7/01/2011 LD: "A 'Walker on the Wild Side"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Latest Developments, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.

Hehe... Here comes Garruk...
Sigh, why'd you have to make him cost 5....

I'd rather have the old one.
Why does he have to be so bad?
man his first ability should have definitley been +2 instead of only +1, cool stuff, honeslty i think its nice just to see new faces, but having these guys here already makes me miss the lorwyn trio, hopefully they only get printed just in this set and we can go back to the original guys :p

Looks like fun! He's my favorite of the new ones.  I'm afraid that the features you advertise about Jace and Chandra are the ones I dislike.  Jace's +0 seems incredibly frustrating in Limited - you have one turn to entirely kill him or you're dead; merely wounding him won't help, because his ability to deck you costs no loyalty.  Chandra's single in her mana cost rubs me the wrong way; we've been taught to expect planeswalkers to require color commitment.  It's not like takes much - a balanced two-color deck should have no problem paying that.


Garruk, Primal Hunter, on the other hand, doesn't have either of those qualities.  He's also excellent Green flavor - he cares about making creatures, cares about having creatures, and cares about having lands.  He defends himself well, and he's also a Soul's Majesty without the risk of being blown out by removal in response to your spell.  Unfortunately, his third ability is showy, but probably Ultimately irrelevant - if an endless swarm of 3/3 beasts isn't getting the job done, it's probably because your opponent has Day of Judgment, and 6/6 wurms won't get past that.

Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
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Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
I agree with Fractal.  In standard the endless swarm of 3/3's should be enough to win.  The 6/6 doesn't seem like much.  Out of the three new ones I think I like him the most, but still miss the old on most of all.  The untapping two lands was just soooo good.
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
I don't know what's with all the haters, but he seems quite good. Elspeth, Knight Errant was quite hard to kill and you are usually just chumping with 1/1s for a while. 3/3s can trade or go on the offense very quickly. Combine with haste (Urabrask) and his ultimate is very very scary. Really my dream scenario involves Lotus Cobra (of course) T3 Garruk +1. T4 six drop or what not -3 Garruk draw like 5 + cards and still have Garruk in play, yikes.

Overall I think he is a real upgrade and look forward to getting some. Deffintely the chase card of the set. Kudos on a powerful yet balanced design WotC.
I am so down on planeswalkers. Every time I see one previewed, I'm imagining the drafts it will suck the fun out of. Every month that goes by, my opinion of the card type goes down. I can opt out of using them in casual and my cube, but sadly there's no way to avoid them in draft. (Yes, I'm irked about Overrun, too.)

I know Wizards will keep making walkers because they drive sales and branding, but I fervently wish they had never been invented.
Chandra is a solid design - and better upgrade against any of the other Chandras. Jace isn't a 2.0, but perhaps a 1.5 - which is a good sign.
I don't generally like the new Garruk - at its cost, it doesn't have fabulous abilities. Though giving card draw to green may be his ultimate advantage, but I prefer to win with Garruk Wildspeaker's ultimate rather than a wall of 6/6 vanillas. 
You can tell Garruk is a wild man because he's the only one of the three not wearing eyeliner.
You can tell Garruk is a wild man because he's the only one of the three not wearing eyeliner.



Q F T



"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
These planeswalkers, Jace and Garruk? They're not balanced at all. I prefer Jace Beleren and Garruk Wildspeaker because they don't win the game on their own. I'm still skeptical that WotC will actually give us real answers to these cards. Chandra looks fine, and easy enough to race, but unless Innistrad provides some real graveyard interacting cards, I have a feeling this Jace could simply make mill decks too good.

As for the new Garruk, I'm not sure spitting out tokens should be without a drawback. It just feels wrong. What the heck happened to the design philosophy that led to the printing of Sarkhan the Mad? Clearly, it's been thrown out the window. As is evident in his nearly identical brother, Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas.

If you're going to print these cards, you're going to either need top notch cards to deal with them the way Pithing Needle and Oblivion Ring solved them while Alara and M10 were in Standard, or you're going to be reaching for that banhammer -- again.

EDIT: Oblivion Ring is a confirmed reprint for M12. A much better answer to planeswalkers than Beast Within, in my experience. 
Lol @ Emo Jace.
(He is emo cuz he be banned)
Chandra will be fun with time walk. If there is one in the set, it is gonna be a deck.

HOLY OMGFDFGZ GARRUK!
SKILL INTENSIVE PROS ONLY
This isn't bad. A good Stall ability, Card Draw, and an actual Win condition. At least green got some love.
IMAGE(http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/blitzschnell/0a90721d221e50e5755af156c179fe51.jpg?v=90000)

As one who usually steps up to defend columnists for their visions, I find myself positioned differently today. #abouttobeatamemetodeath


New planeswalkers are exciting. The seventh new planeswalker in a set is a lot less exciting than the first. While the hook of five new planeswalkers is strong, I didn't think that the things necessary to make the hook work were what best served the individual cards.


Yes, how many hundreds of times have I heard "Five Titans?  Boring!  Why couldn't there be 4 Titans and a reprinted Child of Gaea, instead?"  Good call, not wanting the whole cycle to be exciting.  Now I can look forward to that experience of wanting to open my first new Chandra and getting my 5th old Sorin instead.  Fun! #sarcasm #whatthehelllapille


A while ago, we had a conversation about how many planeswalkers we wanted to have in Standard at one time.


"...and decided it should be ONE.  We named him Jace, the Mindsculptor. Until you brats ruined it by boycotting tournaments." #unfinisheddevthoughts #seriouslywhatthehelllapille


In short, we needed a plan for the year-over-year continuity from core set to core set, and the five-new-planeswalker plan would shoot any such plan in the foot.

That's continuity with M11 from whom all 5 Titans survived?  Or continuity with M13 which isn't designed yet and which would do well to keep planeswalkers and change other Mythics?  #temporarypassuntilfuturecolumn


Interesting that it's 5-mana green card drawing, except that it won't work when you need draw the most - no creatures in play.  Harmonize it's not, but +1ing while protecting yourself isn't bad.  I will probably miss the old Garruk though.  Which is to say I already miss him since he hasn't seen much play in 2 years.  #probablyaboutasgoodaschandra


Two of them were pretty rough, and although I could see the effort behind them, they weren't cards I was interested in making.


So what you're saying is, no one in R&D can design a good black Planeswalker?  Once-a-year control sideboard one-of is the best a black Planeswalker's ever going to be? #editbecauseiforgottomeme

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DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

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I'm not liking how Blue's great strength (card drawing) is being used more (and sometimes better) in green. Blue doesn't even have the best cantrips.

Garruk, Primal Hunter other than his middle ability, looks pretty good. I'd have made the middle ability: "-3: Search your library for a creature with converted casting cost less than or equal to the power of target creature you control and put it onto the battlefield." Wordy, but much more Green themed than card drawing.

Back to blue. Jace, Memory Adept's ability is going to be nuts. Its Raven Guild Master that doesn't need to attack, and is hard to kill. If Jace is dropped on turn five, your opponent could be as low as 38 cards. On turn 6, they could be down to 27. And that is without any manipulation. At the least, it should be a -1. His first ability is good. This card has a good chance of making it into Standard play.

Chandra, the Firebrand is 2/3 crap. The -2 ability is great.  The quote "ultimate" -6 ability is crap. The +1 ability isn't impressive at all. Its an improvement from the previous Chandra; but, crap is still crap. Especially when compared to the other Planeswalkers. It should be 2 damage. 

MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green). He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one." I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago." ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** MaRo: During a playtest, I played a Reaper from the Abyss. I attacked each turn, while my opponent would chump block (he had a lot of fliers), and then I killed a second creature. This happened until he had only one creature left. I attack, he blocked, and then the following dialogue occurred: Him: Kill your demon. Me: What? Him: My guy died so you have to kill a creature. Me: Yeah, but why would a demon kill himself? Him: I don't know. He's depressed there's no one left to kill. Me: That doesn't make any sense. Him: I don't care. It's what the card says. I then take out my pen, and wrote "non-Demon" on it. Him: You can't do that. Me: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

Interesting that it's 5-mana green card drawing, except that it won't work when you need draw the most - no creatures in play.


His ability gets the most benefit from having one big one, though, not a bunch of small ones. It evens out.

On the other hand, his other two abilities are geared toward filling out your board anyway, so the card drawing is still a bit reudundant. On the phantom third hand, however, the constant stream of 3/3's probably means you'll be throwing them away like candy.
So the first one made call of the herd trash. Then you made this one-and you banned your work. Quit-you suck at this.

It is always summer of multiplayer and none of you get it. Hire anyone that knows why walkers are trash when it comes to fun.
Eh, decent, but probably worse than the original Garruk. Jeez, the best planeswalker in the set is a reprint. Guess JTMS made them decide to stop pushing them so hard.
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Boo.  I've been waiting since I saw the art from Chandra the Firebrand teased for the new Chandra, since she and Elspeth are my favourite walker characters, but this is disappointing.  She seems rather fragile, and her ultimate ability seems like it was made with multiplayer in mind instead of duels. The only cool thing is that her second ability sounds like it would work great in Pyromancer's Ascension Decks, at least until Zendikar rotates out.

But Garruk, now that's a walker... and such a tight design too. make creatures, draw cards from creatures, ensuring you probably don't miss a land drop. drop lots of lands, get lots of really big creatures... and I'm sure it's not a coincidence that Garruk's wurms will trade with the Titans in combat.

As for Jace, the Not Broken... I like it.  And it takes a lot for me to like something from blue.
~ Current Decks I'm Playing or Building ~ (Click a deck's name to see list) [] CorpseJunk Menace/Township Counters (Standard) [] Reanimation/Clerics Theme Deck - Commander: Ghost Dad [] Devouring Tokens (Planechase, Multiplayer) [] Krark-Clan Ironworks: 2012 Edition (Modern) [] Azorious Turbo Fog (Modern)
You can tell Garruk is a wild man because he's the only one of the three not wearing eyeliner.



I wouldn't be so sure about that. Batman wore a similar mask and used eyeliner so the skin around his eyes didn't contrast with the mask.  Do you see any skin in Garruk's mask's slits? Wonder why?
You can tell Garruk is a wild man because he's the only one of the three not wearing eyeliner.



This post won the thread, and it should've been quoted in every subsequent post to honour it.

Eh, decent, but probably worse than the original Garruk. Jeez, the best planeswalker in the set is a reprint. Guess JTMS made them decide to stop pushing them so hard.



And thank the sweet merciful gods that they've decided to. There's enough problems with Mythic Rarity without a set of five planeswalkers which just win the game on their own. That's what makes Magic not fun. I remember playing against Elspeth Tirel in the Mirrodin Besieged prerelease. Despite having a deck three classes above his and an amazing board position (and poison as a win condition, making her congregate ability useless), it took me a huge amount of turns to finally get rid of her. I've found Elspeth, Knight-Errant in my Sealed Pool before, and didn't lose a single game in which I managed to cast her.

The first set of five planeswalkers was okay. I got Liliana Vess in Lorwyn prerelease, and she was balanced and fun. Sorin Markov is also okay. His high cost made him a lot weaker once he finally hit play, especially because none of his abilities helped to stop big creatures.

I'm divided on these new 'walkers. Chandra and Garruk look okay (though Garruk gets negative points for having a + ability with creatures, which just scares me), while Jace just looks horrible (again, I might add). Way to design a planeswalker with a useless ultimate. Jace is a four-turn clock. If your board position is okay when you play it, you win more quickly by just using his second ability four times (maybe five) than even trying to work up to his ultimate.
76125763 wrote:
Zindaras' meta is like a fossil, ancient and its secrets yet to be uncovered. Only men of yore, long dead, knew of it.
I've got to hand it to Wizards: They are rather good at pretending to have sense, only to crush that illusion mere days later. First they ban Jace, then Jace III appears. Firebrand shows they can design fun and balanced walkers, and then they show this abomination.

+1 for a beast: Stop the ridiculous self-defense walkers already. When you call out a planeswalker, you should be prepared to defend it. Not just call out a walker and watch him beat everything himself. -1 for a 3/3 was balanced on old garruk. What insanity drove you to making it +1 now?

-3 for massive carddraw: This is green, not blue. Planeswalkers already generate streams of cardadvantage, no need to ramp it up like this. Might have amusing if every player drew cards equal to their biggest creature's power. 
 
-6 for giant wurm army: Compare this to Liliana Vess. Same amount of turns to charge up, only this time you get a bigger and better army, it's harder to prevent (graveyard hate is easy, landhate not so much, and this army doesn't depend on big dead stuff),  and the +1 ensures you can't attack to prevent it. Stop with the bloody auto-wins for once. (Yes yes, you can wrath this. Jace could be countered, didnt stop him either.)

Wizards, please take a good look at the original 5 walkers. All 5 of them follow the same script (+X for minor effect, -X for useful effect, and a big bang ultimate) , and all 5 are balanced.

A few tips for designing balanced walkers:

1. No self-defense, unless its steeply costed (Garruk 1, Chandra 1) or only effective against small threats (Firebrand, Sorin).
2. Plus abilities are for charging up, they don't need to be useful. 
3. Ultimates should just have a big effect, not cause you win the game in any situation.

But congratulations on making me remember why I hate planeswalkers so much.
It's interesting to hear that I'm not the only person that doesn't like the impact Planeswalkers have on the game. I enjoy playing against humans, not inanimate objects that do the same thing every turn (player decisions on planeswalkers are pretty straight forward). My only hope is that planeswalkers are so nerfed that they're not worth playing. Unfortunately, Garruk is not such a planeswalkers. Un-fun cards like this make me thankful I gave up on Type 2 (then again, planeswalkers and their inherent mythic pricing is also the reason why I gave up).
I am so down on planeswalkers. Every time I see one previewed, I'm imagining the drafts it will suck the fun out of.

This is true, but at least they appear at Mythic now so the number of ruined draft games is low overall.



I'm divided on these new 'walkers. Chandra and Garruk look okay (though Garruk gets negative points for having a + ability with creatures, which just scares me), while Jace just looks horrible (again, I might add). Way to design a planeswalker with a useless ultimate. Jace is a four-turn clock. If your board position is okay when you play it, you win more quickly by just using his second ability four times (maybe five) than even trying to work up to his ultimate.



Makes me wonder if we're liable to see (aside from the obvious Elixir of Immortality) a Gaea's Blessing-alike or something similar. It'd be a reason to use, for example, nuJace's ultimate since if they're DRAWING the pseudo-Blessing, it won't trigger. Until then, of course, you've always got the big legendary Eldrazi as an alternative although devoting a slot to a 10-cost critter is not exactly a winning game plan.

About Garruk: I liked it, just about the minus... HOLY CRAP!!!!: Valakut, nothing more to say...

About Chandra: I like all Chandras... Firebrand included =D

About Jace: at least have a +1 with card draw... that was what I think at first... then: Eureka! Try to figure this out: Jace III ultimate + Zombie Infestation... Got it? Insane! 
Jace just looks horrible (again, I might add). Way to design a planeswalker with a useless ultimate. Jace is a four-turn clock. If your board position is okay when you play it, you win more quickly by just using his second ability four times (maybe five) than even trying to work up to his ultimate.


If your board position is only okay than you are better off riding his +1 for the card advantage until you stabilize, then you can ultimate to win. If your board position is good then you can just mill with his 0, but that's still not arguably better than just riding his +1 out for CA. I think Jace III is rather balanced. His 0 is a nice clock, but doesn't affect the board, his +1 is CA, and his ultimate is very, ultimate.
57170298 wrote:
Borrowing the East Wind (P3) - Haha, it's like Hurricane but for horsemanship? That makes hilariously little sense. "Oh man, the wind is so much worse up on this horse."
57044478 wrote:
Jon Finkel can win a Magic tournament with a ham sandwich. That doesn't mean ham sandwiches are now the metagame breaker.
97820278 wrote:
Koth: I'm the first viable red planeswalker. Who are you? Tibalt: I'm a two-mana red planeswalker. Koth: I'm the last viable red planeswalker.
About Garruk: I liked it, just about the minus... HOLY CRAP!!!!: Valakut, nothing more to say...

About Chandra: I like all Chandras... Firebrand included =D

About Jace: at least have a +1 with card draw... that was what I think at first... then: Eureka! Try to figure this out: Jace III ultimate + Zombie Infestation... Got it? Insane! 


Ah, Forbidian....
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
I don't like this. When I first started to play Magic, green was my favorite colour but this Garruk just spoils everything... +1 for a 3/3 beast is nothing but terrible, your only chance is to be in red and just burn him to death or you're gonna lose pretty quickly... Card drawing (and in such a number) doesn't belong to green at all... just imagine having the last card in hand, it's Overrun. You cast it, make your biggest creature even bigger and draw enough cards to win comfortably. Or maybe it's just a Groundswell, it's just for one mana, so you can draw say 9 cards and still play 2 of them...

The new Chandra is good and balanced. I could probably only object to her mana cost that makes her so splashable. It may be good for the game (of course, we don't know yet), but it isn't Chandra in her very character, who is very mono-red. And her second ability is very good with blue and I can even imagine some crazy stuff with elves. How many tokens can you make out of Elvish Promenade? I can see that the main intention of her second ability was to copy burn spells but... If she were for 2 red mana, it would be more clearly stated.

The new Jace... That's just a fail! It's not so long ago they banned Jace, the Mind Sculptor in Standard and now they design one that may be almost stronger (the second ability is just insane)! I don't understand. And my hatred for blue is pushed even further...
I absolutly love the new Garruk.  Yes, his last ability is pretty much unnecessary but the other two work well.  Get a beast every turn or draw at least three cards seems really good even if you don't want to make an instant horde of wurms.

I like the new Jace just as much but his art is not that good, which is mostly why he ended up under Garruk as my poll choice.
IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)
Wow. I came here to post my thoughts, but having read through a thread full of hate and arguments, I can't remember what I think any more.

Except that, uh, eyeliner is bad. I guess. 
Protects itself? Check
Draws cards when needed? Check
Gamewinning ultimate? Check.

What´s not to like about him? U/G control will love this guy.
Hmm, but the point is, not everyone is keen on playing blue just because it's the strongest color... Recently, there is no space for players of competitive constructed to be very creative. And that's the problem. If the game should be fun (and I guess it should), one could be able to play the color/colors he likes without feeling significantly weaker than players of other colors.
Not sure what I think of Garruk 2.0... he seems pretty darn good to me. Too good? Hard to say.

As an established Jace 2.0 hater who cheered the ban (whilst lamenting its tardiness) I'm going to surprise you by saying I wish Tom had gone with his earlier idea to reprint JTMS. Why? Well... firstly, so that it would be the only card to be banned before in standard it was (re)printed: a fitting acolade to the stupidest design ever and hopefully a beacon to design never ever to be so dumb again. Secondly, it would drive the prices of JTMS down - they are still disfunctionally high, and there are formats in which he is not (yet) banned. Thirdly, so that didn't have to make Jace 3.0. Now i don't hate Emo Jace, but I think its design can only be used in an unfun way to win, which means the name Jace would get the face-punch yet again. Which is a shame, because Jace 1.0 was simply fine.
Well, Jace Beleren was probably the strongest of the original Lorwyn planeswalkers, but the difference wasn't significant at all, the five were more or less at the same level... But with the two other Jaces, for me he's just the most despicable planeswalker character. I like the art of the last one, though, at least we can finally see his face.
It seems horrible to nitpick the first green 'walker in almost two years...but it is the first green 'walker in almost two years, after all. And I can see why. You don't seem to have that many ideas for green 'walkers, do you?

Sarkhan Vol's ultimate: make a bunch of dragons.
Nissa Revane's ultimate: make a bunch of elves.
Garruk, Primal Hunter's ultimate: make a bunch of wurms.

Garruk Wildspeaker's -1: make a 3/3.
Nissa Revane's first +1: make a 2/3.
Garruk, Primal Hunter's +1: make a 3/3.

Don't get me wrong, Garruk v2's second ability is a doozy. It's also the only thing that makes Garruk v2 more than an upgraded Nissa Revane. Red...arguably the most narrow colour in the game...has had far more varied and interesting planeswalker abilities than this.

And now do we have to wait another two years for the next green 'walker, or will you be able to take time out from your busy schedule of making white and blue ones?

On second reading, this sounds bitter. I guess my expectations were set a bit high. 
Only it just isn't fair that you make a 3/3 as a +1 ability, you protect your planeswalker and in the right time you just get a lot of 6/6 wurms. Still, there would be better and also green ideas - searching for lands or creatures for example. And Garruk Wildspeaker's ultimate was just fine. If you cast Overrun, you expect to finish the game with one mighty blow...

But does the opponent have a chance of winning if you make 3/3s and by the way charge up for the ultimately destructive last ability? Well, not much of it, unless that opponent is playing red... And now we're living in quite a strange world, bearing in mind that green and red are allied colors with red being the only option to deal with the green threat efficiently.

Maybe Vampire Hexmage would do the job but at the cost of sacrificing a creature, which, against green, isn't the best that can happen to you. In blue the job can be done with countermagic but one uses his Flashfreeze on Garruk only to quietly watch when the Primeval Titan hits the battlefield next turn...
I really like the new Chandra.

I do not like that Garruk's ability +1s. I think when 'walkers' own abilities help to protect themselves, those abilities should subtract loyalty and not add it.

I am sad because I finally have a deck that really likes Liliana Vess and she's going away. Sorin Markov is cool, but I don't know how worthy of the 6-slot he is.
I think when 'walkers' own abilities help to protect themselves, those abilities should subtract loyalty and not add it.



That's the point! And even Jace, the Mind Sculptor got it! As for Nissa Revane calling her little friends for +1 - there are just 4 of them and besides, Nissa starts at 2 loyalty, which makes her extremely vulnerable and triggers her ultimate at -7. It goes without saying that with an elf deck you are rather disappointed when you make it... that you weren't able to kill your opponent earlier Tongue out