7/22/2011 LD: "On Repeat"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Latest Developments, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.

For me at least, the reason I am disappointed to see the Titans again has nothing to do with the SCG Opens letting the environment be "solved" faster and faster.

I hate the Titans because they are horribly designed. Their prescence obsoletes almost every other creature a deck could play from 5 mana upwards, and their stats dominate any board into which they are (relatively easily) played while their citp abilites can create crushing card advantage even if you remove them immediately (which lets hope you do, because if they survive to attack your chance of victory drops significantly.

When nearly every finisher in decks that want one comes from the same cycle of undercosted Mythics, it becomes difficult to greet their return with enthusiasm.
Titans I'm fine with. Primeval was the biggest offender, but its gas will be rotating and it will simply become an affordable EDH staple.

The M10-12 lands I'm not so okay with. The fact that allied fetches and shocks have never been reprinted is a shame.
I voted no on both to be honest. I really want either the Ravnica Duals (Temple Garden etc) at rare or failing that, the uncommon enters the battlefield tapped lands. I want every pack I open to have an exiting rare, and Glacial Fortress and its ilk just don't do it for me anymore. At least if we had uncommon duals they wouldn't take up a rare slot.

On the subject of Titans, I hate them. They are too efficient, and completely distort the power curve. Personally I don't think they should have been printed at all, let alone re-printed. Every experience I have had with them has been bad, whether playing with them or against them. I either felt like I was cheating or being cheated. They don't make for fun play.
Their prescence obsoletes almost every other creature a deck could play from 5 mana upwards...

At the very least, Yavimaya Wurm was dropped from M12!

The titans I'm torn on.  They are the default "Best Creature" in each colour, but there would always be a "go-to" big creature in each colour.  A few decks would rather run Wurmcoil Engine over most of the titans.  I think the only reason they get such attention is because they are all from the same set and even the same cycle.  If they had been spread out between 2-4 sets, I don't think there would be as much hate.  

As for the M10 dual lands, my issue with them is that there are other good lands that are just as simplistic and well designed.  A similar set of lands, but for enemy colours, would more than satisfy the demand.  
I haven't been able to answer a poll in ages, but this one I really want to answer, so I'm posting.

Titans - Not happy to see them back. As already mentioned by Zoomba, they're far too powerful for their cost. They illustrate everything I hate about Mythic Rares: get to break the power curve that other rarities must follow, really expensive to obtain because of high demand and low supply, and absolute DECIMATE Limited games in which they show up. When we first got Mythic Rares, we were promised they wouldn't be tournament staples. The Titans definitely break that promise.

Dual Lands - Definitely happy to see them back. I am not a fan of rare duals, because it means that they're expensive and I, as a budget player, cannot afford them for my decks. The printing of the same duals every year neatly solves this problem. The ones I'm lucky to open in a booster will still be playable years later, and eventually they'll be cheap enough to afford on my budget.
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Can we please get the polls' code working again? 768 replies means it's obviously not saving responses; they used to get an order of magnitude more. When I answer, it doesn't give me the confirmation text below the button like it previously did.

My responses would be: I wish Titans hadn't been reprinted because they're a totally boring type of good card; obviously just undercosted for the heck of it, only "situational" in the loosest sense... it's like bringing the helplessness of facing bomby Limited cards into Constructed, while accidentally ruining lots of drafts whenever they appear.

And I like the M10 duals. I think they should be reprinted forever and be the baseline source of color-fixing nonbasics for allied-color decks. They're great; I don't care if their value goes down to $0.25; and I wish I had dozens of each.
Frankly I'm glad that the Titans and Dual Land cycle are both back for another spin.

The titans have an interesting mini-meta and they have never really dominated the competitive scene the way cards such as Stoneforge Mystic did. They are also six mana to cast, which means that you need to get to the late game to use them. The exception to this is probably Primeval Titan, being in green and being in the same environment as Valakut. However, it will be interesting to see it's role after October.

People complain that the Praetors won't see play while the titans exist, but was anyone really planning on casting a Jin-Gitaxis in the current standard environment? Elesh Norn also made an appearance in the Japanese Nationals Top 8.

As for the dual lands, they are simple and elegant and deserve to continue to see play. I for one am also glad I don't need to shell out for a whole new set of lands to replace the standard mana base I already have.

I think most peoples complaints stem from two things.

1. People get excited by new things.

2. Opening rares that you already have 4 or more of can be dissapointing.

I'm sure if these cycles had been replaced there would be a whole different set of complaints about the greed of WOTC, and chase cards rotating too quickly.

You can't please all the people all the time, so please just keep making an excellent game.


TLDR Version - The repeating cycles are fine. People don't know what they really want and will forget about it by October.
The titans I'm torn on.  They are the default "Best Creature" in each colour, but there would always be a "go-to" big creature in each colour.  A few decks would rather run Wurmcoil Engine over most of the titans.  I think the only reason they get such attention is because they are all from the same set and even the same cycle.  If they had been spread out between 2-4 sets, I don't think there would be as much hate. 


I don't think that's the case. If Wizards does their job well and balances cards, there shouldn't be a default go-to big creature in each color. Also, I don't think them being spread out would negate their obvious superiority. Planeswalkers are spread out and everyone still knows they're the best cards out there, with some exceptions.
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I clicked "yes" to the titans, but I really have pretty mixed feelings about the whole deal. I'm happy that their price dropped, since I still don't have 4x Grave Titan, but it's annoying that an entire cycle of oppressively powerful cards is going to be around for 27 months (a full ten months longer than jace was, btw). There's a ton of really cool cards being surpressed by titans, and we'll never know how good any of them really are.

As for the dual lands, I clicked "no," but I'm so close to no opinion that I might as well have clicked that. I think I would have been happier with new lands, but I'm definitely not unhappy with M10 reprints. They're fine cards that do their job without being too good (like, imo, the man-duals). I think 2-3 years is the right amount of time for them, with a very real option to revisit them for a year or so later for nostalgia. (possibly even at uncommon. *gasp*!)
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I'm happy that the land cycle was reprinted.  I think they are well designed and easy for newcomers to understand (which is a good thing for a core set.)  I wouldn't mind if they were reprinted as a staple cycle in each core set for the foreseeable future.  I would like to see them reduced to uncommon, however.  It would make them even easier to acquire, although I don't know what effect that would have on limited.


The Titan cycle I'm more torn about.  On one hand, I like the cards.  They're fun creatures to play with and I enjoy creature cycles.  Reprinting them will increase supply and lower prices, so that's a good thing.  The only thing I don't like is that they are so powerful, they obsolete a lot of other fatty creatures that might have seen play otherwise.  I see many creatures from SOM block (the Praetors and Chancellors, for example) that just might have been playable in standard, but since they rotate at the same time as M12, they may never get their time in the spotlight.

I guess it's a toss up for the Titans.  Personally, I'm kind of glad that they were reprinted, as I wasn't able to buy very much M11.  I might actually get a Titan or two now!  Smile
I'm a little ambivalent towards the reprinting of the titans because I mostly play blue.  But reprinting mythics is a meta-call and it should always be so.  Tom is right about a lot of things.  I was a lapsed player that returned for the M10 set and was pleased to find some fimiliar faces (cards) to return to.  A little continuity goes a long way for stability.  The titans situation would have went the same way if they weren't to be reprinted...it's just that close of a call.

As for the dual lands, I whole-heartedly agree that these should have been reprinted and I hope that wizards continue to do so.  They are so clean, simple and elegant and just scream 'core'.  I can see one of the core sets going with a larger print run (like tenth) and do the enemy cycle but for now these should stay.  What's the alternative?...Wizards coming up with new ways every year for the dual-cycle to essentially do the same thing? 

Overall, good job Tom and I will continue to buy your product.

I hate the Titans because they are horribly designed. Their prescence obsoletes almost every other creature a deck could play from 5 mana upwards, and their stats dominate any board into which they are (relatively easily) played while their citp abilites can create crushing card advantage even if you remove them immediately (which lets hope you do, because if they survive to attack your chance of victory drops significantly.



First of all they aren't "relatively easily"(sic.) played as can be eveidence by the number of aggro decks winning in the new format.

Secondly, the fact that we are seeing cards like Corrupted Sphinx, Elesh Norn and Wurmcoil Engine also appearing alongside the Titans in Top 8's at the moment says to me that they aren't the snap inclusions many make them out to be.
I would like to see them reduced to uncommon, however.  It would make them even easier to acquire, although I don't know what effect that would have on limited.



It wouldn't do too much in limited, other than take up pack space and make splashing a little easier for non-green, which wizards seems to be okay with. They're not very high picks at rare, and they won't show up in enough volume at uncommon to really warp the format.
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Tom, it's clear you have excellent taste in music. If only there was a way to put 'Daft Punk Is Playing At My House' as a header somewhere in the article ;)
You'll forget you ever read this the minute you look away.
Veslfen's House of Bone-Dry Sarcasm
88318561 wrote:
76783093 wrote:
there is nothing "epic" about a turn one victory. ever. or really any magic game, for that matter.
So this one time, I wanted to play a game of Magic with my friend, but he was in another country and neither of us had Magic Online. I hitchhiked my way to the coast, barely fending off hungry wildlife when I couldn't get a ride, nearly dying of thirst crossing deserts, and posoning myself half to death foraging for food. At one point, I was taken hostage by a group of kidnappers, only managing to escape after a week of careful planning thanks to careful application of a rusty spoon. Once I reached the coast, I had no money to buy a ticket across the ocean, so I built a boat using my own two hands, and spent months sailing across the waves, nearly losing my deck as I swam to the shore of a desert island in a storm after being capsized by an enormous wave. Nearly delusional after so long with no human contact (the notches I cut in the single tree to tell time had long since felled the thing) I was eventually rescued by a passing ship, where I was taken aboard as a crew member. We sailed around the world, seeing many exotic places and having great adventures, before we finally arrived at my friend's country. Once more I stumbled across a desolate landscape, riding on train or car when I could, and going on foot when I could not. Eventually, weary to the bone, seven years after I started my journey, I arrived at my friend's house, clutching my well-worn and weathered deck to my chest. We shuffled up our decks, I won the roll. Gleefully, I laid down my cards. Black Lotus. My friend looked quizzically at me, wondering what I was about to do. After so long, he no longer knew what deck I had brought with me to this game. Flash. A knowing smile appears on my friend's face as the knowledge slowly returns to him. Protean Hulk. My friend extends his hand, knowing the game is over before it even started. And finally, after so many trials, the sweet taste of victory is mine.
56866178 wrote:
108166749 wrote:
So no one else is upset with the stunt Wizards just pulled to drive sales?
Drive sales of what? Non-Jace, non-Mystic cards? I'm pretty sure people already own more than eight Magic cards. If you don't, I feel for you. Maybe you can trade those Stoneforge Mystics, which are still quite valuable, for some.
I enjoyed this article very much. In fact, I'm going to read it ... one more time!
I normally quite like your articles, Tom, but I feel you dropped the ball here by not even acknowledging the most common complaint about the Titans: they're blatantly overpowered even compared to other recent bomb creatures.

Look, I recognize that whether Magic is undergoing power creep, and what that term even means, are touchy issues. It is clear that creatures are far more powerful than they were five years ago; this, we know, was intentional, as Wizards felt that creatures weren't relevant enough in constructed play. Some may disagree with this move, but I'm sure most everyone can see where those feelings were coming from and why Wizards might have wanted to change that, and so a gradual controlled increase in the power of creatures was a reasonable move to make.

However, the Titans, when first released, were seen by many (myself not included as I was taking a break from the game when M11 came out) as having gone a step too far with that. I agree with this assessment; Baneslayer Angel was already pushing it, but this cycle of six-drops that make almost every other six-drop in the game's history look bad — even the blue one is better than most fatties in the colours that are supposed to be good at fatties — just seems unnecessary: you'd already achieved your goal of making fatties relevant in tournament play, so why make them even more powerful? It seems that the only reason is to make them and the set containing them look really impressive, which sounds very close to the traditional definition of power creep.

In Aaron Forsythe's article about the Standard bannings, he admitted that there was a degree of power creep going on with the Alara and Zendikar blocks, and that attempts had been made to tone it down a degree with Scars of Mirrodin. Indeed, there was nothing in Scars block anywhere near as offensive as cascade or Jace, and I'm thankful for that. The thing is, though, that in my mind — and I'm not alone here — the Titans were part of that power issue, too, and I expect a few of us assumed that the Titans were included in Aaron's assessment that pre-Scars recent sets were somewhat overpowered. Their return in M12 suggests that Wizards disagrees that there's a problem with their power level, and that rather than any desire for change for change's sake is the reason why people complained about it.

Also, please don't cut Mana Leak from M13 unless you put in Rune Snag or something.

Edit: Oh, right, the dual lands. As long as a cycle of good duals is in the core set, I don't really care which one it is. But would it kill you to include enemy duals again? I don't mind allied colours getting duals more often than enemies, but I really feel there should be at least one cycle of (playable) enemiy duals in Standard at all times. I suppose that's technically the fetches right now, but if Innistrad doesn't bring anything to replace them I will sadface.
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I'm not happy the Titans are back for the simple reason that they aren't fun to play against.  Resolving one is too easy and too big of a blowout for 6 mana.  I suppose it's fine in the context of higher tier constructed decks, where they're strong but not dominant, but in Limited, they completely suck, and in casual, they ruin games and they ruin players.  Cards shouldn't do as much as the Titans do on their own.

I'm happy the lands are back, because it's nice not to have to deal with reacquiring the entirety of your mana base for every Standard season.  I'd be happier if more interesting lands were printed on a consistent basis (shocklands!), but barring that, any land that does the job is better to be printed multiple times than any land that isn't a reprint.  Constantly getting new duals is tiresome.  (And incidentally, is there honestly any good reason for keeping them rare?  If they were uncommon, people might actually get to take a few in limited for mana-fixing purposes instead of just having them get raredrafted every time.  I honestly can't fathom the point of making lands that do nothing but make decks play more smoothly hard to obtain.)

Oh, and lastly, staple cards like Lightning Bolt and Mana Leak, that fill a particular role better than anything, are fine to print once in a while, but I totally support moving them around from time to time.  Not every Standard needs to have access to the best red burn ever made, nor some of the best 2cc countermagic, but it's fun to see what happens when it does.  As long as Lightning Bolt is destined to come back again some day, I'm not sorry to see it go.
This is from the perspective of an exclusive Eternal player (psyched for Modern!), so that definitely changes my opinions, though I do keep track of happenings in Standard.

The Titans I feel shouldn't have been reprinted, and largely because of the point you bring up, Tom. With formats being solved at possibly triple the speed as years past, oppressive creatures like the Titan cycle will suppress other finishers substantially, especially with them being so undercosted. As creatures they were well designed (EtB triggers were fantastic ideas for card advantage, especially considering the presense of Jace), if a bit above the curve. The problem, however, is that with the Titans almost always being the best option, and with players knowing this after only a few weeks or months of testing, future sets become that much less desireable because we already have a subset of the "best" cards (that isn't to say you can't put great things in future sets, but when it comes to creatures, the Titans are simply the best and we all know it).

I don't like the presence of the M10 duals in this set however, at all. I wholeheartily agreed with their return in M11, largely because two consecutive sets felt appropriate and gave a decent amount of stability (not to mention it felt reminiscent of the two-year legal "th" cores), which is what many want. One of the greatest boons to the core set now, however, is that now you have the luxury of change. It isn't exclusively reprints anymore, and we all know it. There are many great land designs that haven't been explored yet (particlarly lands involving basic land types), and even if reprints are wanted, those 5 (or 10) rare slots could be occupied by something significantly more exiting, like Ravnica shock lands or Onslaught fetch lands, or even Shadowmoor filter lands. With such a significant amount of booster pack "real estate" occupied by what are, at this point, unexiting bulk rares, the set is that much less exiting to me as a whole, and its certainly less exiting to any given standard player.

Since Standard isn't a format I play too consistently, I suppose I'm a part of an audience that is significantly harder to impress. I will say, though, that even to me M12 looked significantly worse than its predecessors (which is a sign that you guys are doing something right with the core; keep it up), and perhaps you should reconsider what is easily reprintable. I'm not sure how far R&D works ahead--chances are M13 has probably already been submitted to Development--but I do hope that in the future Wizards considers the new context in which cards are printed, and how much more we as players are working with new cards.

Good job overall, though, here's to a better M13.
@carrionpigeons: Duals being rare is just tradition from the originals back in Alpha, I guess. It's always seemed odd to me as well. There have been cycles of uncommon or even common multilands, but they appear much less often than rare ones.

At least with modern set sizes and rarity distributions, rare duals are $2 to $5 instead of $10 to $20 like they used to be...
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I hate the titans because really, they are a senseless cycle that tends to offer a really good benifit with no downside. In the past, these creatures would have been 9 cc for what they do. While I am not really saying they should *be* that price range, the cycle aspect really irritates me. Why couldn't they have been expressed in a different fashion? We'll still complain about them, but Titans is such a dull and innappropriate term flavor-wise.

I much rather just get rid of the bloody things and replace it with something more fun
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Since we are on the subject of repeats, what the heck has happened to Elves in 2012 Core? Elves were finally starting to make some inroads into being a viable possibility in Standard. There were still very few Elf decks competative in the Meta, but they made the list and even on rare occassion managed to win some high level tournaments.

Then 2012 comes a long and all we have for core Elves is Elvish Archdruid, Llanowar Elves and a 1/1 with Hexproof?

It really seems like you guys want to severely limit the number of viable standard tourney builds, rather than increasing the options.

By contrast, look at what 2012 core has done for Goblins and Vampires. More power and more choices.

Also, after really getting into the set and having the cards in hand, I'm really frustrated how many cards made the set that aren't even viable for casual play. What is the point of printing junk cards that are not only plain creatures, but have horrible ratios for power/toughness to CMC? It's a waste of paper, artwork and really cheapens the value of the set.

A final peeve is what the set has done for Green, in general, which is basically nothing. Primeval Titan and Garruk, Primeval Hunter do not make up for the lack of appeal for green in the current set. I'm a little tired of Green having no value in the meta beyond Ramp. We get the arguement that "Green is about big creatures and we don't want to dilute that by adding x,y,z to the color". Well, in the current Standard, other colors have creatures just as big and much meaner because of the plethora of specials the other colors possess. Green has not kept pace with the inflation of creatures in other colors. Looking back at green cards from the first half decade of Magic, it's also clear that you've actually neutered the focus of green into a much narrower range than it possessed in the original design for the game.

Overall, I'm very disappointed with the design of the 2012 Core set. Some colors and strategies seem to have received help where none was needed, while areas that have been suffering continue to suffer or fall to new lows.
In the past, these creatures would have been 9 cc for what they do.

...and be completely unplayable outside of reanimator shenanigans.

I think it's great that creatures have finally been radically adjusted upwards after seventeen years of mostly sucking.  Now, let's be rid of the rest of the chaff they've left behind.
Nine mana is a bit much, but as six-mana 5/5s or seven-mana 6/6s, they'd have been good without making cards like Sphinx of Jwar Isle look like complete chumps.
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@carrionpigeons: Duals being rare is just tradition from the originals back in Alpha, I guess. It's always seemed odd to me as well. There have been cycles of uncommon or even common multilands, but they appear much less often than rare ones.

At least with modern set sizes and rarity distributions, rare duals are $2 to $5 instead of $10 to $20 like they used to be...


Shame that when in M2010 they went about taking a second look at things they'd been doing just out of tradition (like Zombies as the Black characteristic race and the no-new-cards core set policy) and changed them, the rarity of dual lands was not one of the changes.

If anything it's now less exciting than ever to open a dual land for your rare. At least in the past it meant the booster pack had just paid for itself. Now even that's not always the case. It's just an unexciting card in place of what should be your splashy build-around-me or game-winner. Seriously, can we get an article, or at least a blurb in one, explaining why Dual Lands have to be Rare? The karoos may have been pushing it at common, though it certainly made a budget player like me excited to finally be able to build a consistent two-color deck, but what's wrong with uncommon?
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i think the issue is that the M sets are becoming like the core sets before them. they are more of the same. as players we like things that are new and exciting. what was redeeming about the old core sets was that they only were printed every 2 years towards the end. I see no reason why we cant change the window of legality to 24 months, and only print a new M set every 2 years with the new one knocking out the old one. have the turnover point be july not october, and at that point every set printed before the previous july rotates out. then you have the one free set every 2 years to try something new and fun with.
I'm fine with the Titans because I couldn't care less about Standard, and having them reprinted will make their price drop, making people complain less about it.

I'm fine with the lands because they are simple and efficient. However, I'd be inf avor of bringing back the refuges from Zendikar in the same rarities they were printed, uncommon, and also the creation of refuges for opposed color pairs. This would be fantastic for all the budget players that want cheap manafixing.
OMG click HERE! OMG! How to autocard and use decklist format
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57817638 wrote:
I like storm crow because I really like crows in real life, as an animal, and the card isn't terribly stupid, but packs a good deal of nostalgia and also a chunck of the game's history. So it's perhaps one of the cards I have most affection to, but not because "lol storm crow is bad hurr hurr durr".
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Quotes
56747598 wrote:
57295478 wrote:
Although I do assume you deliberately refer to them (DCI) as The Grand Imperial Convocation of Evil just for the purposes of making them sound like an ancient and terrible conspiracy.
Now, now. 1994 doesn't quite qualify as "ancient".
56734518 wrote:
Oh, it's a brilliant plan. You see, Bolas was travelling through shadowmoor, causing trouble, when he saw a Wickerbough Elder with its stylin' dead scarecrow hat. Now, Bolas being Bolas took the awesome hat and he put it on his head, but even with all his titanic powers of magic he couldn't make it fit. He grabbed some more scarecrows, but then a little kithkin girl asked if he was trying to build a toupee. "BY ALL THE POWERS IN THE MULTIVERSE!" he roared, "I WILL HAVE A HAT WORTHY OF MY GLORY." and so he went through his Dark Lore of Doom (tm) looking for something he could make into a hat that would look as stylish on him as a scarecrow does on a treefolk. He thought about the Phyrexians, but they were covered in goopy oil that would make his nonexistant hair greasy. He Tried out angels for a while but they didn't sit quite right. Then, he looked under "e" (because in the Elder Draconic alphabet, "e" for Eldrazi is right next to "h" for Hat) in his Dark Lore of Doom and saw depictions of the Eldrazi, and all their forms. "THIS SHALL BE MY HAT!" he declared, poking a picture of Emrakul, "AND WITH IT I WILL USHER IN A NEW AGE OF DARKNESS -- ER, I MEAN A NEW AGE OF FASHION!" And so Nicol Bolas masterminded the release of the Eldrazi.
57864098 wrote:
Rhox War Monk just flips pancakes, and if games have told us anything, it's that food = life.
56747598 wrote:
76973988 wrote:
This thread has gotten creepy. XP
Really? Really? The last couple days have been roughly every perverse fetish imaginable, but it only got "creepy" when speculation on Mother of Runes's mob affiliation came up?
76672808 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
57531048 wrote:
Nice mana base. Not really.
Yeah, really. If my deck was going to cost $1000+, I'd at least make it good.
99812049 wrote:
I like to think up what I consider clever names for my decks, only later to be laughed at by my wife. It kills me a little on the inside, but thats what marriage is about.
56816728 wrote:
56854588 wrote:
Of course, the best use [of tolaria west] is transmuting for the real Tolaria. ;)
Absolutely. I used to loose to my buddy's Banding deck for ages, it was then that I found out about Tolaria, and I was finally able win my first game.
70246459 wrote:
WOAH wait wait wait
56957928 wrote:
You know, being shallow and jusdgmental aside, "I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
"I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates
56957928 wrote:
OH MY GOD
109874309 wrote:
The only way I'd cast this card is into a bonfire.
82032421 wrote:
The short answer is that there's no rule barring annoying people from posting, but there a rule barring us from harassing them about it.
56747598 wrote:
Browbeat is a card that is an appropriate deck choice when there's no better idea available. "No better idea available" was pretty much the running theme of Odyssey era.
56874518 wrote:
Or perhaps it was a more straightforward comment indicating a wish for you to be bitten (Perhaps repeatedly) by a small yet highly venomous arachnid.
70246459 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
You're an idiot, and I'm in no mood for silliness.
57817638 wrote:
57145078 wrote:
You just... Vektor it.
That's the answer to everything.
70246459 wrote:
58347268 wrote:
I think the problem is that you don't exist.
This would sound great out of context!
56965458 wrote:
Modern is like playing a new tournament every time : you build a deck, you win with it, don't bother keeping it. Just build another, its key pieces will get banned.
57864098 wrote:
57309598 wrote:
I specifically remember posting a thread when I was just a witty bitty noob.
You make it sound like that's still not the case.
58325628 wrote:
Rap is what happens when the c from crap is taken away.
Doug Beyer:
But sometimes it's also challenging. Because sometimes OH MY GOD, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING?
141434757 wrote:
Flashforward five thousand years (Click for atmosphere) :
57927608 wrote:
to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum, Vektor finds a way.
58347268 wrote:
when in rome **** AND PILLAGE
143229641 wrote:
I always find it helpful when im angry to dress up in an owl costume and rub pennies all over my body in front of a full body mirror next to the window.
Dymecoar:
Playing Magic without Blue is like sleeping without any sheets or blankets. You can do it...but why?
Omega137:
Me: "I love the moment when a control deck stabilizes. It feels so... right." Omega137: "I like the life drop part until you get there, it's the MtG variant of bungee jumping"
Zigeif777:
Just do it like Yu-Gi-Oh or monkeys: throw all the crap you got at them and hope it works or else the by-standers (or opponents) just get dirty and pissed.
57471038 wrote:
58258708 wrote:
It's true that Alpha and Beta didn't contain any cards like Tarmogoyf, Darksteel Colossus, or Platinum Angel. It just contained weak, insignificant cards like Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, and Time Walk.
Normally it's difficult to pick up on your jokes/sarcasm. But this one's pretty much out there. Good progress. You have moved up to Humanoid. You'll be Human in no time.
91893448 wrote:
94618431 wrote:
I didn't know Samurai were known to be able to cut down whole armies...
They can when they're using lightsabers!
57129358 wrote:
97980259 wrote:
My wife brought home a baby black squirrel they found on a horse track and cared for it for a few days. We named it Grixis, but it died.
Unearth it!
70246459 wrote:
[/spoiler] And I'm on Magic Arcana. How about you? Oh, by the way, I'm also on From the Lab now. Twice, actually. And now with my own submited decklist!

I HATE the fact that titans got reprinted.  Hate it.  The problem is that they're too good... they're just so much better than everything else and they don't make interesting games of magic.  Playing with huge creatures is fun when they don't win the game on the spot.  Primeval titan turn 4 fetch 2 valakuts untap hey you're dead.  Wow how fun is that.  It says a lot when a r/g ramp deck is despised by the magic community and hardly anyone complains about the true u/r instant kill combo deck(splinter twin).  People like playing magic where they actually interact and do things and it's beyond stupid when the 6 drops are so overthe top powerful that most people concede when they hit the table.

Staple reprints on the other hand I think are good.  Cards that people want to have access to when they build decks like mana leak, elite vanguard, birds of paradise, day of judgement, LIGHTNING BOLT, lands, etc.  Those are the cards people are happy to always have in standard.  They're familiar deck building tools that are convenient to have.

Once again, I absolutely hate this new design of 6 drops.  You basically can't play normal agro or midrange decks anymore because the 6 drops are just stupidly powerful to the point where you can't win unless you play control or super rush agro.  They're basically the uninteractive combo decks of current magic... inferno titan kill your 3 guys.... oh hey you journey it?  Untap, acidic slime your journey GG.  So fun.  What a great way to play magic.  I love how you conveniently made dismember miss titans too.  Way to ruin the format tom lapille since you've came to wotc(lorwyn as far as I know) magic has gotten so much worse because you have no clue what you're doing.

I was very happy to see the titans reprinted (apparently I'm swimming against the forum tide here). I like playing with them, and I don't mind playing against them.

Considering how few titans showed up top 8 in either the recent SCG in Cincinnati or Nats in Japan, I don't really see how titans are broken. Most control lists seem to be running 1-3 as clean-up hitters, which puts them about on par with other finishing creatures from previous standards. Honestly, I think a lot of the people who bitch and moan about titans in casual play are working from the definition, "a casual deck is any deck that loses to mine, so if I'm losing to titans, it means they ruined casual."

I don't love the M10 duals. They've never felt rare to me, so I'd like to see them kicked to uncommon (and also filled out into enemy color duals).

I seem to be one of the few here so far that enjoy the fact that the titans and the lands were reprinted. I for one not haveing $25+ per titan at times kept hoping you'd bring them back, just so i could at least get a chance to play with them in standard. Same for the duals, sure much more easily atainable(sp :S) still having many deck ideas and well....could never really seem to have enough of those.

A friend in our playgroup was hoping to not see either again, and if any lands, enemy colors. i would have been fine with those as well i suppose, just as long as you printed dual lands, i would have been happy. :P

Another thing i noticed about most post so far is that they all are mentioning how they don't liek the titans as of now, and how they are played in the current standard enviroment. None of us know what lies in store for us in Inistrad(sp :S). Some get better (Vallakut rotating out) Primeaval becomes more green....and less....red/green. None of us know.....but for the next 3 months yes.....yes what everyone says here maybe true :P

Overall i think the set turned out great, and with many people always around our house learning how to play I think it's very good.
The first time i have actually posted on one of your topics, and all I have to say are good things. :P

I'm fine with the lands because they are simple and efficient. However, I'd be inf avor of bringing back the refuges from Zendikar in the same rarities they were printed, uncommon, and also the creation of refuges for opposed color pairs. This would be fantastic for all the budget players that want cheap manafixing.


The refuges were nice but I certainly wouldn't call them "fantastic" for manafixing. They have no chance of entering the battlefield untapped, which is essential for a good dual land. Aggro decks especially need untapped lands or they miss their curve and outright lose.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/c6f9e416e5e0e1f0a1e5c42b0c7b3e88.jpg?v=90000)
There's a huge problem with the Titans: They take up 5 Mythic Rare slots.

Looking at M12, what are the chase cards in this set.  Sure, we have new Garruk, Chandra, and Jace, but after that, the next most-chased after cards are, what, Visions from BeyondChandra's Phoenix?  There aren't a lot of cards in M12 that are exciting.  Having another 5 slots to spend on some other exciting Mythic Rare that's going to make me actually want to bust open some packs of M12 sounds much better.  Removing the Titans also probably makes cards like Rune-Scarred Demon and Sphinx of Uuthun much better and much more interesting, whereas right now they're just another creature that's probably not going to get played over the corresponding Titan.

I don't mind the lands (though I'm sure there are many other options in Magic) because they're fine duals that allow people to play 2 colors in Constructed.  Maybe they could have done something else in that slot, but what they did is fine, and I'd rather have Glacial Fortress and friends than some other worse cycle.  Uncommon is not the slot I want to see dual lands at, because a) those lands suck in Constructed and are only played when necessary and b) I think newer players opening a pack should learn that mana is important, and making these lands rare shows people that cards like these may not be as impressive as Grave Titan, but they're still important to have and they are powerful in their own right.
IMAGE(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8484/491165717146tj5.png)
I voted no for the titans, because, frankly, NPH was the first time I've been able to afford to play a competitive deck in the entire "mythic" era. (That deck being Phyrexian Sligh, which I consider a triumphant example of the little guy made up of cheap commons standing up to the mythic decks.)

Let me put it this way. How much money should a player be willing to spend on a Magic deck in order to stand a chance of winning a Standard tourney? Assuming "high" prices, if your answer was less than about $65, then you've messed up: that's what a deck made entirely of commons plus one playset of a tourney-worthy Mythic rare would cost. Name me the last archetype (aside from PhySligh) that played less than four mythics overall.

I voted yes to the lands. I'd rather see fetchs or shocks, but the former is too complex for the core set (you have no idea how often I have to explain to people in my playgroup that they don't suck) and the latter doesn't really feel like a core set include. But these? They're duals that encourage you to play with basic lands (feels very "core set") and shocks/betas (very "expert)!
On the CO IRC, generally as TorpedoFish.
Vain? Me? NEVER.
57223408 wrote:
You're the straightest shooter I know on these boards. You don't mince words about your opinions, and I respect that about you. The whole fiasco you described in the last State of the CO Forum was particularly enlightening (and kind of disappointing with regards to how they see us).
56868168 wrote:
Ah, Tsuyo. When your post isn't one sentence long full of asterisks, you have much wisdom to share with us .
From the IRC:
(19:52) RuinsFate: You know, I was gonna agree with something PalOn said... but I think I'm just gonna through my lot in with tsuyo's sudden train-wreck grade interjection. (01:45) Nausicaa: yes your rage is a righteous rage :D (01:45) Nausicaa: righteous rage of torpedo
My sci-fi writing.
It says a lot when a r/g ramp deck is despised by the magic community and hardly anyone complains about the true u/r instant kill combo deck(splinter twin). 




Yeah right, the magic community despised r / g ramp so much that they only stopped attending tournaments until a U / W control deck appeared and made said r / g deck unplayable. Only the handful of blue control snobs and magic writers despised valakut and when they do complain about it, they also mention splinter twin as the supposed only other playable deck (and where is the instant kill? Splinter twin can only be played at sorcery speed).

Once again, I absolutely hate this new design of 6 drops.  You basically can't play normal agro or midrange decks anymore because the 6 drops are just stupidly powerful to the point where you can't win unless you play control or super rush agro. 


Titans were fair at ALA-ZEN-M11 Standard. Valakut was only another deck of the bunch and the others weren't even staples. What really happened is that the power of the 3-4 drops plummeted brutally with Scars block. Cards like Bloodbraid elf, Knight of the reliquary and Sprouting Thrinax weren't replaced, so there was nothing useful for midrange to do on early turns. Currently, there seems to be a fix with cards like Blade Splicer and Hero of Bladehold, but they aren't enough. Restore the power of the middle drops and Titans are fair.

So yes I backup the reprint of the titans and congratulate LaPille for holding its decision this time. Having cards above $20 rotate in an almost yearly basis is quite oppressing for us players, and those complaining about not receiving new mythics are playing right upon this game. Titans are fine, as long as they are recoginized as the peak of the power creep. We have recently seen that cards above them can only end in bans, but Titans have two redeeming qualities for being mythics: 1)They aren't obligatory 4-ofs for decks, and many decks work well with only 2-3 copies and 2)With the exception of Primeval, which is going to lose its partner soon, Titans fit in a variety of decks without making a single one of them over the top.

 
If Limited gets in the way of printing good Constructed cards... Screw limited
Tom, yes im happy that both cycles were reprinted, but i believe that they have both lost there excitement. I think that might be cause we are being spoiled by new cards in core sets. We want both something new and exciting, yet we want something familar. It seems almost lose-lose to you with some people. As for me Im more interested with the answers to problem cards. It seems now that with the printing of o ring (which i hope is now a core set staple to be a powerful removal spell for powerful cards like titans and planeswalkers) that the banned cards seem less terrible. In AF's article he stated that sets need powerful anwswers to cards like JTMS. I agree. I believe you are all doing a great job and that magic is very fun right now. I love the last two draft formats. SoM-MBS-NPH and M12. M11 was very fun aswel.

Thank you for reading and one reprint i was glad to see again was harbor serpernt. its design is just so well. thank you again.
On one hand, I'm happy with the titans returning since it gives me another chance at getting them, and with them being such powerful cards, that is nice. On the other hand, they are very powerful cards, and as many people have said, probably a little good.

The duel lands are nice, but would have liked to see enemy lands. Also, I don't think many people are happy when the pull a rare land.
Wasn't happy to see Titans back. Before the spoilers for M12 I kept insisting to my clan mates that the Titans would not be making another appearance.

First, as has been mentioned, they're too efficient for their cost. Rarely will you see a deck curve out at anything other than a Titan. It breaks the fun for trying other things. People will argue that Wurmcoil Engine is seeing play, but it's almost always accompanied by a Titan.

Second, also pointed out, Wizards has said that mythics won't be tournament staples. Not such a big concern. I know some people don't like the idea, but mythics will make their way into decks regardless. After all, Planeswalkers are printed at Mythic and you won't see those leaving decks any time soon.

Third,  the creative team shouldn't be including cards "just because we wanted to fill the slot with familiarity". If they don't belong there, don't put them there. If we ignore the Planeswalkers, there was only two mythics (also ignoring Protean Hydra due to rarity drop) that carried over from M10 to M11, Baneslayer Angel and Platinum Angel. That's not exactly a long standing record of keeping familiarity in the mythic slot.

The duals being back is a good thing. Driving prices down on needed lands helps new and returning players put a foot in the door of competitive play without having to pay an arm and a leg. I'll use the Ravnica duals as an example.

I was coming back from a two year absence. RAV/TSP were the current legal blocks. Did my research on decks and had a good idea of what I would have liked to play. Get to the card shop to start picking up my singles and started looking at the prices. $18 for a single land? No way did I want to spend $80 on only 4/75 cards in the deck and certainly not on land. So what did I do? I ignored Magic for another year and came back once the lands would have rotated out.

Moral of the story? Efficient lands should be accessible or it'll alienate new and returning players. New and "exciting" lands shouldn't need to be printed in the core set when it has lands that are functionally sound and make sense in a core set. I don't know where people keep getting the idea that the Ravnica lands will ever make a return, in a core set no less. The rules on what the lands can and can't do confuse many new players and they have no place in a core set.
BAN THE TITANS!

They are overpowered and create a stranglehold on the format and everyone knows it.
I could not even justify playing the once super hard to aquire $50 Baneslayer angels a 5 drop... reprinting these was an absolute waste of value.
What chance do other cool 6 drops like Steel Hellkite or Massacre Wurm have... virtually a big fat zero!

Just to be clear I am not suggesting the titans should have been replaced with other cards that we would need to obtain to be competitive. There are already a bunch of awesome creatures that will unfortunately never see the light of day as long as cards like the titans oppress them.
This sets the standard for all competitive cards to NEED an enters the battlefield ability to be deemed playable and thats just bad for magic.

As for the lands if wizards refuses to give the players what they really want and need which is a complete reprint of all the Ravnica shock lands then at least an enemy color cycle of the M10 lands would have been exciting, different, and interesting.

The main reason formats like Overextended and Modern were created were to allow newer players that can not afford to play legacy, mostly due to the dual lands being on the reserved list, an opportunity to play a different eternal constructed format. The only way these newer players will support the new formats is if they have the lands they need to create whatever deck they want to play. If they do not want to reprint them in core sets thats fine as long as they reprint them soon.
I won't vote, because I see both glaring advantages and disadvantages.

Titans

Price-drop. This one I don't think I need to explain. And for those who bought them while they were high for playing purposes could at least play them for one more year (I assume they play standard in this scenario.)

Plenty of people are upset they ate up 5 Mythic Slots. But the article would have stated they would have simply be replaced by the likes of Baneslayer Angel, Platinum Angel, Demon of Death's Gate, Gaea's Revenge, which I believe most aren't cards that see widespread play nowadays. At least with the titans, your mythics have some value.

And for those saying that they should be replaced with new cards, the problem lies that the new cards are either disappointing (like above reprints mentioned) or are even more powerful, which drives the price of standard up.

The entire fault of the Titans is they were designed too efficiently. They don't obselete everything, but they obselete enough of them to kill diversity in finishers (short of each other). And green gets the shaft when it gets the arguably weakest titan (barring Valakut, P.Titan is technically weakest in a vaccum) and all the others have 6cc 6/6s, effective beatsticks (especially for the likes of blue.) 

The problem is the mistake is made. The prices are already set. They did the correct thing in reprinting the titans to drive prices down first. But after they have fallen, it would be time for the titans the leave the stage. Once everyone gets their desired titans for other formats (extended, EDH and so on...) standard needs to return to consisting of diversified finishers.

Core Lands (Or at least, what I call them)

They suffer the exact opposite problem. Fantastically designed. Problem now, that by 2 core sets, almost everyone has their playsets and those who don't can easily afford them. Once "staple" rares hit some bottomline, there's resistance to price dropping further. I doubt they would drop to 0.25 actually. There's some rock-bottom value everyone would agree that it would be there because simply "Its useful. If I should sell any lower, I'd rather keep a few extra playsets for my own use."

And then they're rare. Nobody wants to open a highly-price-suprressed-staple because everyone else already has it, even themselves.

Only two ways to edge this problem. One, stop reprinting them for at least a couple of years. The other, is to reprint them as uncommons. Before everyone who goes "HURRAH YOU ARE RIGHT THEY SHULD BE UNCOMMONS (and some others, reprint shocklands as uncommons too!)", I actually don't think they should do it until M14, funnily enough. They still hold some miniscule value which I think will vanquish the progress of M13. Come M14, as uncommons, they will help in dropping their prices to uncommon tier. It also frees up space for other new cycles. Magic is an innovative game, and the same duals staying all the time stagnant there is a no-no.

And they already made the stand that lands costing life won't be seen in Core Sets. So no Ally-Fetches (Or any fetches actually) or Shocklands, as much as we all wish so. I do hope WotC loses that mentality soon enough though. Life as a resource should be something taught to new players actually.

Other Stuff

Along with it, I think WotC should lax on Legendary Creatures. We have Planeswalkers with the same rulings mechanically, and already WotC are featuring stuff like Warstorm Surge (Immerstrum) and Vengeful Pharaoh (Which doesn't fit in most worlds, and none that we know of yet.)

I would say the same for multicolored cards. I think simple spells like Lightning Helix and stuff are actually great for teaching newbies about multicolor.   
Every decision is equally correct and incorrect.  I'm not sorry the Titans were reprinted.  Nor would I be remiss if they weren't.  

 The Titans stay in: They continue to ravage the standard environment.
 The Titans rotate out: Their brief one-year lifespan will have left a mark on players.   After fueling Valakut Ramp, forging overwhelming board advantage for BU control, etc. etc., their absence would leave an enourmous power vacuum.  If players were left with the M10 Mythics, they'd probably be underwhelmed, feeling that the replacements should be as-good or better than the Titans.

The merit of leaving them in is that we have a chance to get them out our system.  They'll get two years, and then they'll be a memory. By then, most will be happy to see them gone, and some may not be left feeling like they had vanished as soon as they arrived. 


I personally believe the best way to move forward with the "M" sets is a something of a mix.  
Half of the block can be Giant Spiders, and other evergreens, this half will experience some, but only minor tweaking with each passing numeral.
The other half of the block will be newer cards, like the Titans.  Half of that half will be last year's new cards. The other 25% will be this year's new cards.   
If the inconsistancy is consistant, players will know before-hand what's rotating out and what's rotating in, the same way we do with blocks.


Regarding the Lands, it's important to keep them accessable.  That's more or less the bottom line. The best way to give less experienced players the chance to catch up to mythic-weilding decks is to at least let them have their pick of land without having to trade unfairly.  Every deck needs land, not every deck needs mythics.
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