I Want the Old Realms Back

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With 5th Edition on the horizon, WotC needs to ask themselves some serious questions. Including how they will handle the Forgotten Realms.

The Realms are one of the things that have kept me playing D&D instead of Basic Fantasy or Pathfinder, but 4th Edition screwed them up to the point of barley being better than the core world. This makes me mad.

They really had no reason to introduce the Spellplegue other than to justify the 4e system, which really isn't a good reason. They have killed off interesting characters, removed deities for no reason, castrated the cosmology, and squeezed the last bit of interesting-ness of the characters they decided to keep alive. The only thing I like better about the 4e realms to the extra fluff they gave to Menzoberranzan, which to me is the best part of the setting.

I think it would be best if they went back to the pre-Spellplegue Realms. They could fix some mistakes they made and perhaps shift emphasis on some things, but the core concept would be very close to what they had in 3e. This would make the GOOD content relevant again, and reverse most of the damage they did to the beloved setting.
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With 5th Edition on the horizon Just a forum rumor, WotC needs to ask themselves some serious questions. Including how they will handle the Forgotten Realms.

The Realms are one of the things that have kept me playing D&D instead of Basic Fantasy or Pathfinder, but 4th Edition screwed them up to the point of barley being better than the core world. This makes me mad.

They really had no reason to introduce the Spellplegue other than to justify the 4e system, which really isn't a good reason. They have killed off interesting characters, removed deities for no reason, castrated the cosmology, and squeezed the last bit of interesting-ness of the characters they decided to keep alive. The only thing I like better about the 4e realms to the extra fluff they gave to Menzoberranzan, which to me is the best part of the setting.

I think it would be best if they went back to the pre-Spellplegue Realms. They could fix some mistakes they made and perhaps shift emphasis on some things, but the core concept would be very close to what they had in 3e. This would make the GOOD content relevant again, and reverse most of the damage they did to the beloved setting.



Fixed that for you.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

With 5th Edition on the horizon, WotC needs to ask themselves some serious questions. Including how they will handle the Forgotten Realms.

The Realms are one of the things that have kept me playing D&D instead of Basic Fantasy or Pathfinder, but 4th Edition screwed them up to the point of barley being better than the core world. This makes me mad.

They really had no reason to introduce the Spellplegue other than to justify the 4e system, which really isn't a good reason. They have killed off interesting characters, removed deities for no reason, castrated the cosmology, and squeezed the last bit of interesting-ness of the characters they decided to keep alive. The only thing I like better about the 4e realms to the extra fluff they gave to Menzoberranzan, which to me is the best part of the setting.

I think it would be best if they went back to the pre-Spellplegue Realms. They could fix some mistakes they made and perhaps shift emphasis on some things, but the core concept would be very close to what they had in 3e. This would make the GOOD content relevant again, and reverse most of the damage they did to the beloved setting.



I disagree. The Realms needed a good flushing. While I would have preferred the setting to be flushed entirely as an RPG setting (they could keep it around for the novels), at least the Spellplague and the 100 year jump in the timeline made the Realms somewhat interesting again. The characters they killed off are the same characters that render OUR characters obsolete. The only reason the setting characters aren't doing all the things we are doing, except better, is because they have more important things to be taking care of that we couldn't handle in our wildest dreams. And when we finally do reach that level, there is another group of NPCs exactly like the ones who overshadowed us before.

The deities removed were a)redundant and b)servants of other deities. They still exist, for the most part, they are just largely undefined as the demigod servants of the greater gods.

All of that being said, if you still have all of your older material, why can't you simply set the Realms in your campaign to whatever time you want to? All the NPC descriptions are still valid, and the only ones you need to develop 4E stats for are the ones that you actually plan for your PCs to fight. The rest of it is just fluff, which really exists independant of edition.

Let those of us who want a more interesting Realms, where our characters might actually make a difference, have the 4E Realms. You already have your Realms, unless you are suggesting that there is some real value in simply reprinting old Realms fluff and adding 4E statblocks.

Here's hoping that 5E, may it be a long way off, advances the Realms even further, and not back to the stagnant pit that it was in the past.

BTW, 2008 called and wants its thread back.


BTW, 2008 called and wants its thread back.




and you didnt tell them about the DDI fiasco?!?!?

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

People said the same stuff back in the 2e days when the Time of Troubles happened.  Relax.  I can sympathize with your affection for a particular setting but in the end you get to control what happens in your game.  Use the elements you like, ignore the rest and create things you think will make it better.  It's your game, play it how you want.

WoTC is going to do whatever they think will sell more FR.  Some will like the new stuff and some won't.  This is pretty much how it goes every time they release anything.

I dislike FR because I don't like worlds that are so well-defined but I still have many FR game books.  Why is that?  Cause there are good ideas to steal in every version of it, especially when I can buy them used for dirt cheap.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”


BTW, 2008 called and wants its thread back.




and you didnt tell them about the DDI fiasco?!?!?





Heh!

Part of the reason I used "2008 called..." is because I wanted to see that cartoon again. :D

"I want the Old Realms back"

Well I don't.  I like the "new" ones.
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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
With 5th Edition on the horizon being currently nothing more then a rumor being spread by trolls, WotC needs to ask themselves some serious questions. none of which really Including how they will handle the Forgotten Realms, at least immediately.

The Realms are one of the things that have kept me playing most boring and generic fantasy settings at this point in D&D instead of alongside Basic Fantasy or Pathfinder, which i usually overlook for something like Eberron and Dark Sun due to their rather different takes on familiar concepts, but 4th Edition screwed them shook things up to the point of barley being better than the core world actually peaking my interest. This makes me mad happy.

They really had no a very good reason to introduce the Spellplegue other than to justify the 4e system, which really isn't a good reason. They have killed off interesting characters that exist at this point to overshadow the PCs rather then work alongside them, removed deities for no reason because the setting was over-bloated with far too many of them, castrated the cosmology... not that honestly i cared for it much, and squeezed the last bit of interesting-ness of the characters they decided to keep alive made it so it's now up to the PCs to be the central heros rather then second ringers to drizz't and elminister. The only thing I like better about the 4e realms to the extra fluff they gave to Menzoberranzan, which to me is the best part of the setting.



i rewrote your post and bolded what would be my feelings on the changes done to FR. 

to me, honestly, the old realms were kinda boring. lots of "ooohhh... big scary NPCs doing big scary things!" and most of the time it always felt as though the PCs had no place in the world outside of playing 2nd ringer or go-fer to the bigger names. when "big fancy named NPC" has the time to hunt down a group of low-level nobodies and give them a quest, then reply with "i'm too busy to do it myself" it's funny to see the look on their faces when you quip "you could've saved time by doing it instead of hunting for us, you know?"

outside of that, i've always found the realms to be rather generic and boring... merging alongside grayhawk and dragonlance into one big "fantasy" setting, that while i knew and understood the basic differences, it was far too same-y on a smaller player-viewed scale... i've played in a lot of FR games that if it weren't for the fact that i knew it was FR, i could've sworn it was grayhawk or just "homebrew fantasy world #00543-5423"

the spellplague shakeup at least drew attention to the setting from me, which is far more then anything that happened in the previous edition, which didn't seem to change much from the 2nd edition FR. while FR still isn't my thing, i much rather the shaken and stirred FR as compared to the non-shaken, non-stirred one.
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I disagree. The Realms needed a good flushing. While I would have preferred the setting to be flushed entirely as an RPG setting (they could keep it around for the novels), at least the Spellplague and the 100 year jump in the timeline made the Realms somewhat interesting again. The characters they killed off are the same characters that render OUR characters obsolete. The only reason the setting characters aren't doing all the things we are doing, except better, is because they have more important things to be taking care of that we couldn't handle in our wildest dreams. And when we finally do reach that level, there is another group of NPCs exactly like the ones who overshadowed us before.


That's not exactly true. Every NPC is optional, and the DM can exclude any of them if they feel they overshadow the party. I think it is best if they keep them around so they make interesting novel characters, even if they don't actually come into play.


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The deities removed were a)redundant and b)servants of other deities. They still exist, for the most part, they are just largely undefined as the demigod servants of the greater gods.
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I can accept that.


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All of that being said, if you still have all of your older material, why can't you simply set the Realms in your campaign to whatever time you want to? All the NPC descriptions are still valid, and the only ones you need to develop 4E stats for are the ones that you actually plan for your PCs to fight. The rest of it is just fluff, which really exists independant of edition.
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I do still have the 3e Forgotten Realms book, and that is what I use. I still want a Forgotten Realms book with relevant stats and the beautiful formatting found in more recent publications.
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In all seriousness...

Do you still have your old Forgotten Realms books with all the fluff and maps and ten thousand gods and 50+ languages and 30+ NPCs designed to make your players feel like little kids playing adventure while the "big boys" do the real world saving?

(Bah, sorry... I really do dislike FR)

Anyhow, if you've still got these books, feel free to run any system you want using that fluff.  Run Exalted in Calimshan, 2e in 3.5 Waterdeep, 4e all over the place... It very much does not matter.  You're welcome to run "old Forgotten Realms" (which is actually "new Forgotten Realms" to some folks) any time you want.

If, however, you're looking for them to publish more about what your'e calling "old Forgotten Realms," then I can only ask what more you think there actually is to publish?  Seriously, there are (very literally) thousands of pages of published material for FR in 3.5 alone.  I'm not sure what could possibly be added.
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The amount of printed (and still widely available, near me) 3.5 material for FR and Eberron is one of the key factors in why I've never minded the 4e "Print 2 books (and an adventure) for each campaign setting" approach.  With Eberron (my "cup o' tea"), I already have an absolute ton of material to work with - and I don't even have all of it!  I can't even imagine the amount of material one would have to work with for "Old FR" if they wanted it.  The number of books they released for FR in 3.5 alone was just staggering (or it always seemed that way in stores).
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
The key Forgotten Realms selling point for me is Menzoberranzan, which to me is the heart and soul of the setting. I have loved it ever since reading the War of the Spider Queen books. If they would publish a book akin to Neverwinter detailing every inch the City of Spiders, I would probably embrace the new Realms.
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The key Forgotten Realms selling point for me is Menzoberranzan, which to me is the heart and soul of the setting. I have loved it ever since reading the War of the Spider Queen books. If they would publish a book akin to Neverwinter detailing every inch the City of Spiders, I would probably embrace the new Realms.



www.amazon.com/Menzoberranzan-Boxed-Adva...

You can thank me later.

Of course, this is 2e, but hey, it's still got FLAVAH.

Consider this my good deed for the day.  I hate Drow, Drizzt sucks and I'd like to see Menzoberranzan nuked.  But I'm glad you like it!

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

why would they need to release a new Menzoberranzan book?
There should be little enough changes to that city that the old material is still good, and what changes there are would have been listed in the FRCG and the FRPG.

Really as much as the fan boys love to whine about it, the realms reallly was to over developed after 3 editions and needed a major reset button, so they could actually start growing it again, and turn it into a place where there is a reason to play heroric tier other then dungeon crawls. 

Add to that the fact that there realms was basically only the worlds Europe and most of the rest was developed as well, and the need for an upheval gets increased.  
Yeah, I used to own the Menzobarrenzan boxed set and, IIRC, it was 95% fluff.  Fluff is easy to move from one edition to another.  Heck its easy to move from one GAME to another.  

while FR still isn't my thing, i much rather the shaken and stirred FR as compared to the non-shaken, non-stirred one.

So with other words: you're still no FR customer and former FR customers are driven away. So what in this situation for WotC?

In an older Dungeon magazine prison mail column an employeed once answered a reader's complaint about putting a devil on the cover with "you should not aim at pleasing your detractors you will only estrange your actual customers"


FR was the most successfull setting and by suddenly aiming it at all who actually didn't like FR and alienating a lot of people who did like FR the result what that most non-likers still don't like it enough to actually buy it while many fans actually stopped buying it.


The FR boards are basically dead and by now could be folded into a single board to handel the astonishing rate of less than one post per week



i felt the same way when i started 4e too man, but after i actually read some of the new 4e realms novels and gave the campaign and player's guides a read through i realized that the realms are still pretty much the same. its really easy to handwave away things you dont like and expand and embrace the things you do like.

for its gotten to the point that the only things i actively dislike with any real passion are the dragonborn and the fact that eladrin have those stupid monochromatic eyes.
while FR still isn't my thing, i much rather the shaken and stirred FR as compared to the non-shaken, non-stirred one.

So with other words: you're still no FR customer and former FR customers are driven away. So what in this situation for WotC?



Scenario A:
WotC publishes some reasonably new material for FR, but by and wide FR is still FR.  Some important things were changed (just like they've done with every edition switch before, and actually sometimes 'just because') but there is new history, some new geography, and new characters. (or, more apt, a notable lack of Cannon Sues.)  Fans complain.  

"You changed it, now it sucks!  It's just not FR anymore, I want [whatever] back!  I know I can actually still use all the old material to run Elminster-saves-the-day-while-the-PCs-stand-around-trying-to-look-competent stories until my eyes dry out in my sockets, but I want 'new' stuff that is actually the 'old' stuff that is really 'new' stuff to someone else with similar complaints!!!"

Scenario B:
WotC publishes a reprint of 3.5 FR with 4e mechanics.  FANS COMPLAIN.  

"It's the same, now it sucks!  You didn't change anything!  this is just lazy!  this really could have used an update and I don't know why anyone would even buy this in the first place because it's just the same recycled stuff you printed eight years ago!  What is this i don't even..."



Now, were I in WotC's place, I'd rather hear the first complaint than the second, because I would prefer to be grumped at by fans for making changes that were not easy, but needed to be done, instead of griped out by the fans because I didn't do any work at all.
Jackonomicon™ It's not always safe for work, but it's great for play. It's my blog, yo.
FR was the most successfull setting and by suddenly aiming it at all who actually didn't like FR and alienating a lot of people who did like FR the result what that most non-likers still don't like it enough to actually buy it while many fans actually stopped buying it.

That said, Forgotten Realms, as it existed in prior editions, could not be made compliant with certain of the design imperatives of 4th edition without subjecting the setting to radical changes. The gods meddled too much; too much of the map was defined by the stable borders of powerful nations; too many world-shaking cataclysms had been narrowly averted by canonical NPCs to make the average PC party's contributions feel especially worthwhile.

In order to make the Realms color within the lines of 4th edition, the gods had to be pushed to well beyond arm's length, long-peaceful lands had to fall into barbarism and chaos, and a crisis too potent for any of the "big gun" NPCs to stop had to level the playing field.

I can't make an objective statement as to whether these were good changes or bad ones - I like certain things about both the pre- and post-Spellplague Realms, and both in roughly equal measure - but it was necessary if the Realms were to be published at all during 4th edition.
Yeah, I used to own the Menzobarrenzan boxed set and, IIRC, it was 95% fluff.  Fluff is easy to move from one edition to another.  Heck its easy to move from one GAME to another.  


I live in Canada, so I can't actually get my hands on that. Wish I could.

i felt the same way when i started 4e too man, but after i actually read some of the new 4e realms novels and gave the campaign and player's guides a read through i realized that the realms are still pretty much the same. its really easy to handwave away things you dont like and expand and embrace the things you do like.

for its gotten to the point that the only things i actively dislike with any real passion are the dragonborn and the fact that eladrin have those stupid monochromatic eyes.


Good advice.
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while FR still isn't my thing, i much rather the shaken and stirred FR as compared to the non-shaken, non-stirred one.

So with other words: you're still no FR customer and former FR customers are driven away. So what in this situation for WotC?


actually i bought the FR PHB because of the changes. the only other FR thing i bought was an old FR boxset that was 2nd hand.

while i'm not a fan of the setting, the changes were enough to draw my interest and i do find the reworked FR more palatable as a player. i'd far rather play in the new FR then the old one at the least. it's still not my preferred cup of tea, but removing the majority pre-existing named NPCs who were the real movers and shakers to focusing more on letting the PCs become the next "named" characters was a good move IMO.
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"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2
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Yeah, I used to own the Menzobarrenzan boxed set and, IIRC, it was 95% fluff.  Fluff is easy to move from one edition to another.  Heck its easy to move from one GAME to another.  


I live in Canada, so I can't actually get my hands on that. Wish I could.


I live in Newfoundland, and I have physically seen copies of the old boxed set. 
Sorry, but living in Canada is not an excuse for not being able to get pretty much any RPG product. I managed to get a copy of the Eclipse Phase core book before amazon.ca had it listed simply by asking a local dealer to check with his supliers, and that same dealer once showed me a list of what he could get in for L5R and there were boxes there from sets that were nearly 10 years old.  
That and ebay shipping costs are not that bad on alot of products, a little more then normally but seeing as it cost me less then $30 to get a copy of the old red box set of ebay last year...
yeah, i have to agree with sjmcc13.

we have 2 copies of the BECMI in my group. i've got the 2nd ed Dark Sun Box Set, this FR Box Set and a 2nd hand copy of Battlesystem... among other things.

we also live in Charlottetown, PE where there is only one real RPG game supplier in town, the Comic Hunter (can you guess it's main product?).
3rd ed SRD, character sheets, errata & free modules 4th ed test drive - modules, starter rules, premade characters and character builder & character sheet, errata Free maps and portraits, dice, printable graph paper, campaign managing website, image manipulation program + token maker & zone markers

"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2
Ugh is 5th Edition really on the way? I just bought a bunch of this 4th Edition stuff.
Ugh is 5th Edition really on the way? I just bought a bunch of this 4th Edition stuff.



'On the way' as in 'eventually'?  Yes.  Every game system puts out new editions periodically.
'On the way' as in 'in development, coming soon'?  No, that's just trolls stirring up trouble.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I feel your pain man, I think they went overboard with the changes.....
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
>mfw OP thinks he can't use is old books in 4e, or in any game he wants for that matter

*snicker*
I feel your pain man, I think they went overboard with the changes.....



I don't know about you, sfdragon, but personally I am just impressed that someone owned up to being a fan of FR on the General boards. I would have thought that going to a Hunting rally wearing a deer costume would be a safer endeavour!

My approach to the NPCs of previous editions.

Show
I always saw the High Level NPCs as shepherds of the Realms not its defenders. Making sure that not too many sheep were lost as they milled around (as they are wont to do) and bringing on the young'uns into the job. In that way a shepherd never has time to go and hunt down all of the wolves but is pretty dashed effective at keeping them away from the sheep when they rear their heads.
"It was a puzzle why things were always dragged kicking and screaming. No one ever seemed to want to, for example, lead them gently by the hand." - Terry Pratchett
In order to make the Realms color within the lines of 4th edition playable as a campaign setting to run a real life game in, the gods had to be pushed to well beyond arm's length, long-peaceful lands had to fall into barbarism and chaos, and a crisis too potent for any of the "big gun" NPCs to stop had to level the playing field.



This
...whatever

FR was the most successfull setting and by suddenly aiming it at all who actually didn't like FR and alienating a lot of people who did like FR the result what that most non-likers still don't like it enough to actually buy it while many fans actually stopped buying it.


The FR boards are basically dead and by now could be folded into a single board to handel the astonishing rate of less than one post per week




To be honest, I'd love to know how the novel sales have been impacted by the rather massive drop in continued setting support for 4e versus 3.x.

You're right about the FR boards here being dead. Other fan forums for FR are similarly ghost towns by comparison to at any other point in the game's history. It's unfortunate. The fire and forget approach to settings has really done them all a disservice. Plus the apparent design focus for 4e FR that seemed almost entirely set towards appeasing those folks who didn't like bits about the setting rather than catering to those who enjoyed it as it was. Evolution is the norm for such shared worlds, but what they did honestly seemed to be more a case of the 4e design team making a clean start because they didn't have as many people on staff who knew enough about the setting to really continue supporting it unless they more or less did a clean break. TBH they would have been better served by just making a new setting rather than turning FR into something very, very different.
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FR was the most successfull setting and by suddenly aiming it at all who actually didn't like FR and alienating a lot of people who did like FR the result what that most non-likers still don't like it enough to actually buy it while many fans actually stopped buying it.


The FR boards are basically dead and by now could be folded into a single board to handel the astonishing rate of less than one post per week




To be honest, I'd love to know how the novel sales have been impacted by the rather massive drop in continued setting support for 4e versus 3.x.

You're right about the FR boards here being dead. Other fan forums for FR are similarly ghost towns by comparison to at any other point in the game's history. It's unfortunate. The fire and forget approach to settings has really done them all a disservice. Plus the apparent design focus for 4e FR that seemed almost entirely set towards appeasing those folks who didn't like bits about the setting rather than catering to those who enjoyed it as it was. Evolution is the norm for such shared worlds, but what they did honestly seemed to be more a case of the 4e design team making a clean start because they didn't have as many people on staff who knew enough about the setting to really continue supporting it unless they more or less did a clean break. TBH they would have been better served by just making a new setting rather than turning FR into something very, very different.



I didn't hate FR because of what it was. I disliked that it really wasn't a good campaign to run a game in. A game needs empty space to explore, and for the PCs to be the center of the story. Old FR had serious problems with both of those things.
...whatever
Ugh is 5th Edition really on the way? I just bought a bunch of this 4th Edition stuff.



'On the way' as in 'eventually'?  Yes.  Every game system puts out new editions periodically.
'On the way' as in 'in development, coming soon'? In my opinion No, that's just trolls stirring up trouble.



Fixed that for you!
Josha, if you want the Old Realms back, why don't you quit being such a spineless wimp? I think the 3rd sentence applies especially to you.

FR was the most successfull setting and by suddenly aiming it at all who actually didn't like FR and alienating a lot of people who did like FR the result what that most non-likers still don't like it enough to actually buy it while many fans actually stopped buying it.


The FR boards are basically dead and by now could be folded into a single board to handel the astonishing rate of less than one post per week




To be honest, I'd love to know how the novel sales have been impacted by the rather massive drop in continued setting support for 4e versus 3.x.

You're right about the FR boards here being dead. Other fan forums for FR are similarly ghost towns by comparison to at any other point in the game's history. It's unfortunate. The fire and forget approach to settings has really done them all a disservice. Plus the apparent design focus for 4e FR that seemed almost entirely set towards appeasing those folks who didn't like bits about the setting rather than catering to those who enjoyed it as it was. Evolution is the norm for such shared worlds, but what they did honestly seemed to be more a case of the 4e design team making a clean start because they didn't have as many people on staff who knew enough about the setting to really continue supporting it unless they more or less did a clean break. TBH they would have been better served by just making a new setting rather than turning FR into something very, very different.



I didn't hate FR because of what it was. I disliked that it really wasn't a good campaign to run a game in. A game needs empty space to explore, and for the PCs to be the center of the story. Old FR had serious problems with both of those things.



That is 100% your problem, not a problem of the setting.  If powerful NPC's somehow showed up in your games then it sounds like someone failed to have control.

I get so tired of this BS excuse. "Oh the powerful NPC's kept showing up in our games."  Well unless those NPC's are actually aware then they don't show up all by themselves. 

Bottem line is Wizards F--ed up big time with the way they did the Realms and they have paid for it. 

If you want an empty setting then you need to play a homebrew.  Campaigns are meant to be full of history and NPC's, that is the whole reason behind a premade setting.
I love how a lot of the FR haters are DragonLance lovers, a setting build around a bunch of NPCs who basically do the only quests doable in the setting.

If FR's changes were so popular and what the fans really wnated, why are Ed Greenwood's Eye on the Realms articles editionless?

But you know, 4e was build for people who do not like flavor, so of course they had to mutilate the setting with the most flavor.



I love both FR and DL.
Troll-post is troll-post, but still, this is such nonsense it needs to be pointed out:
I love how a lot of the FR haters are DragonLance lovers


They are?
Honestly, in almost every situation I've seen FR disparaged as a setting, I see Dragonlance and Greyhawk listed right alongside it as "Generic Fantasy Settings" (tm).  Rarely (if ever, at all)* have I seen someone say "I don't like FR - but I sure love Dragonlance!".


*And never in person.  In "real people land", I've only really run into people who "hate" any of the settings.  I, myself, never cared for FR (or any of the "generic fantasy" settings) - but that's about as far as my dislike goes.  I know other people who don't like Eberron, or don't like Dark Sun - but I don't actually know (and have not met) anyone who "hates" one of the D&D settings.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Ugh is 5th Edition really on the way? I just bought a bunch of this 4th Edition stuff.



'On the way' as in 'eventually'?  Yes.  Every game system puts out new editions periodically.
'On the way' as in 'in development, coming soon'? In my opinion No, that's just trolls stirring up trouble.



Fixed that for you!



All the "evidence" that 5E is coming "soon" is just as much speculation and opinion, most often put forth by people who have either never liked 4E or who hate the current state of 4E, and want to see it end sooner rather than later.

The problem is that if these rumors gain steam and become accepted as truth by the general public, it becomes self fulfilling. It is a simple fact that fewer people enter into an RPG at the end of its life cycle because they do not want to invest in a product that they may not be able to use in less than a year. Of course, if 4E sales tank hard enough, Hasbro may decide that producing 5E is not a good investment and they should shelve D&D until the market is ready for a new edition. All this baseless speculation is irresponsible and potentially harmful to the game.

The rumormongers are predicting an announcement at GenCon nect month. Let's hold off on the speculation until then, shall we? If they announce 5E in development, those folks can feel free to come on in and say, "Told ya so!" If they don't, then 5E won't be coming out in 2012, and probably not 2013. I'd say all bets are off regarding 2014, as it will be D&D's 40th birthday. Even if 4E is not ready to go gentle into that dark night by then, Hasbro may decide to publish a new edition to commemorate the event.


I remember a recent thread about DL or DL was talked about in it and a lot of people were saying how they wanted that setting to be "4efied". 



I can't imagine you actually read that thread.  I don't recall any noticable association there (or again, anywhere) between being an "FR hater" and a DL fan.  Again, it seemed that most people who brought both up at once either liked both, or disliked both.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
What I like most about the FR boxed set was the huge map. As the new FR has a map too, that is all I really need. I'll make up the rest as I go.

I thought the 100 year leap into the future was an excellent idea, but probably 250 years would have been better. As it would flush out more of those pesky high level NPCs and allow for population demographics to change more.

You may know ALL the rules, but I KNOW the Spirit of the Game.