Grabbing Rogue any good?

10 posts / 0 new
Last post
My GM loves the idea of us playing a short campaign where the entire party are rogues, or maybe even someone else running it so he can play.

I don't know more than that yet, and it might never happen, but I like thinking about it anyway so I'll have something ready. I wouldn't even know if we'd be allowed to Hybrid, or what sort of level it might be...

Anyway, I figured with 4/5 rogues in a party that at least 1 of them will be using a dagger, at least 1 a rapier, at least 1 a bow, etc, but I wanted to make something a bit different to stand out. To that end I came across the Garrotte stuff, and thought it'd be cool to have a Garrotte rogue.

Attempting to make a level 1 rogue I started thinking Half Orc (Bugbear would never be allowed), but Human just seems much better, especially with the extra feat and +1 to all non AC defenses.

The trouble I was having is that as a Rogue I don't want to have too low a Dex, I think I could possibly get away with a 14, especially since I'll not actually attack with rogue powers until i've got a grab and therefore Combat Advantage. I usually think that at level 1 with weapon attacks you're wanting to look at a +6 as a minimum, +4 stat and +2 weapon or +3 stat and +3 weapon, with +7 being more normal, and +8 being "good". With a +2 stat, +3 weapon prof and +2 CA, that's +7, so not too bad (although obviously a rogue with CA usually expects more...)
As a rogue I get +2 Reflex, so with a 20/14 Str/Dex human, I have a Fort of 10+1(Human)+5(Str) = 16, and a reflex of 10+1(Human)+2(Dex)+2(Rogue) = 15.

How bad an idea do you think that is? Maybe should be a 18/16 Str/Dex instead? But I'm worried about my Fort being too low, and people being able to escape...

I did think as well that going Hybrid with a Fighter for Brawling Style might be a good idea, and the feat that forces them to roll against my Fort (it'd be so much easier if I could force them to roll against my Reflex as a rogue!), but then it seems to move more and more from a Rogue into a Fighter with some Rogue powers... which isn't what I want.

Are there any good Garrotte builds for Rogues on the site that I haven't been able to find? Or is it 100% of the time on this board (Optimization) grabbing is for Fighters only?
Just going to point out that a party of strikers wins by focus firing. Rogues are 3-4 round strikers. That means nothing will live long enough for you to do any damage at all because you'll grab it and then it'll die to your party members. At best you'll get one grab and one attack... so you'll only be doing 1/3 the damage of everyone else (I'd say 1/2 but realistically your weapon choice is not well supported and will hinder your DPR even more). This would not be fun to play because you'd be ridiculously ineffective. It isn't even like you'd be contributing something unique and useful, Rogues have great daze/prone/immoblize potential and a prone+dazed opponent you can move away from or an immobilized one you can move away from is straight up less threatening then something you have to continue to stand next to.

To answer your specific question of "How bad an idea do you think that is?" Answer: Very.

Grab is pretty retarded on its own (for a variety of reasons) and the only class that has a feature to support it is one Fighter build. Hence why all the grabbers are Fighters.
Damn, you're right, I never thought about that!

Guess it's back to the Half Orc spamming Riposte with a Rapier until I think of something better...
An entire party of Rogues is going to be very fragile.  You may want to talk with the group and allow hybrids at the very least, or open up the character requirements in general.  I am making the assumption that 'everybody must be a rogue' is meaning something like a Thieves' Guild game when I say this, but just as being a rogue doesn't mean you're a thief, being a thief doesn't mean you have to be a rogue.  Anybody can steal.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Assassins should be allowed too IMO ;D
Assassins should be allowed too IMO ;D



Any character with the appropriate skill set and motivations should be allowed.  You can pick up Stealth or Thievery with a background or feat (multiclass or just Skill Training).
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
An entire party of Rogues is going to be very fragile.  You may want to talk with the group and allow hybrids at the very least, or open up the character requirements in general.  I am making the assumption that 'everybody must be a rogue' is meaning something like a Thieves' Guild game when I say this, but just as being a rogue doesn't mean you're a thief, being a thief doesn't mean you have to be a rogue.  Anybody can steal.



He's mentioned a few times something along the lines of "I think a game where everyone is a rogue would be cool, lots of sneaking around and traps. I'd be fun if the entire party has to beat an encounter in 2 or 3 rounds or they'd be in a lot of trouble."

So it could just be something he thinks is cool, and will never do, but if he did say we'd play a short /one shot campaign like this I'd want a good idea already what I'd do. It could be he'd allow anyone trained in Thievery and/or Stealth regardless of class, it could be he'd allow Rogues+Assassins+any class you could force into a Thief role easily. It could be he'd only allow PHB + both Martial Powers, I dunno...

After I was rightly shot down I started thinking about a Githzerai Brutal Scoundral Rogue using a Bastard Sword

Assassins should be allowed too IMO ;D



Any character with the appropriate skill set and motivations should be allowed.  You can pick up Stealth or Thievery with a background or feat (multiclass or just Skill Training).



If we do do this, it'll be "Rogues or Assassins", including hybrids, so there is alot of scope.

Currently leaning towards an Executioner, looking at melee for the Garrotte attack, which as far as I can see is a better version of Piercing Strike, although I'm slightly confused if I can the extra damage of Attack Finesse if I sustain the grab... Also thinking of going for Revenant, with Gensai to pick up Void Assumption, but I dunno yet.

Anyway after discussing it a bit, the idea is more a mechanical "Bunch of fast guys that nuke everyone turn 1" than a roleplaying thieves thing.

This is a Hybrid Fighter/Rogue that I made.  It was actually pretty fun with my group and was able to control things fairly well.  The suggestions I would make, and that I did in game would be to drop Garrote and just use a light blade in one hand.  The goliath's belt lets you grab Huge creatures, and I stuck to mainly rogue attack powers because hybrids can only sneak attack with their rogue powers, which makes the fighter stuff less useful.  I originally took the Fighter feat to only target Fort to Escape, but with this build my reflex and fort are close enough that it wouldn't matter. 

There are some Ebon Gauntlets from a Dragon article that when a creature fails to escape your grab it does 5 necrotic damage and you heal 5 damage.

Drop Garrote Training for some other feat
Switch Master at Arms to Light Blade Expertise


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Vara Kaimi, level 17
Human, Fighter/Rogue, Paragon Hybrid
Hybrid Talent Option: Fighter Combat Talent
Fighter Combat Talent Option: Brawler Style (Hybrid)
Paragon Hybrid Talent Option: Rogue Tactics (Hybrid)
Rogue Tactics (Hybrid) Option: Brutal Scoundrel (Hybrid)
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-Will Power
Occupation - Hired Killer (+2 to Stealth)
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 11, DEX 22, INT 9, WIS 14, CHA 12
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 10, DEX 16, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 11
 
 
AC: 31 Fort: 32 Ref: 33 Will: 25
HP: 104 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 26
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +19, Bluff +14, Endurance +13, Perception +15, Stealth +21, Thievery +19
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +7, Athletics +13, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +10, History +7, Insight +10, Intimidate +9, Nature +10, Religion +7, Streetwise +9
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Rogue Attack 1: Deft Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Footwork Lure
Rogue Attack 1: Piercing Strike
Fighter Utility 2: Forceful Drag
Fighter Attack 3: Slamming Rush
Fighter Attack 5: Agonizing Assault
Rogue Utility 6: Ignoble Escape
Rogue Attack 7: Sand in the Eyes
Rogue Attack 9: Knockout
Rogue Utility 10: Combat Tumbleset
Rogue Utility 10: Peripheral Concealment
Rogue Attack 13: Stunning Strike
Rogue Attack 15: Garrote Grip
Fighter Utility 16: Painful Drag
Rogue Attack 17: Surprising Assault
 
FEATS
Paragon Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Garrote Training
Level 2: Backstabber
Level 4: Superior Fortitude
Level 6: Superior Reflexes
Level 8: Master at Arms
Level 10: Pin Down
Level 11: Crushing Pin
Level 12: Defensive Advantage
Level 14: Expert Sneak
Level 16: Fleet-Footed
 
ITEMS
Summoned Feyleather Armor +4 x1
Defensive Garrote +3 x1
Amulet of Protection +4 x1
Goliath's Belt (heroic tier) x1
Hidden Dagger +1
Darkskull (heroic tier)
Skeleton Key (heroic tier)
Exodus Knife (paragon tier)
Adventurer's Kit
Climber's Kit
Flask (empty)
Oil (1 pint)
Thieves' Tools
Waterskin
Planar Stasis Boots (paragon tier) x1
====== End ======
This is a Hybrid Fighter/Rogue that I made.

Yeah, Fighter|Rogue is definitely a good way to go.

You can look at Mr. Stupid in my .sig for a similar build I made.

Give him a long, long look. He's purdy.