Every time I visit the D&D web site these days, I think Pathfinder is winning

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Don't get me wrong, it makes me sad. I am big proponent of 4th edition, but I lost interest in my Insider account long ago. Very little of worth was being offered (this isn't breaking news I realize), but I didn't give up. I kept visiting the site, looking at the update headlines, hoping something would pique my interest. A friend of mine who still maintains an account, and from whose computer I am now typing, let me peruse the latest updates.

Let's see, an inordinate amount of fluff, virtually no crunch (Themes! Yippee!), lots of WHOO-HOO issue #400 pats of the back (not sure why) reprinting articles of yore that were written decades ago for editions of the game I stopped playing decades ago, editors being interviewed about their drinking problems when the magazines fell out of print, lots of check-out-what-the-designers-are-doing-in-their-games non-articles that want us to learn from their expositional examples, lots of art and map galleries posing as articles, lots of board game and video game updates with no bearing on the reason I read these updates in the first place, and new D&D comics that try too hard and fall short on the funny.

(Aside: In all my years of reading webcomics, I have never seen a comic so formally rolled out as Epic Campain. Just start the comic! Back it or don't! It's tantamount to DM's who read sixty minutes of back story before starting a new adventure path. Let the world speak for itself. The characters will either fall flat or resonate.)

There have been a lot updates to the classes lately which I have to say are more irritating than edifying. I love how some of them are initially pitched as "playtesting" errata, as if the readers actually have a say in whether or not these changes will take hold or go back to the drawing board. Who knows, maybe we do have a say. But who is we? The lurkers or the squeaky wheels? I find myself not caring anymore. I'm exhausted with 4th edition errata. I just want to play D&D, you know?

Meanwhile, Pathfinder is not only alive and well, but thriving. No, they aren't making Wizards of the Coast profit, but they aren't beholden to any corporate (read: Hasbro) masters demanding those profits. They're just interested in making a good role-playing game. And let's be honest, they're looking pretty slick these days.

That's when I realized my eye was wandering...

Should I take a look? Pathfinder doesn't suffer from lack of direction, they can't be accused of indecision (they've stuck with the core mechanics), and they don't waste time and resources dumbing-down existing content for newbies (yes, I'm looking at you Essentials).

On the other hand, I like 4th edition a lot, especially on a conceptual level. It's just become...I don't know...tiresome. It's like dating a really hot girlfriend, but the relationship has fallen into an apathetic rut. You try to spice things up, but none of your collective ideas take hold. No matter how aesthetically pleasing she is to your eyes, it's not meaningful enough to sustain the relationship anymore.

Meanwhile, this sexy goth girl has been trying to get your attention, who you have been overlooking all this time (yes, I just equated Pathfinder to a sexy goth girl). She might not have any of the qualities you liked about your old girlfriend, but isn't that the point? You fell for the flash, now it's time for the substance. Maybe she's it. Maybe, just maybe, she's both.

Pathfinder and 4th edition. Traditionally, when a new edition of D&D comes out, the old one gradually fades into antiquity. There's gnashing of teeth at first, but the change is predominately embraced. It's been over two years and Pathfinder has not faded. It seems more luminescent than ever. Try as the original designers did, to their credit, 4th edition failed to win a predominant audience. I think it might be time to see how Pathfinder streamlined 3.x once and for all.

In the end, a good game is NOT the shiny new mechanics. It's how much you don't notice them during game play. Well, okay, a good game is mostly the game master. Find one of those, and the game mechanics are largely irrelevant. For all other games, those mechanics had better not be irritating.
tl;dr

4th edition is dying, go check out Pathfinder

Sounds like an advertisement, despite the OP's claims.

I guess we get our dose of this thing for the week. 4E is dying, Pathfinder is rising #184.
...whatever
I am still trying to figure out what Pathfinder is supposedly winning. Was there a contest going on or something?
tl;dr

4th edition is dying, go check out Pathfinder

Sounds like an advertisement, despite the OP's claims.

I guess we get our dose of this thing for the week. 4E is dying, Pathfinder is rising #184.


I believe we've got another dose scheduled for Friday at around 2:37 PM Central time.
"Censorship is telling a man he can’t have a steak just because a baby can’t chew it.” ~Mark Twain

I would recommend giving Pathfinder a try, it is very easy to start a character based on the free rule set. I started with 4E when it first started, and then tried Pathfinder as well, but the same things that bugged me in 3.5 have not gone away. You may have a different experience.

I actually hang out more on the Pathfinder boards, but that has not dissuaded me in regards to the potential 4E has. Hopefully, by the end of the year, I will have a better feel in regards to the future of 4E. Until then, I will let WOTC know what I want the product to be.

I also agree, when did it become a contest?

When did it become a contest?



It was a contest from the beginning, from when 4E haters claimed 4E wasn't really D&D. Pathfinder "winning" proves that 3E was the real D&D and 4E has always been false.
...whatever
In what way are you a proponent of 4th edition.


  • You lost interest in your Insider account long ago.

  • You think very little of worth is being offered 

  • You think Dragon #400 pats istself on the back for no discernable reason

  • You think there is no content in the magazines

  • You think the comics are not funny.

  • The class updates irritate you.

  • You don't think "playtesting" means anything.

  • You are exhausted by 4e errata.

  • You think Wizards is beholden to corporate masters.

  • You think Wizards is decisive.

  • You think Essentials has dumbed down content for newbies.

  • 4e is tiresome to you.


I'm trying to figure out where in this litany you are being a proponent.

Edited: Wait a minute.  Are you the same guy was angry a year ago because naga went from an immortal origin to a natural origin, and the guy was angry three years ago beause Aasimar didn't make it into the PHB1?  Remind me again when you were a proponent?
I also agree, when did it become a contest?

Didn't you know?  Any time a 4e player sits down at a Pathfinder table, Wizards breaks down hir door with a flamethrower and torches all hir 4e books.  (The player is allowed to replace them, but only with Essentials books, and must from then on complain endlessly about how "they should just call it 4.5."  I've seen the contract they make you sign, it's not pretty.)

On the other hand, anytime a Pathfinder player breaks open a 4e book, the Pathfinder gods kill a kitten.  OH GODS, WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE KITTENS!! :-)

Or, y'know, we could all be big boys and girls.  Oh, wait, I forgot, this is the Internet, where the only way to be right is for everyone else to be wrong. <rolls eyes>
loose [loos] vt. to let loose; to release; to unfasten, undo or untie; to shoot or discharge. lose [looz] vt. to come to be without (something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc., so that there is little or no prospect of recovery; to fail inadvertently to retain (something) in such a way that it cannot be immediately recovered; to suffer the deprivation of. LEARN THE DAMN DIFFERENCE. The pen is mightier than the character builder. Copy this to your sig if you like 4e but don't use the CB. "OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E." -RedSiegfried
Pathfinder still has alot of 3.5's issues although it is better balenced than 3.5 and with some houserules it is a fine RPG. The books look good and Paizo seems to be running a tighter ship than WoTC these days. I've run both 4th ed and PF and I like them both but I'm leaning 4th eds way ATM. If 4th ed tanks tomorrow I would at least act like a gentleman towarss the people who really like it or are fanatic about it.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I think it's great that people can play the version of D&D they want to.  If you like 4e, play that.  If you like 3e/Pathfinder, play that.  There are even 'retro clones' out there.  So, if you like Basic D&D, try Labyrinth Lord. If you like 1e try OSRIC. 

All these games are available, ready to play, and all are currently being supported.  It used to be you were out of luck when it came to support for earlier editions.  Not anymore.

I try to overlook edition debate.  It's all D&D in my mind and it's a great time to be a fan.
/\ Art
Maybe it's just me, but I thought the content over the past couple of months has improved- hybrid/multiclass rules for essentials, new themes with powers tacked on, new powers for the battle cleric. 

I have to cancel my account for personal reasons, but the past three months worth of material I think was enough to fill a book so was worth the cost. (though, I'll admit I lost track of what was DDI vs. Free).

Welcome to ZomboniLand - My D&D Blog http://zomboniland.blogspot.com/
I remember being pretty critical of D&D back in the early 80's and you know what? one of the things I didnt like was the fans seemed to care more about popularity than the game being actually good -the fans who trapsed out there monty haul and killer dm - not to mention god wizard - imbalances like they were great and positive things - there were numerous games even then which seemed be blowing past the rather slow to evolve game even ones that were nearly concurrent like RuneQuest seemed better mechanically in so many ways. HERO and GURPS were showing you could make characters that felt like people and the rediculous alignment thing ... sheeesh.

It looks like that popularity contest thing is alive and well in the last version and its cut and paste child.

 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Maybe it's just me, but I thought the content over the past couple of months has improved- hybrid/multiclass rules for essentials, new themes with powers tacked on, new powers for the battle cleric. 

I have to cancel my account for personal reasons, but the past three months worth of material I think was enough to fill a book so was worth the cost. (though, I'll admit I lost track of what was DDI vs. Free).




I havent resubbed but ummm this last month has got me looking at it.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I do so love when a preposterous thread title is taken so literally by so many. Declaring that Pathfinder is winning is not unlike rolling a natural 20 and declaring that "I win D&D!" It got you reading. Stop now if you like, but the purpose was served.

While it feels like Pathfinder (the sexy goth girl) is winning my attention, D&D (the hot girlfriend with whom I have grown restless) still has her claws in me.

I can't lie. It's hard to let go. She's still hot, right? But I haven't been taking her out to dinner lately (read: investing money into buying new books).

Okay, girlfriend metaphors aside, I may have a lot to complain about, as wrecan points out, but that's only because I care so much. Hey look at that, as wrecan also points out! (Nagas are back to being immortal by-the-by; ancient thread win!)

So yes, believe it or not, I can love 4th edition, but still be disenfranchised with its current state, so much that I'm willing to look elsewhere for my mechanics. But as my thread also states (for you selective readers), I will follow a good game master before I follow good game mechanics. That just means my loyalties don't lie with 4th edition anymore. They used to, once, for about a year, but those days are over now. I've been forcibly enlightened by some truly excellent storytellers.

If Wizards of the Coast is okay with me (and anybody else) migrating away, great. No skin off their nose. But yes, because I am still invested in seeing the great 4th edition experiment work, I post.

Thank you.
Angrygodofmilk, I believe the feedback you received was because your original post didn't bother to mention anything redeeming about the hot girlfriend (4e). You only talked smack about her. So we don't really have any reason to believe you have a hot girlfriend, much less actually like her.

 If it had explained even a little bit why you liked the hot girlfriend in the first place, it might have been a "different" thread. It was the kind of thread we have seen just about every week, sometimes twice a week.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
Why can't someone have more than one girlfriend (using that metaphor) - why would it have to be one or the other? 
Welcome to ZomboniLand - My D&D Blog http://zomboniland.blogspot.com/
Why can't someone have more than one girlfriend (using that metaphor) - why would it have to be one or the other? 




You cad, you!

I believe we've got another dose scheduled for Friday at around 2:37 PM Central time.



Followed at 2:38 PM by casualoblivion commenting how "Its not 4e, its just you."

Member of the Axis of Awesome

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Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
I believe we've got another dose scheduled for Friday at around 2:37 PM Central time.



Followed at 2:38 PM by casualoblivion commenting how "Its not 4e, its just you."



If you don't like 4E, that's 4E's fault. If you go to the 4E forums to pick fights with 4E fans, thats a you problem.
...whatever
Pathfinder is a sexy goth girl indeed
Shemeska the Marauder, Freelancer 5 / Yugoloth 10
Pathfinder and 3.5 remind of this girl I used to know. Fantastic sex, but kinda frustrating at times.  4th ed isn't as sexy IMHO but is alot more stable and less insane.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Pathfinder is a sexy goth girl indeed


No the cut and paste clone of 3e is an old chick with caked on make up instead of the surgeries she really needed.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I believe we've got another dose scheduled for Friday at around 2:37 PM Central time.



Followed at 2:38 PM by casualoblivion commenting how "Its not 4e, its just you."



If you don't like 4E, that's 4E's fault. If you go to the 4E forums to pick fights with 4E fans, thats a you problem.



Oh, snap.

Pathfinder is a sexy goth girl indeed

 
No the cut and paste clone of 3e is an old chick with caked on make up instead of the surgeries she really needed.


 
I dont know, the chain mail bikini can do a lot - dont really need surgery.

Member of the Axis of Awesome

Show
Homogenising: Making vanilla in 31 different colours
Pathfinder is a sexy goth girl indeed


No the cut and paste clone of 3e is an old chick with caked on make up instead of the surgeries she really needed.

A cougar in a Chainmail Bikini?

Angrygodofmilk, I believe the feedback you received was because your original post didn't bother to mention anything redeeming about the hot girlfriend (4e).

What to you mean!? I said she was hot. What more does she need? Geeze, if I knew 4th edition was so high maintenance, I never would have dated her!

No, no, I would have. Again, hot.

I'm disappointed. First thing I thought of when I saw the topic title was The Sheen. Undecided

I agree on one point - a casual jump into the General Discussion forum to witness the written wailing and gnashing of teeth would make one assume that not even the fans like this game anymore. Now, please pardon me, I've just read a free article and feel the need to retreat into a corner to tear my hair out, shower myself with dust, and weep uncontrollably.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
I would have thought a "sexy goth girl" RPG would have to be published by White Wolf. I think they own the IP on that particular trope.

"My flying carpet is full of elves."

I think the Girlfriend analogy is wrong.

To break it down... "3.x girl" went thru some concerted changes, to become more stable,balanced, accessible and with less bagage(crappy mechanics) she became "4E girl".  But you liked "3.x Girl" the way she was, so you've increasingly noticed "Path Girl" who is nearly exactly like "4E girl" used to be. You still want "4E Girl", but you can't get over the changes so you want to drop her to get with "Path Girl".   

Here's the thing, If you're afraid of change that's fine.  Don't come here looking for a sympathetic ear.  Make your choice and go, the internet doesn't care about your choice of RPGS.  Play; D&D, Pathfinder, Hackmaster, HERO, Swords and Wizardry, Dungeon Crawl Classics(BETA), GURPS, or any of the other systems that didn't immediately spring to mind.  It doesn't matter as long as you're having fun, If you had a real complaint I'd address it here, but you're just "Pining for the Fjords"
Preferences... Not where they should be. Asking someone if they're Trolling you is in violation of section 3 of the Code of Conduct.
Pathfinder has a +5 Nostalgia bonus to Interestingness. 4e does not have one yet because it's too recent.

Once you switch to Pathfinder you might quickly find out why you switched to 4e, and return to 4e.
Epic Dungeon Master

Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!
Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Sheesh, its a game man. You can play any and all of them. I'd recommend not trying to play 2 at the same time. You know, maybe kiss up with 4e on Fri and PF on Sun or something ;)

And hey, that shelf of 4e books you bought, WotC already got what they were after! Betcha won't be able to resist adding to that collection now and then either.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
My next DnD game is going to be Pathfinder. Good thing I still have the out of print Eberron books.

Sorry Hasbro.
Nothing wrong with leaving 4th for Paizo or saying Paizo is winning. They are a pretty damn good company. I'll never play Pathfinder or own their stuff but Lisa Stevens is one hell of a nice person. I browse their site a lot just to see what other gamers like. I like Wizards but it isn't a company I recognize too much anymore. Heinsoo, David Noonan, Stephen Schubert, Andy Collins, Logan Bonner, Stacy Longstreet, Bill Slavicek, Chris Sims. A ton of lost talent.

Don't take it to heart the flak you are getting here for your thread. They are a sensitive lot about the current state of 4th. Just ignore 'em.
tl;dr

4th edition is dying, go check out Pathfinder

Sounds like an advertisement, despite the OP's claims.

I guess we get our dose of this thing for the week. 4E is dying, Pathfinder is rising #184.



Time and time and time again, tossing and turning, freezing and burning. Time and time and time again, another bad dream and another dead end. Someone, somewhere, wake me up. Someone, somewhere, WAKE ME UP.
Why can't someone have more than one girlfriend (using that metaphor) - why would it have to be one or the other? 


Aha! That explains everything.
I like 4e and Pathfinder, so obviously I swing both ways!   (I'd wondered about that.)

Pathfinder has a +5 Nostalgia bonus to Interestingness. 4e does not have one yet because it's too recent.

Once you switch to Pathfinder you might quickly find out why you switched to 4e, and return to 4e.


Except in my case I didn't switch to 4e. I started out with 4e and then started playing Pathfinder.
 
Why can't someone have more than one girlfriend (using that metaphor) - why would it have to be one or the other? 


Aha! That explains everything.
I like 4e and Pathfinder, so obviously I swing both ways!   (I'd wondered about that.)

Pathfinder has a +5 Nostalgia bonus to Interestingness. 4e does not have one yet because it's too recent.

Once you switch to Pathfinder you might quickly find out why you switched to 4e, and return to 4e.


Except in my case I didn't switch to 4e. I started out with 4e and then started playing Pathfinder.
 



I know a few people who did this- starting with 4th and then switching to Pathfinder. A few even stayed with 3.5 (only because they invested in a boat load of books). I am glad you were able to find a home. Good gaming!
In the interests of derailing a perfectly fine clone thread, anyone played Amethyst or Dresden files and if so, impressions?
I ate eggs this past Tuesday. Discuss.
...whatever
Face it. At first sex with 4e sounded great. She was new, pretty and all. But after a while it was just always the same. You miss your old lover, 3.x.

That girl had a few issue and a load past, but damn, she was a looker and when things were just right, sex was the best ever.



except when you go back for a one-night stand with the old girl you realize something: you're older yourself, more experienced and you recognize that the only reason it felt good was because you were inexperienced and didn't really know better. she now greatly shows her age, she's unwilling to learn from her past mistakes and change or at least try to better herself (you know, the very reasons you left her in the first place) and has far too much baggage she doesn't want to let go of to make it worth your time, effort and emotions.

you decide that the new girl's much better grounded, has learned from her past, is constantly recognizing her personal faults and is honestly trying to better herself and when all is said and done is more fun to be with. you might sometimes come to a disagreement, but it's quickly resolved and you're quite happy with her.
3rd ed SRD, character sheets, errata & free modules 4th ed test drive - modules, starter rules, premade characters and character builder & character sheet, errata Free maps and portraits, dice, printable graph paper, campaign managing website, image manipulation program + token maker & zone markers

"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2
I ate eggs this past Tuesday. Discuss.



So, how'd you have it? Srambled, omellete, sunny side up, over easy? How about hardboiled? What about egg salad? Deviled!?

...

..

.



Damn it man, the suspense is killing me!
-I got ran over my a squirrel the other day. -I'm going to steal my own idea. -My fruits of labor are not fruits... *sniff* they're vegetables. *sobs*
I ate eggs this past Tuesday. Discuss.



Me too deviled eggs - mine were better than yours 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

**** eggs. 

people who like eggs are jerks.

eggs are ruining breakfast.

why can't you just eat toast & cereal like a normal person? or bacon? are you racist against bacon?

freak.

why do you have to bring your ****ing eggs into this forum?

you're ruining the forums!

the forums were a perfectly decent cesspool of hate until you brought your damn eggs into it.

[deity]! 

****! 
3rd ed SRD, character sheets, errata & free modules 4th ed test drive - modules, starter rules, premade characters and character builder & character sheet, errata Free maps and portraits, dice, printable graph paper, campaign managing website, image manipulation program + token maker & zone markers

"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2