Tactical Warlord gimped for not wearing hide?

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Hi everyone. This is my first post. I just meet some new friends who got me hooked on D&D 4e, and its taking over my life! I have 2 character concepts planned. The first is a Dwarven, Brutal Scoundrel, and the other is a Female Dwarf, Tactical Warlord.

My first question (first of many I am sure) is about Tactical Warlords and armor. As far as I can tell, at higher levels, hide armor is far better then both chainmail and scale. This is really dissappointing to me, as my character concept is of a heavily armored (chain or scale / heavy shield) shield maiden weilding a warhammer. Look at my avatar and you will see what I am aiming for.

Anyhow, I really can't picture this character wearing hide armor, and I guess I am asking if I am overlooking any benifits or feats that could make me want to stick with the heavier armor?

I know I could take the hit to AC and wear what I want, but if possible I dont want to gimp myself.

Thank everyone, looking forward to meeting you all!

Kroann
Wear hide, refluff as scale.  Problem solved.
Wear hide, refluff as scale.  Problem solved.



To go off of this you could fluff it by using the hide of a creature that looks like metal scale.  For instance taking scales off of a metalic dragon could be hide armor and the scales would look metalic.  For the character in your avatar say you grabbed the dead scales from a gold dragon and had it turned into armor.  Since they are dead scales that fell off on their own they lack the awesomeness atributed to dragon armor but it is still as good as mundane hide with a cooler look.
Alot also has to do with your stat spread, and how active you plan to be in combat. Going dwarf gives you enough con to buy up to plate. Throw us some more tid bits about your plan going hide with 16 int is going to put you behind.
With a starting Int of 16, scale and hide are about breakeven (I think hide barely pulls ahead in Elite).  Your AC with scale and heavy shield should be plenty high and won't drain feats if you opt for the battlefront option.

In addition, with scale you have access to Tactician's Armor, which would be just the thing for a character who couldn't start with an 18 Int. As you're not a defender, boosting your Int modifier this way would be far more important than getting hit 5% less.
With a starting Int of 16, scale and hide are about breakeven (I think hide barely pulls ahead in Elite).  Your AC with scale and heavy shield should be plenty high and won't drain feats if you opt for the battlefront option.

In addition, with scale you have access to Tactician's Armor, which would be just the thing for a character who couldn't start with an 18 Int. As you're not a defender, boosting your Int modifier this way would be far more important than getting hit 5% less.



Thanks for the input so far guys. I am working on a build to show you guys now just to give you an idea of what I had in mind. I will post it in afew min.

Before that though, could you tell me what the "Battlefront option" is?

Edit: Ok I just looked up Battlefront leader. Am I still considered a Tactical Warlord if I take this? If so what do I give up?

With a starting Int of 16, scale and hide are about breakeven (I think hide barely pulls ahead in Elite).  Your AC with scale and heavy shield should be plenty high and won't drain feats if you opt for the battlefront option.

In addition, with scale you have access to Tactician's Armor, which would be just the thing for a character who couldn't start with an 18 Int. As you're not a defender, boosting your Int modifier this way would be far more important than getting hit 5% less.



Thanks for the input so far guys. I am working on a build to show you guys now just to give you an idea of what I had in mind. I will post it in afew min.

Before that though, could you tell me what the "Battlefront option" is?

Edit: Ok I just looked up Battlefront leader. Am I still considered a Tactical Warlord if I take this? If so what do I give up?


You're still considered a Tactical Warlord, you just trade in the bonus granted to the party's initiative for heavy shield proficiency and a no-action power that lets you or another party member move half their speed at initiative.  You also have access to the feat Armored Warlord that gives you scale proficiency without any other requirements.
the group-wide bonus to Initiative that Combat Leader provides.  going first is good. 

as they've said, you can reflavor anything.  just keep the mechanics sound.  our bard channels his power through a beer.  it's a wand.  but it's really a beer.

edit:  too slow.

Cry Havoc!  And let slip the hogs of war!

Ok, thanks again for the ideas guys, they are really helping me out.

Here is what I came up with so far. Keep in mind if I do decide to go with the Battlefront Leader, and Armored Warlord I will have 2 extra feats. So if anyone could advise me were those feats would be well spent, or for that matter any critique on my build at all, please chime in.

Astrid, level 11
Dwarf, Warlord, Battle Captain
Build: Tactical Warlord
Commanding Presence: Tactical Presence

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 19, Con 14, Dex 11, Int 19, Wis 11, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 13.


AC: 24 Fort: 20 Reflex: 21 Will: 18
HP: 86 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +14, Heal +10, Athletics +12, Diplomacy +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Arcana +9, Bluff +7, Dungeoneering +7, History +9, Insight +5, Intimidate +7, Nature +5, Perception +5, Religion +9, Stealth +3, Streetwise +7, Thievery +3

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Toughness
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Hammer)
Level 6: Tactical Assault
Level 8: Shield the Fallen
Level 10: Armor Proficiency (Scale)
Level 11: Shield Proficiency (Heavy)

POWERS
Warlord at-will 1: Commander's Strike
Warlord at-will 1: Brash Assault
Warlord encounter 1: Warlord's Favor
Warlord daily 1: Lead the Attack
Warlord utility 2: Motivated Recovery
Warlord encounter 3: Shielding Retaliation
Warlord daily 5: A Rock and a Hard Place
Warlord utility 6: Guide the Charge
Warlord encounter 7: Surprise Attack
Warlord daily 9: Knock Them Down
Warlord utility 10: Rallying Deflection

ITEMS
Craghammer, Adventurer's Kit, Handaxe, Dagger, Scale Armor, Heavy Shield
One observation: you should opt for Str/Con verses Con/Wis.  You need to connect with your powers to benefit the party and your wisdom score isn't benefiting anyone.
Of course, you could just solve your dilemma by making a wis-based insightful warlord. Or a bravura warlord. Both benefit from wearing heavy armour due to not pumping intelligence.

Going by your build, trade combat leader with battlefront leader (grants you heavy shield prof.), replace armour prof. scale with armored warlord. Now you have a free feat. A good one is "Fight On" that gives you another use of inspiring word.

Also, I'd don't think Knock them down is really worth it, maybe think about getting another level 5 daily? Stand the fallen is excellent, as is staggering spin.
One observation: you should opt for Str/Con verses Con/Wis.  You need to connect with your powers to benefit the party and your wisdom score isn't benefiting anyone.



I think the builder I am using is outdated and not allowing the option for Str/Con. I plan on becomming subbing to WotC for a up to date builder. How would my starting abilities look if I went that route? Would it allow me to get 18 str at 1st?

Of course, you could just solve your dilemma by making a wis-based insightful warlord. Or a bravura warlord. Both benefit from wearing heavy armour due to not pumping intelligence.

Going by your build, trade combat leader with battlefront leader (grants you heavy shield prof.), replace armour prof. scale with armored warlord. Now you have a free feat. A good one is "Fight On" that gives you another use of inspiring word.

Also, I'd don't think Knock them down is really worth it, maybe think about getting another level 5 daily? Stand the fallen is excellent, as is staggering spin.



Thanks for the advice, I will definatly check out your suggestions. Also I really need an updated builder. I am not seeing alot of options in my current one.

If your using the off-line builder then there might be one update your missing, but other then that support for the off-line builder has be stopped. I would vist this thread here and kind of just read over it a few times community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... LDB does a great job out lining the awsomeness that is the warlord, Also heres a snap shot of my warforged tac lord i played in a few one offs

Dante

Dante,
level 11
Warforged, Marshal, Battle Captain
Warlord Option: Combat Leader
Commanding Presence Option: Tactical Presence
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 21, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 19, WIS 9, CHA 14
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 11, DEX 10, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 13
 
AC: 27 Fort: 24 Ref: 23 Will: 21
HP: 83 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 20
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +14, Athletics +12, Diplomacy +12, Endurance +11, History +14
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Bluff +7, Dungeoneering +4, Heal +4, Insight +4, Intimidate +9, Nature +4, Perception +4, Religion +9, Stealth +2, Streetwise +7, Thievery +2
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Warforged Racial Power: Warforged Resolve
Warlord Feature: Inspiring Word
Artificer Feature: Healing Infusion: Resistive Formula
Artificer Feature: Healing Infusion: Curative Admixture
Warlord Attack 1: Intuitive Strike
Warlord Attack 1: Direct the Strike
Warlord Attack 1: Warlord's Favor
Warlord Attack 1: Lead the Attack
Artificer Attack 1: Punishing Eye
Warlord Utility 2: Shake It Off
Warlord Attack 3: Devastating Offensive
Warlord Attack 3: No Gambit Is Wasted
Warlord Attack 5: Stand the Fallen
Warlord Utility 6: Reorient the Axis
Warlord Utility 6: Rousing Words
Battle Captain Attack 11: Force Retreat
 
FEATS
Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 2: Shield Proficiency: Heavy
Level 4: Student of Artifice
Level 6: Warforged Tactics
Level 10: Adept Power
Level 11: Fight On
Level 11: Combat Commander
 
ITEMS
Heavy Shield x1
Withering Longsword +3 x1
Steadfast Amulet +2 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Feytouched Earthhide Armor +3 x1


Note I made a few choices here, I could have gone scale it would have nabbed me +2 AC -1 fort -1 speed(and -3 init but that can be made up with other iteams). I went hide since we have a beast of a defender(Shielding swordmage) so i felt pretty safe with just a heavy shield+hide, but i could see if i had to pull double duty as a defender/leader i might even go so far as to nerf my cha and buy up into plate by pargon. It has alot to do with what everyone else is playing since you can do so much with the warlord. Also i would never give up combat leader imo its the most unique aspect of the warlord.
I don't think Weapon Focus (Hammer) stacks with Dwarven Weapon Training, since they both give feat bonuses to damage.  Instead of Weapon Focus, you might consider Bludgeon Expertise.  This gives a +1/+2/+3 feat bonus to attack rolls with hammers and maces.  (The +2 comes in at level 11, so your attacks will be +2 better now!)
our bard channels his power through a beer.  it's a wand.  but it's really a beer.


This is pretty much awesome right here!

If your using the off-line builder then there might be one update your missing, but other then that support for the off-line builder has be stopped. I would vist this thread here and kind of just read over it a few times community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... LDB does a great job out lining the awsomeness that is the warlord, Also heres a snap shot of my warforged tac lord i played in a few one offs

Dante

Dante,
level 11
Warforged, Marshal, Battle Captain
Warlord Option: Combat Leader
Commanding Presence Option: Tactical Presence
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 21, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 19, WIS 9, CHA 14
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 11, DEX 10, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 13
 
AC: 27 Fort: 24 Ref: 23 Will: 21
HP: 83 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 20
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +14, Athletics +12, Diplomacy +12, Endurance +11, History +14
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Bluff +7, Dungeoneering +4, Heal +4, Insight +4, Intimidate +9, Nature +4, Perception +4, Religion +9, Stealth +2, Streetwise +7, Thievery +2
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Warforged Racial Power: Warforged Resolve
Warlord Feature: Inspiring Word
Artificer Feature: Healing Infusion: Resistive Formula
Artificer Feature: Healing Infusion: Curative Admixture
Warlord Attack 1: Intuitive Strike
Warlord Attack 1: Direct the Strike
Warlord Attack 1: Warlord's Favor
Warlord Attack 1: Lead the Attack
Artificer Attack 1: Punishing Eye
Warlord Utility 2: Shake It Off
Warlord Attack 3: Devastating Offensive
Warlord Attack 3: No Gambit Is Wasted
Warlord Attack 5: Stand the Fallen
Warlord Utility 6: Reorient the Axis
Warlord Utility 6: Rousing Words
Battle Captain Attack 11: Force Retreat
 
FEATS
Level 1: Heavy Blade Expertise
Level 2: Shield Proficiency: Heavy
Level 4: Student of Artifice
Level 6: Warforged Tactics
Level 10: Adept Power
Level 11: Fight On
Level 11: Combat Commander
 
ITEMS
Heavy Shield x1
Withering Longsword +3 x1
Steadfast Amulet +2 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Feytouched Earthhide Armor +3 x1


Note I made a few choices here, I could have gone scale it would have nabbed me +2 AC -1 fort -1 speed(and -3 init but that can be made up with other iteams). I went hide since we have a beast of a defender(Shielding swordmage) so i felt pretty safe with just a heavy shield+hide, but i could see if i had to pull double duty as a defender/leader i might even go so far as to nerf my cha and buy up into plate by pargon. It has alot to do with what everyone else is playing since you can do so much with the warlord. Also i would never give up combat leader imo its the most unique aspect of the warlord.



Any chance you could post a link to the offline builder? The only good builder I can find requires a subscription to D&D Insider. I am considering buying a sub but in the meantime I wouldnt mind checking out this offline builder.

Also my concept is that of a heavily armored defender / leader. Is giving up combat leader really not worth it for the armor and shield proficiency feats offered by battle captian?

I see you picked a Marshal build. I have never even see that before, lol. I really need some updated building tools.

I don't think Weapon Focus (Hammer) stacks with Dwarven Weapon Training, since they both give feat bonuses to damage.  Instead of Weapon Focus, you might consider Bludgeon Expertise.  This gives a +1/+2/+3 feat bonus to attack rolls with hammers and maces.  (The +2 comes in at level 11, so your attacks will be +2 better now!)



You are correct that weapon focus does not stack with DWT. I think what feat I was thinking of was weapon expertise hammers for the +1 to hit. It looks like this is the same as Bludgeon Expertise? In my builder I dont see an option for Bludgeon Expertise.

The offline builder is no longer available for download. Posting a link to it is against the ToS of these boards. There is a program called herolabs but you need a ddi subscription to get the current stuff.
One way you can justify the usage of heavy armor on a Tactical Warlord is by taking the Tactician's Armor enchantment - it boosts all your Intelligence-based secondary effects by 1, which is a big benefit, especially given that you're a Dwarf, so speed isn't an issue and you don't have top-of-the-line Int.
Until my LFR tactlord hit lvl 18, she wore Assassinbane hide armor. She is now wearing Tactician's Crysteel armor. She gives +8 to initiative now...

For a taclord I did scale armor prof right away and had a better AC than hide in heroic, used Tactician's Scale along with Battlestrider Greaves throughout paragon where the difference was a wash, retrained Scale Prof to Hide Armor Specialization in Epic where Int at 22 and the +4 AC from Darkhide made hide the better choice.

No you're not gimped by going Scale if you are following one of the different reasonings provide in this thread.