The morals of conceding.

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There has been a lot of talk for and against conceding during a match. Some say there is nothing wrong with it. Quitting before the end of a match can save time. It's been said its a show of acceptance in defeat because the player still gets a loss. Why does it matter if they quit? Implying there is nothing wrong with giving up.

Here is where I stand and I would like to hear your thoughts. It's annoying. Basically its an insult. I understand if you lack the self respect to try when faced with adversity. <------ retracted Haha. No the %#$@ I don't. Man-up. Don't be a quitter...

Examples:
Leaving because there is no deck advantage (there is none in 2012 in my opinion)
Leaving because you lost a pivotal creature in the opening rounds. 2-4 turns.
Leaving because I countered your mana ramp or your polymorph.
Leaving because of a mistake or being baited.
Being out-played in general.
Leaving because I played a creature that's meaner then yours.

All of these I have seen. More in 09 then 12 but still enough to deserve attention.

It's a clear sign of frustration and lack of respect. A detachment from the game and your opponent. Not accepting the loss that could be avoided through smart play. It's saying. "I have time to watch you lose,
I may even have time to extend it to humiliating defeat. However, I have more important things to do then watch you win." What happened to friendly gaming? Learning from your opponent to improve. Playing better players to influence your own ability? Rematches?

Some of you might say I'm taking the game too seriously. Well an answer to that. I'm not ;) I don't know about the rest of you but I played paper magic for years. If you did then I'm sure you can imagine this situation. You just disabled your opponent with good timing and he or she is pissed. They grab their cards and storm out of the shop. Personally? I think "what a cry baby" and go about my business. Annoyed simply at the lack of sportsmenship.

There are very acceptable reasons for conceding. Cocky opponent is drawing out the end for a big and pointless assault. You have somewhere to be. The game is excruciating for whatever reason. Especially mirror matches.... All except the first example should require a message. Maybe a friend request for a possible rematch? I'm not really sure. Id like to know where the rest of you stand.
I always stick it out, even if all hope is lost and my opponent is going for overkill.  Just gotta keep your head high and keep on fighting.

I beleive it is fully acceptable to concede if you are going to loose on your next turn or if you know that loosing is inevitable (which is very easy to tell just by reading a couple moves ahead) these are things that you have to deal with when playing Magic. There is no sense in continuing to play, rather, scoop your cards and start shuffling again.

Concession is perfectly acceptable. How can you earnestly be upset about winning a game faster? Just as in chess, grandmasters will concede if they see their strategy crumble. I don't think it's disrespectful, just a matter of what they know, if i get terribly mana-starved early in the game and my opponent is rolling out an aggro deck, I'm am not gonna sit there and twiddle my thumbs for 10 minutes on a loss I already see coming. That being said, ill generally just tell my opponent to full swing and get it over with asap (if I truely felt there was no way to win) atleast this way you don't leave the lobby and you have a shot at a redemption match. I have played MTG physically for years as well both casually and competitivly. People still concede, it's just a little nicer cause instead of just leaving you usually get a handshake and a GG.
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I don't mind a concede. And it makes me laught and the guy quits before the final hit, more like a rage quit  
It's better that way IMO, it means the guy didn't want a rematch and you were better than him.
Climb the ladder, maybe you'll meet less people like that. 
Well because you played the actual card game you understand what I'm looking for in the digital version. In a physical match if you did the same thing people do in online matches it would be really rude. I wasn't talking about mana problems or long games. I was talking about the slightest change in tempo in my direction doesn't mean concede.... Not without saying anything.. there is no character in that. I keep hearing the same examples of why its ok to concede. Chess. Over and over. When your across from your opponent and you concede you bow out with respect. Sometimes you play again. You don't stand up and run out of the room because someone took your rook early.

To me conceding an online game is the equivalent of tipping your king in chess. Beginner's may want to see the game play out fully for education or pride, but players who understand the game can tell just by looking at the board when all hope of victory is lost. This is not meant as a slight to the winning player, it just saves time for all parties involved.


In DotP '12 if your opponent concedes you still get credit for the win and you still unlock a card if able. There is absolutely no reason to be offended by a surrender unless you're really excited to watch the final combat animation. It seems incredibly egotistical to demand your opponent to stick around to the bitter end well past the time the game has been decided, just so you and he can watch you win. You won anyway, you're just wasting time at that point. Better to move on to a new match where the outcome is at least undetermined.


And I don't ever concede unless I know I've lost. I can't speak for these strawmen players who ragequit after losing a Lord of Illusion on the 2nd turn, but in that situation I would still be trying to win. Even then it's hard to be too upset with that example, because you did just get a win. It's not like online games are in such small supply that we need to mourn them when they end. Just start up another one and you'll probably find a more worthy opponent.


And then there are players who you respect right up until the last turn. After a hard-fought battle all they need to do is attack with that same creature that's been a thorn in your side and the game is over. But what's this? They're casting irrelevant spells? Buffing attackers? Eff' that. In those situations I go from respectfully allowing them to see their final assault, to quickly conceding because they're wasting my time for no apparent reason.


And then there are the times where a match just starts bad and you can't wait to play again with a hand that isn't do gimped. Let's say you start playing and decide to mulligan your first hand. Then you get a 7 card hand with just 1 land. Do you go back for 6? Let's assume in this instance you decide to roll with the 1 land and hope for the best. If you fail to draw a land on your 2nd, 3rd, 4th turns... how long are you willing to keep going? At some point I will make the mental ultimatum, "If I don't draw a land this turn I will concede, because at this point it would be impossible to win." At this point it doesn't matter who you're playing. They could have a small kingdom on their side of the table, or be playing a crappy deck. They realize as much as the mana-screwed player does what is happening, and unless they're a selfish child they're not going to mind skipping the following turns of swinging at the defenseless player until 20 damage is dealt.


Platform note: On the Xbox 360 only player matches allow you to go back to the lobby with the player you just finished playing, but ranked matches will always put you back at the main menu. Obviously if I was playing a player match and wanted a rematch, I wouldn't concede.

Well because you played the actual card game you understand what I'm looking for in the digital version. In a physical match if you did the same thing people do in online matches it would be really rude. I wasn't talking about mana problems or long games. I was talking about the slightest change in tempo in my direction doesn't mean concede.... Not without saying anything.. there is no character in that. I keep hearing the same examples of why its ok to concede. Chess. Over and over. When your across from your opponent and you concede you bow out with respect. Sometimes you play again. You don't stand up and run out of the room because someone took your rook early.

Granted, there is a respectful way to concede. I'm merely stating that conceding is acceptable in the right circumstance. Plus, you never really know what's going on with the other player, for all you know their dog just came running though the room on fire. (A bit of an exaggeration, I know, but you get what I mean).Laughing What I find more unacceptable is when you have a close match with an opponent and regardless of the victor they refuse a rematch. Normally this would be fine if they were stopping play, but alot of times they just don't want the challenge.
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To me conceding an online game is the equivalent of tipping your king in chess. Beginner's may want to see the game play out fully for education or pride, but players who understand the game can tell just by looking at the board when all hope of victory is lost. This is not meant as a slight to the winning player, it just saves time for all parties involved.


This

OP is projecting conceding as "storming out shop" whereas I see it as the above, shaking his hand. You know you've won, I acknowledge the fact. I don't care if other people think it's rude, they should get over themselves.

In paper magic I very rarely played to 0 HP. Only beginners felt the need to, same as chess, checkers or SC2.

resident360 explained everything.

Sometimes I just quit because the other guy makes me lose my time. When I sacrificed my 3 creatures to his Ulamog and I have 2 HP left, he didn't have to draw 4 more cards then Rite of Replication on his creature and do a bunch of useless stuff...

Yep, sometimes it's better to just quit. 
@ resident360 I'm glad you are into the conversation and I hate to be the guy who asks for opinions and just contradicts them Haha. I'm going to have to oppose you on this one (except the part where you said people draw out the win for no reason) :D. Like I said before chess is not really the topic of discussion and has even less to do with the topic if your playing across from the person. Tipping your king while face to face is part of accepting the loss. The next step is to congratulate the winner and if you like to learn ask for a rematch.

Magic is not a race and yes my time is valuable but not while playing magic lol. The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. . Being ranked is easy but its no goal of mine so wins are not important. To be honest the challenge is all I care about. The fight. Or surprise. I like seeing players be crafty and resourceful. It's unsatisfactory to play a quitter. I never leave matches early because in the many years I have been playing I know what a well placed card and some quick thinking can do. I'm not saying conceding is wrong. Just The method and reason are often annoying.
It would be nice if conceding didn't kick you out to the main menu.... most times I'd like to play the opponent again.

Maybe give a pop-up warning after conceding... "Would you like to return to the main menu or 2 player lobby?"
Yea. I'll just remind any of you what the original post was in case some of you are looking for an argument. I said I find conceding annoying and listed the situations. I also said not all conceding is bad. There is nothing really wrong with it. In the situations a explained I am annoyed. I read a comment that even suggested playing a match to the end is for beginners. That's just absurd.

The game says it best "its ok to have 1 life as long as your opponent has 0" I am justified and being annoyed by the lack of character displayed when a scrub loses his vampire nocturnus and leaves. No life has even been taken. Match is far from decided and the sissy just lost his advantage.
Reading comprehension...
 Only beginners felt the need to



does not equal

I read a comment that even suggested playing a match to the end is for beginners.



And your original post is argumentative, polarising and on the verge of trollish with your opening statement. With statements like

t's annoying. Basically its an insult. I understand if you lack the self respect to try when faced with adversity. <------ retracted Haha. No the %#$@ I don't. Man-up. Don't be a quitter...




And then there are players who you respect right up until the last turn. After a hard-fought battle all they need to do is attack with that same creature that's been a thorn in your side and the game is over. But what's this? They're casting irrelevant spells? Buffing attackers? Eff' that. In those situations I go from respectfully allowing them to see their final assault, to quickly conceding because they're wasting my time for no apparent reason.




This is the only reason i will concede other than a emergency. I don't mind the big final attack with all their creatures that much but its the playing lands, irrelevant spells, regenerating creatures and stuff that bugs me.

In general though i don't like conceding, i can't be bothered to explain all the reasons why again as i have done so in numerous other threads on this forum, but basically i play magic for fun, and i find it irrelevant when people say "who cares if your opponent concedes, you still get the win" as i am not playing just for the win i am playing for the enjoyment of the game.

P.S @ resident360

Just some general advice, in DotP if you care about winning you really shouldn't start with a hand that only contains 1 land that often.
I used to concede all the time in the previous game. I no longer do because in this game, you can have numerous matches with the same player with minimal effort, as long as nobody quits. However, I don't take it as a slight if my opponent quits, as it still counts as a win. Many people take the opportunity when they have a win on the board to do as much as they can to play spells, beef up their guys and just revel in the fact that they have won. I endure it and play again, but I can certainly understand people who don't want not only their time wasted, but their noses being rubbed in their defeat. If there were a chat function, and it were easier to type "gg" before a concession, maybe people would not feel so slighted, but IMO one shouldn't assume that just because someone knows they lost and wants to move on that it's a sign that they are angry at the victor.
I saw that coming. Don't stress it ok? I'm not trying to be a jerk and I really don't want to argue. I apologize if my comment came off as trollish. Just ranting about the people I see on the playstation network. None of you were being targeted.

About the other stuff: get a higher rank and you won't run into those people? Play better opponents? I am ranked on playstation network. I'm somewhere in the top 200. Not trying to go any further because the vast majority of them are boosters. Those players who you call better even suggested I start boosting. Told me how to go about it. I'm all set.

Don't think you need boosting to get higher. (although maybe on Ps3 where you can seek out counters).

I'm playing every deck basically and in the top 25 on steam. There's people on this forum in the top 10 that play Dragons, Apex and SoS and aren't really boosting, just playing a lot of games (and admittingly, probably conceding, if a match is over I don't wanna hang around, I wanna start a new one asap).

The problem with your statement "get a higher rank and you won't run into those people". Unfortuantely higher personal rank doesn't mean your opponents are higher ranked. The matchmaking is very random, unlike something like SC2.

@r0bzor:
If you're only saying that players who concede too early are hurting your enjoyment of the game, there is nothing for us to disagree on. But if all people who concede are depicted as annoying, insulting quitters who lack self-respect and won't face adversity, well, you can read mine and others' thoughts in this thread for the opposing viewpoint that there are appropriate times for conceding and it is often a benefit for all players.


And playing Magic is fun, but conceding to hurry up and get to the next game doesn't contradict that. I guarantee I will enjoy my time playing Magic more choosing my starting hand with the next guy than I will watching the last guy cast Mirrorworks instead of attacking for the win.

P.S @ resident360

Just some general advice, in DotP if you care about winning you really shouldn't start with a hand that only contains 1 land that often.



Very true. So much of the heavy deliberation in DotP is when to mulligan. What do you do when your next 7 cards are worse than the ones you just mulligan'd? Is it better to have 6 random cards or the dreaded 1 land or 1 spell hand? The answer isn't easy when there are so many mitigating circumstances you have to consider: your deck, your opponent's deck, the cost of the cards in your hand, how much of a disadvantage starting with less than 7 would be, etc. This could be a whole thread in itself, but you're right that playing a hand with 1 land is usually a terrible idea.

@Orthanc_eb

Complete agree!

@OP

Conceding is part of MTG, and you win if your opponent quits, takes lethal, decks out, or spontaneously combusts during a match! You SHOULD NOT CARE if they quit or not. If you have an emotional reaction to their emotional reaction of quitting, then they kind are beating you right? Getting emotionally distraught for someone quitting to you is like saying you're pissed at the guy that starting racing against your porsche in his camry and he quit because he realized it was a dumb venture in the first place. As stated earlier, only noobs feel the need to see their opponent's life total go to zero or even lower. And you know why? Because they need some reassurance to trample some innate insecurities. You should take your win and go to the next opponent. It's not disrespectful; it is there as a time saver and so people can progress with their next activities/duties/life. And this was not meant to be disrespectful before a rude response is conjured, thank you.
Orthanc_eb that wasn't my statement. I was quoting someone's advice who posted here and responding. The playstation network is full of boosters. I'm not one of them. I'm also not interested in ranking any higher.

For the record I have been playing magic for 13 years. I'm a Noob because I see my games to the end? I don't think that comment is disrespectful I just thinks its insanely idiotic. "trample some innate insecurities" I like that. I don't know but I think I have just been verbal'd. winning by objective makes me an insecure Noob who is often emotionally distraught. Sigh.....
" If you're only saying that players who concede too early are hurting your enjoyment of the game, there is nothing for us to disagree on."

That is almost exactly what I'm saying.

Within the first page I said I'm annoyed by these types of quitters: and listed them. I said its acceptable to concede in some situations not everyone who concedes is insulting me.

The topic of this post is "morals of conceding." There are right ways and wrong ways. There are some people who down right take the fun out of playing. I don't want all my matches to last 30 seconds. I want a damn challenge. I want a fight. Let me have some fun and stop quitting cause I killed your vampire nocturnus on the 4th turn!!!! BAH!
Im troubled how fast some people quit. And the timing. If I stump you early don't just leave. If you have somewhere to go be nice and send a message when you have time.
Conceding allows one player to allow another to win, or at the very least remove themself from the possibility of winning, and can be done for any reason at any time.  The only thing this thread has proven is that there are quite a few bad winners out there.

I would also like to note that the only issue I have with conceding is that it can be done at any time without recourse.  The only reason this is a problem is in free-for-all matches of greater than two players as when a player concedes they remove all of their cards from the table.  As that player can control exactly when they remove their cards they can directly impact the outcome of the match being played, despite accepting the loss.


EDIT:  Also, as morals are a personal view of what is right and wrong the entire premise of this thread is flawed.  If the OP wants to discuss the ethics of conceding then feel free but I couldn't care less how their biased experience has determined what is and is not acceptable for them.
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I agree i cant beleive there is 3 pages of discussion on such an easy topic, guess everyone else is here for the same reason as me... ( wasting time at work ) Tongue out

In-game text chat would solve this "problem".
I'm almost always conceding if I'm just about to lose, and I have no problem with others doing so either.

Though I would love to be able to write "gg" just before conceding, as a gesture of good manner.

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 This thread is getting too intense!



This is an eternal holywar. And as every other holywar - this one is totally pointless too.

i dont play ranked, as i place no value in a virtual ranking on a video game with a large random chance element. this ISNT chess, as much as people compare it. chess dosent have a situation where your opponent starts with 3 queens and you start with only pawns. you are on perfectly equal ground, and at a high level you know your opponent quit because you earned the win and he knows it.

in magic i actually concede a lot. this is not to say i dont play pretty well, and i tend to sync well with my teammate, and plan tactics together and a few turns ahead. our gameplan may be roughshod and sketchy, but its still a gameplan of mediocre depth, accounting for a few mishaps.
Hoevever...a large amount of the 2HG games i play (because i like the social element when on ventrillo) are populated by people who play super-competitively on non-ranked in a game where the standing isnt equal, mostly because they dont like being challenged and dont have the guts to play ranked. i play apex and koth. a pretty good deck with strong monsters and what is largely considered an underpowered deck with the coolest card in the game (magma phoenix). why? because i like how it plays. not because i win, not because its the best. because i play non-ranked and realise it is only a game, played for FUN, also because forcing a draw with bloodfire collosus and magma phoenix is funny with friends who dont rage at me for it.

alas 12 year old kids with steam accounts do not see it this way and 80% of my matches consist of either double blue, double elf or a prat with ancient depths. its pretty much guaranteed i will concede on the first two once 5 20/20 elves are on the field with trample, same goes for turn 4 double time warp 10/10 fliers. kioras deck tends to see me to late game, but as soon as i counter lorthos before he cripples both of us single handedly, sacrifice cards and many blockers to kill ulamog and finally get, for instance, something like engulfing slagworm or bloodfire collosus out only to have him make 5 copies of it, bounce mine back to my hand for an army of tokens i cannot kill alltogether without trample and play the OTHER annihilator that is indistructable that was fished out of the deck, healing her for 11 in the process, i honestly feel that my opponent does not DESERVE the win, and will have to make do with killing some AI and getting their mother to tell them they are special.

if this game was balanced then yea, i would mind if someone quit, and on games that require tactics i refuse to quit because it is my own fault my time is being spent losing, as i did not put neccesary thought or practice in required to spend it winning. but against something that you only had the outside chance of beating anyway.... i dont see the issue at all.
I would normally concede in Magic, but for this game I don't specifically because I know that some people take offence to it. So as a courtesy I don't ever concede for THIS game. What I do in paper Magic is irrelevant.

On the other side of the coin, sometimes when I am winning I will do things to solidify the win. Have you ever attacked for what you thought was lethal damage into some instant or unforseen play on the part of your oppoonent that seriously jepordizes your ability to win thereafter? I know I have. For this reason I try to at least have a second lethal option before I commit to a lethal swing that would leave me vulnerable thereafter. Unless of course the opponent is tapped out, top decking, and has no blockers or some other rediculously lame duck situation on their side is happening.

My point is, we shouldn't always take offence to some doubling down on the kill. I usually try to do it in a tasteful way however, like first I'll attempt to kill you with Corrupt or Spire Barage before even entering my lethal attack phase, or something to that affect. 
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I always stick it out, even if all hope is lost and my opponent is going for overkill.  Just gotta keep your head high and keep on fighting.

Only time I concede is if the player(s) are just messing around with me. i.e. they could have easily killed me but instead just keep me on the brink of death so that they can try to inflict as much damage as possible in one turn. Unfortunatly, there's just as many of those ****s out there as there are quitters.
I always stick it out, even if all hope is lost and my opponent is going for overkill.  Just gotta keep your head high and keep on fighting.

Only time I concede is if the player(s) are just messing around with me. i.e. they could have easily killed me but instead just keep me on the brink of death so that they can try to inflict as much damage as possible in one turn. Unfortunatly, there's just as many of those ****s out there as there are quitters.



I very rarely do what you implied but not for the reasons you implied. I very rarely(more often in single player or with a friend) will knock my opponent to 1 hp to give them a chance, see if they can pull something out and finsh me. I can see how it could be annoying as I am kind of "playing" with them, but I would much rather see a loss in the matches I do this to see what kind of come back the opponent can make.

On the subject of the conceding, I concede if next turn I know I will lose(because they won, and I want to get in a another match faster and with another player(not because they won, but because I like to try the different spices of magic players)). Or if the RNG is deciding that I'm going to lose that match, i.e. Mana Flood/Drought or not pulling the cards that I need to pull the game around.

I only concede because I would much rather get into my next "exciting" match than wait for them to finsh me, not trying to damage anyone's ego.
Conceding is fine. There are times when I'm playing a player and basically have him beat and I want him to quit. I read like half of your post OP and stopped because it was retarded. Sorry.
I concede when I know I lose.

Aka other day someone (mono blue) had a flier, he time warped, I could only block him once, then would lose the next turn so I left the game.

Conceding is just being smart and accepting defeat.  No problem here.
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the only time conceding annoys me is if someone concedes for no apparent reason. it makes me wonder why they started the game in the first place

otherwise its perfectly acceptable imo 
I joined a game, it was Fire (him) vs Vamps (me), he won obviously.
But he kicked me out the lobby after he won.
I wanted a rematch... I refreshed the FFA lobby, found him, joined and he started the game quickly (I suppose he didn't recognize me).
I had my rematch and won, he conceded.

WTH... don't be a ****, fight like a man! 
/facepalm to everyone that doesn't accept conceding.

I don't like to waste time. You've won. Accept it.
I will take a win however, whenever, but it is really being a poor player to concede if you kept a one lander and whiffed turn two and/or three for land sitting on 20 life. Or missing a land drop or mana ramp on turn three if you playing AD sitting on 20 life.

Again, I'll take the win, but if people want to act like babies because they didn't draw perfect perfect when keeping a hand they shouldn't have, then I wonder why they even play the game.

If you want to take the risk of keeping a bad hand, man up and play it out at least until the game is out of reach. Or, just cry about it and quit. Waste everyone else's time but yours unless you get a premium hand.
Bingo
The AI never concedes so players don't see the behaviour until they play humans.  Maybe we need a 'Certain Victory' flash that comes across the screen in both versions when a simple move (just attack or use visible abilities) would finish the game.  Thing is that there are lots of answer cards that can change this so it'd be probably such a pain to code that an optional system may be better.



My Solution

P2 knows they have lost & selects concede 

P1 sees - "P2 Begs For Mercy - X to accept victory, Y to fight to death"

X ends the game as now
Y ends the game for P2 as now, P1 gets to finish off the replacement AI at their leisure for satisfaction.

No-one feels robbed, no-one wastes time. 

Thoughts? 
Stalling the game isn't a good solution.
The only thing that should be fix is a concede shouldn't kick you out of the lobby. 
Stalling the game isn't a good solution.
The only thing that should be fix is a concede shouldn't kick you out of the lobby. 



Stalling for whom?

The conceder exits as normal.  The person who won either has one extra button press to see the win screen (oh noes! - heck you could have an option to auto accept concessions for those that want it under advanced) or they get to play on for the victory with the other player replaced by AI which solves the OP's problem.  
The AI never concedes so players don't see the behaviour until they play humans.  Maybe we need a 'Certain Victory' flash that comes across the screen in both versions when a simple move (just attack or use visible abilities) would finish the game.  Thing is that there are lots of answer cards that can change this so it'd be probably such a pain to code that an optional system may be better.



My Solution

P2 knows they have lost & selects concede 

P1 sees - "P2 Begs For Mercy - X to accept victory, Y to fight to death"

X ends the game as now
Y ends the game for P2 as now, P1 gets to finish off the replacement AI at their leisure for satisfaction.

No-one feels robbed, no-one wastes time. 

Thoughts? 



AI has conceded to me twice now.. chandra, it seems she only ever plays flame rift (4 damage to each player) when it will kill her by playing it.
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