Major Arguement over Inkmoth Nexus

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My theory:  Inkmoth is a land, lands do no have summoning sickness, Nexus (in land form) is played, I use one mana to activate his abilty to become a creature and swing, that is a land's ability, not a summon therefore he does not have summoning sickness

Opponents (more than one) theory: Because it was not on the field since beginning of turn, it has summoning sickness.

Problem with Opponent's theory: they are implying my land has summoning sickness, so why does every land not have summoning sickness? Exactly it doesn't, Rules say lands do NOT have summoning sickness

Another rule to aid in my arguement:  If a creature comes into the field, and has an instant style mana paying activated ability (not a tap ability) ex: Onyx Mage you can still use that ability right? If so then my land's abilty to BECOME a creature and not be SUMMONED as a creature gives it the right to attack

What is the correct ruling? 
Your opponent is right. It doesn't matter what other types permanent might have. If it is a Creature, it is a subject of "Summoning sickness".
You are right, rules doesn't say that Lands have Summoning sickness but they say that Creatures have. And your Inkmoth Nexus is a Creature in your scenario (in addition to being a Land).

There is no such thing as "Land ability" or "Creature ability".
Any creature, be it a regular one, a token, animated land or anything else, is subject to summoning sickness, if it doesn't have haste and its controller didn't continously control the object since the beginning of his/her most recent turn. That the land entered the battlefield as a land and later became a creature doesn't matter. You didn't control the object as your turn began so it is summoning sick and cannot attack.

Summoning sickness prevents creatures from attacking and using abilities with the tap or untap symbols. Anything else is not effected by it.
My theory:  Inkmoth is a land, lands do no have summoning sickness, Nexus (in land form) is played, I use one mana to activate his abilty to become a creature and swing, that is a land's ability, not a summon therefore he does not have summoning sickness

Opponents (more than one) theory: Because it was not on the field since beginning of turn, it has summoning sickness.

Problem with Opponent's theory: they are implying my land has summoning sickness, so why does every land not have summoning sickness? Exactly it doesn't, Rules say lands do NOT have summoning sickness

Another rule to aid in my arguement:  If a creature comes into the field, and has an instant style mana paying activated ability (not a tap ability) ex: Onyx Mage you can still use that ability right? If so then my land's abilty to BECOME a creature and not be SUMMONED as a creature gives it the right to attack

What is the correct ruling? 

Your land is not just a land any more - it is a creature, and creatures have summoning sickness.
(there is no rule "lands do not have summoning sickness" by the way; only one that says creatures do)
ΦΦΦΦΦ

Your opponents are correct.


The "summoning sickness" rule doesn't care about any other card types. If it is a creature, the permanent is subject to the rule; if it is not a creature, the rule doesn't apply.


Non-creature Artifacts don't have summoning sickness, but Artifact Creatures do. You can't say "Artifacts don't have summoning sickness", the rule just doesn't work this way. The same applies for non-creature Lands and Land Creatures (animated or continuously).


302.6. A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol or the untap symbol in its activation cost can't be activated unless the creature has been under its controller's control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. A creature can't attack unless it has been under its controller's control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. This rule is informally called the "summoning sickness" rule.


The rule checks for three things:
1) is that permanent a creature?
2) do you control the permanent continuously since the start of your most recent turn?
3) does it have Haste?


After being activated, Inkmoth is (now) a creature. You played it this turn, so you didn't control it continuously since the start of this turn. And it doesn't have Haste, therefore you can't attack with it.

[<o>]
Strictly speaking, the rules don't say anything has or doesn't have summoning sickness. "Summoning sickness" is an informal, flavourful term referring to the inability of creatures to attack or pay or :q: costs unless they have haste, or that permanent has been under your control continuously since your turn last started.

There are two commonly used models for summoning sickness:

1) Creatures enter the battlefield with "summoning sickness" which wears off when your turn starts. Creatures changing sides also get summoning sick, and permanents that turn into creatures sometimes get summoning sick (depending on how long you've controlled them).

2) Everything enters the battlefield with "summoning sickness", which wears off as your turn starts, but only creatures show any effect from it. Permanents changing sides also get summoning sick.

The first model is easier to explain and easier to grasp as long as you aren't turning things into creatures. The second model covers everything better, but is harder to grasp at first, and seems a bit weird until you find out you can turn things into creatures.
M:tG Rules Advisor
if you did not control a creature since the beginning of your turn, then it can't tap that turn.

Your turn begins.
You drop inkmoth.
you pay 1 mana and convert inkmoth.
You cannot tap because you did not have control of that creature since the beginning of your turn.
if you did not control a creature since the beginning of your turn, then it can't tap that turn.

"It can't tap" is a poor way of putting it, for several reasons:


The "it can't tap" wording is misleading about how newly played creatures interact with all of the above. Far better to say what it actually can't do - attack, or use abilities (of its own) with the or symbols in their costs. Anything else is fair game.
Jeff Heikkinen DCI Rules Advisor since Dec 25, 2011
point well taken.

Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.

What is the correct ruling? 


The correct ruling is one based on the following rule (with emphasis added by me):

302.6. A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol or the untap symbol in its activation cost can't be activated unless the creature has been under its controller's control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. A creature can't attack unless it has been under its controller's control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. This rule is informally called the "summoning sickness" rule.


Note that this says creature rather than nonland permanent or nonland creature, nor is there any other rule that creates an exception for lands.  Also, take note of the Mirrodin Besieged FAQ (Compiled by Matt Tabak, with contributions from Laurie Cheers, Mark L. Gottlieb, Jeff Jordan, Lee Sharpe, Eli Shiffrin, and Thijs van Ommen) which contains the following (emphasis added by me again):
* If Inkmoth Nexus entered the battlefield this turn and it's not a creature, it can be tapped for mana. If it becomes a creature that turn, it can't attack or be tapped for mana.   * If you've controlled Inkmoth Nexus continuously since your most recent turn began and it becomes a creature, it can attack or be tapped for mana.


No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

Question along these same lines.  Turn 1 I drop Inkmoth.  Turn 2 I drop a swamp then tap the Swamp to use Inkmoth as a creature and attack.  The card says that Inkomth is a creature until the end of that turn.  When it's my opponent's turn, am I then able to use Inkmoth as a land (or a blocker if necessary) since it ceased being a creature at the end of my turn?
Turn 1 I drop Inkmoth.  Turn 2 I drop a swamp then tap the Swamp to use Inkmoth as a creature and attack.  The card says that Inkomth is a creature until the end of that turn.  When it's my opponent's turn, am I then able to use Inkmoth as a land (or a blocker if necessary) since it ceased being a creature at the end of my turn?

Inkmoth nexus is tapped because you attacked with it. I don't think it's going to be much use to you.

Question along these same lines.  Turn 1 I drop Inkmoth.  Turn 2 I drop a swamp then tap the Swamp to use Inkmoth as a creature and attack.  The card says that Inkomth is a creature until the end of that turn.  When it's my opponent's turn, am I then able to use Inkmoth as a land (or a blocker if necessary) since it ceased being a creature at the end of my turn?


That depends on what you mean by "use it as a land".  It is a land (and has been the entire time it has been on the battlefield).  Note that activating its ": Add to your mana pool." ability or blocking with it will be rather difficult until you untap it somehow.

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

Question along these same lines.  Turn 1 I drop Inkmoth.  Turn 2 I drop a swamp then tap the Swamp to use Inkmoth as a creature and attack.  The card says that Inkomth is a creature until the end of that turn.  When it's my opponent's turn, am I then able to use Inkmoth as a land (or a blocker if necessary) since it ceased being a creature at the end of my turn?


That depends on what you mean by "use it as a land".  It is a land (and has been the entire time it has been on the battlefield).  Note that activating its ": Add to your mana pool." ability or blocking with it will be rather difficult until you untap it somehow.



That's kind of where I was headed.  I tapped it to attack.  My question was that since it's no longer a creature at the end of my turn, am I able to then use it as a land during my opponent's turn (in other words, does it untap)?  That answered the question.  Thank you.

Since I'm here......... Inkmoth only requres to turn into a creature (does not actually require me to tap it unless I actually attack with it).  With that, am I able to pump it (pay more than 1 land) and turn it into a bigger creature?


That's kind of where I was headed.  I tapped it to attack.  My question was that since it's no longer a creature at the end of my turn, am I able to then use it as a land during my opponent's turn (in other words, does it untap)?


110.6c A permanent retains its status until a spell, ability, or turn-based action changes it, even if that status is not relevant to it.


It remains tapped at the end of your turn, same as a Forest tapped for , a Runeclaw Bear tapped to attack, or a Llanowar Elves tapped for either reason (or even tapped by Icy Manipulator).
Since I'm here......... Inkmoth only requres to turn into a creature (does not actually require me to tap it unless I actually attack with it).  With that, am I able to pump it (pay more than 1 land [sic]) and turn it into a bigger creature?


The ability does not cost land, it costs mana.  And the ability says "becomes a 1/1 Blinkmoth artifact creature" not "gains +1/+1".  The last one to resolve would set its power and toughness to 1, same as the first one.  This might be useful if someone has used Humble in the meantime, but it won't do a lot if it is already a 1/1 Blinkmoth artifact creature with flying and infect.

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

Since I'm here......... Inkmoth only requres to turn into a creature (does not actually require me to tap it unless I actually attack with it).  With that, am I able to pump it (pay more than 1 land) and turn it into a bigger creature?

1. land is not mana just like cow is not milk
2. sure, you can activate it as often as you like, it will be a 1/1 regardless of how often you activate it, since it sets power/toughness to 1/1, not +1/+1
proud member of the 2011 community team
The ability of [C]Inkmoth Nexus[/C] is to turn it into a creature for the purpose of blocking an enemy attack. You block, it dies, the enemy attacker has a nice -1/-1 counter you can proliferate if it did not already kill it.

The obvious fact of not being able to attack with it when it becomes a creature is implying it is a sacraficial defender.

It works great because as a land it is immune to creature removal spells, such as [C]Doom Blade[/C] and [C]Grasp of Darkness[/C], but only while it is a land of course.

There are several obvious ways to prevent it from being a sacrifice when it blocks, but this isn't the place to discuss that, and mentioning this fact should already spark your mind to what I'd suggest.


Overall, it would need to have haste, when it becomes a creature, to be capable of attacking before the turn ends to solve the problem of what you want it to do.
The ability of [C]Inkmoth Nexus[/C] is to turn it into a creature for the purpose of blocking an enemy attack. You block, it dies, the enemy attacker has a nice -1/-1 counter you can proliferate if it did not already kill it.

The obvious fact of not being able to attack with it when it becomes a creature is implying it is a sacraficial defender.


Well, it can attack, just not on the first turn you gain control of it.

It works great because as a land it is immune to creature removal spells, such as [C]Doom Blade[/C] and [C]Grasp of Darkness[/C], but only while it is a land of course.


While it is -only- a land. if you're just animating the land, it doesn't stop being a land.

Overall, It would need to have haste, when it becomes a creature, to be capable of attacking before the turn ends to solve the problem of what you want it to do.


of course, it only needs haste if you plan on attacking the turn the nexus enters the battlefield. Once you've controlled it since the start of your most recent turn, you can animate it on your turn and swing.
Level 1 Judge. Feel free to call me out on any errors. I'm only human, and am working to improve.
The ability of [C]Inkmoth Nexus[/C] is to turn it into a creature for the purpose of blocking an enemy attack. You block, it dies, the enemy attacker has a nice -1/-1 counter you can proliferate if it did not already kill it.

The obvious fact of not being able to attack with it when it becomes a creature is implying it is a sacraficial defender.

Overall, it would need to have haste, when it becomes a creature, to be capable of attacking before the turn ends to solve the problem of what you want it to do.



Not quite. You CAN attack with Inkmoth Nexus provided it, Inkmoth Nexus, has been under your control since the beginning of your turn. It doesn't make a difference if it's a land or creature, as long as the permanent with the name Inkmoth Nexus has been under your control.

While Inkmoth Nexus might be useful as a blocker on your opponent's first turn after you play it, after that it IS able to attack.

Rules Advisor - 10/24/2010
It doesn't make a difference if it's a land or creature, as long as the permanent with the name Inkmoth Nexus has been under your control.


Regardless of name, as long as that permanent specifically has been under your control continuously since the beggining of your turn. [/nitpick]

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Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
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Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
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It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
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.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
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I don't say this often, but ... LOL
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You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
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I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
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112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
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Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
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Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
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This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
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HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
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+10
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heaven or hell.
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Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
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Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
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First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
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I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
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56957928 wrote:
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10/10. Amazing.

Overall, it would need to have haste, when it becomes a creature, to be capable of attacking before the turn ends to solve the problem of what you want it to do.


Take note of the Mirrodin Besieged FAQ (Compiled by Matt Tabak, with contributions from Laurie Cheers, Mark L. Gottlieb, Jeff Jordan, Lee Sharpe, Eli Shiffrin, and Thijs van Ommen) which contains the following (emphasis added by me):

* If Inkmoth Nexus entered the battlefield this turn and it's not a creature, it can be tapped for mana. If it becomes a creature that turn, it can't attack or be tapped for mana.
 
* If you've controlled Inkmoth Nexus continuously since your most recent turn began and it becomes a creature, it can attack or be tapped for mana.


No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

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