Autumn Nymph

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Just wondering what Char-Op's opinion is of this monster:

www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/mo...

Seems a bit strong for a Standard? How would you adjust it as a DM? 
Strong how, exactly? It's no slouch, sure, but what specifically do you find to be overpowered about it?
Strong how, exactly? It's no slouch, sure, but what specifically do you find to be overpowered about it?



Its a standard monster (not elite) with the ability to attack twice per round (Standard and Move). That is basically double its normal damage output... (typical of an Elite). Even for a skirmisher, that seems high (2d6+9 x 2)

On top of that it has a recharge stun power...but the damage is low and its short range, so that seems more reasonable to me.
that thing wont be around to recharge its stun, unless the party's not doing it right. if it's not dead before its next turn (focus fire between a striker and the defender, or some leader help,) then it's likely that it's going to be too messed up. Of course this assumes someone made their knowledge check. Worst case scenario, someone gets double smacked, or stunned, and the party panics and goes into murder mode to keep it off them. So yeah, it's not a big deal.
The double attack or attack+move/attack is one of the standard configurations for a skirmisher.  Otherwise it is attacking during a move as a standard which often allows for hiding and then a move while hidden.  Or they just have a really good move action power.  Sometimes it is a combination of 2 and 3.

The recharge stun at 8th might be a bit beefy (but it's only on a 6).  No problem to make it a daze and add a few points of damage but that's boring.  It is so much more fun to watch the party react... "Holy c*%p she can stun.  Kill her!"  Good times....
Sure an optimized group could probably kill it. But what if there are 5 of these? (for a party of 5) or what if the party is all level 6, etc?

The point isn't to compare it to a party of optimized characters, but rather compare it to other skirmishers of its level...

Take a newer monster Drow Venomblade -- it has to recharge to get two attacks per round. My problem with the Nymph is, it basically can just do its 2 attacks per round without any restrictions or requiring any type of condition (prone, CA, etc.). I doubt you can find a [modern] skirmisher with that kind of ability. Keep in mind, its average damage per attack is level+8, which fits the new expressions -- and now double that (without requiring anything).

That and a stun (save ends) for level 8 seems a bit much combined together. It seems more like a Paragon+ monster.
It's fine.
The damage is par for the course (I used a L3 Dark Sun Elite Brute that could attack twice and deal 1d10+7 per hit; a L8 Standard Skirmisher is fine with 2d6+9 per hit)

The stun may be troublesome, but as long as it's not an area attack, then it's not that bad.  Superior Will exists, giving a decent chance to avoid the stun.

It's fine.
Not to disagree but this thing really is very powerful. Compare it to the Spirehorn Behemoth, a level 9 elite brute.
The Behemoth has a double attack that does 3d10+5 each hit as a brute. This nymph hits twice for 2d8+9. Thats only a hair less damage.

This nymph can stun with a vs NAD attack and also punch someone twice for an average of 17 damage each.

Thats really brutal on a normal monster chasis.
Yes, but the nymph attack takes 2 actions, vs the spirehorn's 1, so daze screws it up.  Not to mention 89 hp total compared to 237.  The chances of the nymph being dropped before it can do something are way higher than the spirehorn.
She can't do the double attack and stun in the same round though.  Really though it's all about what she's paired with.  Give her two soliders to guard her and it could be a bit more annoying.  Round it out with an elite controller the party wants to kill even more and maybe she hangs around long enough to stun two or three times if she's lucky.  But that wouldn't be her fault!

Remember this is a creature that could inflict save or die in previous edtions...
I agree that it's fine, but with the idea that the DM is pairing it with appropriate monsters.  It is somewhat more threatening than other comparable standards, so keep that in mind when creating the encounter, and make it viable for the PCs to focus that one first.  If they don't take that chance, their fault.
YMMV. For some groups who are not used to focus fire and dealing with status effects this can be a really mean monster but for a group that is, it is a fun challenge but it's health is low enough 2 strikers can kill it in one round or even one optimized striker can nova through this in one round. Controllers can controll it and leaders can nullify the stun and enable the faster kill. A defender can get in it's face, Take the stun and say "I did my job, go get her you pack of armed psychos". This would have to be done before the stun takes feffect otherwize you just get a brief "Mmmpft!" noise.
You know whats better then getting dazed? Stunning PCS with a Nymph Power.
If I'm building an encounter, assuming I was making a tough enchounter, I could have 3 Spirehorns or 6 Nymphs vs a party.  6 Range Stuns vs a NAD at level 8 WILL stun someone, and then the Nymphs can use their move and punch power to all bounce around and put 6-9 punches into someone. The Three Behemoths at best would do a total of 6 attacks with zero action denial and zero movement boosting riders.

The Nymphs can also impose a neat Save Ends damage as well as their move and punch.

Finally the Nymphs do not have "much less" HP then a Behemoth. TWO Nymphs have about 20% less and almost double the offensive power. Additionally controlling 2 skirmishers is much harder then controlling a single fat brute.

12 Punches vs 6 Behemoth Stomps, math doesnt lie thats just double as good.
I use Behemoths very VERY often as my "go to" big brute creature and I can personally attest to how brutal they can be.

Nymphs could be far worse. With Whisper game a pack of nymphs could open on the party with a barrage of Whisper Games (vs Will!) then all rush forward with their move punch. The entire party would be then taking 5 bouncing pyschic damage, and if the party burns down the nymphs too fast, people could be exploding for 30-45 damage as their brains squirt out their ears. Thats 3/4 of someone's health at level 8.
You know whats better then getting dazed? Stunning PCS with a Nymph Power.
If I'm building an encounter, assuming I was making a tough enchounter, I could have 3 Spirehorns or 6 Nymphs vs a party.  6 Range Stuns vs a NAD at level 8 WILL stun someone, and then the Nymphs can use their move and punch power to all bounce around and put 6-9 punches into someone. The Three Behemoths at best would do a total of 6 attacks with zero action denial and zero movement boosting riders.

The Nymphs can also impose a neat Save Ends damage as well as their move and punch.

Finally the Nymphs do not have "much less" HP then a Behemoth. TWO Nymphs have about 20% less and almost double the offensive power. Additionally controlling 2 skirmishers is much harder then controlling a single fat brute.

12 Punches vs 6 Behemoth Stomps, math doesnt lie thats just double as good.



But as a DM your job isn't to beat the PCs. Challenge them sure, but your goal isn't to TPK every chance you can.  Yes Stun is a bitch, but thats what leaders are for. Almost every leader by 8 has at least 2 save granters, and some leaders (namely clerics) have an at-will save granter. and while two nymphs have good HP if one dies half the hitting power is gone, not the same if you knock the behemoth down to bloodied.

It's a matter of perception. I think rust monsters and cockatrices are powerful for their level, but they're something you base a combat around because when players see them they go "oh god no!" And either try to avoid them or kill them as quick as they can. You don't use 3 of them in every combat combined with monsters that specifically take advantage of their abilities.
People keep saying "its fine, we can kill it one round with strikers" -- but that really isn't an argument.

Keep in mind, we're comparing to equivalent standard monsters, not players. What if there were 6 of these things? (like Borris_Bear said) I could make a monster that does 4x the damage (for its level) and I might hear "its fine, our strikers can kill it" -- yeah but so what?

The point is "Standard" monsters have a baseline for their damage and/or condition infliction potential ...and I assert that the Autumn Nymph goes WAY beyond that baseline...

If you want to argue the "DM's job isn't to beat the PCs", then clearly this monster needs adjusting since it doesn't follow the baseline challenge. If I want to increase the challenge, I can easily just add on a level, or 2 or 3, etc...but when the baseline of a monster for its level is well above the norm, that will skew the results.

If you took the Autumn Nymph, doubled its HP, gave it +2 saves and an action point...it would be a pretty good Elite (having just the right amount of powers and potential).
Ok so what do you want us to say? If it's not fine then whatever, why is it important? Likewise if it's fine like everyone's been saying, why is this a thing?


What are you trying to get out of this thread exactly?
I respect CharOp views when it comes to game balance, structured encounters, expectations etc. These are the kind of people that crunch numbers based on an expected encounter level.

If an encounter level 7 accidentally included a level 20 demon in it...something is clearly wrong...and char-op analysis wouldn't quite work in that situation. So given "expectations of an encounter of level X", is this Standard Monster within expectations for its level?

Saying that a 2 strikers can kill it in one round is not really relevant. I could take any equal level encounter with a standard and expect the same thing. Regardless of how much damage it does, if it has the same (roughly) HP 2 strikers should kill it. Does that mean its ok to let it do 20? 50? 100 damage per attack? Taking things to extreme makes it obvious there is a baseline ...and I want other's opinions of what that baseline is...

 

This creature is within the bandwidth that is considered baseline.   With the right encounter synergy including her might stand out from the 250 or so other encounters in a campaign.

For example the damn troll/quickling encounter in Scales of War will always rank up there in terms of annoying things I've had the pleasure of killing.

Skirmishers are supposed to be that way!

I think they're overpowered. We fought multiple Autumn Nymphs in an encounter once and it wasn't pretty at all.

It actually gets worse due to that all Heroic tier Nymphs are rather nasty:
Spring Nymph has Sleep as a spell and Dominate recharge on save.
Wood Nymph has a remove from play option that recharges on save. 
Autumn has a Stun

So put them all together with a party of 4? Watch party have one dominated character, one unconscious character, a stunned character, and another character in a tree...
I think they're overpowered. We fought multiple Autumn Nymphs in an encounter once and it wasn't pretty at all.

It actually gets worse due to that all Heroic tier Nymphs are rather nasty:
Spring Nymph has Sleep as a spell and Dominate recharge on save.
Wood Nymph has a remove from play option that recharges on save. 
Autumn has a Stun

So put them all together with a party of 4? Watch party have one dominated character, one unconscious character, a stunned character, and another character in a tree...



Yeah same situation here...we probably played the same LFR module.

We managed to eek it out with a lucky string of crits by the one striker in our group who managed to not get utterly shutdown like the rest of us.

We were a fairly optimized group too.
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