Proposal: Full Editing (It's not what you think)

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There continue to be complaints and requests for full deck editing however there has definitely been a paradigm shift from the older days. I would say that the majority are now happy with just core deck editing and, in fact, think there would be real problems with full deck editing on our limited card pool.

However, we cannot deny that one of the basic fundamentals of MtG is building your own deck from scratch. For DotP to survive and grow, it must evolve to provide this capability somehow. As I have said elsewhere, Wizards must walk a fine line in their evolution of DotP. They are making a ton of money on paper Magic & MTGO and also on DotP. They don't want to risk any of their revenue streams.

I think there is a way to add a full editing capability to DotP but in a limited (pun intended) fashion.

The whole area of limited formats is major part of mainstream Magic but is yet unseen on DotP. There are many variations in this format but one involves receiving a fixed number of random cards from a pool of cards. You then have complete control to build the best deck (these are typically 40-card decks) from the random set of cards you received. You then play against other people (or AI) who have done the same thing.

Advantages:

1) You get to do the complete deck building thing
2) It doesn't fall into the old trap of everyone using net decks (everyone has a different random card pool and each has to build their own deck from their own pool)
3) We have asked and asked for random matchup capability and this would definitely provide it
4) You still must be able to play the deck you build so that the best builder/player is rewarded

There would be many details to be worked out but out of the various limited formats available, surely something could be come up with.
This idea is nothing new and has been talked about since DotP 2009.  Since that time the general consensus is that you simply need to create separate playlists for pre-built and custom decks to allow newer players a safe haven to learn the game.  As demonstrated by the lack of manual land tapping in 2012 though, Wizards/Stainless seems content to keep the DotP franchise a version of Magic for Dummies.  The idea for custom decks is great but they cannot even provide us with a hotfix for making decks blind in ranked.  In the end, they simply do not care enough about the quality of their game unless it brings in more money for them (just wait, we'll get fixes once the first DLC is ready to be released).
Sealed instead of draft may be a possibility. I don't know how popular Sealed is on MTGO, but if it's at all popular you won't see it show up here. One of the biggest sources of income (As far as I am aware) for wizards in MTGO is the boosters purchased for limited events. They'll be hesitant to add anything to Duels that would reduce the number of people buying boosters off MTGO.
Immature College Student (Also a Rules Advisor)
I disagree with the whole argument that Wizards should not and will not do this because of money.

Magic is not a popular game compared to mainstream titles. I'm not going to make any statement about the paper game because I don't know the facts. But I think it's safe to say that it is not dominating the video game industry. One of the reasons why is because MTGO is a scam. The price required to be competitive in that game exceeds the 'net utility' of playing it (I'm sure many people will agree with me on this). Duels is a step forward for Magic digital games because it is pre-built, and the DLC are minimal, one-time fees which most people don't have a problem with. The reason it remains under the radar compared to other titles is because it's not a full Magic game with full customization. I think Wizards would expand their market proportionately by expanding the card pool and variability with customization. Right now, Duels is a solid source of income, so they should continue updating it and coming out with new content because the current formula works. In the future, however, full customization and a broader card pool may be seen as an opportunity to expand their market and might be the right choice.

This is all just a theory, so feel free to tear me apart with facts and figures. I like the idea though, and think random cards could work (as long as they are tested and not gamebreaking). The only way for this game to go is to allow full customization, so I don't think it's impossible. Just maybe not in DotP 2012.
The problem I see with this is two-fold, both about the random selection of cards. One being, would it ever rotate, i.e. would we be stuck with the same cards for the long run, or would it change every month or so? If it doesn't change then it leads me to the second problem, what if you get bad and or cards that can make a deck that's not your style of playing? If it didn't change, you might just stop playing or only play the core decks, in which case this random selection is wasted on you. If it does change, depending on the time it takes to "rotate" you would probably not want to play until the rotation again, and what if you keep getting cards that don't appeal to you?

Overall, I see what you're trying to do with this, but the idea hasn't blossomed yet. You need to think up more details, hopefully regarding the rotation and if these random selection self made decks would be in their own lobbys, or if people would be able to use these decks against people using the core decks.

I'm not against the idea, but as it stands, I'm not for it either.
What if they made Magic like Madden (or any sports franchise). Every year they released the entire Basic set (7th edition, 8th.... 2011, 2012...) as a full game. Everyone has access to these cards, to choose and build from. If we're talking about money here, wouldn't that be their best bet?

And while I'm fantasizing, what if whenever you win a match you unlock a random expansion card (or booster pack?). That'd be dope.

If they ever start selling cards individually though, like MTGO, that's when I'd quit.

This is all just a theory, so feel free to tear me apart with facts and figures. I like the idea though, and think random cards could work (as long as they are tested and not gamebreaking). The only way for this game to go is to allow full customization, so I don't think it's impossible. Just maybe not in DotP 2012.


Here's another way to put it; Why would I spend hundreds of dollars playing a game with a limited number of people (those whose physical presense I can be in), when I could do the same thing for $10 and have a few thousand people I can play with at any given time? Bigger card pool? I don't think so....

Fully customizable DotP would end up competing with CCG Magic. CCG Magic probably brings in an order of magnitude or two more money every year than DotP ever will at all. Why would they want to jeopardize their vast perpetual income for the sake of a few thousand one shots of $10?  

This is all just a theory, so feel free to tear me apart with facts and figures. I like the idea though, and think random cards could work (as long as they are tested and not gamebreaking). The only way for this game to go is to allow full customization, so I don't think it's impossible. Just maybe not in DotP 2012.


Here's another way to put it; Why would I spend hundreds of dollars playing a game with a limited number of people (those whose physical presense I can be in), when I could do the same thing for $10 and have a few thousand people I can play with at any given time? Bigger card pool? I don't think so....

Fully customizable DotP would end up competing with CCG Magic. CCG Magic probably brings in an order of magnitude or two more money every year than DotP ever will at all. Why would they want to jeopardize their vast perpetual income for the sake of a few thousand one shots of $10?  

Because digital games bring in a new market, and a potentially bigger one. How many people actually play paper magic? Isn't the video game vastly more convenient and accessible? Even though they might damage their paper-base, the digital game would more than cover up that loss because more mainstream customers would play it. I mean come on, everything in the world is becoming digital and online. It might in fact give the game a big boost in popularity.

This is all just a theory, so feel free to tear me apart with facts and figures. I like the idea though, and think random cards could work (as long as they are tested and not gamebreaking). The only way for this game to go is to allow full customization, so I don't think it's impossible. Just maybe not in DotP 2012.


Here's another way to put it; Why would I spend hundreds of dollars playing a game with a limited number of people (those whose physical presense I can be in), when I could do the same thing for $10 and have a few thousand people I can play with at any given time? Bigger card pool? I don't think so....

Fully customizable DotP would end up competing with CCG Magic. CCG Magic probably brings in an order of magnitude or two more money every year than DotP ever will at all. Why would they want to jeopardize their vast perpetual income for the sake of a few thousand one shots of $10?  

Because digital games bring in a new market, and a potentially bigger one. How many people actually play paper magic? Isn't the video game vastly more convenient and accessible? Even though they might damage their paper-base, the digital game would more than cover up that loss because more mainstream customers would play it. I mean come on, everything in the world is becoming digital and online. It might in fact give the game a big boost in popularity.



Take note of the Emphasized part.
Tiniest math I could come up with on a simple search:
"Prerelease tournaments are held in hundreds of locations around the world five to six days before each new expansion, or set, is available for sale in stores."

Hundreds. let's use the lowest: 200 tournaments.
We'll use the lowest likely attendance: 8 people.
We'll use the lowest (un)likely cost: $20

$32000, 3 times a year. Due to my painfully lowball estimates, we'll round that up to $100,000 a year.
That's ONE dinky little format; Pre-release. There are DOZENS more.
Plus, increase each of those factors by 50% (probably still painfully lowball) and the gross sales becomes $300,000+.  
Again, from one very very tiny event. I don't have the numbers on how many players attend pre-releases, but it's not all of them. Also, there probably isn't a Magic player alive that spends $60 a year on cards.

Fully customizable DotP, for all the money it would make, would make that money once. AND, the degree in which it would mimic the full Magic experience would dissuade people from buying the cards. Again, why would you spend hundreds of dollars a year on a game that you can enjoy for $10?

This math is just the tiniest tip of an IMMENSE iceberg.
This idea is nothing new and has been talked about since DotP 2009.  Since that time the general consensus is that you simply need to create separate playlists for pre-built and custom decks to allow newer players a safe haven to learn the game.  As demonstrated by the lack of manual land tapping in 2012 though, Wizards/Stainless seems content to keep the DotP franchise a version of Magic for Dummies.  The idea for custom decks is great but they cannot even provide us with a hotfix for making decks blind in ranked.  In the end, they simply do not care enough about the quality of their game unless it brings in more money for them (just wait, we'll get fixes once the first DLC is ready to be released).



Pretty much came here to say this.
Just looked it up myself. You're right. I never realized Magic made so much money.
And yet there are gamers like myself that will NEVER play card-based Magic.  So my potential money is lost to them except in these $10 installments.  They can either maximize their market or continue to lose potential revenue.  In this case Wizards seems content to limit their exposure as Xbox Live and PSN accounts for a much larger market than the card based or PC-limited MtGO.  Sure, they may lose potential customers by expanding their market but they will easily increase their total revenue at the same time.  Claiming that digital distribution of Magic cards would hurt the physical card profits is true, but it says nothing of the gross revenue increasing overall.  So yes, Wizards can continue to focus on a single market or expand and increase their total revenue as a result.  I mean we are talking about 30 million users for Xbox Live alone.
I mean we are talking about 30 million users for Xbox Live alone.


This is where your argument fails. X-BOX, PS3 and even PC gamers are by NO means a guaranteed market for a console based card game. Magic the CCG is a powerhouse. A Force of Nature as it were, in the gaming industry. In the Video game industry however, it's influence drops into "niche market". it's not competing with other card games, it's competing with other genres. Fighting games, RPGs, Real Time Strategy's, oh god how quickly it would die to First Person Shooters in the 21st century. And you're proposing that a game that makes millions off repeat sales in a market where it is a dominating force is going to have the same success in $10 one-offs in a market where it has a tiny niche? All the while almost assuredly taking away sales from where it's a guaranteed success? 

Hundreds of dollars vs. $10. Be honest, which would you choose?
Worthy of repeat post:

Fully customizable DotP is analogous to MTGO, except that instead of buying cards you pay $10 for everything. Does that sound like good business sense? Even on a limited card pool?
They will have to come up with a new gimmick next iterarion though, the same way archenemy was. Dont think itll be drafts or full editing though. Perhaps Commander.
I mean we are talking about 30 million users for Xbox Live alone.


This is where your argument fails. X-BOX, PS3 and even PC gamers are by NO means a guaranteed market for a console based card game. Magic the CCG is a powerhouse. A Force of Nature as it were, in the gaming industry. In the Video game industry however, it's influence drops into "niche market". it's not competing with other card games, it's competing with other genres. And you're proposing that a game that makes millions off repeat sales in a market where it is a dominating force is going to have the same success in one-offs in a market where it has a tiny niche. All the while almost assuredly taking away sales from where it's a guaranteed success. 

Hundreds of dollars vs. $10. Be honest, which would you choose?



Fails?  Really?  Even a 1% market share is 300,000 users.  At $10 a pop that is a bonus 3 million revenue stream every time new content is released.  Even if the additional content is priced at $2-5 that is quite a large boost to Wizards' revenue.  And that 1% is easily obtainable and does not include Steam or PSN.  The best part is that increasing their market does not mean that every existing player will simply switch to the newer format either.  In many cases these players will 'double dip' and Wizards has nothing to lose and everything to gain.  Besides, we are in a world where printed material is a thing of the past and digital distribution is the best way to expand a market.  Imagine if Wizards developed a way to create a server that could be playable on iPads, PCs, consoles, etc.  Their market potential would be insane and they still would not lose the majority of their card-based market.
Believe me, there is a lot of money to be made by Wizards on DotP. And remember, this is money paid by people that are pretty distinct from mainstream Magic. Either people that were in Magic and refuse to go back because of the cost or people new to the genre and refuse to move on to mainstream for a variety of reasons but mainly cost. Also DotP 9 was one of the top-sellers on Xbox for a long time; there is profit potential.

So if they play their cards right, Wizards can have their cake and eat it to. For the reasons above, they shouldn't feel too worried about adding some features to DotP and losing current paper or MTGO customers.

One of the limited formats that has been popular in the past and now doesn't exist any more is leagues. When you start you get random cards from a pool (say the total pool currently in DotP12). From that random selection of cards, you build your 40-card deck. Then you play against other people in the same league. The league lasts a fixed amount of time (say one month) and based on win-loss records you have overall standings. During the month you can tweak your deck but only from the the same random set of cards you got initially. Since the overall pool is all the cards people are familiar with, the deck-building should not be an overwhelming task, even for newbies.

 
Fails?  Really?  Even a 1% market share is 300,000 users. At $10 a pop that is a bonus 3 million revenue stream every time new content is released.  Even if the additional content is priced at $2-5 that is quite a large boost to Wizards' revenue.  And that 1% is easily obtainable and does not include Steam or PSN.  The best part is that increasing their market does not mean that every existing player will simply switch to the newer format either.


Yes, it fails. You're advocating an inexpensive feature with a risk of cutting into the sales of their most successful product and guaranteeing 7 digit returns from X-BOX alone. You're expecting a percentage of a widely varied demographic to buy into this game and not give up on the far more expensive version of that game. I think it would be interesting to take this line of thinking to the Dragon's Den (have you ever watched that show?). I would love to hear what they have to say about it when you tell them your projected number of buyers is set at three hundred thousand minimum. They would ask where you get that number and your response would be "well you can't go below 1%..."

Seriously though. If they don't make DotP fully customizable, they still rake in the cash. if they do, they run the risk of losing sales on the biggest product they will ever sell. I don't need numbers to back that up. You on the other hand, would need hard numbers to back up your confidence in it making millions overnight. Without those hard numbers (and who knows, maybe Wizards is crunching them as we speak. I sent them an E-mail a couple days ago and got an interesting response; they referrred me to MGTO ).

Again, everything we've touched on so far is only the tiniest tip of a ginormous iceberg (have you considered how many people will ragequit because the game would be near impossible to balance properly?).
 
Pwned!  www.stainlessgames.com/news/go/97

So much for your theory (and that only includes Xbox Live sales).
What would perhaps be the most doable compromose here would allowing us to build our own decks out of all the cards that are in the exsisting decks. Like if you bought a box of pre-constructs and just started mixing and matching cards. Then segregate these custom decks to their own play mode with it's own ranking.
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Pwned!  www.stainlessgames.com/news/go/97

So much for your theory (and that only includes Xbox Live sales).



Nice. You've proven that there are hundreds of thousands of people who will have a good reason to stop paying hundreds of dollars a year playing Card Magic, because now they can get the full experience for $10. I wonder what that would do to Wizards' bottom line...

Come back when you actually get my argument. I'm not against the idea because I know dozens of people who both play or have played magic that would gladly stop playing if I told them DotP went full deck customization. I'd be saving them a ton of money, AND they could all play with/against each other with their customized decks no matter where they are on Earth.

Two reasons to not get into Magic:
1. It costs hundreds of dollars, typically annually.
2. No-one/Not enough people to play it with to bother.

Guess what your Full Deck Customization does:
It gives people two really good reasons to never get into Magic.  

Congratulations Captain Pwnd. You just torpedoed your argument.

You have to be trolling if you think that DotP 2009/12 is the "full experience".  Anyway, MTGO was launched in 2002 and per a 2007 report had reached 300k registered accounts and made up 30-50% of Wizards revenue stream.  Even DotP 2009 beat that number of users and it has only been 2 years since its release.

Eventually Wizards will have to embrace the digital format but for now they keep making it a version of Magic for Dummies.  In the future they will have to integrate the two formats and eventually I can see every card having a scannable code that can be validated.  Imagine walking into a tournament, scanning your deck and having it validated and then playing Magic on a touch panel table that can be streamed by an audience around the globe.  Stats could be tracked including how often cards are played, comments could be made and logged online by other players, guilds/clans could make deck lists viewable for other members, etc.  You cannot honestly tell me that the current physical card format can support any of these things.

I understand that you are a Magic purist and that is perfectly fine.  The problem is that eventually Magic will have to evolve and if they do not do it soon they will have a card game that only reaches a limited market, an online game that is over 10 years old, and an audience that continues to be neglected and eventually will stop purchasing their $10 installments.  And for the record, full deck customizations is 'getting into Magic' as that is what you are actually playing with those custom decks.  It is only your biased viewpoint that seems to think that Magic is only 'real' when it is played with physical cards.  As I said before, I will never played a card version of Magic, ever.  So either they can market a digital product to try and earn my dollar or they can sell me these Magic for Dummies games and eventually I'll just lose interest or another, better digital product will get my money.


You have to be trolling if you think that DotP 2009/12 is the "full experience".  Anyway, MTGO was launched in 2002 and per a 2007 report had reached 300k registered accounts and made up 30-50% of Wizards revenue stream.  Even DotP 2009 beat that number of users and it has only been 2 years since its release.

Eventually Wizards will have to embrace the digital format but for now they keep making it a version of Magic for Dummies.  In the future they will have to integrate the two formats and eventually I can see every card having a scannable code that can be validated.  Imagine walking into a tournament, scanning your deck and having it validated and then playing Magic on a touch panel table that can be streamed by an audience around the globe.  Stats could be tracked including how often cards are played, comments could be made and logged online by other players, guilds/clans could make deck lists viewable for other members, etc.  You cannot honestly tell me that the current physical card format can support any of these things.

I understand that you are a Magic purist and that is perfectly fine.  The problem is that eventually Magic will have to evolve and if they do not do it soon they will have a card game that only reaches a limited market, an online game that is over 10 years old, and an audience that continues to be neglected and eventually will stop purchasing their $10 installments.  And for the record, full deck customizations is 'getting into Magic' as that is what you are actually playing with those custom decks.  It is only your biased viewpoint that seems to think that Magic is only 'real' when it is played with physical cards.  As I said before, I will never played a card version of Magic, ever.  So either they can market a digital product to try and earn my dollar or they can sell me these Magic for Dummies games and eventually I'll just lose interest or another, better digital product will get my money.



You know what, imagine for a second we're both working for Wizards. When you say "Give them the whole shebang for $10! We'll make millions!", and I follow up with, "Yeah, do that. Then watch all the people paying hundreds of dollars for the same experience stop paying hundreds of dollars."

Who are they going to take more seriously?
Losing paper magic to have 10$ DotP is not making money. Currently they can make millions with DotP an even MORE millions with cards. Why would they want to compromise one for the other when they don't have to?

Also, that 30-50% of Magic thing is online? That takes a hit too...

It's great that you want this. Hell, why wouldn't you want this? Problem is, Magic Online (as referred to me by Wizards when I inquired about Full Customization in DotP) already covers it.

Big picture and all that. Any other ways you want to shoot down the prospect of making DotP Fully Customizable?


EDIT: Oh, and before I forget Mr. "I understand you're a Magic Purist" "Can I be any more Presumptuous?" ... I dont' play Paper Magic. I played it for 11 years, still have 20+ decks that I don't use because I don't play anymore, and I have no interest in playing again. I'm all for Full Customization. Again, you'd have to be stupid to NOT want it. I'm merely telling you why it won't happen. Let's try to keep things in perspective thanks.

Speaking of torpedoing his own argument: Look at this will you? This is me asking your question directly to Wizards of the Coast Corporate (not this forum):

Question:  Is it possible at some point in the future to give us complete freedom to create our own decks using the cards contained within the game?
Tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people would gladly pay for this feature.

What are the chances of this being implemented in a future patch, expansion or edition of Duels of the Planeswalkers?




Answer: Thank you for getting in touch with us! I too think it would be fun to be able to completely customize my deck in Duels 2012. Wizards of the Coast greatly values the feedback provided by our customers. We here at Game Support interact with a wide variety of departments and I have passed this concern along to the proper people, and while you may not receive a direct reply from them they will see your suggestion. In the meantime you may want to check out Magic Online. It is a more accurate port of the Magic game and has the functionality you are requesting. You can find more information on it here:




Now, aside from giving a screenshot of the E-mail or giving you the Incident Report Number (110721-000192) you'll just have to take my word for it's legitimacy. But the funny thing is, however insignificant it may be, I've done more to actually make this happen than you have.

Fact is though, they referred the suggestion/question to soemone I probably won't hear from and promptly referred me to MTGO, because it already has what I want.

Take that as you will, and by all means, swim in the irony of it.   
There continue to be complaints and requests for full deck editing however there has definitely been a paradigm shift from the older days. I would say that the majority are now happy with just core deck editing and, in fact, think there would be real problems with full deck editing on our limited card pool.

However, we cannot deny that one of the basic fundamentals of MtG is building your own deck from scratch. For DotP to survive and grow, it must evolve to provide this capability somehow. As I have said elsewhere, Wizards must walk a fine line in their evolution of DotP. They are making a ton of money on paper Magic & MTGO and also on DotP. They don't want to risk any of their revenue streams.

I think there is a way to add a full editing capability to DotP but in a limited (pun intended) fashion.

The whole area of limited formats is major part of mainstream Magic but is yet unseen on DotP. There are many variations in this format but one involves receiving a fixed number of random cards from a pool of cards. You then have complete control to build the best deck (these are typically 40-card decks) from the random set of cards you received. You then play against other people (or AI) who have done the same thing.

Advantages:

1) You get to do the complete deck building thing
2) It doesn't fall into the old trap of everyone using net decks (everyone has a different random card pool and each has to build their own deck from their own pool)
3) We have asked and asked for random matchup capability and this would definitely provide it
4) You still must be able to play the deck you build so that the best builder/player is rewarded

There would be many details to be worked out but out of the various limited formats available, surely something could be come up with.




Quoting the OP and ignoring the discussion on a different topic.

A sealed pool game-type would be fantastic.  A typical 6-booster Pre-release style one would fail massively on the Xbox as typically deck building time takes 30 mins to an hour.  Something more similar to the existing game where you are given a random stratified pool of 60 cards and you then picked 2 colours from them to play together (then had to dump 6 cards say to get to 40) would be simpler. 

As it stands I don't think that changing the types of games would be sensible.  Adding FAR more cards with each DLC expansion seems the best option because then the decks naturally become more varied and it gets closer to the customisation idea without  ever encroaching on the scary space that is a blank canvas. D12 is for casual players.
So let's backup a step.  The bottom line here is profits.  MTGO makes money for Wizards.  Presumably more money than they would make without it as they have been supporting it since 2002.  So to claim that digital games hurt the sales of the physical cards must not be true otherwise why support MTGO?  Did I make a wrong assumption here or does MTGO not benefit Wizards?

Now if MTGO is a success and profitable it should be noted that the only audience that it targets is the PC gaming market.  This excludes a ton of possible users.  As a result Wizards expanded their franchise with Duels of the Planeswalker and distributed the game to PC, 360 and PS3 users.  Now the only players from this pool that have a conflict of interest are the PC gamers as they have both DotP and MTGO.  For a console user they have no alternative for Magic other than the physical cards.  So again, this expands the Magic brand to 'new' users that would otherwise not have a digital version of Magic available.

In terms of taking away sales a gamer can have a PC, 360 and a PS3 yet that is still only a single possible customer.  So if they prefer a specific system then wouldn't Wizards want to be available to them on the one that they play on the most?   Either that or risk losing the potential customer outright.  In some cases that same user can possibly purchase the product on multiple systems; a minority for sure but it still should be noted.

So again, why shouldn't Wizards expand their brand and provide the best possible Magic experience on all systems?  We have already established the fact that MTGO is beneficial for Wizards and it only targets the PC community.  DotP 2009 has posted incredible numbers on the 360 alone in just two years and that does not even account for the expansions that were released at $5 each or any of the other systems (PC and PS3).

In the end, I still see no plausible reason why Wizards should not be able to properly support DotP and still make a huge profit, moreso than without it.  Adding more customization options, paid DLCs and proper patch support would only increase the potential money that Wizards has to earn.  You keep mentioning how digital distribution will kill paper Magic yet if this was true wouldn't MTGO have done that years ago?  And lastly, of course Wizards is telling you to play MTGO as it offers exactly what you want.  Why would they ever tell you they do not have a product to meet your needs?  That is simply bad salesmanship.
In the end, I still see no plausible reason why Wizards should not be able to properly support DotP and still make a huge profit, moreso than without it.  Adding more customization options, paid DLCs and proper patch support would only increase the potential money that Wizards has to earn.  You keep mentioning how digital distribution will kill paper Magic yet if this was true wouldn't MTGO have done that years ago?  And lastly, of course Wizards is telling you to play MTGO as it offers exactly what you want.  Why would they ever tell you they do not have a product to meet your needs?  That is simply bad salesmanship.



Because, as I've already said a bajillion times, Magic (and Magic Online) gives you Full customization and costs a ton of money. DotP costs next to nothing. 
So by giving DotP full customization, you're applying the biggest advantage of a game that costs hundrreds of dollars on a game that costs next to nothing. 

You seriously don't see how that could affect the sales of the game/s that cost hundreds of dollars when I put it that way?  
Because, as I've already said a bajillion times, Magic (and Magic Online) gives you Full customization and costs a ton of money. DotP costs next to nothing. 
So by giving DotP full customization, you're applying the biggest advantage of a game that costs hundrreds of dollars on a game that costs next to nothing. 

You seriously don't see how that could affect the sales of the game/s that cost hundreds of dollars when I put it that way?  



I actually think that given how many gamers paid $25 for a game that lasted two years and will likely pay another $25 for DotP 2012 that Wizards will make $50 in a very short amount of time with a game that is Magic for Dummies.  Now imagine if they continued to produce additional content for DotP and expanded the game to the point where you could eventually cutomize full decks.  Of course they would charge for additional content and sooner rather than later you would have a game that could cost $100+.  I wouldn't call that "next to nothing" especially since 500k+ purchased DotP 2009 in less than two years.

So of those 500k sales on the 360, how many do you think play MTGO?  My guess is a very small percentage.  Again, this is a completely untapped market here.  We are not talking about players that currently play MTGO and would stop playing it because DotP allows for very limited deck customization.  Although I will admit that MTGO is almost 10 years old and for a computer program that is downright archaic.  I simply do not see how DotP would take away sales from MTGO even if it allowed for full deck customization as the card environment is severely restricited.  Instead it would more than likely work as a gateway game and eventually when Wizards decides to update/replace MTGO it would combine both player bases assuming that MTGO2 is not PC-only again.
Because, as I've already said a bajillion times, Magic (and Magic Online) gives you Full customization and costs a ton of money. DotP costs next to nothing. 
So by giving DotP full customization, you're applying the biggest advantage of a game that costs hundrreds of dollars on a game that costs next to nothing. 

You seriously don't see how that could affect the sales of the game/s that cost hundreds of dollars when I put it that way?  



I actually think that given how many gamers paid $25 for a game that lasted two years and will likely pay another $25 for DotP 2012 that Wizards will make $50 in a very short amount of time with a game that is Magic for Dummies.  Now imagine if they continued to produce additional content for DotP and expanded the game to the point where you could eventually cutomize full decks.  Of course they would charge for additional content and sooner rather than later you would have a game that could cost $100+.  I wouldn't call that "next to nothing" especially since 500k+ purchased DotP 2009 in less than two years.

So of those 500k sales on the 360, how many do you think play MTGO?  My guess is a very small percentage.  Again, this is a completely untapped market here.  We are not talking about players that currently play MTGO and would stop playing it because DotP allows for very limited deck customization.  Although I will admit that MTGO is almost 10 years old and for a computer program that is downright archaic.  I simply do not see how DotP would take away sales from MTGO even if it allowed for full deck customization as the card environment is severely restricited.  Instead it would more than likely work as a gateway game and eventually when Wizards decides to update/replace MTGO it would combine both player bases assuming that MTGO2 is not PC-only again.



But you're outright ignoring the fact that there's a shared market. Who would benefit most from an inexpensive version of a game that costs hundreds of dollars a year? The folks paying hundreds of dollars a year of course. Also, if you read around here you'll see a number of people who have started buying cards because they want their own decks. DotP is an inexpensive PC/console game that's a perfect lead-in to very expensive hobby. By having it emulate that very expensive hobby, the difference between the two (reduced from 'more cards and full deck customization' to simply 'more cards') is no longer worth the cost upgrading from console game to hobby. So on top of potentially losing existing players, they lose potential new players as well.

Look, The problem with your argument isn't the standpoint itself. You're attesting that Wizards could make a great deal more money off DotP than they are by making it fully customizable. That's fine. It's the fact that you're simply disregarding the consequences of the upgrade and saying they'll lose nothing, and you have nothing to back that up with. My standpoint is that there's a great deal of risk involved and that's why Wizards won't grant full customization to DotP.

The statement that there is a great deal of risk involved is simple fact. Upgrading an inexpensive game to include the most sought after features of a very expensive game is risky. My ascertion that Wizards will not grant full customization is bold, but a WotC employee adopting my standpoint would have a very easy time explaining the downside to this particular move. One adopting your standpoint would have to provide very hard and very convincing numbers to green-light this and just going by what you have said, those numbers only exist in a hypothetical, highly optimistic scenario (saying things like "my guess is a very small percentage of X-Box owners play MTGO" wouldn't cut it by a long shot).

That's my point. I'm not against the idea. I think full deck customization would be the greatest thing they could ever do with DotP. However, I seriously doubt Wizards would risk compromizing their current M:tG player base (or their sweet setup where DotP offers just enough to get people interested in the real deal) by doing it. 
Because, as I've already said a bajillion times, Magic (and Magic Online) gives you Full customization and costs a ton of money. DotP costs next to nothing. 
So by giving DotP full customization, you're applying the biggest advantage of a game that costs hundrreds of dollars on a game that costs next to nothing. 

You seriously don't see how that could affect the sales of the game/s that cost hundreds of dollars when I put it that way?  



I actually think that given how many gamers paid $25 for a game that lasted two years and will likely pay another $25 for DotP 2012 that Wizards will make $50 in a very short amount of time with a game that is Magic for Dummies.  Now imagine if they continued to produce additional content for DotP and expanded the game to the point where you could eventually cutomize full decks.  Of course they would charge for additional content and sooner rather than later you would have a game that could cost $100+.  I wouldn't call that "next to nothing" especially since 500k+ purchased DotP 2009 in less than two years.

So of those 500k sales on the 360, how many do you think play MTGO?  My guess is a very small percentage.  Again, this is a completely untapped market here.  We are not talking about players that currently play MTGO and would stop playing it because DotP allows for very limited deck customization.  Although I will admit that MTGO is almost 10 years old and for a computer program that is downright archaic.  I simply do not see how DotP would take away sales from MTGO even if it allowed for full deck customization as the card environment is severely restricited.  Instead it would more than likely work as a gateway game and eventually when Wizards decides to update/replace MTGO it would combine both player bases assuming that MTGO2 is not PC-only again.



But you're outright ignoring the fact that there's a shared market. Who would benefit most from an inexpensive version of a game that costs hundreds of dollars a year? The folks paying hundreds of dollars a year of course. Also, if you read around here you'll see a number of people who have started buying cards because they want their own decks. DotP is an inexpensive PC/console game that's a perfect lead-in to very expensive hobby. By having it emulate that very expensive hobby, the difference between the two (reduced from 'more cards and full deck customization' to simply 'more cards') is no longer worth the cost upgrading from console game to hobby. So on top of potentially losing existing players, they lose potential new players as well.

Look, The problem with your argument isn't the standpoint itself. You're attesting that Wizards could make a great deal more money off DotP than they are by making it fully customizable. That's fine. It's the fact that you're simply disregarding the consequences of the upgrade and saying they'll lose nothing, and you have nothing to back that up with. My standpoint is that there's a great deal of risk involved and that's why Wizards won't grant full customization to DotP.

The statement that there is a great deal of risk involved is simple fact. Upgrading an inexpensive game to include the most sought after features of a very expensive game is risky. My ascertion that Wizards will not grant full customization is bold, but a WotC employee adopting my standpoint would have a very easy time explaining the downside to this particular move. One adopting your standpoint would have to provide very hard and very convincing numbers to green-light this and just going by what you have said, those numbers only exist in a hypothetical, highly optimistic scenario (saying things like "my guess is a very small percentage of X-Box owners play MTGO" wouldn't cut it by a long shot).

That's my point. I'm not against the idea. I think full deck customization would be the greatest thing they could ever do with DotP. However, I seriously doubt Wizards would risk compromizing their current M:tG player base (or their sweet setup where DotP offers just enough to get people interested in the real deal) by doing it. 

If such a large contingent of players is that ready to abandon Magic and MTGO for a cheaper alternative, it would behove WOTC to be the ones to produce that product. Otherwise someone else might develop that game and steal both markets.
If such a large contingent of players is that ready to abandon Magic and MTGO for a cheaper alternative, it would behove WOTC to be the ones to produce that product. Otherwise someone else might develop that game and steal both markets.



That's a terribly weak argument. I'm talking about Magic competing with ITSELF. Competing with some other game is natural. Upgrading a less expensive version of a product to give the feature/s that everyone wants so they don't have to play the more expensive version (because honestly, I think that's why people want this feature so badly) is unnecessary. Especially when it serves better as a lead-in to the more expensive version. 
 
Aside from that, you're not seriously suggesting that someone else is going to make a M:tG card game...



Look, guys. This isn't me dictating terms or making Wizards' decisions for them. I'm merely extrapolating a conclusion and I've made exhaustive arguments as to why. If you feel assured that they will undoubtedly make DotP fully customizable, you're free to take as much solace in that conclusion as I take in mine.

If you want to influence their decision-making process and take steps to make such a change more likely, E-mail Wizards' corporate (not this site) and send them all your hard numbers on how this would be a no-risk, can't-miss business venture that they absolutely must do because they would make more money off it than card/MTGO ever would. You know...Like I already have. You guys are talking to a message board, I sent word that ostensibly made it to the people that actually make these decisions. (Seriously, I didn't even get a thank you for that...)
let me customize and make my own deck damn it! I want to truly play Magic the way its supposed to be done.

THEN this game would be at its utmost finest
What you're asking for, at least right now is a near impossibility.  My reasoning for this is:

WoTC released DoTP as an XBL/PSN/Steam downloadable game.  It in itself is not a full retail value game BECAUSE of the simplicity and limitations in what you can do.  It's why they can offer it at 9.99 and the DLC at 4.99 (minimal production for a larger long term monetary gain).  It's essentially a teaser.  A game built on giving you a taste, and opening doors to their staple product (the paper game, or at the very least for the digital devotee's MTGO).  It's a paid demo of the real game, lacking the proper logic or reasoning to expand any further than what is needed to profit from the low cost.

To do what you ask, they would have to actually re - invent....and re - invest into the makings of DoTP.  It would become an actual disc based game, more than likely like any retail game, markered at 49.99 - 59.99, with it's DLC running at 14.99.  In doing so while they could give you these features you're asking for, we would probably also lose some of the features we know of now (ex. We gain a huge pool of cards to utilize, but lose some of the more fun and interesting cards to chance DLC releases).

Business isn't just about "here's this"  "oh you don't like this?  Well why don't we increase what you get with this for the same exact price!."  Magic isn't a mainstream thing, especially in the console age, which is why it's an XBL/PSN download rather than a disc based game.  And yes, there are A LOT of people that play MTG, but not nearly as much that play console for what they buy it for (Call of Duty, Battlefield, Gears, the numerous Action/Sandbox and sports games out).  It's just not in that stage where it can competively compete with these genres at that retail value. 

You can't expect a company to put out that much production on a risk gain, or else you end up with Brutal Legend (another game that should have been great, and as a risk plummeted like crazy and sank).  I know, it's not the same situation as MTG, but then again Brutal Legend failed while trying to re invent a hurting genre, MTG would be trying to create a new full value genre from scratch which just isn't worth the risk right now when CoD, Gears, Assassin's Creed, etc take the retail limelight.

Edit - I should also note, that I don't want to try to sound like I'm persuading you not to ask for it.  By all means do.  But also play DoTP as it is now, get your friends to play it, essentially help them make as much money as possible on the current game.  By doing this and voicing what you would like, and not just on here but like the other said, to WoTC themselves, it could give them more incentive in the future when deciding on a new DoTP to actually take it to the disc based, retail age.  If they see that DoTP will steadily grow, that people will play it and be dedicated, that it brings in the revenue to reduce the risk, the more likely we are to see something like what you all ask for in the future.
Ok, so after shutting the computer off and everything a thought occurred to me as one way WOTC could bring you what you're seeking.

My theoretical proposal:

Since I used Brutal Legend up there as a reference point, I'll use that genre again, but instead use the Rockband system.  Most of us know, at least as a basis point, how Rockband is setup.  You purchase the retail game, given a set amount of bands, songs, etc.  From there you then have the Rockband music store, as well as the 10000000 dlc song/album releases which you can add to your current game/playlists.

What if MTG took that format and implemented it into a full retail disc based game?  What I mean is:

Sell DoTP as it kind of stands now, at full retail value (59.99).  Your are given a limited amount of decks (we'll use 40 since 10 is it's current at price).  Now each major DLC can give let's say 15 new decks, as well as 25 new cards (can be duplicates on some of the cards) for each existing, previous deck.  Now these decks, while based in a set theme/format can be used as is, or you can choose a few decks and randomize at will (full editing in a sense.  Instead of just having a W deck, or U/G deck, etc you can take say Unquenchable and mix it with Apex, and so on so forth). in Deck Editing they could even add a "random deck builder" where the system builds a deck for you and you can tweak it or junk it at will.

Now they setup a less major dlc release system, the MTG Card Store.  From here they can release individual cards, booster packs, starter decks, etc each at different costs based on the value of what they release and users now not only get full editing, but they can even do it as they do in real life and pick based on expansion, what cards are the current BoTB (best of the best) and what's not, whatever they want with what they release through this system.  People may end up going with the current Flavor, or they can pick based on what they enjoy.  Casual and competitive can benefit.

Then they can implement things like manual tapping, letting you play a random deck that's either taken from preset decks you've created and saved, or letting the game itself create a deck for you based on the cards and dlc you currently own.

As for online play they can even now implement a kind of "High Stakes"  option along with their ranked, unranked, 2HG, Archenemy formats.  In High Stakes you and another player sideline bet, or ante cards against each other.  Should you lose, those ante'd cards now become "exiled" from your deck in any future "High Stakes" match.  Winning can unlock premiums like foil skins for those cards, special or limited edition artwork, etc. for those cards.  Not only will this give players a new way to compete, but you now have incentive, and when losing, forced reasons to build and rebuild your decks the best you can.

Those are just a few of a multitude of things they could do with this game, but again they can only do that if we show them it's worth it.

Edit - and one for the road (trust me sorry for the novel, but I'm bored and thinking..bad combo) but I should note that this won't take away from things like MTG Paper, or MTGO.  While yes on the PC DoTP will be in a sense competing with MTGO, at the same time it won't be.  Those who stop playing one for the other will certainly be the minority in this (in fact I can confidently say that most die hard players will spend the money equally on both, or any mix of what they play).  Even on PC, someone may stop playing MTGO for the newly built DoTP..but there's no actual profit loss from this.  It's just exchanging the platform in which they are making money. 

And even less people will leave Paper magic for the console versions, because a BIG part of playing paper magic isn't about the card game itself but rather the interaction with those around you.  Whether they be friends, fellow tourney junkies, or the local card shop regulars, playing paper magic gives you that real life physical community and interactions.  All WoTC would be doing is opening up another major avenue to increase monetary gain.
You're creating what is MTGO for consoles, except now Wizards has to pay for having two competing formats running at the same time. Someone is making this game/adding these features. I assume they want to get paid for their work.
You're creating what is MTGO for consoles, except now Wizards has to pay for having two competing formats running at the same time. Someone is making this game/adding these features. I assume they want to get paid for their work.



My point in my first post.  the second was just a "what if" situation.  WoTC can't do what we wish they could without first seeing a valid, profitable reason for doing so.

I surmise that there are quite a few people here who either have never played paper magic before....or are just plain bad at math.


Heres a simple little example for you.


Lets look at a single paper magic card.....good old Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

This SINGLE card, by ITSELF...goes for about $70-$90 on average(a near mint foil goes for $200+)

DotP costs.....$10.

If DotP allowed full customization for its current price....why on earth would ANYONE in their right mind pay $70-$200+ for a SINGLE card, when they could just as easily pay $10, and not only get a complete playset of 4, but also access to all of the other printed MTG cards?

Even if DotP was bumped up to the price of your average new release retail game(about $50-$60) this would still be an INSANE financial loss for Wizards. Ok, now they are getting $60 from each person who purchases the game....once.

As opposed to $70-$90 for each JTMS purchased, potentially 4 times(for a whole playset) for a SINGLE CARD!

Making DotP fully customizable would completely tank the market for paper cards, unless they made you pay similar prices for cards in DotP, which would drive away the vast majority of customers, as that is one of the biggest draws of DotP, the fact that you dont have to pay an arm and a leg to be able to play it.

In the end, you would be left with *GASP*  MTGO! Wonder why Wizards always sends people toward MTGO when they ask for a fully customizable DotP......Its a mystery to me....*end sarcasm*
"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."

My point in my first post.  the second was just a "what if" situation.  WoTC can't do what we wish they could without first seeing a valid, profitable reason for doing so.

And I was addressing your "what if" post. It just seems highly unlikely, at least in this point in time to see Wizards try and create a second MTGO for consoles only. 

The next natural progression for Duels of the Planeswalkers would most likely be full deck editing/building. That is, if they ever want to do more with the game. Currently, I believe DotP isn't really fit to handle a full deck editing experience. The card pool just isn't suited for that type of format. It's fairly limited and just isn't balanced like an actual set would be. I can't even imagine a huge diversity in decks that people would attempt to make if they were granted full deck building options over the card pool in Duels2012 right now.

Green, black, and red probably have the best cards so you'd end up seeing a bunch of aggro/midrange decks in those colors. I'd also take a guess and bet Wurmcoil Engine becomes to most played "bomb" in the format. Everyone would end up building "good stuff" decks and tribal themes would be hosed completely because they become even more narrow in deck design. Why play elves when I'm not restricted to these crappy elves? What's the point of playing with illusions when I have access to other color bombs? Why should I even bother playing with any artifact that isn't Wurmcoil Engine because most of them are pretty bad by themselves making Steel Overseer feel left out? The developers would be better off adding more cards to each deck such that with core deck editing, it makes you feel like you're building a deck.

To address the main point of the OP's initial post, I think a Limited format is a little much for the DotP franchise. As sweet as such a feature would be (I love drafting), you basically get unlimited boosters out of this. If you think about it, Wizards makes money off boosters sold, and that's like what 3-6 packs for draft and sealed limited games in real life? It's like $10-15 to draft at a shop, right? So if they added a limited format to DotP, I could draft/seal play an infinite number of times giving me unlimited enterainment value. I feel I already cheat Wizards out of money because I draft my own Pauper cube.

Duels of the Planeswalkers is kind of it's own entity that really can't get too close to "real" Magic in my opinion. Get too close and it's going to creep into the territory of the paper and MTGO products. I don't think Wizards wants that many "competing" products going on at the same time. In fact, I bet if they could, they'd love a unified system that encompassed all it's Magic players. If PCs, consoles and paper players could all somehow play under one system that Wizards had control of, I'd bet they would love that. Just as long as players were buying boosters of course.

@eon That argument shouldnt be part of the discussion as WotC dieant see a dime o fthat 70/80/200 euros and as such won't influence their business model.
Ahh, but it will.

Wizards keeps a very close relationship with the secondary market and has, on many occasions, done things specifically for the purpose of NOT damaging the secondary market of a card.

The best example of this is Black Lotus which WotC has stated they will NEVER reprint as it would be a slap in the face to collectors and would tank the secondary market for the card.

This being a card that goes for $2000+ on the secondary market.

Does WotC see a dime of that money? No, they dont.

Would WotC make a KILLING if they were to reprint that card? Of course.

But even with the potential revinue that reprinting said card would generate, WotC has stated very very clearly that they will NEVER reprint that card, as it would severely damage the value on the secondary market.

Even if WotC is not making money off of the secondary market, they take that market very seriously, and often try very hard not to tank the market. The reason being? They dont want to alienate both the collectors, as well as the player base.

The point I was making is that WotC would not do something that would severely crash the secondary market. This is the reason that MTGO is done the way it is, as MTGO has its own secondary market that thrives.

Again, if they were to make DotP fully customizable, without doing things similarly to how MTGO is handled, there would be NO secondary market for the game, and everyone would be paying chump change for access to everything paper magic/MTGO has to offer, which would tank the secondary market for these formats.....which is something they have been trying NOT to do since they first began releasing cards.

Also, even if we are not talking about the secondary market, how many boosters do you think you would have to purchase to get a full playset of Jace, the Mind Sculptor......I can pretty much assure you that its going to be quite a bit more then $10.
"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
*Warning lots of text* Or perhaps an even better solution (imo) to what has been mentioned back and forth in the comments and in general about the topic is to make a WHOLE NEW GAME that is aside from Magic, but is Magic (meaning plays the exact same way) JUST for consoles/PC. Whole new characters, creatures, spells, story, etc. Sorta like how Phyrexian is, a side kinda thing that's not apart from the coreset (2009/2010/2011/etc) The only thing that will be the same as far as cards is lands and types, no Jace, no Chandra, no massacre wurm, nothing available in today's magic library. That way Wizards give console users a "Magic like" experience but don't hurt their original fanbase (paper back) or MTGO in the slightest. It would be similar to how it is now but more bulkier in cards and full customization. Price increase to $15-20 (just take 2012 and double its content) sounds reasonable depending how much content they add.

DOTP was a bit of a mistake in Wizards case imo. You have the digital game (2012), which is just $10, then you have the exact same cards (strictly 2012 coreset) on paper (a handful more perhaps) for varying prices that well exceed over $10. Hell, a pre-built deck cost $10 and is just 60 cards with a booster! You think possible new MTG players would buy the RL 2012 deck/cards? NO! Not when they can save loads more by buying DOTP instead. So there goes possible $$$ for the TCG. Then you have some people complain "oh why pay $70-200 for Jace when I can use him in DOTP for just $10, derp!." With a new game with new characters/etc you don't have that pressure or expectations from fans since its entirely new. You won't hear anyone say they're being ripped off because they're paying this price when they could be paying this much cheaper price for the exact same thing. You guys get where I'm going with this? and then just like DOTP, they can make near annual games to expand the "franchise" even more. Of course with this idea WotC would have to drop DOTP, but it return it fixes the problems said above and provides a unique experience, not "another way to play" like DOTP is to hardcore traditional players with cards their familiar with.

With this new idea of mines, WotC can add all the things the fans want without giving the finger to the original players who've poured hundreds of dollars into their hobby. And if anything it even acts as a gateway to make even more revenue, as those who play this console/PC game might be interested in the broader and unique experience the other playstyles provide (online/paper) and vice versa. Vets/hardcore players may want a breather and just relax with the new game using unique cards until the next major set releases the traditional way. The new game and core set will alternate, so one is comes out this time of year while the other comes out the other half of the year. Both will be in complete harmony, parallel to each other, not perpendicular like how it is with DOTP. It's essentially adding another fanbase too, not dividing like DOTP is doing (or would do if they allowed full customization or all mtg cards.)

I'm not here to argue with anybody, (so please don't start crap) just purely suggesting an idea ;)

As for customization perhaps they could add 2 modes (to my game idea), since DOTP is supposedly "magic for dummies". The new game could have a standard mode just like how DOTP is now, so new players can get a gist of the competitive side of Magic without getting trumped by veteran players. But then also have a "hardcore" mode, in which players can use fully customizable decks using any cards they want in the game (perhaps unlocked after you beat the campaign) This way it gets the message that WotC is trying to get across while still supplying what Magic is known for to familiar players. Thoughts?