Zedruu and Though Lash

55 posts / 0 new
Last post
Hello, I read from a few places that you can donate Thought Lash with Zedruu in response to the CU trigger so that it goes like this:

CU trigger -> in response you donate (with Zedruu)  -> CU resolves (put an age counter on Thought Lash and choose not to pay for the CU) -> since you didn't pay for it, the ability "When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid, exile all cards from your library." triggers -> assuming no response, your opponent's library is now removed

Is this right?


However, a friend of mine asked the same question on MO and here's the  log:


5:33 PM My Friend: hi there. Are you a judge?

5:34 PM ORC: [@P]I have a rules advisor cards, Tiny. I can answer most of the rules questions [sS][/@]

5:34 PM My Friend: OK I want to ask two cards combo

5:34 PM ORC: [@P]Sure![/@]

5:36 PM My Friend: one is EDH creature Zedruu the Greathearted

5:36 PM My Friend: and other is Allience blue enchantment Though Lash

5:37 PM My Friend: what will happened when I response "though lash"'s trigger with "Zedruu the Greathearted" ability?

5:37 PM My Friend: would my opponent remove his library right now if I don't pay the upkeep payment?

5:37 PM ORC: [@P]You'd still exile your library or a card to the upkeep if you responded to the upkeep ability. You'd need to give it to your opponent with Zedruu. Not in response.[/@]

5:38 PM tinyfan: so the 2nd trigger of Though Lash is a delayed trigger?

5:39 PM ORC: [@P]No, Tiny. I'm saying that giving it away in response to the upkeep will not help. You'd want to get rid of it before needing to pay the upkeep.[/@]

5:42 PM My Friend: so the 2nd trigger check "who" don't pay the upkeep?

5:43 PM ORC: [@P]If you no longer control it, the ability will be countered.[/@]

5:43 PM My Friend: OK thank you^^

5:43 PM ORC: [@P]You're welcome, Tiny.[/@]

But in this thread (community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...) and some other places (MTGS ruling section etc) say that you can donate Thought Lash in response to the CU trigger. Who is right? Are Zedruu and Thought Lash an instant win combo?

CU trigger -> in response you donate (with Zedruu)  -> CU resolves (put an age counter on Thought Lash and choose not to pay for the CU) -> since you didn't pay for it, the ability "When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid, exile all cards from your library." triggers -> assuming no response, your opponent's library is now removed

Is this right?

That's correct. Thought lash's 2nd ability (make sure to read its oracle text, not its printed text) doesn't care who failed to pay the upkeep cost, and it doesn't care whether or not the enchantment was sacrificed due to not paying the upkeep cost.
However, a friend of mine asked the same question on MO and here's the  log:

The orc is wrong.
After looking up the cards, I came to the same conclusion as cyphern. However, even if your opponent's library is gone, it is not an instant win for you. He would need to fail to draw a card from that library to lose. As long as he doesn't, he's fine. That card draw could be replaced or made impossible, for example.
I have some questions:
1. How
Thought lash
's 2nd ability trigger?
2. When the 2nd ability triggers, triggers on whose side and why?


By the way, comparing the text before Oracle changes and after, I don't think it will totally change the card rule.
when it triggers, donate it to another player
when the trigger resolves don't pay the cost, then the library of the current controller gets exiled.
proud member of the 2011 community team
What part of the first paragraph in the OP didn't you understand?

 
CU trigger -> in response you donate (with Zedruu)  -> CU resolves (put an age counter on Thought Lash and choose not to pay for the CU) -> since you didn't pay for it, the ability "When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid, exile all  cards from your library." triggers -> assuming no response, your opponent's library is now removed



The ability of Throught Lash that triggers when its cumulative upkeep (CU in the above quote) isn't paid is controlled by your opponent, since they controlled thoughlash (because of Zedruu's donate) when the cumulative upkeep wasn't paid. The ability doesn't care who didn't pay the cumulative upkeep, just that it wasn't paid. 
All Generalizations are Bad
I wonder why you can trigger an enchantment doesn't controlled by you at that trigger point and that trigger are due to your ability(not pay the UP).
The thought lash is still the same though lash that you controlled, it's just controlled by another player. You still control the cumulative upkeep trigger, since it triggered when you controlled the thought lash. When you don't pay, it isn't sacrificed, since you can't sacrifice something you don't control.

However, the trigger condition on the thought lash is "When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid." It doesn't care who didn't pay the cumulative upkeep. 

You can always trigger enchantments not controlled by you if something you do matches the trigger condition. See Intruder Alarm
All Generalizations are Bad
Another thought, when will the age counter actually put?
when UP resolved or at the UP triggered?
Adding the age counter is the first step of resolving the cumulative upkeep.


702.22a Cumulative upkeep is a triggered ability that imposes an increasing cost on a permanent. “Cumulative upkeep [cost]” means “At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent is on the battlefield, put an age counter on this permanent. Then you may pay [cost] for each age counter on it. If you don’t, sacrifice it.” If [cost] has choices associated with it, each choice is made separately for each age counter, then either the entire set of costs is paid, or none of them is paid. Partial payments aren’t allowed.


 
All Generalizations are Bad
So if CU resolved when the enchantment are not controlled by you, you still can put an age counter on it (not controlled by you) and choose not to pay the CU?
Yes, as long as it triggered when you controlled the enchantment.

In that case, you still have to put an age counter on it, and you still choose whether or not to pay the CU.
All Generalizations are Bad
The combo seems kind of cheap and wrong IMO, I know it works within the rules. Donating Illusions of Grandeur has always been legal and this combo works the same way in principle.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

Not exactly the same way, since you get to immediately exile their library when you donate it instead of having to wait until they can't pay the CU.
All Generalizations are Bad
Not exactly the same way, since you get to immediately exile their library when you donate it instead of having to wait until they can't pay the CU.

Well you could donate it, then not pay the upkeep to make them loose 20 life right?
Not exactly the same way, since you get to immediately exile their library when you donate it instead of having to wait until they can't pay the CU.

Well you could donate it, then not pay the upkeep to make them loose 20 life right?


The problem is that you can't sacrifice a permanent you don't control.

Sig
Disclaimers
My initial responses to rules questions are usually just answers. If you want an explanation as to why, say so. Just because it says I'm there, I'm not necessarily there. I leave my browser open so I don't have to reload ~30 tabs. Anyone who wants to text duel me through either PM or chat can just PM me with a format (and a time if playing through chat). I don't play standard.
# Card Blind Hall of Fame
3CB
3CB #1 (1/30/11): Won by silasw, with Mishra's Factory, Orzhov Basilica, Vindicate. 3CB #2 (2/13/11): Won by Vektor480, with Mishra's Workshop, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs 3CB #3(2/20/11): Joint win between defuse, with Saprazzan Skerry, Scalding Tongs, Energy Field; and Mown, with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Inkmoth Nexus, Sheltered Valley 3CB #4(3/13/11): Won by Mown, with Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boros Garrison 3CB #5(3/20/11): Won by silasw, with Black Lotus, Channel, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
5CB
5CB 1 (3/6/11): Won by Maraxus-of-Keld, with Tropical Island, Thallid, Nether Spirit, Daze, Foil
quotes
56819178 wrote:
So, how would I use a card that has a large in the top half and "sui?l? -- pu?? ?is?q" across the middle?
57031358 wrote:
99113151 wrote:
Winning is not important if: 1. You win by a blowout. 2. You pay billions of dollars in cards to win. If you like wasting money just to win one game, while you could have saved it to lose a few and end up winning more in the future, then it is fine by me.
what? do you ceremonially light your deck on fire after a win?
57169958 wrote:
Or did no one notice Transmogrifying Licid before. (And by not notice, I mean covered their ears and shouted LA LA LA LA )
57193048 wrote:
57169958 wrote:
Hmmm... I think the most awkward situation at the moment is simply the Myr Welder / Equipment / Licid / Aura craziness, but I'm pretty sure he's aware of it.
If the most awkward thing going on right now involves Licids, I declare victory.
56287226 wrote:
We regret to inform you of Trevor Kidd's untimely demise in an unfortunate accident involving a mysteriously blown breaker box and a photophobic creature of unknown origin at his home near Renton, Washington. We at the Wizards Community apologize for any inconvenience or delay, and assure you we'll be preparing a replacement to assume his duties as soon as we finish warming up the cloning vats.
[02:47:46] It doesn't merely "come out of suspend" - you take the last time counter off, and then suspend triggers and say "now cast that! CAST IT NOOOOOW!" [02:47:49] Because suspend has no indoors voice
[10:11:33] !opalescence [10:11:33] Opalescence {2WW} |Enchantment| Each other non-Aura enchantment is a creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment. · Reserved,UD-R,Vin,Leg,Cla,USBC [10:11:51] *sigh* [10:12:10] Otecko: Do you have a question about Opalescence? [10:12:17] sure [10:12:23] $10 on humility interaction [10:12:25] :P [10:12:29] :D [10:12:47] humility + opalescence put into play by replenish
Ego
58325628 wrote:
Mage is awesome, BTW.
56967858 wrote:
Dear Mage24365, You are totally awesome. Thank you so much. I hope you are able to dine in Paradise without kicking the bucket to actually get there, and that every dollar you ever make magically becomes two more.
58158398 wrote:
56761258 wrote:
I don't think there are any cards like that. There are things that prevent you from activating activated abilities, things that increase their cost, and things that counter them, but I don't think anything triggers from them specifically. There are things that trigger from targeting, so that might be relevant, but I can't think of anything that triggers from targeting a player. I'm almost positive there's nothing that triggers from damage being prevented.
Rings of Brighthearth; Dormant Gomazoa; Samite Ministration.
56761258 wrote:
Well played.

 

Right, the difference is that Thought Lash triggers when the upkeep isn't paid, while illusion triggers when it leaves the battlefield.
All Generalizations are Bad
But according the rulings below the card
gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details....

It seems the 2nd trigger is belongs to whom controll the CU trigger.
But according the rulings below the card
gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details....

It seems the 2nd trigger is belongs to whom controll the CU trigger.


That ruling says nothing about control change effects. It is only describing the normal situation, not ones involving zedruu.

The 2nd triggered ability is controlled by the person that controls Thoughtlash at the time the 2nd ability triggers.
603.3a A triggered ability is controlled by the player who controlled its source at the time it triggered, unless it's a delayed triggered ability. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d-f.

 
But according the rulings below the card
gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details....

It seems the 2nd trigger is belongs to whom controll the CU trigger.


According to the rule, it seems the 2nd trigger is controlled by the player who controlled the Thought Lash at the time the CU went unpaid.
603.3a A triggered ability is controlled by the player who controlled its source at the time it triggered, unless it's a delayed triggered ability. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d-f.


And I don't see the ruling that mentions a control change.
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
How if the "thought lash" 2nd trigger is a delayed triggered ability?
603.7a Delayed triggered abilities come from spells or other abilities that create them on resolution,
or are created as the result of a replacement effect being applied. That means a delayed triggered
ability won’t trigger until it has actually been created, even if its trigger event occurred just
beforehand. Other events that happen earlier may make the trigger event impossible.

603.7e If an activated or triggered ability creates a delayed triggered ability, the source of that
delayed triggered ability is the same as the source of that other ability. The controller of that
delayed triggered ability is the player who controlled that other ability as it resolved.


What was the point of quoting some of the rules specific to delayed triggered abilities?  None of the cards mentioned in this thread have one.
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
I quoteing some of the rules specific to delayed triggered abilities just because I wonder the "Thought Lash" 2nd trigger is a delayed triggered ability.

I quoteing some of the rules specific to delayed triggered abilities just because I wonder the "Thought Lash" 2nd trigger is a delayed triggered ability.



It's not.  It's a normal triggered ability.


 
Why and how to determine whether or not?
603.7. An effect may create a delayed triggered ability that can do something at a later time. A delayed triggered ability will contain "when," "whenever," or "at," although that word won't usually begin the ability.


"When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid, exile all cards from your library." isn't created by any effect, it is simply printed on the Thought Lash card as a distinct ability.

Example of delayed triggered ability: Mimic Vat's activated ability creates a delayed triggered ability: "Exile it at the beginning of the next end step."
No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.
Card Text:


Cumulative upkeep—Exile the top card of your library. (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)

When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid, exile all cards from your library.

Exile the top card of your library: Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to you this turn.

My understanding is that at the point YOU choose not to pay all cards are exiled from your library...  The owner at the the time of trigger (beginning of upkeep) is you.

You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!

It is a separate trigger that goes off if you do not pay the cumulative upkeep. But the trigger uses "you" to indicate the player that has to exile his library. And "you" can only ever refer to the contoller of the ability which is the same as the one who controls the source. And at the time the trigger fires, that is the opponent.

Card Text:


Cumulative upkeep—Exile the top card of your library. (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)

When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid, exile all cards from your library.

Exile the top card of your library: Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to you this turn.

My understanding is that at the point YOU choose not to pay all cards are exiled from your library...  The owner at the the time of trigger (beginning of upkeep) is you.



603. Handling Triggered Abilities

603.1. Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. They are written as "[Trigger condition], [effect]," and begin with the word "when," "whenever," or "at." They can also be expressed as "[When/Whenever/At] [trigger event], [effect]."


My understanding is that the trigger condition of "When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid, exile all cards from your library." is "When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid", not "At the beginning of your upkeep".  The controller of the Thought Lash at that time is the controller of the ability.  The owner at that time is irrelevant as usual.
603.3a A triggered ability is controlled by the player who controlled its source at the time it triggered, unless it's a delayed triggered ability. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d-f.

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

Card Text:


Cumulative upkeep—Exile the top card of your library. (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)

When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid, exile all cards from your library.

Exile the top card of your library: Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to you this turn.

My understanding is that at the point YOU choose not to pay all cards are exiled from your library...  The owner at the the time of trigger (beginning of upkeep) is you.



603. Handling Triggered Abilities

603.1. Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. They are written as "[Trigger condition], [effect]," and begin with the word "when," "whenever," or "at." They can also be expressed as "[When/Whenever/At] [trigger event], [effect]."


My understanding is that the trigger condition of "When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid, exile all cards from your library." is "When Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep isn't paid", not "At the beginning of your upkeep".  The controller of the Thought Lash at that time is the controller of the ability.  The owner at that time is irrelevant as usual.
603.3a A triggered ability is controlled by the player who controlled its source at the time it triggered, unless it's a delayed triggered ability. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d-f.




So are you saying you cannot donated it to remove your opponents library? (Just for Clarification for everyone)

You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!

No, he's not saying that. He's saying that what matters is the person who controls thought lash when the upkeep isn't paid. That's the person you donated it to.
All Generalizations are Bad
Walkthrough.

My upkeep starts, the Thought Lash cumulative upkeep triggers and the trigger goes to the stack. I control the source so I control the trigger.

Now, in response to the Cumulative Upkeep trigger I activate Avarice Totem twice trading Thought Lash for some permanent of yours. They resolve and now you have Thought Lash and I have a permanent of yours. (how you get Thought Lash isn't really important as long as you end up with it)

Now the cumulative upkeep trigger resolves and I decide not to pay it, so it gets sacrificed, except I can't sacrifice something you now control so I don't.

Now the Thought Lash that you control triggers its other triggered ability and you control it. It resolves and you now exile all cards in your library.

Still in my upkeep I activate Temple Bell and you lose.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

How does Avarice Totem exchange the Thought Lash you control with your opponents nonland permanent?

You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!

Man, I knew that question was coming. I'm not sure why Goth decided to take a situation people are already confused about and throw an unneccessary confusing interaction into it.

The trick with Avarice Totem is that you activate it targeting your own crappy permanent, and then without passing priority, you respond by activating it targeting your opponet's permanent that you want. You do this while your opponent doesn't have enough mana to use the totem themselves.

First the second activation resolves, trading totem for their awesome permanent. Then the first activation resolve, trading the totem back from them to you, for your crappy permanent.
All Generalizations are Bad
How does Avarice Totem exchange the Thought Lash you control with your opponents nonland permanent?


I do kinda wish 2goth4u had stuck with zedruu, because adding in avarice totem makes it an even more complicated situation...

In any event, here's how you use avarice totem to swap some nonland permanent you control with a nonland permanent your opponent controls

1) Activate avarice totem targetting Thought Lash 
2) In response, activate avarice totem targetting something your opponent controls
3) The ability activated in step 2 resolves. Your opponent now controls the avarice totem and you control that other nonland permanent
4) The ability activated in step 1 resolves. This exchanges control of avarice totem with thought lash. This exchange is perfectly fine, since they are controlled by different players. Now you control the totem again and the other nonland permanent, while your opponent controls thought lash.

This assumes that the opponent can not or does not activate the totem's ability once he gains control of it.
How does Avarice Totem exchange the Thought Lash you control with your opponents nonland permanent?

Activate the Totem once targeting the thing you want to trade to your opponent, then immediately activate it again in response, targeting the thing you want to get from your opponent.

The second activation will resolve first, exchanging the Totem away for the thing you wanted from your opponent. Then, assuming nothing interferes, the original activation resolves and exchanges the Totem for the thing you wanted to give to your opponent.

End result: you give away one permanent of yours to get one permanent of your opponent's.

(Your opponent can screw things up if he has enough mana to activate the Totem himself once you give it to him, so don't do this if the opponent has five or more mana available.)

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I did point out that how they get Thought Lash isn't really important (Zedruu, Avarice Totem, Donate, Bazaar Trader after Liquimental Coating, etc.), but I suppose some want their curiosity sated when they see something new.

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
DCI #5209514320


My Wife's Makeup Artist Page <-- cool stuff - check it out

Just got a response from Wizards. It would appear that when you donate the Thought lash it doesn't exile your opponents library...

"When the 'Cumulative Upkeep' ability (paid or unpaid) enters the stack, you can activate an ability that would give Thought Lash to your opponent (such as the one by Zedruu the Greathearted). Your opponent would not be effected by the 'Cumulative Upkeep' until their turn. Also, because you no longer have the permanent, you would not have to exile your library. At the beginning of your opponent's turn, it would act as normal keeping the counters it had. Then, on your opponent's turn, they would treat Thought Lash according to their own strategies, either paying the upkeep or not and allowing those effects to resolve."

 

You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!

When you say "Wizards", who exactly do you mean?

If it's customer service, that really doesn't hold any weight compared to the regulars of this forum and their Comprehensive rules quotes. I'm just saying this because the response doesn't seem to understand the interaction in question or how the triggered ability works.
57092228 wrote:
It is not logic: it's Magic.


The only online/email contact info was for customer service. (not including these boards)

You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!