New Dark Sun Material?

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Does anyone know (or know where I might find out) if or when any new Dark Sun material, specifically Paragon Tier Adeventures for 4e will be released?
There's a regular Eye on Dark Sun feature on DDI (every month, I believe). These expansions for the campaign setting present additional rules for templars, alternative rewards like arena champion training, new familiars, new monsters, and the like. These articles, in my not so humble opinion, are consistently the best and most well-produced articles on DDI since Dark Sun's release
Fortunately, I have friends that subscribe to DDI to get that stuff.  Just think it's really disappointing that seems to be the only way to get new material for the setting.  Where is the module support?  Where is the setting support?  The original Dark Sun had TONS of support material.  Guess I'll have to go to ebay and find some of that stuff to update/convert.

I want to see setting specific support, like Hammerfast or Threats to Netar Vale, but for Dark Sun (I don't play in FR or Eberron, but would like to see more support for those settings as well).
"We don't stop playing because we grow old...we grow old because we stop playing" George Bernard Shaw "That which does not kill us, only makes us stronger" Friedrich Nietzsche "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 My Gaming Sites World of Shantryl, a high fantasy homebrew world Darksun, the Lands of Athas
I do not recall any developer saying that any of the old world revivals would be fully supported. The community recieved what was expected in the end. Had sales of it been high enough, regardless of innitial stance, WOTC would have supported the continuation of the product lines. As Naxel states, DDI is the only place you will find new (albeit brief) Dark Sun material.
For better or worse, Dark Sun (as well as FR and Eberron) received their planned hardcover supplements: one player guide, one DM guide, one starting adventure, and one monster book for Dark Sun because their player and DM guide were fused. The age of campaign settings getting "TONS" of extra material is over and was planned this way from the get-go for 4e. All that material from additional supplements is just being condensed into DDI articles which removes filler fluff as well as filler mechanics, which is better in my opinion
I wish there was a place that GM's could post their Dark Sun adventures.  Other GM's could then grab those adventures and critique them, use/modify them for their campaign.  I'm really suprised that there isn't something already established in this community (or for any of the other realms either).
GM's do this in the Star Wars Saga RPG forum, post links to their own adventures. I am also surprised how little this occurs in the Dungeons and Dragon Forum. It might require a joining of GM's to consider posting their own material to the community, then Dark Sun material coming from WotC would not be an issue.

I'm a GM that posts most of his material on the forums. If I develop anything I'll share it. 
Anyone have a clue if they(Wotc) plans to continue Marauders/Revenge of/Crown of Dust/Ul-Athra adventure path?


Would be ideal for paragon with lower epic ties.
Thanks for the info! 
Athas.org used to have fan-made material, wayyyyyy back in the day (like 2E, early 3.0 days).  I think it would be great if that could happen again, my group had some great sessions with adventure hooks and material I got from the fan-section.
I'll be putting my Celik project up on Athas.org and the 3e stuff is still up there.

 
Anyone have a clue if they(Wotc) plans to continue Marauders/Revenge of/Crown of Dust/Ul-Athra adventure path?


Would be ideal for paragon with lower epic ties.



Agree my players are about to hit Paragon level and would like to see another of these.
Anyone have a clue if they(Wotc) plans to continue Marauders/Revenge of/Crown of Dust/Ul-Athra adventure path?


Would be ideal for paragon with lower epic ties.


It seems very unlikely. As was written above, it isn't the business model. I suspect that is actually a good call, business-wise.

I do suspect we will see more in Dragon/Dungeon, but less over time. To get more we need to show support and request it often. Write customer support, post on DDI forums, show support when an article is published, join DDI, buy the printed DS material. It all adds up.

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!
Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).

I stick with DS 3.5, it does not conflict with flavor material from 2e nor contradict or retcon the setting. What WOTC is doing to D&D is a shameful ploy at making cheap products and easy rules. All of the 2E stuff used to be available as purchased pdf downloads, not sure if they still are. And the 3.5e stuff is free. The 4e rules for preserving/defiling are just deviant and wrong, and what they did to Elemental Priests is just nauseating. They retconned and killed the setting, just to pump out a couple of cheap books and a few novels. If they had a conscience or a mind for what was......just.....dignified, they would have kept expanding 3.5E, paid the guys at Athas.org and published their work in hardcover. D&D 4e is like Magic:The Gathering in RPG form, restricted, limited and boring. The work done on the 3.5 setting, for free, by Athas.org was magnificent. in DS 4E, they have retconned stuff so badly that if you become familiar with the 4e material before reading the Prism Pentad, nothing makes sense. Even defiling in 4e is like a watered down version of Dragon Magic. The whole point of defiling was that it destroyed the environment, and the whole point of Dragon Magic was that it drew on the life force of living creatures. They threw that, and any real incentive to pursue Advanced Being status, to the wind. The new rules are like a D&D Lite. If a GM isn't willing to do the work to make a campaign with a REAL set of viable rules, there is no point in playing. I bought the 4e material just to show support for the DS concept, but they have sat on the shelf since the first read gathering dust. I have every 3.5E product made on the same bookcase, and they are dust-free and made regular use of, including a binder with all of the Athas.org stuff. Pathfinder too. WOTC made a fool's error in handing off the rights to a superior game system to Paizo, just so they could make anyone who wishes to remain current buy a bunch of new books. If they get their heads on straight, when 5e eventually comes out, it will be a lot more like 3.5e , none of this at will/encounter/daily power nonsense. The whole system has the feeling of never progressing beyond the power of a 5th level chartacter in 3.5. Just one man's opinion, but retconning a beloved setting that was kept alive by fans for about 14 years just to spit in our faces by changing everything is absurd and just plain wrong. And I can't wait to see what kind of BS D&D PC game they try to make based on these rules is like. The one they already came out with doesn't even count as a worthy RPG,IMO. Their current rules system will never work smoothly in an epic RPG like Neverwinter Nights 1 or 2. They shot themselves in the foot. And from what I hear, it won't even be a play on your own RPG, it will be another stupid MMORPG, where you are forced to play online with other people in YOUR game. Just to charge a monthly fee. Way to go, WOTC. There used to be a balance of profit and customer satisfaction in your way of business, but that is now sitting at the bottom of the Abyss. Until WOTC starts doing things right again, they will not get one more coin from me, whereas I spent literally thousands of dollars on their stuff when they were doing it right. Every single rulebook, NWN 1 and 2, and every expansion. Glad I bought the products while they were still worth the paper they are printed on and the HD space they take up. 
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you state these things you wrote as if they were fact. They aren't.

There are thousands of people playing Ashes of Athas alone. There are many gamers that think the Dark Sun 4E books are a really good treatment of the setting.

The idea that WotC vomited up setting books for cash... it is beyond opinion and, respectfully, completely in error. Until you have met the designers and experienced their love for Dark Sun, you just have no basis for your (incorrect) statement. WotC guys love the game of D&D, pour their souls into it, and the guys involved in Dark Sun both love the game and play the 4E version. (Rob Schwalb is in a 4E Dark Sun home campaign run by one of our Chapter Three Ashes of Athas authors, several DS designers recently playtested a Chapter Three adventure, and one of our admins is a designer of the setting book). These guys love the setting and worked ridiculously hard to make it as good as they could make it. They are very proud of their work and should be. They will also tell you that fan support, including these forums and Athas.org, were instrumental to the 4E version getting approval for launch. It is also fair to say that the setting has been well received.

As for Athas.org, I think you should take a look at what those guys actually say. You can find some of them here... discussing the 4E version of the setting. Our playtesters for Ashes of Athas include one of the top Athas.org members...

The simple truth is that any setting has limited support these days. Deep setting support is a bad financial idea. The more you publish, the less of a fan base it has. It starts with saying that only setting fans want it, then only DMs, then only DMs that want a limited subject... A keystone of 4E was to go light on setting-specific content and to instead go wide with books that are of use to many settings. The elemental powers book that was announced at Gen Con is a good example. It will have far wider appeal than if it were Elemental Powers of Athas, but will likely have a lot of content we DS fans can use.

Historically, the AD&D Dark Sun line was likely amongst the least profitable. Some of those flip books lost money on every unit sold (good 'ol TSR!).

If you want content, the 3.5 and 2E material has tons of content in terms of history, places, NPCs, story, etc. It is easy to use the DS 4E material or DDI to assign stats when you need them. 4E is very reskinnable, making it very easy to live happily with 4E and other editions.

Lastly, please drop the edition hate. We are all gamers. We all love some games more than others and have our personal preferences. There is no reason to denigrate an edition just for the sake of doing so. Post something constructive. Check out Kobold Quarterly for an example of a company that makes both 3E and 4E content useful to a varied audience so as to add value to all gamers.

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!
Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).

It is not just about the flavor content, my main grief is with the limitations of the system itself. The days of having a 3.5E Sorcerer/Psion/Mind Mage/Cerebremancer/Dragon that can cast 2 spells per round, has like 500 PP, and close to 80 spells in reserve are the things I feel are amiss. Sheer firepower and versatility. Metamagic and metapsionic feats, and the ability to pay for either with the other's power source (Mind mage and original Athas.org Avangion and Dragon rules)
I like being realistic when it comes to things I love that the majority of gamers don't like. I happen to really like the realism of the second DS boxed sets psionic rules. There aren't that many gamers that feel that way. The 3.5 psionic books, from what I heard back then, did not sell well and were not well regarded. I suspect they are far less popular than the AD&D ones.

To be honest, anything casting 2 spells a round was broken in 3E. The old Haste, the familiar trick... these things were very bad for the balance and most people's enjoyment of the third edition game, especially at high levels.

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!
Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you state these things you wrote as if they were fact. They aren't.

There are thousands of people playing Ashes of Athas alone. There are many gamers that think the Dark Sun 4E books are a really good treatment of the setting.



Seconded, the only reason I got into DnD was because of Dark Sun. I hate most Fantasy settings, too much green trees and happy little elves and hobbits. And recently I didn't know how simple it was to modify creatures till I wanted to make a new type of drake. Now I'm creating a bunch of psionic raiders for my players to fight.

Looking back at all the information on DS I was suprised WotC even brought it back. 

Ant Farm
WotC seems to have decided that setting material just doesn't sell well enough to give it book support beyond initial release.  I suspect that is a reaction to the setting bloat of previous editions.  An overreaction in my opinion.  I would certainly buy a new Dark Sun adventure module.  Or TOKENS, for pity's sake!  

It would be nice if at the very least they compiled and edited all the Dark Sun material in Dragon and Dungeon and released them in book format. 
It would be nice if at the very least they compiled and edited all the Dark Sun material in Dragon and Dungeon and released them in book format. 



Wizards acknowledged in several seminars (and previously in the forums and on Twitter) that this is a big shortcoming of DDI. Succinctly, DDI's search and collation capabilities are terrible. They want to make changes, but have stated it will take time to do so. The good news is that they agree and have it on their long range plans.

Some fans have done a good job of providing lists of what is available. This incredible list, Dark Sun: A History of Content covers everything (including old Polyhedron and fan materials) written for Dark Sun.

This DDI Wiki covers the DDI content and is maintained by the community.

My personal technique is to download everything into one folder with a clear title. I don't print things out because I prefer the digital format, but it wouldn't be hard to print it with a user-made table of contents and place it in a 3-ring binder. I don't see the business validation for Wizards publishing this as a printed product to be honest. I wish I did!

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!
Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).

For the life of me I can't figure out why they don't publish some setting material. I understand that they don't want to create a glut of products that don't sell. At the same time, if you don't publish anything, you can't make any money off of that franchise. Heck I would be happy with one or two offerings a year. I think adventures may not be the way to go. I would rather see something along the lines of source books containing some more detailed information of various locals, a few critters, maybe a few themes and other character bits.

I really wish the economy of RPGs were good. It isn't. Start with most lines of products in previous editions losing money once they started branching into smaller "part of a setting" books.

Continue with the typical RPG model where most players own 1-2 books and the DM owns a lot in the setting they like.

Add in that publishing costs have greatly increased since that time.

Factor in that you already have a lot of previous edition setting material.

You and I might buy Elves of Athas 4E, but there just aren't that many people that would. The current model, where Neverwinter Campaign Setting has DM content (monsters, treasure, etc.), player content (themes, feats, class), and setting content... and the content is largely applicable to any other campaign setting. Now you have a recipe for success. Elves of Athas 4E will not see approval and really should not.

Adventures tend to not make enough money. They are again better as a portion of another sourcebook or as a very specific offering tied to a famous setting (such as Tomb of Horrors... and I would be curious whether that one was even profitable... how many of your gaming group own it? Very few in mine, even amongst the DMs).

I would absolutely love to be wrong on any of this.

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!
Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).

I'd just like to see more novels set in Dark Sun. If I can't get a new sourcebook on the history of the Sorcerer Kings and Raajat I might as well find out the information through the books done by authors and use the creatures and locations they create as spring boards for my game.

The Troy Denning books are being released in Kindle Format in September. 
Ant Farm
I really wish the economy of RPGs were good. It isn't. Start with most lines of products in previous editions losing money once they started branching into smaller "part of a setting" books.

Continue with the typical RPG model where most players own 1-2 books and the DM owns a lot in the setting they like.

Add in that publishing costs have greatly increased since that time.

Factor in that you already have a lot of previous edition setting material.

You and I might buy Elves of Athas 4E, but there just aren't that many people that would. The current model, where Neverwinter Campaign Setting has DM content (monsters, treasure, etc.), player content (themes, feats, class), and setting content... and the content is largely applicable to any other campaign setting. Now you have a recipe for success. Elves of Athas 4E will not see approval and really should not.

Adventures tend to not make enough money. They are again better as a portion of another sourcebook or as a very specific offering tied to a famous setting (such as Tomb of Horrors... and I would be curious whether that one was even profitable... how many of your gaming group own it? Very few in mine, even amongst the DMs).

I would absolutely love to be wrong on any of this.



I agree it's a tough market, no doubt about it, but you also can't make money unless you produce a product. Adding in content for players and DM's alike is a good idea. A product specifically about the Elves of Athas isn't going to work because it is to narrowly focused, though a nice strawman. A book with a few pages of fluff on elves, as well as all the other races and other more generalized setting information, some more options etc, might. A condensed version of earlier stuff with some new material thrown in.

As I see it, part of the problem is scale, the other is packaging. I'm not wanting them to pump out 200+ page hardbacks every few months. I think a switch to smaller (40-50 pages), soft-cover supplements would be a profitable move. Smaller print runs, lower overhead. Judging by the ENnies from Gen Con I think Paizo has a much better business model (though I don't have any actual sales figures to back it up) and they produce quite a bit more setting related type material than WotC.

The Tomb of Horrors adventure book is, I think anyway, very good (and three people in my two groups own it). However, by the time it came out WotC adventures had already established a reputation as being never ending dungeon crawl grinds, so I think a lot of people stopped buying them. They seemed to have switched to more of the smaller adventure location material, which I think has a lot more potential. Personally I would also like to see more smaller scale adventures. Ones that take characters from one level to the next (the encounters modules being good examples), instead of the ubur-epic, hyper focused super adventures. People are more likely to buy something at $10.00, than $40.00, even if you get less for your money. It's a matter of perception of expense, and impulse buying. The dungeon tile sets are a good example, I'm more likely to buy those than any of the books, because 10 bones doesn't hurt my wallet as much as 40. The "Beneath the Dust" adventure, is a good example, I would've paid $10.00 for this adventure in print, because it is a quality product.

Anyway, WotC supposedly announced that they are not going to add any more classes to 4e. My question is what are they going to produce to keep the product alive? more rules? I don't need more rules, I need more material from which to draw on to keep my campaign fresh and exciting. I don't think more rules are going to do that. Add to that, a DDI subscription gets me access to all the rules bits that I need, or get put out. So what does that leave us with?

I remain somewhat optimistic that things might change.
It feels like the Neverwinter campaign is going to be a big hit.  I think they did it right, packaging, content, advertising etc.  It gives me hope that they can do something similar for Dark Sun.

In a couple of the seminars from GenCon it sounds like they want to push a lot of the smaller items, such as the 32 page adventures to DDI.  I know what you're saying about the Beneath the Dust adventure, but it seems like those are never going to see print, they're for online.  

As for what WotC is going to do, I get a feel that they're going to start putting out a lot of variant and optional rules.  I think that is a good idea I don't need more classes or races (I"M the DM), I need more tools in the toolbox.   
It gives me hope that they can do something similar for Dark Sun.
...  I think that is a good idea I don't need more classes or races (I"M the DM), I need more tools in the toolbox.   


I think the only way 4e Dark Sun will be advertised would be if an outside guy made something and distributed it for free.

Last thing I bought was monster vault. I have 2 PHBs, 1 DMG, Dark Sun Complete, and Monster Vault. Dont need anything else. 
Ant Farm
Keep in mind that you can't distribut things legally if it has setting info in it.

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!
Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).

Keep in mind that you can't distribut things legally if it has setting info in it.


Wait?  Even if it's free?  DontEatRawHagis was talking about free adventures.
That is my understanding. It depends on the nature of the undertaking whether Wizards will object, but using their IP (anything outside the SRD, which is any setting material) can be an issue.

I don't think anyone will object to your blog having some cool encounters or coming up with a cool adventure, but a series of major adventures could be something that would be an issue.

Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!
Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).