## Upkeep stacking

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Blue_mana
Joined Jun 2011
59 Posts
How does [C]Bottled Cloister[/C] innteract with [C]Brink of Madness[/C] and [C]Wheel of fate[/C]?
cyphern
Joined Jan 2003
19353 Posts
Since you control all three triggered abilities, you choose the order they are put on the stack. Whichever ability is put on the stack last will resolve first.

Note that Brink of Madness has an "intervening-if clause" (the part that says "if you have no cards in hand"). This will be checked both when the ability triggers and when it resolves, so if cards enter your hand by the time the ability resolves, the ability will do nothing.
rootbreaker
Joined Oct 2002
4787 Posts
At the beginning of your upkeep, first you determine what triggers. Brink of Madness will only trigger if you have no cards in your hand as your upkeep begins.

Then, you put the abilities that you control that triggered on the stack, in any order you choose. If your opponent has any abilities that triggered on your upkeep, they stack those afterwards.

Then, the abilities resolve one at a time, top down. Bring of Madness will only go off if you still have no cards when its ability resolves.
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studoku
Joined Apr 2009
1202 Posts
Assuming you control them all, you put them on the stack in the order you choose. They will resolve in the reverse of that order. Brink of madness has an intervening if clause. It will trigger if you have no cards in hand but only have its effect if you have no hand when it resolves.

There is no way to cause your opponent to end up with an empty hand- if wheel resolves before brink of madness, you will have cards in hand. If brink of madness resolves first, wheel of fate will replenish your opponent's hand anyway.
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Blue_mana
Joined Jun 2011
59 Posts
Note that Brink of Madness has an "intervening-if clause" (the part that says "if you have no cards in hand"). This will be checked both when the ability triggers and when it resolves, so if cards enter your hand by the time the ability resolves, the ability will do nothing.

Does this mean that Brink of Madness has to resolve first in order for it to work, or that it wouldn't work because I would end up with cards in my hand during the beginning of my upkeep?

cyphern
Joined Jan 2003
19353 Posts
Does this mean that Brink of Madness has to resolve first in order for it to work, or that it wouldn't work because I would end up with cards in my hand during the beginning of my upkeep?

For brink of madness to work, two things need to happen:

1) you have no cards in your hand as the upkeep step begins
2) you have no cards in hand as brink of madness's ability resolves.

Provided #1 happens, and easiest way to make sure #2 happens is to have brink of madness resolve first. However, there are other possibilities too, such as having Wheel Of Fate resolve first, then cast all 7 newly-drawn cards (emptying your hand), and then let brink of madness's ability resolve.

Merestil_Haye
Joined Aug 2003
4156 Posts
Does this mean that Brink of Madness has to resolve first in order for it to work, or that it wouldn't work because I would end up with cards in my hand during the beginning of my upkeep?

The former.

The beginning of your upkeep is a single specific moment in game time. As soon as you do anything, including put triggered abilities on the stack, you have passed the point that upkeep begins.

Brink checks your hand size when the upkeep starts. Since you presumably have no cards in hand (because of the Cloister) it will trigger. You then choose which of the triggers to put on the stack first.

If you stack the Cloister first, the Brink trigger will resolve first, check your hand size again; because you have zero cards, your opponent discards their hand. Then you resolve the Cloister's trigger.
If you stack the Brink trigger first the Cloister trigger will resolve first. Thus you'd get back any cloistered card then draw a card; this means you will have cards in hand when the Brink trigger checks your hand size. This will result in the Brink trigger being removed from the stack with no effect.

Cloister and Wheel of Fate interact similarly. If you make the Wheel's suspend trigger resolve first, you get 7 cards from the Wheel, then the Ccloistered cards back, then another card. If you make the Cloister resolve first, you get the cloistered cards back, then draw a card, then discard your hand and draw 7.

Wheel of Fate and Brink of Madness don't synergise; whichever way you stack the triggers, you and your opponent wind up with seven cards in hand.
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Blue_mana
Joined Jun 2011
59 Posts
However, there are other possibilities too, such as having Wheel Of Fate resolve first, then cast all 7 newly-drawn cards (emptying your hand), and then let brink of madness's ability resolve.

Wheel of Fate and Brink of Madness don't synergise; whichever way you stack the triggers, you and your opponent wind up with seven cards in hand.

Which is correct?
rootbreaker
Joined Oct 2002
4787 Posts
They're both correct. Merestil_Haye is just making the not-unreasonable assumption that you won't draw 7 instants from the wheel and have the mana to cast all of them.
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cyphern
Joined Jan 2003
19353 Posts
However, there are other possibilities too, such as having Wheel Of Fate resolve first, then cast all 7 newly-drawn cards (emptying your hand), and then let brink of madness's ability resolve.

Wheel of Fate and Brink of Madness don't synergise; whichever way you stack the triggers, you and your opponent wind up with seven cards in hand.

Which is correct?

Both. Merestil_Haye was pointing out that the cards don't work well together from a strategic point of view. I was highlighting one possible interaction between the two cards, while not commenting on its strategic value.

If wheel of fate resolves first, drawing 7 random cards that happen to all be instants and happen to all be affordable is possible (which is what i was saying), but not likely. Since it is unlikely, it is not good to rely on this as a strategy.

If brink of madness resolves first, you can be confidant that it will have its effect reliably. But brink of madness will be followed by wheel of fate, which refills the opponent's hand and negates the point of brink of madness.
Blue_mana
Joined Jun 2011
59 Posts
Yeah, of course, my bad.
Blue_mana
Joined Jun 2011
59 Posts
Then how will dark suspicions interact with bottled cloister?
rezzahan
Joined Mar 2011
8748 Posts
Both Dark Suspicions and Bottled Cloister trigger at the same time and you control them both, so you control their order on the stack. You can put Cloister on the bottom with Suspisions on top to have your opponent dealt damage equal to the number of cards in their hand minus whatever number of cards you (still) have in hand. Or you can do it the other way around, thus first exiling all cards in your hand and then having damage dealt to your opponent equal to the number of cards in their hand minus zero (the number of cards in your hand at that time).

Edit: This applies only, if you control them both,of course. If they are controlled by different players, the triggers go onto the stack in APNAP order. Say, you control the Cloister and your opponent controls the Suspions. Then in your opponent's upkeep only the Cloister triggers, making this case trivial. At the beginning of your upkeep, however, since you are the active player, Cloister's trigger goes onto the stack first followed by Suspicions. You haven't returned the cards to your hand nor drawn a card yet, so you are dealt no damage (zero minus whatever is zero or less resulting in zero damage for you).

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Blue_mana
Joined Jun 2011
59 Posts
Ok, thanks for all the answers, but I have som more questions. First, based on what you told me I assume I can use [C]Reef Shaman[/C] to change my opponents lands so that [C]Mask Of Intolerance[/C] deals 3 damage to them at their upkeep.

Do I control which order abilities goes on the stack in my upkeep, or do I only determine the order when it comes to my permanents?

If my oponents controls the [C]Dark Suspicions[/C] and I control the [C]Bottled Cloister[C], could I allow the Suspicions ability to go on the stack first?

Could I chose to have all my upkeep abilities resolving before my opponents'.

If there are multiple players, who choses the order?

Enigma256
Joined Jul 2010
14845 Posts
Mask of Intolerance has an "intervening if-clause"
if the condition is not met, it will not trigger

so you can't have it trigger, change all his lands, and then have it deal damage
he needs to have 4 or more basic land types at the beginning of his upkeep

if your opponent controls Dark Suspicions and you control Bottled Cloister it will always be stacked Dark Suspicions below Bottled Cloister
you don't have a choice

you can put all the triggers you control onto the stack in whichever order you want, then the player whose turn it would be next does the same, then the next player, etc.
they resolve in reverse order
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Blue_mana
Joined Jun 2011
59 Posts
1. But the Mask's ability doesn't  trigger until after the land type would have beed changed?

2. Does the abilities on the stack at the begining of the upkeep pass priority like spells and abilities played in the main phases, but I have to start because I am the active player?
Enigma256
Joined Jul 2010
14845 Posts
1. no
it triggers right at the beginning of the upkeep if he has 4 or more basic landtypes, or not at all
you have to change the lands before the upkeep (hard, but not totally impossible)

2. yes, each triggered ability resolves seperately with each player getting priority after each and every one
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Blue_mana
Joined Jun 2011
59 Posts
Then what if I have four basic lands and terraformer on the battlefield and my opponent have mask of intolerance. Could I change my lands after the masks ability trigger to avoid damage?
Argus_Panoptes
Joined Sep 2004
5655 Posts
Then what if I have four basic lands and terraformer on the battlefield and my opponent have mask of intolerance. Could I change my lands after the masks ability trigger to avoid damage?

Yes.  And if you have a use for mana of the other colors during your upkeep (or any non-mana abilities your lands might have), you can activate those abilities before the Terraformer ability resolves.
603.4. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn't true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. (The word "if" has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an "if" that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
Example: Felidar Sovereign reads, "At the beginning of your upkeep, if you have 40 or more life, you win the game." Its controller's life total is checked as that player's upkeep begins. If that player has 39 or less life, the ability doesn't trigger at all. If that player has 40 or more life, the ability triggers and goes on the stack. As the ability resolves, that player's life total is checked again. If that player has 39 or less life at this time, the ability is removed from the stack and has no effect. If that player has 40 or more life at this time, the ability resolves and that player wins the game.

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Enigma256
Joined Jul 2010
14845 Posts
Then what if I have four basic lands and terraformer on the battlefield and my opponent have mask of intolerance. Could I change my lands after the masks ability trigger to avoid damage?

yes, "intervening if-clause" triggers recheck their trigger condition on resolution
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