Wink
Interesting. PHB1/2 specify enemies. MP2 change didn't effect that text. So that is an RC change. Depending on when you played that Rogue I could have been right. Wink

I should really read the skills section in the RC carefully, I keep getting surprised by subtle changes in there.
Interesting. PHB1/2 specify enemies. MP2 change didn't effect that text. So that is an RC change. Depending on when you played that Rogue I could have been right. Wink

I should really read the skills section in the RC carefully, I keep getting surprised by subtle changes in there.


There was a ton of errata surrounding stealth, and it seemed to come out clarifying things as we came across these weird situations.  The errata was almost pretty well timed in fact for our campaign.  So I'm not hugely familiar with pre-errata rules since practically the entire stealth ruleset was completely re-written by errata, and the pre-errata rules had a lot of holes/weirdness in it.
PHB2 was errata. MP2 changed it to actions that involve moving (as opposed to just plaing Move actions only) to make it work with the new Rogue build. RC made the creatures change. That is basically it. The "Creatures" as opposed to "Enemies" thing is definately an RC change.
PHB2 was errata. MP2 changed it to actions that involve moving (as opposed to just plaing Move actions only) to make it work with the new Rogue build. RC made the creatures change. That is basically it. The "Creatures" as opposed to "Enemies" thing is definately an RC change.


I just checked PHB2 and sure enough... it does specify enemies.  So we were technically playing it wrong for a while there...
And by that wording, you can't just stealth in a random town in a back alley.  Cause the townsfolk aren't enemies, they're neutral and would be able to see you.  hilarity ensures! 
Actually (again by the PHB1/2 defintions) there was no such thing as neutral. Your party was your allies and allied NPCs. Everything else was your enemy. So you'd be fine.

RC changed that, as well. There actually is a neutral category now.
Actually (again by the PHB1/2 defintions) there was no such thing as neutral. Your party was your allies and allied NPCs. Everything else was your enemy. So you'd be fine.

RC changed that, as well. There actually is a neutral category now.


hilarity ensues.

Well, now we can all rest easy that the rules are figured out, and you can stealth against yourself!
I'd hate to see the rogue that loses all track of themselves.  Imagine being force moved while you are stealthed against yourself, you would no longer know where you wereLaughing 
Definitely funny, stealthed against one's self.  In my game I gave a character who I knows enjoys being sneaking what he thought was just a ring of invisibility.  But while it would work that way, once activated it couldn't be removed and would instead turn every article of clothing and item he was wearing, including the ring, invisible.  Fun homebrewed cursed object.  And even if the items were removed from his person they'd still remain invisible and anything he put on would become invisible.  So in a way, all his gear would stealth against him.  Sadly he changed characters before he ever used it...I want to put in game some time though.  Sorry I know this doesn't relate to the rules, but just reminded me of it.