What happened to my 4th Edition?

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Hello all.

My queston is simple. 

What happened to D and D?  Everything seems to be going Essentials. 

Am I wrong here?  If I am wrong, then where is the Assassin (non-Essentialized, you know, the guy whose powers are MOSTLY Shadow based, as opposed to being Martial based while claiming to be a Shadow power source) class completion that was talked about?

What about all the other non-Essential clases that are incomplete?

If game of more determination (non-Essential) has gone by way of the Dodo can someone enlighten me?

Hello there.

Essentials and non-essentials are all 4e D&D.

The classes and feats presented in the Essentials line are new options to supplement the old options, and nothing more.

The book presentation format (with the level charts for each class included and everything broken down level by level and choice by choice) is a change to the appearance of the material, and has no purpose other than to try and make the book more helpful to players... it just happened to be first used in the Essentials line, and that has caused confusion.

D&D is still D&D.

As far as your questions about incomplete classes... all the classes are complete, though some could do to have more  power options released for them to provide more options. They might eventually get some Dragon articles.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

This is what happened:

- New content was released.

- The old content is still there (and is still receiving support).

- A few people wanted something to doom-and-gloom about and saw Essentials as an easy target.

Note that "Essentials" was actually just a line of 10 products that was all released a while ago. According to WotC the new stuff that came out after the Essentials line does not belong to the Essentials line and just uses what WotC is calling "the new design moving forward."

Also note that nothing is preventing you from excluding whatever content you do not care for from your game.

Edit: What Aaron said as well. 
"Censorship is telling a man he can’t have a steak just because a baby can’t chew it.” ~Mark Twain
You people are worst than 3.5 gronards, you know that? Sheesh.
Hello all.

My queston is simple. 

What happened to D and D?  Everything seems to be going Essentials. 

Am I wrong here?  If I am wrong, then where is the Assassin (non-Essentialized, you know, the guy whose powers are MOSTLY Shadow based, as opposed to being Martial based while claiming to be a Shadow power source) class completion that was talked about?

What about all the other non-Essential clases that are incomplete?

If game of more determination (non-Essential) has gone by way of the Dodo can someone enlighten me?




I, too, have not liked the Essentials Assassin. When we delve we separate Essentials classes from Core classes. especially the Essentials feats- they are overpowered.

You are not alone in your feelings towards 4th right now. The design philosophy of the last year has been very controversial, to say the least.
You people are worst than 3.5 gronards, you know that? Sheesh.

I have not heard of anyone going to release a spin off game that is basically pre-essentials 4E with some tweaks, so I disagree with this comment. 

There are no legal grounds to do so.
Jackonomicon™ It's not always safe for work, but it's great for play. It's my blog, yo.
The classes and feats presented in the Essentials line are new options to supplement the old options, and nothing more.



That's not entirely right, Essentials is the direction of the game going forward, not options.  Sure, you can still play the game just fine (if you ignore the errata) as if Essentials never happened and use the new designs like options if you wish.  But WotC has made it pretty clear that moving forward new products will be developed like Essentials.  So someone not interested in buying Essentials products wouldn't have too many options.  Except that, thankfully, older material still sees some support in Dragon! :p
The classes and feats presented in the Essentials line are new options to supplement the old options, and nothing more.



That's not entirely right, Essentials is the direction of the game going forward, not options.  Sure, you can still play the game just fine (if you ignore the errata) as if Essentials never happened and use the new designs like options if you wish.  But WotC has made it pretty clear that moving forward new products will be developed like Essentials.  So someone not interested in buying Essentials products wouldn't have too many options.  Except that, thankfully, older material still sees some support in Dragon! :p


All parts of the game, errata included, are options.

That is how table-top role-playing games work.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

Hello there.

Essentials and non-essentials are all 4e D&D.

The classes and feats presented in the Essentials line are new options to supplement the old options, and nothing more.


Blah blah blah spare us the old routine.

Yeah its the same game. So what? Doesn't mean we have to LIKE Essential as equally as Classic. I don't and the OP obviously doesn't, saying its all the same game won't make me like it better.
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What an entertaining and original thread.  In other news.

2nd Edition for ever. Freeeeedom

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

*scratches butt and reaches for shadowrun 4a book*
I despise Essentials for returning things to what I consider the Dark Age of D&D, 3.5
I looked over the downloadable pregenerated characters for dark legacy of Evard, am I to understand that now all Martial classes have no attack powers? Seriously their dwarf fighter only has basic attacks supplemented by a power attack and some stupid looking stances. One of the reasons I came to 4th edition was bacause I hated that other classes were simply more powerful, like mages and priests, and now I see that 3.5 has put on the cloak known as essentials and snuck in to ruin this edition
Hello there.

Essentials and non-essentials are all 4e D&D.

The classes and feats presented in the Essentials line are new options to supplement the old options, and nothing more.


Blah blah blah spare us the old routine.

Yeah its the same game. So what? Doesn't mean we have to LIKE Essential as equally as Classic. I don't and the OP obviously doesn't, saying its all the same game won't make me like it better.



The OP didn't bring liking it into the conversation, and neither did I.

He asked facts, I answered facts - there is no need to post just to be incendiary towards those that don't share your opinion.

In other news, saying it's not the same game won't make me like it any less.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

I despise Essentials for returning things to what I consider the Dark Age of D&D, 3.5
I looked over the downloadable pregenerated characters for dark legacy of Evard, am I to understand that now all Martial classes have no attack powers? Seriously their dwarf fighter only has basic attacks supplemented by a power attack and some stupid looking stances. One of the reasons I came to 4th edition was bacause I hated that other classes were simply more powerful, like mages and priests, and now I see that 3.5 has put on the cloak known as essentials and snuck in to ruin this edition



Ok, soooooooooooooooooo.......don't play Essentials?

I mean, you don't have to use Essentials classes, unless you're playing in one of the organized play things that requires that you play with their pregen characters. The game I'm running has all pre-Essentials characters (well, except for the DMPCs I have to fill a role when a player is absent, but that's because Essentials classes are easy to run). I think that most organized play through the RPGA is "bring-your-own-character" too, with the exception being Encounters. I think, that is; I haven't done Encounters. Anybody willing to chime in on that?

But again, if you don't like Essentials, don't use it. Its just that simple.

edit: Thinking about it some more, if you hate playing a particular class, do you still play it? No? Same thing. 

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Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

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"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

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57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.
I despise Essentials for returning things to what I consider the Dark Age of D&D, 3.5
I looked over the downloadable pregenerated characters for dark legacy of Evard, am I to understand that now all Martial classes have no attack powers? Seriously their dwarf fighter only has basic attacks supplemented by a power attack and some stupid looking stances. One of the reasons I came to 4th edition was bacause I hated that other classes were simply more powerful, like mages and priests, and now I see that 3.5 has put on the cloak known as essentials and snuck in to ruin this edition



They're limited in options, but not less powerful. The Knight and Slayer are top performers at their roles, and they can pick up PHB1 Fighter encounter powers with Martial Cross Training. 

I'm not a fan of the martial classes in essentials at all, really. However, I could never even consider calling them less powerful. 
Personally I love the MBA/Stance Combinations.  Much simpler classes and at least for me fun to play in epic. 

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

Personally I love the MBA/Stance Combinations.  Much simpler classes and at least for me fun to play in epic. 


I enjoy them as well... I actually prefer them because I don't like keeping track of resources (snaps me out of character just a bit more than I like), and will completely skip doing so if I can get away with it.

In my ideal RPG character powers only exist in at-will, encounter, and single-use expendable types.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

Personally I love the MBA/Stance Combinations.  Much simpler classes and at least for me fun to play in epic. 


I enjoy them as well... I actually prefer them because I don't like keeping track of resources (snaps me out of character just a bit more than I like), and will completely skip doing so if I can get away with it.

In my ideal RPG character powers only exist in at-will, encounter, and single-use expendable types.



I just don't like that they turned them into one trick ponies that are built around charging.
To the OP:

Your 4E is right where you left it, behind the wall of crap you have put up between you and it.
...whatever
Oh, look!  It's this thread!  Again!

-O
So we're supposed to deal with it when essentials gets all the new resources, and D&D encounters only accepts Essentials characters. I'd rather not.
If player options you can choose not to use are ruining your game experience that's a you problem, not a system problem. If future releases that don't yet exist are ruining for you the game in the present and everything released to this point which continue to exist, that is a you problem, not a system problem.

I can understand being upset if you aren't likely to like new material, but that concern doesn't exist independent of what already exists of the game in question. They could make all future material for 4E in the spirit of FATAL and I wouldn't quit for Pathfinder because of the excellence of what has been produced to this point, given that new material is merely additions that can be ignored, which is the case with both current and hypothetical future Essentials. Broken 3E crap Pathfinder will never compete with what already exists for 4E in my eyes.
...whatever
So we're supposed to deal with it when essentials gets all the new resources, and D&D encounters only accepts Essentials characters. I'd rather not.



Same answer.  You don't like Encounters, don't play Encounters.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
They draw a line in the game developpement.

Pre and Post Essentials.

They will try to make the Class balance, but inside the Essentials line.
Other class are still available, but support will slow down.
Dont expect to see new Warlock power based on Con, or Cleric power based on STR.
This is over.

New Class definition is more narrow.
You take the WarPriest of the Sun domain and everything turn around the sun.
Old class allow to pick a bit of everything everywhere, but WOTC concluded that this model dont suited for the future developpement.

With the Online character builder they can observe what is popular: Classs, Power, Feat and so.
If nobody buy or use Essentials product or the new one they will step back.
But for now it seem that enough people go in the Essentials way.

Oh, look!  It's this thread!  Again!

-O



My thoughts exactly, play with what you have fun with. Simple as that.....my group and I play original 4e and we are having a blast. No need for essentials, but if others enjoy thats fine.
4E had a mountain of material released for it before Essentials. Future releases being in a different direction don't make that mountain any smaller.

If one is being reasonable, if you hate the new stuff to the point where it might as well not exist, objectively the decision is playing 4e with it's mountain of already released content(more support than any other system will ever have), or quitting 4E. Objectively, you being pissed off has nothing to do with it, and you're only short changing yourself if you're being that emotional over it.

At the very worst, you have the snapshot of 4E right before the release of Heroes of the Fallen Lands. I'll take that snapshot over any other RPG.
...whatever
My thoughts exactly, play with what you have fun with. Simple as that.....my group and I play original 4e and we are having a blast. No need for essentials, but if others enjoy thats fine.

What an intriguing, logical, and level-headed viewpoint.  It's almost as if you have taken intelligence, tolerance, and understanding, and woven it together to find common ground, all without needing to insult anyone.

Revolutionary! 
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept. Default module =/= Core mechanic.
I guess Essentials has shown me what an awesome game 4e is.  I'm not a fan of the new stuff, but I have a renewed appreciation for the design of pre-E material and will continue to use it.  I'm not going to rule out Essentials, but I'm not really planning on buying future stuff if it is all part of the "new design going forward," which contains many elements I'm not interested in.  That's a bit of a bummer.

It might help some folks to realize that most "Essentials-haters" are just people who very much loved the original design of 4e, and lament that there's not likely to be much more new material that furthers that design.  Much of the strong emotions of both sides are rooted in a love of D&D, which is something we all share.  We don't have to agree about the effect of the change in design, but both sides should respect that acceptance and rejection are both valid reactions in this situation.
So we're supposed to deal with it when essentials gets all the new resources, and D&D encounters only accepts Essentials characters. I'd rather not.



So encounters does not accept other official 4th ed?  How is that a good idea?
Hi. I had to remove some content from this thread because it violates the Code of Conduct

Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
People get so upset and make it seem like Essentials is ruining what already exists. That is idiocy, and idiocy gets a response.
...whatever
My thoughts exactly, play with what you have fun with. Simple as that.....my group and I play original 4e and we are having a blast. No need for essentials, but if others enjoy thats fine.

What an intriguing, logical, and level-headed viewpoint.  It's almost as if you have taken intelligence, tolerance, and understanding, and woven it together to find common ground, all without needing to insult anyone.

Revolutionary! 



Heh Pretty much. To be honest, though I am sick of all these Essential threads. You see one and you seen them all. They are the same thing over and over again, some one either defending it, or deriding it, and people fighting each other. The point of these games are not to fight whatever version they play to validate their sad ego. No these games are about having fun, but often times, in my local game shop, and here people forget that. Who really cares? I am not big on essentials, but I am not going to waste my breath on what is better and what is not. I donot care if you play pathfinder, 4e, essentials, 2nd edition, Shadowrun, Savage Worlds, Dragon Age, Rifts, or whatever.....as long as your having fun, you play with people you enjoy with thats what matters. Right now we are playing 4e, and we are having fun. thats what matters, the importance is whether you are having fun or not. People forget this simple concept...
My participation in these threads isn't so much arguing over opinions, which everyone is entitled to, but people being silly. Things might not go how you'd like, but that is no reason to be silly or ignorant about it.
...whatever
My participation in these threads isn't so much arguing over opinions, which everyone is entitled to, but people being silly. Things might not go how you'd like, but that is no reason to be silly or ignorant about it.



thats the problem I have. Like I said, the peopl you describe by being silly and ignorant are the one that forgot what these games are intended to do....to have fun.
Oh, look!  It's this thread!  Again!

-O




well, it's been at least a week since the last one. 


Cry Havoc!  And let slip the hogs of war!

There is more bile, hatred, ignorance and insanity in Essentials hate threads than in 4E vs 3E/Pathfinder threads these days. The Edition War that broke out in the game sales rankings thread was eerily civilized and well behaved.
...whatever
There are just too many people coming here trying to incite division.  Considering that D&D is a social game, I find little to tolerate in that behavior.  I would think that a community of intelligent people filled with imagination can work together to find solutions rather than creating problems.  The in-fighting and the (not so hidden) sniping at people and groups with differing opinions really needs to stop.
Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept. Default module =/= Core mechanic.
I think the appropriate word is hysteria. This thread, and others like it, are Essentials Hysteria threads.
...whatever
An unmanageble fear of Essentials? Seems fitting. All the hatred our side sees towards essentials is stemming from fear, after all.
Fear that this is how things are going to be done from now on.
Fear for the very future of the game we love.
Fear it will be changed to the hideous, dumbed down format and there will be nothing to look forward to.
Fear of having to watch a new publish after publish of what we consider paper waste roll out of the press, while the things we used to love slowly sink into the twilight.
Fear that the Wizards will do all this and shun away form us, and we'll never be able to bask in their radiance again, for it is now cold, dark and dead to us.

We looked at essentials, we were stupefied. We got told it's only temporary, and after they were done we'd get back to the things we liked. We sighed in relief. Now we get told this is how things are going to be from now on. Fear? Of course we fear.

... our side ...

Everyone is on the same side here, Kivip.  We are all fans of the D&D game.

Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept. Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new. Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept. Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept. Default module =/= Core mechanic.