Substituting Melee Basic Attack

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When you charge or aop it says you use a melee basic attack, understood.  But some powers say you may use this power in place of a charge or in place of an aop, does that mean if a power can be used in place of a melee basic attack it could be used for charging and aop'ing?

For example I think 'ensorcelled blade' says it can be used in place of a melee basic, so if you charge or aop can you use the ensorcelled blade power instead to attack with CHA vs AC instead of STR vs AC?

Thanks for any help.
Yes it could. Powers usable as or usable in place of Ranged or Melee Basic Attacks can act as substitute whenever such Attack can be used.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
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This is also why Eldritch Strike has so much lasting popularity, in case you were wondering.
And why Corellon and Oghma get worshipped more than Tempus now....  Power of Skill allows certain at-will powers (one each from Avenger, Cleric, Invoker and Paladin) to be used as a basic attack.  And in order to take Power of Skill, you have to worship a deity of the Skill domain. 
Just to be clear.  If an attack can be used in place of the MBA at the end of a charge, does NOT mean you can use it for other MBA's, like Opportunity Attacks.

 
Just to be clear.  If an attack can be used in place of the MBA at the end of a charge, does NOT mean you can use it for other MBA's, like Opportunity Attacks.
 



That's correct.  If it specifies "when Charging", then you need to be Charging to use it as an MBA.
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Found this thread searching for info on Berserker powers, and it just made the level 17 Shoulder Slam my number 1 encounter power on my level 17 Dragonborn Berserker/Iron Vanguard Triple-headed flail wielder.


Using horned helm, vanguard weapon, Draconic Arrogance, and Iron Vanguard Trample, what was once a meager:


2[W]+25 +d6 +d8 push and 1[W]+14 secondary

Has now become:

2[W]+36 +d6 +3d8 push and prone and 1[W]+25 +2d8 prone secondary.

A 4d8+22 increase to what it was before beats out any other level 17 power, or any other encounter I have.

Berserkers and Barbarians have a buttload of powers you can substitute in for basic attacks when you charge.  And being able to combine them with Berserker Fury when you're done acting as defender during the encounter is pretty nice. 
Also worth noting that 'counts as' and 'can be used as' MBA/RBA powers are very different from 'can be used in place of' - the latter don't bbenefit from anything that triggers off the use of a basic attack, the former two do.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
When you charge or aop it says you use a melee basic attack, understood.  But some powers say you may use this power in place of a charge or in place of an aop, does that mean if a power can be used in place of a melee basic attack it could be used for charging and aop'ing?

For example I think 'ensorcelled blade' says it can be used in place of a melee basic, so if you charge or aop can you use the ensorcelled blade power instead to attack with CHA vs AC instead of STR vs AC?

Thanks for any help.



Something else to mention, which another posted did bring up as well, is that if they use the replacement it still counts as a charge.

For example a character with a str mod of 5 using horned helm, Vanguard weapon and Surprising charge using a Gouge would normally have charge damage like this:

2d6b1 (MBA) + 1d6 (Horned) + 1d8 (Vanguard) +2d6b1 (Surprising Charge) + 10 (5 of this is Str mod)

If that character uses boots of the mighty charge to replace the MBA he gets the following:
2d6b1 (Rain of Blows) + 1d6 (Horned) + 1d8 (Vanguard) +2d6b1 (Surprising Charge) + 5
2d6b1 (Rain of Blows) + 1d6 (Horned) + 1d8 (Vanguard) +2d6b1 (Surprising Charge) + 5
2d6b1 (Rain of Blows) + 1d6 (Horned) + 1d8 (Vanguard) +2d6b1 (Surprising Charge) + 5

Assuming he hits even twice it will be a significant amount of extra damage. 
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Also worth noting that 'counts as' and 'can be used as' MBA/RBA powers are very different from 'can be used in place of' - the latter don't bbenefit from anything that triggers off the use of a basic attack, the former two do.

Right. The concensus is that if the power is worded as 'in place of', is not an MBA. However, if it is worded as 'Counts as' or 'can be used as' it is an MBA and is affected by anything that affects MBAs.

I'll add this to the forum FAQ.

The consensus was actually that there was no consensus because Wizard purposefully uses different wordings with similar powers.  If you want to bring in an english professor to rewrite the rulebook that's going to be a large homebrew project.  The character builder treats "in place of" attacks (such as the one from werebear theme) as the same as a basic attack.  Giving such powers bonuses from Bracers of Mighty Striking and feats that augment MBAs.

 

As faulty as the hordes of people who aren't willing to pay for an insider subscription believe it to be, it is an actual Wizard product that applies whosits and whatsits.

So, your build didn't work, you decided to intentionally cheat and you wanted to justify yourself in front of your DM and the community that made that consensus, by utilizing the brilliant argument that the CB is an official product and therefore has to be right. 

To burst your bubble, there were a lot of scrubs involved in designing 4e and the consensus made in these forums are the actual rules.

Yes, the Character Builder, and the Online Compedium are NOT official rules sources (I believe there is an official statement to that effect from WOTC but I'm not sure where to link you to show it), and in fact get many, many rules wrong.  If it is applying bonuses to powers with that "in place of" text, then it is the character builder that is wrong, not the community. 

    WOTC has never actually made any official statement that I am aware of regarding those three different wordings and if they are supposed to be treated differently or identially, and they likely never will.

On the other hand, people called the Wizards support line, got an answer they didn't like, and justified not using it that way by saying that since they've been wrong before, they must be wrong now.  A group on a forum made up of a minority of people that agree on homebrew rules and posted about it does not make a consensus for the entire 4e community.

 

And how exactly do you cheat in a game where the rules are ultimately decided by your DM?

Vulf wrote:

And how exactly do you cheat in a game where the rules are ultimately decided by your DM?

By applying bonuses to MBAs to things that can only be used in place of MBAs.

Vulf wrote:

On the other hand, people called the Wizards support line, got an answer they didn't like, and justified not using it that way by saying that since they've been wrong before, they must be wrong now.  A group on a forum made up of a minority of people that agree on homebrew rules and posted about it does not make a consensus for the entire 4e community.

Gosh..

Don't be ridiculous, please. Wizard support is demonstrably wrong about a very high percentage of requests (~80% ?). And they're not only wrong about tricky problems, they somehow don't even know their own basic rules.

And in terms of system mastery you wont find a forum equally adept as this one. Nothing "homebrew" in here.

But go on, have a nice time cheating, you just wont find any encouragement here, since people here play by the rules.

 

Plus, if you don't like the answer you get from CustServ, ask again until you get one you do.  They're nothing if not hideously inconsistent.  Though, to be fair, they've got better on that score recently, even if it's only changing to the mildly less cop-out-y 'ask your DM, we don't know' answer.

Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.

It should be noted that the Wizards support line is not actually run by Wizards or WOTC and has no access to anyone from Wizards to get more info.  They're a contracted call center and they basically look at the books and a list of questions they have previously gotten and try to figure out what the answer is. 

 

  I don't recall what the score was when Alcestis last posted it, but I think their success rate on simple Yes/No questions was something like 4%