How the Mighty Have Fallen: Wizard's Playtest Up

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The article is up and its ugly -- Bloodmage, Stinking Cloud, Prismatic Beams (among others) all get severe nerf beatdowns.  Guess too many people are picking these in the online CB.

Here is the article:  www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/d...

Let the complaining begin. 

Daren
There are a lot powers that now damage at the end of turn, instead of the beginning, like flaming sphere.  That is a huge hit for them since enemies can move away.

Almost a dozen powers got miss entries.

Fireball still stinks and battle mage is even worse than before.
Fireball still stinks and battle mage is even worse than before.

Ha, Ha.  I know.  I always thought battle mage was a little bit better than its rep [of stinking], but it got nerfed more anyway.  Unbelievable.  I just don't get all of this errata.

It has gotten to a point that you don't want to see your favorite classes listed for "new powers" etc.  since you then have to fear the nerfbat.

WotC can you please just stop.  Just.  Stop.

Daren
I know Stinking Cloud was a great power, but I don't think the 'end of turn' phrasing was necessary.  That just guts it far too completely; no one willingly ends their turn in a cloud.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
Oh no, now we can't abuse damage zones anymore! Please, WotC, just stop nerfing the Wizard, even though it's still the best Controller in the game!
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But the good name never dies of one who has done well. Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But I know one thing that never dies: the glory of the great dead. - [i]Hávamál[/i] D&D 4th Edition Bard builds: The Dashing Swordsman, The Master of Sound and Illusions, The Warrior Skald Captain Morality! (No point in not having fun with it. )
Agreed that 'end of turn' damage for zones is very bad.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Oh no, now we can't abuse damage zones anymore!

If that were the only change then I think it would be fine, since multiple damage per tun was abusive.

But that is far from the only change.  I mean they went as far as limited the Spellstorm extra damage action to only 1 power instead of the mighty 2 it previously could have effected.  Really??  That needed to be nerfed?  Give me a break.

Daren

Drezden, just make sure your favorite class is martial and you will be fine.

I spent more time playing my 1 wizard than any other class, but it was a while ago so I have no idea whether some of these changes are needed.  The charop consensus seemed to be that mages were the #1 controller, but that invokers were right behind them.  And that mages were better than wizards.

Its sad that like priest's shield, ray of frost, cloud of daggers and scorching burst were left alone.  Even with the boosts to some powers, things like spectral ram still seem weaker than twist of space and I am not up enough on wizards to know if there are other better options that level.
Damage at the start of the turn isn't thematic to the role, for what that's worth. By making it the end of the enemy's turn, you can create difficult choices for the target -- stay and take the damage, or move and risk an attack (probably). What I'm saying is that damage at the end of the turn is more control-y. It's worse than damage at the start of the turn, yes, but the bright side is that the powers are even more controllery now (if not as useful). If that is of value to anyone.
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
The main class I play is the wizard and even though I didn't take the damaging powers it's still sad to see the changes. Let's just hope there's enough of an uproar to change it like the Templar.
So  the blurb mention improving wizard encounter powers and actually mentions fire bust by name.

One slight problem ... they didn't actually change fire burst.  It is unchanged (other then happily getting the evocation keyword).  Uggggh.

Daren
Making Zone Damage Once Per Turn: Perfect.
Making it a Static Value: Kind of Lame
Making it End of Turn: To far by far.

Also, my Doomsayer build of yore will cry itself into a bitter sleep tonight as it has had its best daily power stolen. Goodbye Prismatic Joy! Your awesome was long lived and I shall carry on its glory in story and song to my children, and my children's children!

-

No buffs, and a lot of needless Nerfs.

I can't say I blame them for, say, nerfing Destructive Salutation. That power was fifty kinds of heinous. Why the rest of Blood-mage got the kick in the nards is beyond me though. I am also at a loss for why Prismatic _____ lost the Fear Keyword. I get the whole removing the super awesome multi-attack aspect from it, even if it deprives blasters of a daily that actually hits hard that isn't a zone (and, oh wait, look what got taken away).

Why they buffed a bunch of encount powers no one ever uses and ignores the at-wills no one ever uses I can't guess. Why didn't scorching burst get a boost? Are all wizards just expected to take Arc Lightning and Winged Hoard instead now? What about Pyromancers? Huh?

All in all, kind of a disappointment, but nothing that can't be fixed. At least their listening to us now.
I am a: Lawful Good Dragonborn Paladin
Is it just me, or does the new table with the Spellbook entry imply you can always load up on your highest-level daily and utility spells?

E.g. At 5th level it has a 2, and with no restriction other than you can't memorize the same spell twice, that means you could memorize both your level 5 dailies and no level 1 dailies?
Damage at the start of the turn isn't thematic to the role, for what that's worth. By making it the end of the enemy's turn, you can create difficult choices for the target -- stay and take the damage, or move and risk an attack (probably). What I'm saying is that damage at the end of the turn is more control-y. It's worse than damage at the start of the turn, yes, but the bright side is that the powers are even more controllery now (if not as useful). If that is of value to anyone.



Try again. Basically all it does is make those spells utterly useless for control at range.

I guess Wizard was another one of those classes played competently in someone's circus of fools home game, making that pinheaded designer all butthurt over his pathetic wrecked campaign. It's becoming increasingly clear that they're trying to make up for certain design failures by retroactively repeating those failures on their former successes.
I killed Aleena.
So  the blurb mention improving wizard encounter powers and actually mentions fire bust by name.

One slight problem ... they didn't actually change fire burst.  It is unchanged (other then happily getting the evocation keyword).  Uggggh.

Daren



Yeah, the addition of keywords is the best part of this article. Ironically, those changes have no effect whatsoever on the Arcanist.
I killed Aleena.
So  the blurb mention improving wizard encounter powers and actually mentions fire bust by name.

One slight problem ... they didn't actually change fire burst.  It is unchanged (other then happily getting the evocation keyword).  Uggggh.

Daren



Yeah, the addition of keywords is the best part of this article. Ironically, those changes have no effect whatsoever on the Arcanist.

Agreed, the addition of keywords is nice ... for the Mage.

Daren
Are you guys seriously making a ****storm out of this? The CharOp boards, sometimes...

I mean, seriously. Some of your powers got nerfed, alright, and it was unnecessary, but mentioning this article in the same breath as the Templar is overreacting hilariously hard. It's like if somebody went and nerfed Powerful Warning, No Gambit is Wasted, and Join The Crowd for warlords, since people are making the inevitable martial comparisons. The wizard is still a top pick and nothing major has changed.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Zone ping-ponging needed to go, but making them static modifiers, once per turn and end of turn is too much.  Stinking Cloud went from awesome to mediocre, Cloudkill (which already sucked for its level) went from bad to dreadful, Wall of Fire at least escaped unscathed, Evard's Black Tentacles didn't change (I don't think), but had already been nerfed; it's too much.  Like the original article nerf of the Cleric's Turn Undead, they've gone overboard, and nerfed most zone powers multiple times, hitting them both coming and going.
Interesting. I had been expected a sweeping change to zone damage rules that prevented them from be applied more than once a turn, but I never saw such in the end-of-June errata. Looking at the changes to the wizard, it instead looks like they're applying that fix on a power-by-power basis. And while that choice surprises me, I'm quite happy about it. May the age of mega-slide abuse finally begin to draw to a close.

But it looks like they forgot to add the once-a-turn rider to the most common zone of all: Cloud of Daggers. Oops.
Are you guys seriously making a ****storm out of this? The CharOp boards, sometimes...

I mean, seriously. Some of your powers got nerfed, alright, and it was unnecessary, but mentioning this article in the same breath as the Templar is overreacting hilariously hard. It's like if somebody went and nerfed Powerful Warning, No Gambit is Wasted, and Join The Crowd for warlords, since people are making the inevitable martial comparisons. The wizard is still a top pick and nothing major has changed.

But I think the point is that none of those Warlord powers did get nerfed.  So why nerf a whole litany of wizard powers?

Now let me make it clear, I do think multiple zone abuse needed a nerf -- so that's not what I am talking about.  Also, yes, destructive salutation could use a nerf -- since stunning on a miss in a wide zone is a little over the top.

But to apply the nerf bat as extensively as they did is a little much.

Daren
Are you guys seriously making a ****storm out of this? The CharOp boards, sometimes...

I mean, seriously. Some of your powers got nerfed, alright, and it was unnecessary, but mentioning this article in the same breath as the Templar is overreacting hilariously hard. It's like if somebody went and nerfed Powerful Warning, No Gambit is Wasted, and Join The Crowd for warlords, since people are making the inevitable martial comparisons. The wizard is still a top pick and nothing major has changed.

But I think the point is that none of those Warlord powers did get nerfed.  So why nerf a whole litany of wizard powers?

Now let me make it clear, I do think multiple zone abuse needed a nerf -- so that's not what I am talking about.  Also, yes, destructive salutation could use a nerf -- since stunning on a miss in a wide zone is a little over the top.

But to apply the nerf bat as extensively as they did is a little much.

Daren



Because Wizard powers win fights in one turn. No warlord power does that except maybe Relentless Assault. Worse still, Wizards can recycle them with tremendous efficiency. The Warlord and Fighter are powerful because they have very high sustained performance. Wizards have four times the strength of those sustained performances on turn 1 thanks to their dailies. Most of the really good ones need some real nerfs, and the power of their encounters needs a little buffing. Other classes don't have that much game-swinging strength in a single slot.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Making Zone Damage Once Per Turn: Perfect.
Making it a Static Value: Kind of Lame
Making it End of Turn: To far by far.



This

The once per turn thing needed to happen, static damage is kind of painful, and making it end of turn guts the powers to the same extent making Cleric bursts party-unfriendly did. My current Wizard was using both Flaming Sphere and Stinking Cloud, and the changes mean I'm retraining both of them out, and possibly abandoning my Wizard if I don't like what it looks like after I retrain. I was also planning on going Blood Mage, and that isn't happening anymore.


...whatever
What's with nearly every single friggin' spell being Evocation? That seems like a downright bizarre design choice. Yes, we all know that Evocation was hands down the weakest school back in 3.5, but . . . there are hardly any other keywords here! I appreciate wanting to expand the Mage's options (even if it is weird that it makes no difference to the Arcanist), but still, that's just weird.
I have no problems with these changes, at all. Blood Mage is still freaking good, a lot of spells got improved in DPR.
Zone was actually a big problem in some games, now they got clarified.

The title of the thread imho is a big overreaction.
Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

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Hooray for 1/turn zone damage.  When characters devote multiple resources to use Stinking Cloud every encounter at level 20, something needed to go.

Yay to adding Evocation to just about every power.  My Pyromancer/Evoker will greatly enjoy gaining quasi-brutal 1 on a bunch of new powers.  Too bad for arcanists, though...

Boo  to saying that Fire Burst got fixed, then not even adding a miss effect like every other encounter power.  Hopefully this is an oversight that will be quickly fixed.

Moving start-of-turn damage to end-of-turn damage just moves the wizard from strikerish to controllerish.  Doubling up on damage is a striker thing, which is essentially what start-of-turn damage is.  End-of-turn damage is soft control; too bad they didn't up the potential damage to make that control a little harder. 

Note that arcanists can choose cantrips now, so they have access to other books' minor powers. 
I have no problems with these changes, at all. Blood Mage is still freaking good, a lot of spells got improved in DPR.
Zone was actually a big problem in some games, now they got clarified.

The title of the thread imho is a big overreaction.



I agree with you on all points but the first. I don't see anything to recommend Blood Mage for any type of build. You're still going to get better damage, control, and reliability from other PPs. It was that way before too, hence my confusion. D:
I have no problems with these changes, at all. Blood Mage is still freaking good, a lot of spells got improved in DPR.
Zone was actually a big problem in some games, now they got clarified.

The title of the thread imho is a big overreaction.



I agree with you on all points but the first. I don't see anything to recommend Blood Mage for any type of build. You're still going to get better damage, control, and reliability from other PPs. It was that way before too, hence my confusion. D:



A friendly burst 4 as encounter spell, recharge and extra damage on demand and a good large daily. Imho it's still one of the best PPs.

Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)

A friendly burst 4 as encounter spell, recharge and extra damage on demand and a good large daily. Imho it's still one of the best PPs.




With the extra damage on demand being limited to one target, it's pretty crappy; wizards just don't have the HP to make trading damage 1:1 with team monster worthwhile.  Doing it to several monsters was what made the feature good.
Making Zone Damage Once Per Turn: Perfect.
Making it a Static Value: Kind of Lame
Making it End of Turn: To far by far.


Yup, pretty much this. I can handle the first two changes, but moving the damage until the end of your turn just kills it. If it wasn't for that one, I'd probably be OK with the article, for the most part.

Well, except for the fact that Meteor Swarm is still as garbage as it's ever been. Also don't like that Blood Mage got brought down to the other crappy paths, rather than stuff like Battle Mage getting lifted up (good job guys, Arcane Riposte STILL can't hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle!).
I think end of turn damage is an improvement for the game. I'm looking forward to enemies having an incentive to leave my zones... so that I can push them back in for more damage. It's more interesting than just getting an auto boost at the beginning of the monster's turn.
A friendly burst 4 as encounter spell, recharge and extra damage on demand and a good large daily. Imho it's still one of the best PPs.




With the extra damage on demand being limited to one target, it's pretty crappy; wizards just don't have the HP to make trading damage 1:1 with team monster worthwhile.  Doing it to several monsters was what made the feature good.



It is situationally good.
Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

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Hooray for 1/turn zone damage.  When characters devote multiple resources to use Stinking Cloud every encounter at level 20, something needed to go.

I'm just going to assume you're unaware that the Wizard, and other classes but inparticular the Wizard, can one shot anything in the game any time it feels like it by ping ponging. Even after this... whatever term is strong enough to describe this incompetence masquerading as an article. The problem is system wide and changing a power here or there, which is all they've done, will not fix it. They need a general rule. Which they were told by hundreds of people when they asked for feedback in this very forum. Well, a hundred. Not plural. Especially since they are not competent enough to adjust the individual power level of any given power, much less all of them that have this issue. They were even given a rule that if they had implemented it, verbatim, would actually have solved the issue. Being bad at your job is one thing. Someone else doing your job for you better then you do it and you just not taking advantage of it is a special kind of stupid.

Changes lately remind me of the fact that certain animals like to piss in water other animals have drunk from to get rid of the smell. They like the taste better that way. New development staff is just taking everything their predecessors did and changing, not improving or fixing, it.
Agreed that 'end of turn' damage for zones is very bad.

It is actually "enters or end of turn" which is perfect for zones.

Well, it should have been "willingly enters" or "once per turn enters".

Wall of Fire is still "start of turn".
They mention that zones becoming 1/turn might be a system wide change.

But with mostly static damage, I don't really see how you can kill anything by ping-ponging it to death anymore.  The only candidate I see left is Wall of Fire.
They mention that zones becoming 1/turn might be a system wide change.

But with mostly static damage, I don't really see how you can kill anything by ping-ponging it to death anymore.  The only candidate I see left is Wall of Fire.



Doesn't Flame Spiral have a version of ping-pong abuse?
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
They mention that zones becoming 1/turn might be a system wide change.

But with mostly static damage, I don't really see how you can kill anything by ping-ponging it to death anymore.  The only candidate I see left is Wall of Fire.

Well, there are dozens (possibly hundreds actually) left. Sorry to dissapoint.

But really? They've had... six months? And they were told what would fix it? It was a single sentence. A one sentence rule. You know how many sentences were changed or added in the process of modifying the powers in this article to address the issue? More then one.
They mention that zones becoming 1/turn might be a system wide change.

But with mostly static damage, I don't really see how you can kill anything by ping-ponging it to death anymore.  The only candidate I see left is Wall of Fire.



Doesn't Flame Spiral have a version of ping-pong abuse?



Yeah.
Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/14.jpg)

 

A friendly burst 4 as encounter spell, recharge and extra damage on demand and a good large daily. Imho it's still one of the best PPs.



 
Blood Pulse is just a good power, and though it is a burst 3 (not 4), there's no getting around that it's quite useful. Sizeable burst, solid damage, and a nasty control element that seals the whole package. It's a lovely power. It is also, however, the strongest feature of the Blood Mage.

Destructive Salutation is also a hotty, quite a useful power. I really can't say anything against it, it's a good example of what a lvl 20 daily wizard PP power should look like.  

The 1d10/2d10 bonus damage once per round to one enemy is not enough damage to justify even the minor action it costs, nevermind the fact that the wizard has to damage itself to accomplish this. This feature is a net zero in my opinion: You would not ever, should not ever use it in actual play: The wizard is more squishy than the targets he's burning, by and large - and on the targets that *are* less squishy, he doesn't need to employ it.

The finally, the recharge is exactly the equivalent of a Salve of Power. I really don't see that to be a feature worth bragging about. 

By contrast, I really like Arcane Wayfarer, Unseen Mage, even Hermetic Saboteur and the new Spellstorm Mage more, personally. :0
Agreed that 'end of turn' damage for zones is very bad.

It is actually "enters or end of turn" which is perfect for zones.

Well, it should have been "willingly enters" or "once per turn enters".

Wall of Fire is still "start of turn".



"Willingly enters" is a terrible idea. It makes the damage potential negligible, and the control component is probably not worth it at that point.

With this change, it's already "once per turn enters" - from stinking cloud: "a creature can take this damage only once per turn" 

That also means that a creature that starts outside, and walks in doesn't take the damage again when it ends its turn. 
Making Zone Damage Once Per Turn: Perfect.
Making it a Static Value: Kind of Lame
Making it End of Turn: To far by far.


+1

I'm going to add in my opinion of the Blood Mage changes
Making Bolstering Blood 1 target: Absurd, Defenders don't like to trade damage with monsters 1:1, much less squishy Wizards.
Getting rid of Burning Bloods Auto-damage: This feature is now worthless and should be replaced with something that does something (like, the old wording, but you don't regain the HP from the 2nd wind)
Destructive Salutation: Stun on a miss was too powerful, Stunned (save ends) on a hit wasn't.

The BB and DS changes make this PP not worth taking anymore, it's no longer a "go to" path and is now a ... I don't really know what.  I guess my comments about Blood Mage being the best Blaster Wizard PP were taken as an insult to whomever wrote the Enigmatic Mage PP.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
 

A friendly burst 4 as encounter spell, recharge and extra damage on demand and a good large daily. Imho it's still one of the best PPs.



 
Blood Pulse is just a good power, and though it is a burst 3 (not 4), there's no getting around that it's quite useful. Sizeable burst, solid damage, and a nasty control element that seals the whole package. It's a lovely power. It is also, however, the strongest feature of the Blood Mage.

Destructive Salutation is also a hotty, quite a useful power. I really can't say anything against it, it's a good example of what a lvl 20 daily wizard PP power should look like.  

The 1d10/2d10 bonus damage once per round to one enemy is not enough damage to justify even the minor action it costs, nevermind the fact that the wizard has to damage itself to accomplish this. This feature is a net zero in my opinion: You would not ever, should not ever use it in actual play: The wizard is more squishy than the targets he's burning, by and large - and on the targets that *are* less squishy, he doesn't need to employ it.

The finally, the recharge is exactly the equivalent of a Salve of Power. I really don't see that to be a feature worth bragging about. 

By contrast, I really like Arcane Wayfarer, Unseen Mage, even Hermetic Saboteur and the new Spellstorm Mage more, personally. :0



I automatically add 1 to burst spells, but this isn't a Wizard encounter spell.
The daily recharge is actually a really good power imho, and the daily power is a friendly big daze.

Anyway, i'm going to re-rate BM to blue in my book, since it's on par with Arcane Wayfarer and Spellstorm Mage. Hermetic Saboteur imho is a little worse. Unseen Mage is two step worse.

Edit: bolstering blood is a free action, not minor action.

Chauntea/Lathander/Torm Cleric since 1995 My husband married a DM - καλὸς καὶ ἀγαθός

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