Zedruu Donate ability questions

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In a multiplayer game, a Pyromancer's Swath is donated to another player with Zedruu, the Greathearted's second ability.  If the new controller of Pyromancer's Swath is eliminated from the game would Pyromancer's Swath be exlied from play or returned to the original owner?

Also, along the same lines, a Taniwha donated to another player (also with Zedruu) is phased out when that player is eliminated, would the Taniwha phase back in under it's owner's control at their next untap step?
The swath is returned to its owner.

800.4a. When a player leaves the game, all objects (see rule 109) owned by that player leave the game, all spells and abilities controlled by that player on the stack cease to exist, and any effects which give that player control of any objects or players end. Then, if there are any objects still controlled by that player, those objects are exiled. This is not a state-based action. It happens as soon as the player leaves the game. If the player who left the game had priority at the time he or she left, priority passes to the next player in turn order who’s still in the game.

I'm not sure about Taniwha. Things only phase in during your untap step if they phased out under your control. I'm thinking it will stay phased out forever.

702.24a Phasing is a static ability that modifies the rules of the untap step. During each player’s untap step, before the active player untaps his or her permanents, all phased-in permanents with phasing that player controls “phase out.” Simultaneously, all phased-out permanents that had phased out under that player’s control “phase in.”
 
All Generalizations are Bad
I'd say the control changing effect ends. The Taniwha is still phased out and will phase in when its new(old) controler begins his/her turn.

Phased in/out is a status like tapped/untapped, flipped/unflipped and face up/down. The permanent is still on the battlefield, it is just treated as though it wasn't.
RootBreaker has it right; Taniwha never phases in.

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What is the difference between Zedruu's "donate" effect that returns a donated permanent to it's owner after the controller loses the game (For example, Zedruu leaving play doesn't end it's effect and return a donated permanent) 

Would a a permanent "stolen" with Bribery or Acquire return to it's owner as well? 
Would a a permanent "stolen" with Bribery or Acquire return to it's owner as well? 

no, they were put on the field under the control of that player so there's no control effect on the objects, they would just be exiled.

Zedruu has a control changing effect that is in place on the affected object. Bribery and Acquire (and Beacon of Unrest or Teneb, the Harvester as well) don't have a control effect, they just put an object on the field under their controller's control.

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What is the difference between Zedruu's "donate" effect that returns a donated permanent to it's owner after the controller loses the game (For example, Zedruu leaving play doesn't end it's effect and return a donated permanent)

What's the difference between a duck? One of its legs are both the same.

You need to contrast Zedruu's ability with something for us to tell you the what the difference is between them.


Would a a permanent "stolen" with Bribery or Acquire return to it's owner as well? 

No. Those permanents were never controlled by anyone else. Without the control-changing effect created by putting them onto the battlefield, they wouldn't exist, so they're exiled.

All Generalizations are Bad
RootBreaker has it right; Taniwha never phases in.

Okay, there was a similar thread over on forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t..." title="forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t...">salvation about this.

Does it change controllers? If so, how? I don't see a rule that specifically mentions phasing that covers this, and it seems like 702.24b prevents the player-losing-the-game rules from covering it.

702.24b If a permanent phases out, its status changes to “phased out.” Except for rules and effects that specifically mention phased-out permanents, a phased-out permanent is treated as though it does not exist. It can’t affect or be affected by anything else in the game.


If it doesn't change controllers, it's controlled by someone not in the game, or controlled by "undefined." If that's the case, what happens if someone plays Time and Tide?
All Generalizations are Bad
If it doesn't change controllers, it's controlled by someone not in the game, or controlled by "undefined." If that's the case, what happens if someone plays Time and Tide?

We complain to Matt Tabak until he fixes it.

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Actually, on a second reading, this might be covered. 702.24b says that things treat it as though it doesn't exist, but in this case 800.4a isn't trying to affect Taniwha itself--it's simply ending the continuous effect that refers to Taniwha. It doesn't matter that the rule treats Taniwha as if it doesn't exist, because the effect exists no matter whether Taniwha does or not.

So Taniwha is phased out, the control-effect on it ends thanks to 800.4a, and then if someone casts Time and Tide after that it phases in under the control of whoever would otherwise control it. (Probably its owner.)


What isn't covered is Taniwha's owner leaving the game. 700.24b specifically stops 800.4a from causing it to leave the game, because 800.4a doesn't specifically mention phased-out objects.

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psst...
Zammm

there's a Rules T&T post that i started sitting in Rules Q&A
could you move it to its rightful home, please?

reference (community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...)

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psst...
Zammm

there's a Rules T&T post that i started sitting in Rules Q&A
could you move it to its rightful home, please?

Sure; though next time you could just ask in the stickied Requests thread in TCG Boards Business rather than try to catch me on some other thread. ;)

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Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Would a a permanent "stolen" with Bribery or Acquire return to it's owner as well? 

no, they were put on the field under the control of that player so there's no control effect on the objects, they would just be exiled.

Zedruu has a control changing effect that is in place on the affected object. Bribery and Acquire (and Beacon of Unrest or Teneb, the Harvester as well) don't have a control effect, they just put an object on the field under their controller's control.


So what about the real Donate? What happens with a card donated to someone?

 I play a Illusions of Grandeur deck with Donate. I have played it a few times with more than one opponent and have had the opponent who controlled it leave the game (not by the Illusion enchantment). Would I get it back in that case since it entered the battlefield under my control and and tranferred to someone else who then lost?
I'll just tack this on here, since it fits so well with the thread topic...

If I donate a Platinum Angel to my opponent using Zedruu the Greathearted...
......and we are the last two players in the game.....
....and he kills me.....
....while he is below 0 life....
....who wins?
So what about the real Donate? What happens with a card donated to someone?

the control effect ends and it returns to whoever would otherwise control it
I play a Illusions of Grandeur deck with Donate. I have played it a few times with more than one opponent and have had the opponent who controlled it leave the game (not by the Illusion enchantment). Would I get it back in that case since it entered the battlefield under my control and and tranferred to someone else who then lost?

yes (assuming you would otherwise control it)

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I'll just tack this on here, since it fits so well with the thread topic...

If I donate a Platinum Angel to my opponent using Zedruu the Greathearted...
......and we are the last two players in the game.....
....and he kills me.....
....while he is below 0 life....
....who wins?

he does because the game ends when you lose

DCI Certified Judge & Goth/Industrial/EBM/Indie/Alternative/80's-Wave DJ
DJ Vortex

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I'll just tack this on here, since it fits so well with the thread topic...

If I donate a Platinum Angel to my opponent using Zedruu the Greathearted...
......and we are the last two players in the game.....
....and he kills me.....
....while he is below 0 life....
....who wins?


He does. For the control effect to end and him to lose control of Platinum Angel you have to die. Since you're dead, he has won. That a nanosecond later the Angel would disappear and he would die doesn't matter.

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"That's what's so stupid about the whole magic thing, you know," Rincewind said. "You spend twenty years learning the spell that makes nude virgins appear in your bedroom, and then you're so poisoned by quicksilver fumes and half-blind from reading old grimoires that you can't remember what happens next."

- Terry Pratchett, The Colour Of Magic

So what about the real Donate? What happens with a card donated to someone?

the control effect ends and it returns to whoever would otherwise control it
I play a Illusions of Grandeur deck with Donate. I have played it a few times with more than one opponent and have had the opponent who controlled it leave the game (not by the Illusion enchantment). Would I get it back in that case since it entered the battlefield under my control and and tranferred to someone else who then lost?

yes (assuming you would otherwise control it)


Is it correct that if he died to the effect of the Illusions of Grandeur leaving the battlefield, then it would not return to my control?

Thanks for the answer. I think it has only come up once or twice that way, but none of us even thought about it. We just exiled it.
Is it correct that if he died to the effect of the Illusions of Grandeur leaving the battlefield, then it would not return to my control?


If it has left the battlefield, why would it return to the battlefield?

No, I am not a judge. That's why I like to quote sources such as the rules that trump judges.

Is it correct that if he died to the effect of the Illusions of Grandeur leaving the battlefield, then it would not return to my control?


If it has left the battlefield, why would it return to the battlefield?

Didn't think it would, was just making sure. Prior to seeing this post about a totally unrelated card, I had never thought about it before.
Yes, it could really suck if the player you passed Illusions to up and decided to concede as he'd likely take you out too because you'd get the Illusions back again.

Caveat Donor

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Yes, it could really suck if the player you passed Illusions to up and decided to concede as he'd likely take you out too because you'd get the Illusions back again.

Caveat Donor




Well, hopefully, you have not gone and lost the 20 life you gained from the initial entering of the Illusions. I still remember the first time I played her, and my opponent laughed and said I would regret gaining that 20 life. His reaction when I cast Donate on the next turn was just priceless.
Actually, on a second reading, this might be covered. 702.24b says that things treat it as though it doesn't exist, but in this case 800.4a isn't trying to affect Taniwha itself--it's simply ending the continuous effect that refers to Taniwha. It doesn't matter that the rule treats Taniwha as if it doesn't exist, because the effect exists no matter whether Taniwha does or not.

So Taniwha is phased out, the control-effect on it ends thanks to 800.4a, and then if someone casts Time and Tide after that it phases in under the control of whoever would otherwise control it. (Probably its owner.)


What isn't covered is Taniwha's owner leaving the game. 700.24b specifically stops 800.4a from causing it to leave the game, because 800.4a doesn't specifically mention phased-out objects.

That looks covered to me.

702.24j Phased-out permanents owned by a player who leaves the game also leave the game. This doesn’t trigger zone-change triggers. See rule 800.4.


All Generalizations are Bad
That looks covered to me.

702.24j Phased-out permanents owned by a player who leaves the game also leave the game. This doesn’t trigger zone-change triggers. See rule 800.4.

Ah, see, this is what I get for not bothering to look around the CR on my own. Thanks.

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