[CoN] Rules Question - Mutual Death in Dungeons

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Played my first game last night, and everyone had tons of fun! We played a four player free-for-all, and are looking forward to a team game next time.

We ran into one rules area that I didn't find immediately addressed in the rule book. Since units usually attack at the same time, it is possible for both attacker and defender to be wiped out. When this happens between players, we assumed that it counted as a successful defense, since the attacker had no one left.

But we were less sure what happened if heroes are exploring a dungeon, and both the heroes and the monsters all die at the same time. Does the heroes' player get the treasure anyway, and do you then replace the monsters? Or do you get no treasure and replace the monsters? Or do the monsters just heal to full, despite being killed? (Since it mentions that is what happens if the heroes retreat or are killed.)

Not a common situation, I'm sure - but if anyone saw it addressed in the rules and we simply missed it, we'd be glad to have the answer!
Played my first game last night, and everyone had tons of fun! We played a four player free-for-all, and are looking forward to a team game next time.

We ran into one rules area that I didn't find immediately addressed in the rule book. Since units usually attack at the same time, it is possible for both attacker and defender to be wiped out. When this happens between players, we assumed that it counted as a successful defense, since the attacker had no one left.

But we were less sure what happened if heroes are exploring a dungeon, and both the heroes and the monsters all die at the same time. Does the heroes' player get the treasure anyway, and do you then replace the monsters? Or do you get no treasure and replace the monsters? Or do the monsters just heal to full, despite being killed? (Since it mentions that is what happens if the heroes retreat or are killed.)

Not a common situation, I'm sure - but if anyone saw it addressed in the rules and we simply missed it, we'd be glad to have the answer!



I think the rules do not explicitly cover this.


My own houserule would be to treat it as a successful defense just as in battles, and the "flavor" justification for this is if the heroes died, they had no way of getting the treasure out to the world beyond the dungeon. (And you put two monsters down instead of one--where do you see this rule you mention stating that heroes who are killed get to be healed afterwards?)  

My own houserule would be to treat it as a successful defense just as in battles, and the "flavor" justification for this is if the heroes died, they had no way of getting the treasure out to the world beyond the dungeon. (And you put two monsters down instead of one--where do you see this rule you mention stating that heroes who are killed get to be healed afterwards?)  



Apologies for the poor wording, I didn't mean to imply heroes get healed - the one rule we found stated that if the heroes die or retreat, the monsters get to heal back to full (just like with dragons, for example, which makes sense). But if wasn't clear if this was only surviving monsters, or if even fully killed ones come back to life.
Rule As Written:

Each time you score a hit against such a Dungeon Guardian,
it loses one of its attack dice (the opponent controlling it
chooses which). If you lose the battle or retreat, all the surviving
Dungeon Guardians return to full strength, ready to face the
next Heroes exploring the dungeon.
Rule As Written:

Each time you score a hit against such a Dungeon Guardian,
it loses one of its attack dice (the opponent controlling it
chooses which). If you lose the battle or retreat, all the surviving
Dungeon Guardians return to full strength, ready to face the
next Heroes exploring the dungeon.



"Surviving" here could mean "not having lost all attack dice" or "member of the winning team."

The first may seem more plausible, but the problem with this is, it could leave a dungeon completely empty, which seems implausible for RAI.

The issue is made more difficult by the fact that dungeon guardian dice are often clearly meant to represent individual monsters, or at least, collections of dice are meant to represent multiple monsters. One token says "goblins". Is this one dungeon guardian or four or more? Four or more seems more plausible--the very word "goblins" implies more than one--but then if the "surviving dungeon guardians" are supposed to return to full strength and "surviving" means "did not lose all its attack dice," wouldn't this mean if you killed three of them then next time you only have to fight against one die?

That seems really implausible, and this is an argument that EITHER "dungeon guardian" means "monster or group of monsters" even though it's singular, OR "surviving" means simply "member of the winning side of the battle."
You are really looking way too deeply at the rules here and making it much more complicated than it needs to be.

some more rules:

Determine Battle Results
If all pieces (or Dungeon Guardians) on one or both sides
have been destroyed, or the attacker retreats, the battle ends.
It’s possible for both the attacker and the defender to lose all
their pieces at the same time!
If all the attacking pieces are destroyed, or if the attacker
chooses to retreat, the attacker loses the battle. The defender
retains control of the space, even if all the defending pieces
are destroyed.

That than leads into this rule.

Restocking: Dungeons have a way of attracting creatures.
After you defeat all the dungeon’s inhabitants, others move in
from the depths of the Underdark. Place 2 Dungeon Guardian
tokens on the vacant dungeon entrance. If Heroes manage to
defeat both, they can plunder the dungeon again (drawing
another Treasure card).
also on the creature or number of creatures:

multiple attack dice represents an especially tough creature or
a large group of creatures. For example, the Troll’s token shows
d8 d8, so it rolls 2 8-sided attack dice; the Beholder’s token
shows a d6 and a d20 , so it rolls 1 6-sided attack die and 1
20-sided attack die.
You are really looking way too deeply at the rules here and making it much more complicated than it needs to be.



Lol.


You are really looking way too deeply at the rules here and making it much more complicated than it needs to be.



Lol.






well you are Smile

So anyway, @OP, it appears that the correct answer to your first post is "You don't get the treasure and you replace the tokens with two more drawn from the dungeon deck." 

You are really looking way too deeply at the rules here and making it much more complicated than it needs to be.



Lol.






well you are



No, Darth, I'm not. I'm reading what the rules I've been shown actually say, and I'm drawing the first most basic inferences from them. There's nothing 'too deep" about that. It's what most of us do every time we engage in the activity called reading.

And by doing this I prompted you to take a further look at the rules and as a result, you were able to finally find the relevant one to answer the OP. This is great! We did it! Except you chose to blithely insult me along the way. Poor form. 

In reference to a situation where a dungeon battle results in the loss of all pieces on both sides the pertinent questions seem to be:

1. Does the heroes' player get the treasure anyway?
2. Do you then replace the monsters?
3. Do the monsters just heal to full, despite being killed?

Of these I believe the rules clearly answer #1 and #3:

1. No. Because you did not win (p.15 "If all the attacking pieces are destroyed...the attacker loses the battle") you get neither gold (p.14 At the end of a battle if you won, your realm gets an extra reward in gold") nor Treasure (p.16 "If you win.. your Heroes get to Plunder the dungeon" and back cover/Quick Reference card "PLUNDER DUNGEON only if you win").

3. No. Because the Dungeon Guardians were destroyed (p.14 “if you lose the battle...all the surviving Dungeon Guardians return to full strength").

Question #2 is harder to answer as there is inconclusive or potentially contradictory information in the rulebook.


Page 17 states "After you defeat all of the dungeon's inhabitants...Place 2 Dungeon Guardian tokens on the vacant dungeon entrance" while the back cover/quick Reference card state "RESTOCK DUNGEON only if you win".


The back cover/Quick Reference card wording is clear - you did not win so you would not restock the dungeon.


The reference on p.17 is less clear because it uses the term "defeat". This could be interpreted two ways:
1. You destroyed all of the Dungeon Guardians, therefore you defeated all of the dungeon's inhabitants and should restock the dungeon.
2. You did not win the battle and therefore did not defeat all of the dungeon inhabitants and should not restock the dungeon. This supports the wording on the back cover/Quick Reference.

I think there is more support for the second interpretation and that is what I would rule. However I think there is enough uncertainty to warrant a FAQ response from the designers.

I think there is more support for the second interpretation and that is what I would rule. However I think there is enough uncertainty to warrant a FAQ response from the designers.



Yeah, this interpretation seems closest to what the rules actually say, which is really the heart of the dilemma for my group, since it also doesn't seem likely to be what the actual intent would be.

The way we ran it when it came up was simply to have the player lose his units, gain the treasure anyway (they carried them out with their dying breaths?) and restock the dungeon as per normal.

Our logic was basically that: 1) As you note, the dungeon guardians wouldn't heal up as they were destroyed; 2) In order to restock the dungeon, the battle needed to count as a win; 3) Not restocking didn't really seem a reasonable option; 4) Thus, we decided that the heroes did but still counted as defeating the guardians, thus earning treasure as well as requiring restocking.

Perhaps not the strictest interpretation of the rules, but given that the rules seem somewhat contradictory in this area (with different phrasings implying the same outcome could be both victory and defeat), it seemed like a viable option in the absence of any definite ruling.

There is definitely a lack of clarity that gives you leeway to rule as you prefer.


However, I am comfortable with result of the rules being that you do not get a reward in gold, that you do not plunder the dungeon (and therefore do not get a treasure card) and that you do not restock the dungeon guardians.


I would also rule that the next Hero to enter the dungeon defeats all of the (zero) dungeon guardians, wins the battle, and gets to plunder the dungeon (similar to a piece conquering an empty enemy territory). 


This matches up to what happens if a single dungeon guardian is destroyed - the dungeon is now easier for subsequent Heroes to defeat and although they don’t get gold for defeating the guardian that was already destroyed they get to plunder the dungeon. It also produces an interesting tactical event where players might stretch themselves to reach the undefended dungeon first (of course, because you are more likely to enter dungeons near your own territory it is likely that you will be able to claim the treasure yourself).

Hmm

I'm wouldn't be doing this.  I think it would be better:

you do not get a reward in gold, that you do not plunder the dungeon (and therefore do not get a treasure card) and that the dungeon guardians heal.  New Heroes would have to defeat the same guardian.

Reason:  The Defender won because the attacker died.  That is why in a standard battle, you don't win a territory if you're attacking piece die.  Maybe an option would be to Re-Stock with only one card if the dungeon had one card.
In case future people look at this thread (since it's already been necro-bumped); according to the game designers, in this case the monsters do not respawn, the player gets no loot, and the next player to send one or more heroes into the dungeon gets the loot without a fight.

Source:
www.boardgamegeek.com/article/7099361#70...