God what I would give for a REAL Dungeons & Dragons Sand Box MMO.

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Will we see this in our lifetime?
What's 'Dungeons and Dragons'?
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

What's 'Dungeons and Dragons'?



I think it's some Satanic game that Wizards made based off of Magic: the Gathering.

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Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

Will we see this in our lifetime?



After the Singularity, maybe. But it's still on my to-do list, so don't give up hope. 
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
I think it's some Satanic game that Wizards made based off of Magic: the Gathering.



That makes sense.  Does it give you powers?  If it does, I'm so in.  Soul schmole.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

I think it's some Satanic game that Wizards made based off of Magic: the Gathering.



That makes sense.  Does it give you powers?  If it does, I'm so in.  Soul schmole.



It does. Unfortunately, the Dark Dungeons primer pamphlet all but comes out and says that the only power it gives you is the ability to sucker people into getting you more gaming supplies. But apparently the game has a lot of female players, so it might be a good way to meet chicks.

Scope my YouTube channel!

Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.



Celebrate our differences.

It does. Unfortunately, the Dark Dungeons primer pamphlet all but comes out and says that the only power it gives you is the ability to sucker people into getting you more gaming supplies. But apparently the game has a lot of female players, so it might be a good way to meet chicks.



Hmm.  Extra supplies are always good.  And so are chicks.  Yeah, I'm down.  Sign me up to this Dragon Dungeon cult, please.  Hmm.  That sounds sorta S&M.  Do ya get to do S&M stuff with the chicks?  If so, I've got some ideas for them gaming supplies they'll be bringin' me ...
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Yeah, but then the chicks grow up into mother hens and then they're only good for breakfest or dinner or, if you're lucky, both. 
Resident Over-Educated Ivory-Tower Elitist [You don't have the Need-to-Know for that, citizen]
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Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

What's 'Dungeons and Dragons'?

And here I thought it was "Dungeons: The Dragoning"
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As to the OP... never gonna happen. WotC made another crap deal with Atari and they are just sitting on the IP or passing it off to companies that are nigh on worthless... I see a lawsuit in the works...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I don't think the thing preventing a real sandbox MMO is someone holding the IP. I think it's more about it being impossible at this point in time due to technical constraints.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
To be fair Atari is a terrible publisher, and cryptic is an even worse development firm. (the pair working on neverwinter so yeah it's gonna suck. Sorry Guys.)

I think a sandbox mmo is possible, and I suspect that's what Blizzards big mmo project is. You don't have to look far to see Wow's days are now numbered. GW2, KOTOR both are taking mmos in new and very fresh directions, and Blizzard isn't one to rest on their laurells.
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To be fair Atari is a terrible publisher, and cryptic is an even worse development firm. (the pair working on neverwinter so yeah it's gonna suck. Sorry Guys.)

I think a sandbox mmo is possible, and I suspect that's what Blizzards big mmo project is. You don't have to look far to see Wow's days are now numbered. GW2, KOTOR both are taking mmos in new and very fresh directions, and Blizzard isn't one to rest on their laurells.



Yeah, I designed (on paper) an MMO that would be completely open. The players would decide the rules for their guilds and the game would enforce them. Anyone could kill anyone, but you as a player could put a bounty on someones head and the game would track it and you could team up for super bounties that would really suck. It had kingdoms and ruling classes and how you went about that... it was a cool idea,  but alas the world is not ready for something so ahead of its time...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Ahead of its time?  Ultima Online offered sandbox play starting I don't even know how many years ago.  Only thing is it wasn't structured at all.  No plot behind the scenes (er, most of the time).  But you could literally do anything you wanted to inside the game and world mechanics.  Like, literally sit in your house and do nothing but talk to a neighbor.  Or maybe make some shirts.  Or you could go kill stuff.  Or other people.  Whatever.  That's why to a lot of us that played it, everything else is a real let down with the scrpited quest BS and nothing to do but kill crap stuff.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]



Yeah, I designed (on paper) an MMO that would be completely open. The players would decide the rules for their guilds and the game would enforce them. Anyone could kill anyone, but you as a player could put a bounty on someones head and the game would track it and you could team up for super bounties that would really suck. It had kingdoms and ruling classes and how you went about that... it was a cool idea,  but alas the world is not ready for something so ahead of its time...



Can't you do that in Eve Online? O_o

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I'm pretty sure Lokiare just described Second World. If you want open-ended-can-do-anything, that's where you go.

The thing is that "open ended and you can do anything" makes for a really bad game. Most people pretty much need a set of goals to strive for in a game or they get bored and leave. The trick with open ended systems is to somehow guide people into setting their own short and long term goals (which are obtainable and possible within the game world) without them realising that you're guiding them.

If you can do that, you're golden Smile 
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
UO did a decent job of that.  Skill system, crafting system, housing system, new housing system that allowed you to custom build your own (within limits), the occasional quest set up for rare items, guilds, order vs chaos, etc.  Really quite a good game.  I'm bummed the free one I played on died.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

Two words: Asheron's Call
Boraxe wrote: "Knowledge of the rules and creativity are great attributes for a DM, but knowing when to cut loose and when to hold back, when to follow the rules and when to discard them, in order to enhance the enjoyment of the game is the most important DM skill of all." Keeper of the Sacred Kitty Bowl of the House of Trolls. Resident Kitteh-napper.
UO did a decent job of that.  Skill system, crafting system, housing system, new housing system that allowed you to custom build your own (within limits), the occasional quest set up for rare items, guilds, order vs chaos, etc.  Really quite a good game.  I'm bummed the free one I played on died.



So... You have a job and pay money to play an MMO so that you can get a job inside the MMO?

Yeah, that's whyI didn't get far into FF XI. I wasn't about to work a full-time job just so I could pay money to be a character in a fantasy universe with a full-time job.

Scope my YouTube channel!

Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

So... You have a job and pay money to play an MMO so that you can get a job inside the MMO?

Yeah, that's whyI didn't get far into FF XI. I wasn't about to work a full-time job just so I could pay money to be a character in a fantasy universe with a full-time job.



You didn't have to craft, man.  It could be all about slayin' dragons or PvP or literally doing nothing but RPing.  Whatever ya wanted to do.  Sure most people worked skills and tried to make gold (craftin' or killin') but you didn't have to.  Like, not at all.  I had several characters that weren't 'done'.  Skills nowhere near maxed and they were not PvP or PvM beyond newb level capable.  All I did with 'em was dick around and BS with people.  I also had a couple characters that I worked hard at finishing.  Got them maxed in all skills, pimped their gear through adventuring (either finding or buying), built multiple houses, etc.  But I didn't have to do any of it.  And I never once in all the years I played GM'd a craft skill.  Never.  My pals had crafters with multiple GM craft skills and I had none.  Ya just did what was fun for ya - no matter what that was including nothing at all.  Good stuff.

And 'begging' was a skill, too.  One you could actually work if ya wanted to.  Heh.    The stuff I mentioned was just the way the game was set up to give ya goals if goals ya was after.  Not everyone was.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

To be fair Atari is a terrible publisher, and cryptic is an even worse development firm. (the pair working on neverwinter so yeah it's gonna suck. Sorry Guys.)

I think a sandbox mmo is possible, and I suspect that's what Blizzards big mmo project is. You don't have to look far to see Wow's days are now numbered. GW2, KOTOR both are taking mmos in new and very fresh directions, and Blizzard isn't one to rest on their laurells.



i love KOTOR
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I have tried some MMO games and champions online is the funniest for me. Cryptic still can do a good D&D game.

 I tried D&D online, only I played a dungeon, and I din´t like it.  

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Yeah, but then the chicks grow up into mother hens and then they're only good for breakfest or dinner or, if you're lucky, both. 


As long as it comes with samiches I'm down with it.

Warning: This turns into a bit of a long winded rant or something. read at your own risk.

As for sandbox games..... they get boring quick. As for MMOs. Interacting with too many people, especially with reduced rules/restrictions, is just a pain and not worth it. Mixing boorishness with Dbags isn't appealing.

If you want to play D&D with a sandbox then you and your friends download minecraft. The DM can start a server for your group. Get a couple of mod packs. You can now make your own open ended world with people you enjoy being around that wont grief people and other Dbag stuff that is rampant in MMOs.

My biggest experience with an MMO was a very time consuming game (seemed like a full time job ) and about half of the players seemed like their were mid twenties or younger and in school. The other half were unemployed adults. Very few people seemed to have jobs and the ones that did almost always dropped the game before endgame came about. Not sure what I'm getting at here but I guess my observation is that the game took so much time that only the unemployed had enough time for it.

If WotC does try some big online game kind of thing I'd be more up for them trying some kind of RTS which would play something like the "Age of.." games or like "Starcraft 2" or whatnot.

To my D&D has the feel of either a small adventuring group or controlling a mass army/kingdom. Just think about it. We're often just a small band of adventurers, but often we're stopping the plans of some evil. Plans that if they got to fruition then mass armies will be tossed about. i.e. first premade adventure for 4e. If the gate to the shadowfell got opened by Loreal* then it would spell doom for the whole region for death waits on the other side of the portal.

To me D&D doesn't seem like a first person game. Now some of you guys might point out how in a sandbox MMO you can join guilds and make friends and blah blah blah. I understand but really I don't see the appeal to that. I've tried a few and thought they were the worst games ever. Not sure what the appeal is. Either you have no freedom and the game restriction isn't fun or you have a lot of freedom and you get killed by other players nonstop and other BS. And I really hate games that force you to work with other players. If a game is going to force me to play 1 character then I'd like to play 1 character all the way through and not have to interact with a single person. At the point you have to interact with another person a game usually turns to total crud. Every single time!

Oh yeah. What D&D is and junk. either a small group or big army. small group type thing could work in an mmo kind of thing but that could be taken care of with something like minecraft and some creative thought and free time. The other thing is that WotC could make their own game that could maybe be similar. have premade servers/stories that a group of friends could join to play through together and whatnot.

As for the army junk I say it would work well as an RTS. And really the other stuff works well here in a way as well. See our D&D characters in many campaigns are really nothing but pawns of those pulling the strings. We might not be a part of some main army (although sometimes we are) but we are used for strategic strikes against our foes. So the idea of an adventuring party dealing big blows can be kept with an RTS. Especially since sometimes there are things called TPKs. ;)

But now that I think about it the idea sounds a bit like warcraft. but that is segregated by race. WotC could maybe separate it by magic type. Maybe by race on top of that. But magic type might be the big thing me thinks. necro raising dead. enchanters controlling enemy foes. summoner/conjurer calling creatures to the field during a battle. evoker making a fight a true hell. abjurer tossing up defenses galore. diviner having immaculate map vision and detection. stuff like that. It could be an entertaining kind of game to play. much better than 99% of sandbox MMOs.

____________________
*It's been about a year since I've looked at that campaign or talked about it so I might be off with the name.


Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence A Monster Appears I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?

So... You have a job and pay money to play an MMO so that you can get a job inside the MMO?

Yeah, that's whyI didn't get far into FF XI. I wasn't about to work a full-time job just so I could pay money to be a character in a fantasy universe with a full-time job.



You didn't have to craft, man.  It could be all about slayin' dragons or PvP or literally doing nothing but RPing.  Whatever ya wanted to do.  Sure most people worked skills and tried to make gold (craftin' or killin') but you didn't have to.  Like, not at all.  I had several characters that weren't 'done'.  Skills nowhere near maxed and they were not PvP or PvM beyond newb level capable.  All I did with 'em was dick around and BS with people.  I also had a couple characters that I worked hard at finishing.  Got them maxed in all skills, pimped their gear through adventuring (either finding or buying), built multiple houses, etc.  But I didn't have to do any of it.  And I never once in all the years I played GM'd a craft skill.  Never.  My pals had crafters with multiple GM craft skills and I had none.  Ya just did what was fun for ya - no matter what that was including nothing at all.  Good stuff.

And 'begging' was a skill, too.  One you could actually work if ya wanted to.  Heh.    The stuff I mentioned was just the way the game was set up to give ya goals if goals ya was after.  Not everyone was.



In FFXI I played til I hit level 70 Red Mage. At the low levels you could do that, but everything is capped by level so you do actually have to level up. If you wanted any of the decent items in the game you really had to do the quest circuit and/or farm items for money and craft. Of course you could do the RMT and buy a lot of stuff, but there were some essential items that you couldn't buy. Really I quit the game because it became a grind and I could pass the level 70 cap limit quest which requires you to beat a level 70 character of the same class with extra powers. I maxed everything out got potions and drops and the best items for the fight and did it like 30 times and failed. After that I was like whatever... and just logged off...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
In FFXI I played til I hit level 70 Red Mage. At the low levels you could do that, but everything is capped by level so you do actually have to level up. If you wanted any of the decent items in the game you really had to do the quest circuit and/or farm items for money and craft. Of course you could do the RMT and buy a lot of stuff, but there were some essential items that you couldn't buy. Really I quit the game because it became a grind and I could pass the level 70 cap limit quest which requires you to beat a level 70 character of the same class with extra powers. I maxed everything out got potions and drops and the best items for the fight and did it like 30 times and failed. After that I was like whatever... and just logged off...



There are no levels in UO.  Level based MMOs are fail because they make you grind.  In UO, you could literally play the game and do nothing but talk to people or wander around aimlessly.  It was all about what fulfilled you.  There were no quests to go on (most of the time) or anything like that.  So if all ya wanted to do was talk and RP, you could.  I did it often enough (grinding drives me insane). 
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

In FFXI I played til I hit level 70 Red Mage. At the low levels you could do that, but everything is capped by level so you do actually have to level up. If you wanted any of the decent items in the game you really had to do the quest circuit and/or farm items for money and craft. Of course you could do the RMT and buy a lot of stuff, but there were some essential items that you couldn't buy. Really I quit the game because it became a grind and I could pass the level 70 cap limit quest which requires you to beat a level 70 character of the same class with extra powers. I maxed everything out got potions and drops and the best items for the fight and did it like 30 times and failed. After that I was like whatever... and just logged off...



There are no levels in UO.  Level based MMOs are fail because they make you grind.  In UO, you could literally play the game and do nothing but talk to people or wander around aimlessly.  It was all about what fulfilled you.  There were no quests to go on (most of the time) or anything like that.  So if all ya wanted to do was talk and RP, you could.  I did it often enough (grinding drives me insane). 



Is it still up? I might have to try it sometime...

Yeah, grinding is not very fun unless you have a good conversation going on with other players at the same time...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Is it still up? I might have to try it sometime...

Yeah, grinding is not very fun unless you have a good conversation going on with other players at the same time...



I think it is.  I have no idea for sure, though.  The thing is it's an old game with old graphics so a lot of people just don't get into it.  And if it's still up through Origins you'd have to pay to play.  I'd say search for free shards (which are legal) and try there but the community base is smaller and the shards are typically modified in ways that can ... suck.  Currently a friend of mine is playing on one that's quite different from the traditional version but seems to be ok.  I'll have to ask him for its name when I see him again.  The shard I played on died some time ago.  It was run on donated server space that was taken when the small company that owned it got bought out.  Tragic.  We had a tight community.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.

Section Six Soldier

Front Door of the House of Trolls

[b]If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.[/b]

In FFXI I played til I hit level 70 Red Mage. At the low levels you could do that, but everything is capped by level so you do actually have to level up. If you wanted any of the decent items in the game you really had to do the quest circuit and/or farm items for money and craft. Of course you could do the RMT and buy a lot of stuff, but there were some essential items that you couldn't buy. Really I quit the game because it became a grind and I could pass the level 70 cap limit quest which requires you to beat a level 70 character of the same class with extra powers. I maxed everything out got potions and drops and the best items for the fight and did it like 30 times and failed. After that I was like whatever... and just logged off...



There are no levels in UO.  Level based MMOs are fail because they make you grind.


Hell yeah they do. After like level 5 or so (which you could probably obtain during your first playing session of the game for just a couple of hours) you have to spend ungodly amounts of time to get that next level or item.

UO sounds kind of interesting. Also your talk of just sitting around and doing nothing in the game remnds me of a anime series about online gaming called .Hack. One of the characters in one of the .Hack series did nothing but sit around and talk.

Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence A Monster Appears I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?

In FFXI I played til I hit level 70 Red Mage. At the low levels you could do that, but everything is capped by level so you do actually have to level up. If you wanted any of the decent items in the game you really had to do the quest circuit and/or farm items for money and craft. Of course you could do the RMT and buy a lot of stuff, but there were some essential items that you couldn't buy. Really I quit the game because it became a grind and I could pass the level 70 cap limit quest which requires you to beat a level 70 character of the same class with extra powers. I maxed everything out got potions and drops and the best items for the fight and did it like 30 times and failed. After that I was like whatever... and just logged off...



There are no levels in UO.  Level based MMOs are fail because they make you grind.


Hell yeah they do. After like level 5 or so (which you could probably obtain during your first playing session of the game for just a couple of hours) you have to spend ungodly amounts of time to get that next level or item.

UO sounds kind of interesting. Also your talk of just sitting around and doing nothing in the game remnds me of a anime series about online gaming called .Hack. One of the characters in one of the .Hack series did nothing but sit around and talk.



I played the first of the .Hack games... it simulated a crappy MMO, just offline and without the people and it sucked...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
In FFXI I played til I hit level 70 Red Mage. At the low levels you could do that, but everything is capped by level so you do actually have to level up. If you wanted any of the decent items in the game you really had to do the quest circuit and/or farm items for money and craft. Of course you could do the RMT and buy a lot of stuff, but there were some essential items that you couldn't buy. Really I quit the game because it became a grind and I could pass the level 70 cap limit quest which requires you to beat a level 70 character of the same class with extra powers. I maxed everything out got potions and drops and the best items for the fight and did it like 30 times and failed. After that I was like whatever... and just logged off...



There are no levels in UO.  Level based MMOs are fail because they make you grind.


Hell yeah they do. After like level 5 or so (which you could probably obtain during your first playing session of the game for just a couple of hours) you have to spend ungodly amounts of time to get that next level or item.

UO sounds kind of interesting. Also your talk of just sitting around and doing nothing in the game remnds me of a anime series about online gaming called .Hack. One of the characters in one of the .Hack series did nothing but sit around and talk.



I played the first of the .Hack games... it simulated a crappy MMO, just offline and without the people and it sucked...

I was talking about the anime not the game. As for the game I thought it was better than basically all MMOs just fo the simple fact that it didn't have a world of Dbags. That and it also had a story rather than endless sandbox. But that view is just a bit of my personal bias against bad games.

Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence A Monster Appears I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?

About MMO games do rebember there isn´t option of pause. Imagine you are playing, and telephone rings, or the bell of door.... or family ask you help to clean the house.

 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

About MMO games do rebember there isn´t option of pause. Imagine you are playing, and telephone rings, or the bell of door.... or family ask you help to clean the house.



Yeah, that's always fun... I usually just cast stoneskin and log out, by the time my hp are actually affected by attacks I'm usually logged...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Is it fun? Imagine you are playing with some friends, and you are crossing a *censured" dungeon to kill the final boss. You are spend a lot of potions and magic item.. the victory is near and...

 RIIIIING, RIIIIIIIIING, RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING!!!!

 The daugnther of  neighbors is ringing the doorbell because she needs your internet conection and wikipedia for her homework.  When you are again in the game your friends are out. Now killing the boss if to difficult. You have spent the expensive magic item for nothing and if you want a new try you must do all the long *censured* dungeon again...   

My suggestion is off-line option, and a multiplayer option (you are playing with friends, but isn´t real MMO, and bigger web server isn´t necesary). A quest/mission editor too would be advisable.     


And a hybrid store. I meant if you buy a new hero class, PC race or monter of the videogame, too you the official equivalent stats for the "classic" (pen and pencil) rpg.


 Do you thing the electronic tablets will be the rpg of the future?

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

If you include an offline option in an MMO you will have cheating out of the wazoo. Since there's no way to check whether that super-rare item you have was actually earned in the offline version or just hacked into the offline version between logins.

You will also find that MMOs are really boring. Their only saving grace usually is the interaction with other players. 

As for a multiplayer option where it isn't a real MMO and you just play with friends, Guildwars does that. Once you leave the city walls, it's just you and friends, no random people around. It even supports "single play" in that you can fill out your party with bots that travel with you. 
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
 The solution is easy. When a new character is created, you have to choose option of "lone wolf" or "citizen of world". "Lone wolf" is for off-line and multiplayer games (top 8 or 10), but no MMO. "Citizen of world" is for MMO. You can play off-line with a "citizen of world" character but the super-rare item only can be found and used in the MMO. 

Other option is the super-rare item found by "lone wolf" in off-line can´t be use in MMO. It isn´t really lost, but in "ghost inventary" and it can used only off-line+ multiplayer game.    

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

You could still cheat infinite money or exp in the offline mode. If you'd want to do this then basically when going from online to offline, you'd receive a copy of the character and nothing you do offline affects your online character.

Not sure if it'd be worth the hassle, but that's the only way to keep it fair. You lose control once you allow a character to be uploaded to the server since you have no way to validate whether or not it was fairly created.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
You will also find that MMOs are really boring. Their only saving grace usually is the interaction with other players. 

As for a multiplayer option where it isn't a real MMO and you just play with friends, Guildwars does that. Once you leave the city walls, it's just you and friends, no random people around. It even supports "single play" in that you can fill out your party with bots that travel with you. 


Human interaction or for a better term the community is the only saving grace of basically all MMOs. However, in my experience it's also the most annoying things. You like spending time and talking with a few individuals, but at the same time you have to deal with every Dbag on the MMO in some way or another. All in all I think there is more negatives to the social aspect of MMOs than there is positives. But that's just from my experiences. Not sure about other people.

There are a few MMOs that do that sort of thing. Which is cool if you have friends because such MMOs can tend to make it almost possible to progress past level/dungeon/area x without a party. Which a hired AI companion can be good for this but only sometimes. AI can sometimes suck. Another is that if you have to hire 1-X hirelings per dungeon/adventure it can quickly burn into your funds and run you dry. But all the loot is yours. but that's only beneficial if there is a set loot amount and not based on number of PCs. But also doing it solo like that turns into much more of a sandbox than it needs to be IMO and gets boring quick.

Hmm a thought

how 'bout rather than WotC make some failure of a first/third person MMO they make kind of RTS or group/party* MMO.
____________________
*not sure what word would work because I can't think of an MMO that uses a format that I'm thinking of. I'm thinking back to games like IceWind Dale where you control a group of up to like 6 PCs. They can be of any composition you would like. So I was thinking of something like that but in an MMO style. So rather than controlling 1 character ya control a party. And if things are set up with rules and abilities akin to 4e each character shouldn't have some super overwhelming number of commands to sift through and most of their at-wills and multi-use encounter powers can be on some kind of auto use ability to cut down on the amount of micro one needs. anyways just a thought. of course that downside still to the whole thing is that it's an MMO. T_T

Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence A Monster Appears I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?

The daugnther of  neighbors is ringing the doorbell because she needs your internet conection and wikipedia for her homework.



Two questions:

1) Isn't this what WiFi networks are for?

2) Did you steal this scenario from a porno movie?

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Here's a shout out for Scholars' Books & Games in Bridgewater, MA, and for Paladin's Place in Darmstadt, Hessen, Germany where I was stationed for two years. Support your FLGS!

Attacking the darkness since 1987, turning creatures sideways since 1994.

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