Good Sportsmanship?

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Hello everyone. My name's Garrett. I've played MTG since 4th Ed, but only recently have I become anything more than a casual player. I recently got a job a new gaming center in my town, and am in charge of our tabletop gaming section. We've hosted a few events, and things having been going pretty well, for a new store that's also new to the WPN.

This evening however, we had a few snags. So I'm looking for a little help, possibly some advice, etc. Up until tonight everyone who has come to play in our events has either been a player brand new to MTG, or older players who never got involved with DCI sanctioned events. And it's been great! The events have been fun, people have had a good time, especially the newer players who are still in the process of learning the game. Tonight however we had a couple "pros" show up, and they pretty much ruined the whole thing for everyone else (which was the consensus gathered from my co-workers).

This was partly my fault. As a player who hasn't always had the funds to keep up with the sets, and knowing that about half our player base had collections of older cards, I decided to have tonight's event be a Legacy format event. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Everyone would get to play decks/cards they were familiar with.

So, these two "pros" show up, with large box of cards. They go around scoping out the decks being played by the other folks in casual matches before the event started, then went to their box, and made some decks on the spot before the event started. I knew things were going to go downhill fast when one of them won a best of three round in less than 5 minutes, and the other in less than 10.

The comments from the other players tended to be that these two were acting like jerks in the matches, and on my way back from the bathroom I heard these two annouce, loudly, that "The only reason they were there was for the prize decks." When someone informed them that the prize was a couple of unopened boosters their response was a very disgusted-sounding "Oh."

One of our players almost broke down into tears after her match against one of them because he was playing so fast during his turns that she couldn't even clearly understand what it was he was doing, and it overwhelmed her. Another player commented that one of them acted like he was an idiot whenever he asked what a card he'd never seen before did.

In the fourth round of matches, both of them told me that they would take three draws and walked out for the remainder of the round. Then, when it came time for the play off match and it was (surprise surprise) just the two of them in the match, they told me to just drop one of them, and that they'd split the prize packs.

So, after this long winded semi-rant, here are my questions to the community: Is a lack of sportsmanship common amongst "pro" players? As the event organizer and judge for our store, do I have any recourse when things like this happen? What can I do to prevent things like this happening in the rare chance I decide to run another Legacy event? Am I allowed to instate a rule for my shop that says you must bring an already constructed deck to events? Or one that says that only the English version of cards are allowed in decks? Because frankly, I wanted to tell these two to never come back to our store. I want to have a place where everyone can come and have a good time, and have fun (it IS a game after all), and that's not possible with people behaving like these two at events.
I often build decks at events.  People shouldn't be playtesting before a tournament and if they are, they open themselves up to scouting.  Hopefully they learned.  Scouting pro-tip:  Test with a deck that you aren't running and blow people out when they mulligan aggressively to find hate.

All Magic cards of all languages are legal.  The person playing them has to know their exact wording though and if they don't, you could easily give them a warning.  Same with banter in game, though you need to inform the players that they must call a judge over.  I'd give them a verbal warning before an official warning.  Then drop them after three (but I'd check DCI floor rules).

The most effective solution to your problem, IMO, is to offer a bad prize.  Not worth my time->Not showing up.

People will take competetive games competetively.  

Most of these problems stem from the other players being unwilling to call a judge over.  If you play too fast, the other player can tell you to slow down and call a judge if you continue.  If they didn't ask me, I'd just carry on myself, especially if I was putting you on tilt.  

Most of these problems should work themselves out if you keep hosting events.  The only way to get better is to lose.   
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Most of these problems stem from the other players being unwilling to call a judge over.    



No, I think the problems stem from the fact that these two were acting like a-holes.  They might be solved by calling a judge.  

Personally, if I were those two "Pros" I'd see the fact that it was a more casual setting as a good opportunity to test out a really wacky, fun deck.  The value of possibly winning with a fun deck for me would be far higher than beating the snot out of a bunch of new players for whatever prize was being given.

It's like if I played basketball against a bunch of players who don't play much basketball.  I'm going to ease up a bit, I mean it's just a game.  What's the point of me winning if everybody else is having a **** time.  It isn't good for the game and if the game isn't thriving everyone loses.

In your defense though, and in their defense, it doesn't sound like the players did anything that was outside the rules.  They were fully within their rights to do what they did unless they were berating or mistreating anybody in ways that go against the rules.  

You can't always outlaw a-holes.  

I remember at a pre-release for Urza's Saga (sealed, I believe) this guy threw his card case (it was kind of like a padded fanny pack type of deal) on the table right in front of me before our first match.  He didn't throw it at me, but right in front of me in an attempt to intimidate me.  

I just smiled like I was holding back laughter.  I mean did some of these people not get enough hugs from their parents?  I can't imagine somebody having the most fun when they are beating up on others less skilled or experienced than them.  

 
It's like if I played basketball against a bunch of players who don't play much basketball.  I'm going to ease up a bit, I mean it's just a game.  What's the point of me winning if everybody else is having a **** time. 

Ummm... the ensuing 80's sports movie montage?

Competetive games are taken competetively - is great truth in that. Yes, dci talks about rules enforcement levels, and I guess there is some meat in that when comming to safekeeping the novices experience with the game - nevertheless my opinion is that alot of the jerkmanship/rules-lawyering cant be approached well (enough) because, you know, "go" means "go" and target "this" means "this", and not target "that" - once one give excuses for such one pretty much has to give excues for the whole use of spoken language - which would be absurd.

What Id do if those idiots are so idiot as you depict: (and btw: we are here for the prizes - lol no, they are there for the ego-trip you can be sure of). You dont have to be so "reasonable" with them. Be UNreasonable with them, rule like you want to, be cynical/short-sentenced when dealing with them. If they argue back you can be sure they are just inches away from starting to use bad language against you as a judge - which is a situation you can use further for handing them warnings and DQs which "isnt what you necessarily want to avoid" =).

In MtG the head-judge is the ultimate appeal, and the HJ is you, no matter how little knowledge of the game you have.

Ive been a football ref for many years. In football all match-report cards have a check-box for when one team would want to "notify governing body about pending match-appeal". MtG doesnt have this, HJ is truly HJ.

As long as you feel youre intentions are right then go ahead and screw them id say.
It's like if I played basketball against a bunch of players who don't play much basketball.  I'm going to ease up a bit, I mean it's just a game.  What's the point of me winning if everybody else is having a **** time. 

Ummm... the ensuing 80's sports movie montage?




Only if I get to add the music track from the 90's Chicago Bulls team introductions timed with me throwing elbows at my little cousin.  
Any game with an entry fee and a prize should be played with all you have. This includes mindgames, scouting, and the best deck you can muster. The two guys may have ruined the fun, but it does not sould like they are "jerks" or whatever.

I'd give it a few more tries- as your locals harden up, they might start having fun going all out for the prizes.
It's like if I played basketball against a bunch of players who don't play much basketball.  I'm going to ease up a bit, I mean it's just a game.  What's the point of me winning if everybody else is having a **** time. 

Ummm... the ensuing 80's sports movie montage?




Only if I get to add the music track from the 90's Chicago Bulls team introductions timed with me throwing elbows at my little cousin.  

What?  Using 90's music in an 80's montage?
That will just implode the universe!

Any game with an entry fee and a prize should be played with all you have. This includes mindgames, scouting, and the best deck you can muster. The two guys may have ruined the fun, but it does not sould like they are "jerks" or whatever.

I'd give it a few more tries- as your locals harden up, they might start having fun going all out for the prizes.



Really?  It sounds to me like they were class-A jerks.  Now the question of whether they were in their rights to be jerks is a different story.  

Just like on the bus I am within my rights not to let an old lady or a pregnant lady have my seat.  However, I'd always let an old lady have my seat though, but nobody is going to arrest me or give me a ticket for it unless it's specifically against a rule or law.  

My point at the end of the day, though, was that the competition was so casual that they really didn't need to be jerks in order to win.  

Even from a business point of view I think they were stupid.  They should have just won with grace and humbleness, made friends, and spent a day there trading or starting up some limited play.  A lot of younger players are just dying to trade away all their standard tournament staples for big creatures, dragons, etc.  I don't believe there is any excuse for for coming to a place and disrespecting it by saying stuff like, "I'm only here for the prizes."  

the competition was so casual

Those are mutually exclusive terms.

the competition was so casual

Those are mutually exclusive terms.




By competition I meant the "people" not the event.  I meant the people seemed like they were casual magic players, thus they didn't even need all of these mind games, etc, to win.  They were just a-holes, plain and simple. 

But even then, any magic game is a competition, and some competitions are casual.   
@ OP: I think the problems started when you either (a) made the event a tournament (rather than a casual play session just for fun) or (b) made it Legacy (which to me screams ultra-competitive).

Considering you set the tone, I cannot find much wrong with what they did.

One of our players almost broke down into tears after her match against one of them because he was playing so fast during his turns that she couldn't even clearly understand what it was he was doing, and it overwhelmed her.


Maybe they assumed that since this was a Legacy tournament (not Standard, which is aimed at starting players) their opponents would be equally experienced.

Did the player say "Slow down, I cant understand you"? Did a Judge step in? Playing quickly and efficiently, using abbreviations, slang or shortcuts to speed things up isnt in itself a problem - its only a problem when someone is confused by it (so it is up to someone to object).

Another player commented that one of them acted like he was an idiot whenever he asked what a card he'd never seen before did.


Again, they could have been expecting more serious or experienced players (afterall, it was Legacy). Was the player in question actually asked to adjust his attitude?

In the fourth round of matches, both of them told me that they would take three draws and walked out for the remainder of the round. 


Im not sure what you mean by this. Unless they were playing eachother, how did they know they could ID that round? You cannot just choose to draw, unless your opponent agrees.

Is a lack of sportsmanship common amongst "pro" players?


Different people define sportsmanship in different ways. Were they trying to legally trick their opponents, or put them off? Were they cheating? Or were they just playing Magic better than everyone else?

As the event organizer and judge for our store, do I have any recourse when things like this happen?


What happened? If someone is playing too fast for their opponent to keep up, ask them to slow down. If they are displaying an attitude that is causing offence, ask them to stop. 

If you dont want them to be good at the game... well there isnt much you can do about that.

What can I do to prevent things like this happening in the rare chance I decide to run another Legacy event?


Dont tell people it is on? ;)

More seriously, why not try to prepare your players, and bring them up to the same standard as these "pros"? Better decks, more knowledge, more practice, being more savvy, and having more skill will go a long way towards improving the event. At the very least teach them to call for a Judge when they need one.

Or just dont run tournaments/Legacy. Run a casual league. Or play Limited (that evens the playing field a lot). Or play Standard (smaller card pool and the best 2 cards just got banned). Maybe have tournaments with no prizes on the line - they are less likely to attract competitive players.

If your group really didnt like playing against these two, I dont get why their opponents didnt just drop each round and play friendlies against eachother while they waited for everyone else. Its not like they were forced to sit there and get stomped by them. And who knows, maybe the "pros" would have gotten bored and gone home.

Am I allowed to instate a rule for my shop that says you must bring an already constructed deck to events?


 Unless they were still building after the event started, then that is what they did do.

You could get people to register their decks like an hour before you start, but I dont see much point in that. Just tell your players not to let people see their decks until the tournament has started.

Or one that says that only the English version of cards are allowed in decks?


You could, but it wouldnt be DCI sanctioned or supported by Wizards.

Just be on hand to provide the Oracle wording of the cards when their opponents request it (and make sure they know they are entitled to ask).

Because frankly, I wanted to tell these two to never come back to our store. I want to have a place where everyone can come and have a good time, and have fun (it IS a game after all), and that's not possible with people behaving like these two at events.


You invited them to a Legacy Tournament. Not a casual league. Not a Pre-release. Not even an FNM. LEGACY. TOURNAMENT.

Its understandable that you feel bad because you messed up, but dont take it out on these players.

Legacy doesnt mean "old cards" it means "the best cards ever". Tournament doesnt mean "friendly get together" it means "competition". Your heart was in the right place, but you were more than a little naive (you should probably done a bit of research as to what sort of decks are used in Legacy Tournaments, and how they are played).

So, moving forward:
- No more Legacy Tournaments until the players are ready
- consider casual leagues rather than tournaments
- consider Limited rather than Constructed (sells more product too)
- consider Standard/FNM (or maybe Pauper)
- try to help your players improve so they are more prepared when someone with more experience shows up.

My FLGS runs lots of different events to tailor to the different kinds of players. We have:

- free Pauper tournaments
- a free casual Hobby League
- weekly FNM (Standard)
- Pre-releases and Launch Parties
- monthly Drafts (current block)
- monthly Standard tournaments/Game Day
- Extended tournaments
- special events (like the Commander Launch)

So whatever your budget, skill level or experience, there is something for you to join in with.

Maybe this will give you food for thought.

Hope that helps,

~ Tim

EDIT:
What Id do if those idiots are so idiot as you depict: (and btw: we are here for the prizes - lol no, they are there for the ego-trip you can be sure of). You dont have to be so "reasonable" with them. Be UNreasonable with them, rule like you want to, be cynical/short-sentenced when dealing with them. If they argue back you can be sure they are just inches away from starting to use bad language against you as a judge - which is a situation you can use further for handing them warnings and DQs which "isnt what you necessarily want to avoid" =).

In MtG the head-judge is the ultimate appeal, and the HJ is you, no matter how little knowledge of the game you have.

Ive been a football ref for many years. In football all match-report cards have a check-box for when one team would want to "notify governing body about pending match-appeal". MtG doesnt have this, HJ is truly HJ.

As long as you feel youre intentions are right then go ahead and screw them id say.


I would be very careful here. If you abuse your position of authority, they will complain to Wizards/DCI. And if your store loses the ability to host official events (or even supply Wizards product), I wouldnt be surprised if you lost your job. You might be Head Judge, but Wizards is still in charge.


I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
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56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
LMTRK: Great advice, all around.  Hope it's helpful to the OP.
Slave of Tibalt. Currently trading for foils of my bro. PM me. Tarmogoyf on Twitter. Follow me. Team GFG Guns, Fame, Glory Those that require a sig for the ego simply haven't had enough kind words thrown his or her way. Currently looking for prerelease Plains! People who have mailed me rares:
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Malpheas: THANK YOU FOR THE FOIL TIBALT, YOU BEAUTIFUL GUY, YOU! Suudsu2200: Armageddon! Sèance, Dominating Licid, Words of War, Gaea's Anthem, Momentous Fall, Nyxathid PM me to make it happen. Your username will end up here, as the cards you sent me. I reserve the right to order your usernames by the cards I liked the best. Oh, and if you send me some Islands in the package, I'll sign them and mail them back.
About the fast play, were they still announcing phases and waiting for responses on the stack?

As long as they were doing that, I can't see anything wrong with it, if you know your deck and aren't too worried about what the opponent is doing (which would have been helped by the (perfecly ok) scoping out of decks during the casuals), playing fast can be a pretty natural thing to do.

The IDing a round thing sounds a bit fishy, did their opponent's agree to ID or did you just get it confused with conceding a round? Doesn't seem like it should be possible to ID without consent from both partys.

Also were they actualy being jerks outside of games (eg.rudeness insulting behaviour) or are you just getting playing to win in a tournament situation confused with jerkyness?

Beating down a player in 5 minutes doesn't make you a jerk, it simply makes you the winner of that match, in fact it's more of a jerk move to go easy on someone and drag the game out when you can beat him/her down quickly.

Although, as long as the above things were all ok ones they were doing nothing wrong, chances are you won't see them again anyway, it must be pretty dissapointing the pay to travel to an enter a tournament only to find theres no real competition and the prizes aren't that good (at least apparently compared to whatever they were used to).

lensig.gif
@ OP: I think the problems started when you either (a) made the event a tournament (rather than a casual play session just for fun) or (b) made it Legacy (which to me screams ultra-competitive).


Why on Earth does Legacy scream ultra-competitive? That makes zero sense to me; I always build my casual decks to be Legacy-legal and even if other people don't there's a good chance they will be anyway. On the other hand, if someone's been playing for any amount of time, their fun decks are highly unlikely to be Standard-legal unless they for some reason choose to build them that way.
blah blah metal lyrics

Legacy doesnt mean "old cards" it means "the best cards ever". Tournament doesnt mean "friendly get together" it means "competition".



I guess I should have worded my original post better. Last night was our FNM, and it was Legacy format. None of the materials I have received or read has told me that you cannot hold Legacy FNM events.

Also, and I hate to disagree, but the official tournament rules say that,
"Legacy decks may consist of cards from all Magic card sets, any edition of the core set, and all special sets, supplements, and promotional printings released by Wizards of the Coast.
Cards from expansions and special sets (like From the Vault, Magic: The Gathering - Commander, etc) are legal in the Legacy format on the date of release of the expansion or special set.
All promotional cards are legal in the Legacy format on the date of the release of the promotional card."

Perhaps it's just me, but I do not take that to mean "the best cards ever." I take that to mean that I could play my soldier deck that was drawn from a couple different blocks against someone else's Lorwyn elf deck, and another player's Jund deck from the Alara block.


In regards to the fast play question the answer is no. He wasn't announcing phases, nor was he allowing time for responses to the stack.

But on the whole I've taken a lot from everyone's responses. Thank you all.

I think LMTRK means that, if you can play cards from all sets, that it will be the best cards (ever) that show up in the best decks.

Also, you hosted a tournament. The point of a tournament is to see who is best at winning. Best to hold casual gaming nights for rofling times :] 
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Wel when you have a metagame made up of what sounds like 12-20 casual players and then two pro sharks jump in that's what happens. They stomp all over everyone and walk away with the prizes. The only way to stop them is make it not worth their time to show up. Otherwise they will clean up every chance they get for the prizes. I mean you could ban them but there's no point because someone else will show up and do the same thing.

We never really had this problem at my store because we have mostly pros and semi-pro players. Occasionaly a group of casual guys will show up and sometimes the better players will play quirky or fun decks, but still use their good cards. It makes the tournament more enjoyable and the casual players don't mind losing to something interesting. I guess that's another suggestion. Tell those guys they are too strong for your store and ask them to play more fun decks rather than compeititve because the rest of the customers are complaining. You should cater to the majority of your customers rather than 2 pros upsetting the balance.
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One thing you are always free to do is to restructure the prizes.  Thus, if these guys show up again, decide how many total boosters you were going to give away and then give one to each of the top players.  Thus, if you were going to give away six boosters, then the prize structure is one booster for each of the top six.  Then let it be known that if someone doesn't like playing against a particular player, that someone can just concede on the spot in order to avoid having to deal with that kind of person.

The players who are paired against these guys could agree to just concede to both of these two guys and then play casually against one another during the alloted time for the round.  Yes, the jerks take first and second.  They're going to anyway so there's no reason to have a bad time dealing with them.  Just let them win without playing, give them lousy prizes, and enjoy the rest of the evening.

If there's a confrontation, anyone who likes can easily explain the following to them: "MTG is a social game, and since both of you lack the proper social skills to make the game the enjoyable competition that it is and was meant to be, we concede to you.  You get first and second, and here are your prizes.  Now please stop bothering us since the rest of us have a mutually enriching social event in which to participate."
"I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Planeswalkers on fire off the Seachrome Coast of Mirrodin. All these spells will be cast like rice at a wedding. Time to duel."
I guess I should have worded my original post better. Last night was our FNM, and it was Legacy format. None of the materials I have received or read has told me that you cannot hold Legacy FNM events.


I am sure you will find that if FNM is Constructed, it must be Standard. You might want to check that before you run another event.

Of course, if it isnt really "FNM" and its just a Magic tournament that happens to be held on a Friday evening, then it can be whatever format you want. You wont get FNM promos for it of course.


Also, and I hate to disagree, but the official tournament rules say that,
"Legacy decks may consist of cards from all Magic card sets, any edition of the core set, and all special sets, supplements, and promotional printings released by Wizards of the Coast.
Cards from expansions and special sets (like From the Vault, Magic: The Gathering - Commander, etc) are legal in the Legacy format on the date of release of the expansion or special set.
All promotional cards are legal in the Legacy format on the date of the release of the promotional card."

Perhaps it's just me, but I do not take that to mean "the best cards ever."


Just because a deck is legal in Legacy, that doesnt make it "a Legacy (calibre) deck".

When you can choose from any cards in the history of Magic, and your goal is to win (since it is a tournament), you can use the best cards ever in your deck. Thats what you invited everyone to do. The fact that only 2 players did that, wasnt their fault.
 
In regards to the fast play question the answer is no. He wasn't announcing phases, nor was he allowing time for responses to the stack.


Then ask him to. Problem solved.
(it probably comes under something like "failure to communicate the gamestate" or something - you would have to check)

Anyway, as long as you learn from your mistakes, you should be fine. Try to encourage your players to raise their game and build decks for tournaments, rather than trying to tailor the tournaments to allow them to carry on using the decks they already play.

EDIT:
Tell those guys they are too strong for your store and ask them to play more fun decks rather than compeititve because the rest of the customers are complaining. You should cater to the majority of your customers rather than 2 pros upsetting the balance.


You cant do that at a sanctioned event! Ratings are on the line, and everyone is invited, so everyone has to follow the same rules. If the rest of the group can use whatever decks they like, then so can these 2 "pros" - you cannot handicap them just because the rest of the room isnt up to scratch.

~ Tim
I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)

I guess I should have worded my original post better. Last night was our FNM, and it was Legacy format. None of the materials I have received or read has told me that you cannot hold Legacy FNM events.


This page says that FNM must be Standard constructed, sealed deck, or booster draft.
www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Events.aspx?x=...
 
I think you need to get your newer players together, and have a little workshop on their rights as players in a sanctioned match.  Make it public, fun, informative, and open it to everyone.  Give them some rules to back up the frustration they are feeling, so that they feel empowered to call a judge, ask a player to slow down and be clear, and obtain oracle text so that they understand how the cards interact.  It sounds cheesy, but have them practice on eathother, and give them a chance to ask you questions and voice their frustrations.  Once they realize that they are supported by more people at the event they will feel much more confident to exert their rights.

Also, next time these jerks are at an event, I would hover around their matches.

I once had to give legal deposition in a a law suit, and it was handled much the same way.  I was called in to the defense (the side I was called to give testimony for) law office before hand and told my rights in the deposition and how it would go.  When the day of the deposition came I was supported by the lawyer that prepared me, and while he could not tell me what to say, he could step in when the opposing counsel asked a question or acted in a way that was not appropriate.

In a MTG match, the role of the head judge is surprisingly similar.  You cannot tell a player how to play smarter (ie what to say), but you can prepare them ahead of time on play strategies, in a public group setting that everyone is invited to.  You can also give them the knowledge to know when the rules are being bent or broken, and confidence to ask for clarification or call for a judge.  You must remain independent, but at the same time you are free to intervene when you see rules being broken.
It is entirely possible to beat an opponent on turn 5 and not be a jerk about it.  I'm not sure based on the OP's writeup if this was the case.  And I think letting the players know they can ask the judge at any time would help them get the pacing down.

Being competitive doesn't mean the person has to be condescending or a jerk.   I played at prerelease last night and aside from one hiccup where a player kept missing his land and rage tore up(yes ripped them in two) his opponents land, it was a very light and fun mood.  You had guys winning games in the first 5 turns all night.  But I guess when people understand it's not all about themselves, most are able to act in an appropriate manner.
Well said I played this fellow once ok more the once and he just kicked my butt i said thanks good game your a great player and i learn a lot all he said it was easy to beat you sucked well after the second tiime i just stopped playing with him and that brought about his few friend to drop me from their group and i liked playing with them and that kinda suck there are not a whole lot of card player here.
I have an idea..partially what was given here already-

Talk to your casual players, let them know how official matches go, their rights, etc.

Have a casual league, with prizes from entry- with no points on the line and 'crappy' prizes the serious players will shy away. Use these to help players see their weakpoints, discuss after the tournement with them- encourage group participation.

These casual league matches can lead up into preparation for official matches, which can be run along side on different nights, as well as when the casual players fele up to snuff to join.

Even serious players might join in on the casual league with less spikish attitude if they see the fun others are having..if they don't- no loss.
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Where's the fun in that?

EDIT:
Tell those guys they are too strong for your store and ask them to play more fun decks rather than compeititve because the rest of the customers are complaining. You should cater to the majority of your customers rather than 2 pros upsetting the balance.


You cant do that at a sanctioned event! Ratings are on the line, and everyone is invited, so everyone has to follow the same rules. If the rest of the group can use whatever decks they like, then so can these 2 "pros" - you cannot handicap them just because the rest of the room isnt up to scratch.

~ Tim


If the players are disruptive to your main customer base they have the right to refuse to let them play. It is their business they need to run it for the majority of their customers not two guys. It's not worth it for them to lose fifteen or so customers to gain two. I mean they should try to reason with them first, not just say next time they walk in "hi your banned!" There's a tacful way to handle the situation and it starts with talking to them about the problem.
True post count: 9,900 Thanks Wotc for not counting archived posts. If I post without capital letters than means I'm posting from my phone. For some reason it hates typing capital letters. Go_Texans on MTGO. Texans 12-4 Wildcard: W Texans 19 Bengals 13 Divisional: L Texans 28 Patriots 41 Another awesome season!
If the players are disruptive to your main customer base they have the right to refuse to let them play. It is their business they need to run it for the majority of their customers not two guys. It's not worth it for them to lose fifteen or so customers to gain two. I mean they should try to reason with them first, not just say next time they walk in "hi your banned!" There's a tacful way to handle the situation and it starts with talking to them about the problem.



And the store is the customer of WotC, which can also stop allowing the store to purchase their product for distribution.  The two people banned from the tournaments could appeal to Wizards, which could be bad.  It would be different if they were banned from the store for vandalism or whatever, then the store could legitimately defend itself.  It's not right to answer corruption (I consider this kind of behavior corrupt; YMMV, and you can disagree with me all you want) with corruption.

A number of options were presented here:
1. Run FNM as Standard, Sealed, and/or Draft (which may actually be part of the rules as referenced above).

2. Run casual preparation nights with no points on the line for your main customer base; focus on them getting better prepared for tourneys, rather than just goofing around.  Then run tournaments on other days.

3. Restructure prizes and socially ostracize them until they're willing to not be jerks about being good (note: I'm not saying these guys shouldn't be good, just not be jerks).  This seems a bit like paying off the mafia though if they do keep coming to the store to get points/prizes, and just not care about social relations.

4. Foul them for not announcing enough about the gamestate or failing to allow responses.  This could backfire though if they start calling out the rest of your players.  Judgments need to be distributed fairly, and this could do more harm than good.

Somnia, the Evanescent Plane -- A 3-set Block
Set 1 — Somnia
Set 2 — TBD
Set 3 — TBD
Planeswalker's Guide to Somnia

Build Around This
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Build Around This #1 - Sage's Starfish Wish
BAT #1 was built using the Legacy format with Spiny Starfish, Sage's Knowledge, and Make a Wish. Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire with Fishy Starfishies. Runner-Up: JBTM
I think I said that banning them wasn't the answer. Even so they would have a fun time trying to break through the red tape at wotc for them to do something to the store.
True post count: 9,900 Thanks Wotc for not counting archived posts. If I post without capital letters than means I'm posting from my phone. For some reason it hates typing capital letters. Go_Texans on MTGO. Texans 12-4 Wildcard: W Texans 19 Bengals 13 Divisional: L Texans 28 Patriots 41 Another awesome season!
I think I said that banning them wasn't the answer. Even so they would have a fun time trying to break through the red tape at wotc for them to do something to the store.


Sadly, little people, such as the villains in this story, rarely have any thing else better to do than obsess about minutia.  Hell, these guy were petty enough to intentionally make a room full of people feel victomized in order to get a few silly packs.  These people are bullies, and control freaks whom probably have little else in their lives because personalities like this bleed in to every corner of their life eventually.  You can't just be a jerk when playing magic, without becoming a jerk at all times eventually.

I hate to sound like your dad, but perhaps sitting down with one or the other (not both at the same time) and talking about this in a diplomatic way, so as not to make them feel defensive.  Get a little insight in to why they do what they do, and appeal to them in a way that they understand.  Don't get me wrong, I am a fairly big guy who has allowed himself to be driven to violence a few times when I felt wronged, but that rarely does anything but make you feel better in the short term and cause you long-term grief.  Getting to the bottom of their actions may not  be realistic, but it would improve things in the long run...

...unless they have an antisocial personality disorder*.  Then you just need a restraining order.;)


*"...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."- DSM VI
Maybe the guys don't even know what they did was wrong. Maybe they just came prepared for a competitive Legacy tournament, won easily and left the place happy because they managed to get an easy win and think that their decks are well tuned for the meta. Maybe you are thinking that they are bad people, and maybe they are, but there's also the possibility that they just didn't really understand what was going on and left happy because they performed well in a tournament.

This is a possiblility because you did call the whole thing a "tournament" and made the format Legacy. I'm not saying that there's no chance they are jerks, sure, there's always this possibility, but I'm just trying to show you that the other way around can also be possible.

So before you do anything, just wait and see if they come back. If they do, explain the situation to them and see their reaction. If you explain politely that the group is extremely casual and many people felt really bad they day the whole thing happened, if these two guys are reasonable, they'll feel bad and fix the misunderstanding. If they aren't, then you can start thinking about different methods.

All I'm saying is, give the guys a chance before considering them stupid and prepotent jerks. Since it seems you don't really know them, that doesn't sound unreasonable.
OMG click HERE! OMG! How to autocard and use decklist format
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For autocarding, write [c][/c] with the name of the card inside it. [c]Island[/c] = Island For linking a card to Gatherer without writting the name of said card for readers, use the autocard brackets together with and equal sign and right the name of the real card. Then put the message you want inside the tags, like you would do with autocarding. Like this: [c=Curse of the Cabal]Captain Never-resolves[/c] = Captain Never-resolves For using the decklist format, follow this: [deck] 4* Terramorphic Expanse 4* Evolving Wilds ... [/deck] It equals:
Real signature, Sblocked for space:
57817638 wrote:
I like storm crow because I really like crows in real life, as an animal, and the card isn't terribly stupid, but packs a good deal of nostalgia and also a chunck of the game's history. So it's perhaps one of the cards I have most affection to, but not because "lol storm crow is bad hurr hurr durr".
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Quotes
56747598 wrote:
57295478 wrote:
Although I do assume you deliberately refer to them (DCI) as The Grand Imperial Convocation of Evil just for the purposes of making them sound like an ancient and terrible conspiracy.
Now, now. 1994 doesn't quite qualify as "ancient".
56734518 wrote:
Oh, it's a brilliant plan. You see, Bolas was travelling through shadowmoor, causing trouble, when he saw a Wickerbough Elder with its stylin' dead scarecrow hat. Now, Bolas being Bolas took the awesome hat and he put it on his head, but even with all his titanic powers of magic he couldn't make it fit. He grabbed some more scarecrows, but then a little kithkin girl asked if he was trying to build a toupee. "BY ALL THE POWERS IN THE MULTIVERSE!" he roared, "I WILL HAVE A HAT WORTHY OF MY GLORY." and so he went through his Dark Lore of Doom (tm) looking for something he could make into a hat that would look as stylish on him as a scarecrow does on a treefolk. He thought about the Phyrexians, but they were covered in goopy oil that would make his nonexistant hair greasy. He Tried out angels for a while but they didn't sit quite right. Then, he looked under "e" (because in the Elder Draconic alphabet, "e" for Eldrazi is right next to "h" for Hat) in his Dark Lore of Doom and saw depictions of the Eldrazi, and all their forms. "THIS SHALL BE MY HAT!" he declared, poking a picture of Emrakul, "AND WITH IT I WILL USHER IN A NEW AGE OF DARKNESS -- ER, I MEAN A NEW AGE OF FASHION!" And so Nicol Bolas masterminded the release of the Eldrazi.
57864098 wrote:
Rhox War Monk just flips pancakes, and if games have told us anything, it's that food = life.
56747598 wrote:
76973988 wrote:
This thread has gotten creepy. XP
Really? Really? The last couple days have been roughly every perverse fetish imaginable, but it only got "creepy" when speculation on Mother of Runes's mob affiliation came up?
76672808 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
57531048 wrote:
Nice mana base. Not really.
Yeah, really. If my deck was going to cost $1000+, I'd at least make it good.
99812049 wrote:
I like to think up what I consider clever names for my decks, only later to be laughed at by my wife. It kills me a little on the inside, but thats what marriage is about.
56816728 wrote:
56854588 wrote:
Of course, the best use [of tolaria west] is transmuting for the real Tolaria. ;)
Absolutely. I used to loose to my buddy's Banding deck for ages, it was then that I found out about Tolaria, and I was finally able win my first game.
70246459 wrote:
WOAH wait wait wait
56957928 wrote:
You know, being shallow and jusdgmental aside, "I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
"I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates
56957928 wrote:
OH MY GOD
109874309 wrote:
The only way I'd cast this card is into a bonfire.
82032421 wrote:
The short answer is that there's no rule barring annoying people from posting, but there a rule barring us from harassing them about it.
56747598 wrote:
Browbeat is a card that is an appropriate deck choice when there's no better idea available. "No better idea available" was pretty much the running theme of Odyssey era.
56874518 wrote:
Or perhaps it was a more straightforward comment indicating a wish for you to be bitten (Perhaps repeatedly) by a small yet highly venomous arachnid.
70246459 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
You're an idiot, and I'm in no mood for silliness.
57817638 wrote:
57145078 wrote:
You just... Vektor it.
That's the answer to everything.
70246459 wrote:
58347268 wrote:
I think the problem is that you don't exist.
This would sound great out of context!
56965458 wrote:
Modern is like playing a new tournament every time : you build a deck, you win with it, don't bother keeping it. Just build another, its key pieces will get banned.
57864098 wrote:
57309598 wrote:
I specifically remember posting a thread when I was just a witty bitty noob.
You make it sound like that's still not the case.
58325628 wrote:
Rap is what happens when the c from crap is taken away.
Doug Beyer:
But sometimes it's also challenging. Because sometimes OH MY GOD, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING?
141434757 wrote:
Flashforward five thousand years (Click for atmosphere) :
57927608 wrote:
to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum, Vektor finds a way.
58347268 wrote:
when in rome **** AND PILLAGE
143229641 wrote:
I always find it helpful when im angry to dress up in an owl costume and rub pennies all over my body in front of a full body mirror next to the window.
Dymecoar:
Playing Magic without Blue is like sleeping without any sheets or blankets. You can do it...but why?
Omega137:
Me: "I love the moment when a control deck stabilizes. It feels so... right." Omega137: "I like the life drop part until you get there, it's the MtG variant of bungee jumping"
Zigeif777:
Just do it like Yu-Gi-Oh or monkeys: throw all the crap you got at them and hope it works or else the by-standers (or opponents) just get dirty and pissed.
57471038 wrote:
58258708 wrote:
It's true that Alpha and Beta didn't contain any cards like Tarmogoyf, Darksteel Colossus, or Platinum Angel. It just contained weak, insignificant cards like Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, and Time Walk.
Normally it's difficult to pick up on your jokes/sarcasm. But this one's pretty much out there. Good progress. You have moved up to Humanoid. You'll be Human in no time.
91893448 wrote:
94618431 wrote:
I didn't know Samurai were known to be able to cut down whole armies...
They can when they're using lightsabers!
57129358 wrote:
97980259 wrote:
My wife brought home a baby black squirrel they found on a horse track and cared for it for a few days. We named it Grixis, but it died.
Unearth it!
70246459 wrote:
[/spoiler] And I'm on Magic Arcana. How about you? Oh, by the way, I'm also on From the Lab now. Twice, actually. And now with my own submited decklist!
Maybe the guys don't even know what they did was wrong. Maybe they just came prepared for a competitive Legacy tournament, won easily and left the place happy because they managed to get an easy win and think that their decks are well tuned for the meta. Maybe you are thinking that they are bad people, and maybe they are, but there's also the possibility that they just didn't really understand what was going on and left happy because they performed well in a tournament.

This is a possiblility because you did call the whole thing a "tournament" and made the format Legacy. I'm not saying that there's no chance they are jerks, sure, there's always this possibility, but I'm just trying to show you that the other way around can also be possible.



This is exactly what I was thinking.  If you advertise a legacy tournament, don't be suprised when people show up expecting to play a Legacy Tournament.
 
Maybe the guys don't even know what they did was wrong. Maybe they just came prepared for a competitive Legacy tournament, won easily and left the place happy because they managed to get an easy win and think that their decks are well tuned for the meta.


Only if they have no ability to read social cues.
Maybe the guys don't even know what they did was wrong. Maybe they just came prepared for a competitive Legacy tournament, won easily and left the place happy because they managed to get an easy win and think that their decks are well tuned for the meta.


Only if they have no ability to read social cues.

They are Magic players.

Jokes aside, some people really don't pay attention to this kind of thing. Some people are used to more aggressivity than others. Some people just don't care. I'm not saying this situation is one of the cases or the other, I'm just saying it's necessary to consider all the angles before taking any definitive action.
OMG click HERE! OMG! How to autocard and use decklist format
--->
For autocarding, write [c][/c] with the name of the card inside it. [c]Island[/c] = Island For linking a card to Gatherer without writting the name of said card for readers, use the autocard brackets together with and equal sign and right the name of the real card. Then put the message you want inside the tags, like you would do with autocarding. Like this: [c=Curse of the Cabal]Captain Never-resolves[/c] = Captain Never-resolves For using the decklist format, follow this: [deck] 4* Terramorphic Expanse 4* Evolving Wilds ... [/deck] It equals:
Real signature, Sblocked for space:
57817638 wrote:
I like storm crow because I really like crows in real life, as an animal, and the card isn't terribly stupid, but packs a good deal of nostalgia and also a chunck of the game's history. So it's perhaps one of the cards I have most affection to, but not because "lol storm crow is bad hurr hurr durr".
Listen to my SoundCloud while you read my signature. The Island, Come And See, The Landlord's Daughter, You'll Not Feel The Drowning - The Decemberists by vimschy IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/rkvR.gif)IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/L3es.gif) IMAGE(http://dragcave.net/image/m71H.gif)
Quotes
56747598 wrote:
57295478 wrote:
Although I do assume you deliberately refer to them (DCI) as The Grand Imperial Convocation of Evil just for the purposes of making them sound like an ancient and terrible conspiracy.
Now, now. 1994 doesn't quite qualify as "ancient".
56734518 wrote:
Oh, it's a brilliant plan. You see, Bolas was travelling through shadowmoor, causing trouble, when he saw a Wickerbough Elder with its stylin' dead scarecrow hat. Now, Bolas being Bolas took the awesome hat and he put it on his head, but even with all his titanic powers of magic he couldn't make it fit. He grabbed some more scarecrows, but then a little kithkin girl asked if he was trying to build a toupee. "BY ALL THE POWERS IN THE MULTIVERSE!" he roared, "I WILL HAVE A HAT WORTHY OF MY GLORY." and so he went through his Dark Lore of Doom (tm) looking for something he could make into a hat that would look as stylish on him as a scarecrow does on a treefolk. He thought about the Phyrexians, but they were covered in goopy oil that would make his nonexistant hair greasy. He Tried out angels for a while but they didn't sit quite right. Then, he looked under "e" (because in the Elder Draconic alphabet, "e" for Eldrazi is right next to "h" for Hat) in his Dark Lore of Doom and saw depictions of the Eldrazi, and all their forms. "THIS SHALL BE MY HAT!" he declared, poking a picture of Emrakul, "AND WITH IT I WILL USHER IN A NEW AGE OF DARKNESS -- ER, I MEAN A NEW AGE OF FASHION!" And so Nicol Bolas masterminded the release of the Eldrazi.
57864098 wrote:
Rhox War Monk just flips pancakes, and if games have told us anything, it's that food = life.
56747598 wrote:
76973988 wrote:
This thread has gotten creepy. XP
Really? Really? The last couple days have been roughly every perverse fetish imaginable, but it only got "creepy" when speculation on Mother of Runes's mob affiliation came up?
76672808 wrote:
57864098 wrote:
57531048 wrote:
Nice mana base. Not really.
Yeah, really. If my deck was going to cost $1000+, I'd at least make it good.
99812049 wrote:
I like to think up what I consider clever names for my decks, only later to be laughed at by my wife. It kills me a little on the inside, but thats what marriage is about.
56816728 wrote:
56854588 wrote:
Of course, the best use [of tolaria west] is transmuting for the real Tolaria. ;)
Absolutely. I used to loose to my buddy's Banding deck for ages, it was then that I found out about Tolaria, and I was finally able win my first game.
70246459 wrote:
WOAH wait wait wait
56957928 wrote:
You know, being shallow and jusdgmental aside, "I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
"I later found out that Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people"
56957928 wrote:
Jon infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates
56957928 wrote:
OH MY GOD
109874309 wrote:
The only way I'd cast this card is into a bonfire.
82032421 wrote:
The short answer is that there's no rule barring annoying people from posting, but there a rule barring us from harassing them about it.
56747598 wrote:
Browbeat is a card that is an appropriate deck choice when there's no better idea available. "No better idea available" was pretty much the running theme of Odyssey era.
56874518 wrote:
Or perhaps it was a more straightforward comment indicating a wish for you to be bitten (Perhaps repeatedly) by a small yet highly venomous arachnid.
70246459 wrote:
58280208 wrote:
You're an idiot, and I'm in no mood for silliness.
57817638 wrote:
57145078 wrote:
You just... Vektor it.
That's the answer to everything.
70246459 wrote:
58347268 wrote:
I think the problem is that you don't exist.
This would sound great out of context!
56965458 wrote:
Modern is like playing a new tournament every time : you build a deck, you win with it, don't bother keeping it. Just build another, its key pieces will get banned.
57864098 wrote:
57309598 wrote:
I specifically remember posting a thread when I was just a witty bitty noob.
You make it sound like that's still not the case.
58325628 wrote:
Rap is what happens when the c from crap is taken away.
Doug Beyer:
But sometimes it's also challenging. Because sometimes OH MY GOD, WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING?
141434757 wrote:
Flashforward five thousand years (Click for atmosphere) :
57927608 wrote:
to paraphrase Jeff Goldblum, Vektor finds a way.
58347268 wrote:
when in rome **** AND PILLAGE
143229641 wrote:
I always find it helpful when im angry to dress up in an owl costume and rub pennies all over my body in front of a full body mirror next to the window.
Dymecoar:
Playing Magic without Blue is like sleeping without any sheets or blankets. You can do it...but why?
Omega137:
Me: "I love the moment when a control deck stabilizes. It feels so... right." Omega137: "I like the life drop part until you get there, it's the MtG variant of bungee jumping"
Zigeif777:
Just do it like Yu-Gi-Oh or monkeys: throw all the crap you got at them and hope it works or else the by-standers (or opponents) just get dirty and pissed.
57471038 wrote:
58258708 wrote:
It's true that Alpha and Beta didn't contain any cards like Tarmogoyf, Darksteel Colossus, or Platinum Angel. It just contained weak, insignificant cards like Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, and Time Walk.
Normally it's difficult to pick up on your jokes/sarcasm. But this one's pretty much out there. Good progress. You have moved up to Humanoid. You'll be Human in no time.
91893448 wrote:
94618431 wrote:
I didn't know Samurai were known to be able to cut down whole armies...
They can when they're using lightsabers!
57129358 wrote:
97980259 wrote:
My wife brought home a baby black squirrel they found on a horse track and cared for it for a few days. We named it Grixis, but it died.
Unearth it!
70246459 wrote:
[/spoiler] And I'm on Magic Arcana. How about you? Oh, by the way, I'm also on From the Lab now. Twice, actually. And now with my own submited decklist!
I honestly cannot understand this thread.

If you enter a race, you are expected to run it as well as you are able. It would be poor sportsmanship to run it just fast enough to win by a few inches.

Why are we acting like Magic is different?
I honestly cannot understand this thread.

If you enter a race, you are expected to run it as well as you are able. It would be poor sportsmanship to run it just fast enough to win by a few inches.

Why are we acting like Magic is different?


I don't disagree with folks saying that the shop owner was naive about all this.

It would be naive to advertise an open invitation for a track meet intended for Junior High School age competitors.  It would be poor sportsmanship for Usain Bolt to scout out the track meet, realize the competition was a bunch of Junior High Schoolers, run them all into the ground while making rude comments, sneer at the prize, then take it anyways.

Admittedly, I'm assuming that these two were cognizent enough to recognize the negative social environment and smart enough to realize they were much of the cause for it.  Vektor's post is correct that that's just an assumption (but the most probable situation).


I'm not involved in the DCI tournament scene, and never have been, so I don't know if MtG has "weights" so that people can compete just against others in the same weight class -- but this is the exact reason that other types of sports and competitions *do* have professional competition classes.  It's a similar concept, but not directly analogous to the Tournament Formats...however, a Format is not a measurement of capability or skill, simply a measurement of card ownership.  A "class" would be something more oriented around the competitors proven capabilities, like the difference between Junior Varsity and Varsity.  Can you even run a "Casual (Class) Legacy (Format)" tournament?  I'm not sure, and I don't even know if it would be welcomed by the larger community in the DCI scene.

I'm not posing the above as a suggestion, because I'm not even sure if doing so would be logistically feasible.  But, them's the breaks.

Somnia, the Evanescent Plane -- A 3-set Block
Set 1 — Somnia
Set 2 — TBD
Set 3 — TBD
Planeswalker's Guide to Somnia

Build Around This
A weekly MTG Cards and Combos forum game.
Build Around This #1 - Sage's Starfish Wish
BAT #1 was built using the Legacy format with Spiny Starfish, Sage's Knowledge, and Make a Wish. Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire with Fishy Starfishies. Runner-Up: JBTM
I honestly cannot understand this thread.

If you enter a race, you are expected to run it as well as you are able. It would be poor sportsmanship to run it just fast enough to win by a few inches.

Why are we acting like Magic is different?


If they had arrived, dominated, and been friendly and helped other players grow in the game, this thread never would have been started.  The fact that they dominated, and were (by all reports) unfriendly and used intimidation to rush through games is the thing that was unsporting.  This intimidation may have forced more play errors, and cemented their jerk status.  They may have showed up not knowing the level of the meta-game, but to then treat the rest of the players as garbage who did not even deserve to seated on the other side of the table from them was complete disrespect.

It would be like showing up at the race, sizing up the rest of the runners, and despite the fact that you could run circles around them you play the intimidating mind games that you use to get an edge in a more even field.  If you are running on a more level field I can see why you might try and psyche out the other runners to get an edge that might rain you that tenth of a second that will mean the win.  If you show up and it is a field full of out of shape amateurs just out for a bit of cardio there is no need for that same edge for you to win. 

Those mind games are either a choice or a complete absence of social graces and respect for your opponent.  If it is a choice- a tool you use to get an edge over an opponent, then it is something you can turn off at will when it is not needed.  It was clearly not needed in this case, so it was very much "win more" that resulted in the rest of the players feeling bad about the entire night.  There is absolutely NO reason for choosing to disrespectful.  It does not win you more games (especially in this case), so their is no up-side.

Play to win, if that is what you want to do- that is the core goal of a competition.  If the match-up is close, then gaining any legal edge you can is smart tactics.  When your playing to win unnecessarily* causes your opponent stress and grief, then you are being a jerk.



*meaning it does not actually make the difference in you winning or loosing in lopsided matchup.
I honestly cannot understand this thread.

If you enter a race, you are expected to run it as well as you are able. It would be poor sportsmanship to run it just fast enough to win by a few inches.

Why are we acting like Magic is different?


If they had arrived, dominated, and been friendly and helped other players grow in the game, this thread never would have been started. 



This is my sentiment, exactly.  I don't understand people going "the event host was naive and it's his fault because he said LEGACY!".  Since when did playing legacy make it ok to be a jerk?  I've played in many a highly competitive legacy event.  With players much better than me, and with players whom I beat easily.  It either such case, I generally still had fun and think my opponents did too. 

It's not that they shouldn't have been expected to "win the race" as easily as they did.  But you also don't have to insult all the other runners as you lap them on the track.  Magic is a social game, and if we want to continue to grow it, there is a social responsibility of the people who play it to make it a good experience for others.  Or they won't have anyone else to play!

I'd say much of the advice given by Islands and LMTRK is definitely valid.  Get your players to feel more confident in their rules knowledge and rights as a player in a tournament and when a judge is needed to be called.  Help them start to raise their level of gameplay and deckbuilding, if that's something they're interested in, for 'competitive tournaments' and in particular 'eternal formats'.

But also keep in mind that these two players are generally the exception, and not the rule, when it comes to legacy or any other tournament Magic.  Don't let a few bad eggs ruin your fun, and when they do show up from time to time, just be prepared knowing how to best mitigate the effects they can have on your local group as fairly as you can within the rules provided by WotC/DCI.
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I honestly cannot understand this thread.

If you enter a race, you are expected to run it as well as you are able. It would be poor sportsmanship to run it just fast enough to win by a few inches.

Why are we acting like Magic is different?



If the 1st and 2nd place runners are running backwards right in front of you sneering ( and outrunning you at the same time ) do you think there's a problem then?


There is one thing you have to remember when playing any Magic sanctioned event, whether it be FNM, GPT, PTQs, or whatever, it's just Magic. A card game based off fantasy creatures and spells. I used to play poker fairly often. If I had a regular game every week and a few "pros" showed up and acted real cocky while playing, they'd wind up getting thier a55es kicked. I guess I carry that mentality when it comes to Magic. Although I would'nt say just assualt a player that makes you mad or laughs at you, but at the same time you can still stand up for yourself. Here are a few things to do.

-Call a judge
-Drop from the match
-Call the opponent that is giving you or your playgroup a hard time an a-hole or some other harsher name. I'm sure that the "pros' would wind up not coming back to a place where the players were a-holes back to them.

I have had a friend of mine call out a player that was acting this way, in front of a judge, at a local game-day event. He stood up from the match and stated loudly " I don't play Magic with people who make the game less fun to play." He also dropped from the match immediately after saying that.

The guy got the point that regulars at this shop don't play super competative, and just enjoy playing the game. The guy also appologized for acting like an a-hole and turned it down for the rest of the event.

It might just take a few players to stand up to these so called pros to let them know they walked into thier local store, thier turf. But one thing that's true is you only get better at magic by playing people that are better than you.
My local store has a strict behaviour code when you're there for any reason. If you're an a-hole, even after a few warnings, you're kicked out for the night and possibly longer. It's integral to your job that you keep the customers happy above all else. An unhappy customer is a customer that you won't see twice. I doubt WotC would pull all their products from your store because a couple of guys were being detrimental to the livelihood of it. That's bad business for everyone.


The problem with the two legacy vets that showed up is that they believed they were so far beyond the players there that they didn't really feel the need to respect them like they would each other. It isn't because they were better skilled or had better cards, it's because they let those two things skew their perspective of every other player there. It's not unreasonable to be better than another player. It's unreasonable when you do your best to make sure they know it.


Talk with whoever owns your store, make sure a strict code of conduct is made and enforced.
Glad to see some people with sense.  For a while it looked like everybody was going to defend those two disrespectful jerks.  

 
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