06/10/2011 Feature: "June 2011 Update Bulletin"

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This thread is for discussion of this Feature Article, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Just realized I forgot about this earlier - Kinshala still needs to be added to the list of planar types.
Just realized I forgot about this earlier - Kinshala still needs to be added to the list of planar types.



More importantly, Tember City (and the other missing promo planes/schemes) need to be added to Gatherer.

This update was rather small.  It was good to see certain issues addressed, but it seems we'll have to wait a month for the rest of them (e.g. the Caged Sun issue).
Adding the Hexproof wording is a small functional change to Asceticism, Ertai, Leonin Abunas, and Privileged Position.

It changes the interaction of each of these cards with Muraganda Petroglyphs and, except for Leonin Abunas, with Humility (along with any other "lose all ability" effects I may be forgetting).

Just pointing that out, though I'd assume that must have been deliberate.

Thanks for the update!

adeyke: Or longer!

And yes, the small functional change with Muraganda Petroglyphs, et al was acceptable. The same thing happened when shroud was introduced.

adeyke: Or longer!

And yes, the small functional change with Muraganda Petroglyphs, et al was acceptable. The same thing happened when shroud was introduced.


I assumed as much.  No worries then!
Maybe Hand of Justice should be an Avatar Arbiter?
adeyke: Or longer!



This is true.  I didn't mean to presume.

Maybe Hand of Justice should be an Avatar Arbiter?



Arbiter isn't a creature type, and it's not worth making it one.
This thread is for discussion of this Feature Article, which goes live Friday morning on magicthegathering.com.

maybe Hand of Honor should be an advisor, like Ravnica's Grand Arbiter and various other judges.

Though, I doubt advisor tribal is gonna be in vogue anytime soon.
Though, I doubt advisor tribal is gonna be in vogue anytime soon.

I guarantee you someone, somewhere, has already built it.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

702.11.
Look everyone, it's hexproof! Subsequent rules (and many cross-references throughout the Comprehensive Rulebook) were renumbered.


I really hate this. I maintain the German translation of the CPR, and every CPR update means work for me. It is already annoying that these updates seem to come at intervals getting shorter all the time. But playing games with the numbers of 78 rules plus their subrules feels like fooling people like me. And it's for no sake at all, since the new keyword ability might as well be explained in a rule with the number 702.90.

In addition, the questions & answers part of my Magic web site claims to be accurate even with respect to older questions and every rules change since then. And that is saying a lot: By now, it contains more than 11,500 questions and answers collected through seven years. Every change in the CPR or Oracle reference leads to an investigation whether this influences any existing answer to older questions and then to add a note or give a new answer (example). I understand that some changes are more or less unavoidable (and changing them later again and again, see e. g. the layer system), but renumbering rules is so unnecessary and so much work for effectively nothing (here's an example of what the 2009 update led to).

Please try to keep existing rules with their existing numbers whenever possible. Add new rules to the end of the respective part or chapter whenever possible. This helps people all over the world who support the game and help other people by explaining the rules to them.

Kind regards,

Mario Hassler

P.S.: With the next CPR update, please add information to the "Limited Range of Influence Option" that clarifies whether triggered abilities like "At the beginning of each opponent's end step, if you didn't lose life this turn, you may put a quest counter on Luminarch Ascension" or "At the beginning of each end step, if it's not your turn, take an extra turn after this one" trigger at the given moment during the turn of a player sitting "far away". The current rules don't cover this sort of interaction between a "remote" turn and an ability that doesn't influence the "remote" player, permanents etc. Thank you.

Casual Magic players: Looking for tons of good stuff in German language? Visit my homepage: "Magic für Freizeitspieler"!

I really hate this. I maintain the German translation of the CPR, and every CPR update means work for me. It is already annoying that these updates seem to come at intervals getting shorter all the time. But playing games with the numbers of 78 rules plus their subrules feels like fooling people like me. And it's for no sake at all, since the new keyword ability might as well be explained in a rule with the number 702.90.

I feel your pain, since now I'll have to redo the CompRules quotes for every single keyword in my FAQ. There is a reason for it, though: this way the Keyword Abilities section has the evergreen keywords first, and then the non-evergreen. That way, all the evergreen keywords are grouped together and people don't have to go dashing all about to find the keywords that appear in every set. Non-evergreen keywords just get added to the list at the bottom.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

[...] There is a reason for it, though: this way the Keyword Abilities section has the evergreen keywords first, and then the non-evergreen. That way, all the evergreen keywords are grouped together and people don't have to go dashing all about to find the keywords that appear in every set. Non-evergreen keywords just get added to the list at the bottom.

Thank you for the reply. There are only few people who read the CPR from top to bottom. WotC themselves advise people not to do so. So rather than looking for a keyword ability by scrolling from 702.1 to 702.2, 702.3, 702.4 and so on, people would look up the word in the glossary* and then be directed to the appropriate rule. That's why I don't agree that "evergreen" keywords (which is a vague term anyway) should by all means be kept together.

Mario Hassler

* Search engines seem to deprive especially younger persons of the ability to know the alphabet or, at least, of the understanding for the necessity to know the alphabet. So a sort order of any kind is of lesser importance as long as there is a possibility to search for a keyword.

Casual Magic players: Looking for tons of good stuff in German language? Visit my homepage: "Magic für Freizeitspieler"!

I really hate this. I maintain the German translation of the CPR, and every CPR update means work for me. It is already annoying that these updates seem to come at intervals getting shorter all the time. But playing games with the numbers of 78 rules plus their subrules feels like fooling people like me. And it's for no sake at all, since the new keyword ability might as well be explained in a rule with the number 702.90.

I feel your pain, since now I'll have to redo the CompRules quotes for every single keyword in my FAQ. There is a reason for it, though: this way the Keyword Abilities section has the evergreen keywords first, and then the non-evergreen. That way, all the evergreen keywords are grouped together and people don't have to go dashing all about to find the keywords that appear in every set. Non-evergreen keywords just get added to the list at the bottom.

Would a smarter method be to just bump the top non-evergreen keyword down to the bottom of the list?  That way you'd only have to fix the numbering for that one ability.
Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...
The evergreens are sorted in alphabetical order, then the non-evergreens in chronological order of their introduction. The ability to browse down to a random spot mid-702s and then know whether I should scroll up or down to find the correct subrule number is useful at least to me, and if you keep displacing things when new evergreen abilities show up, the method by which to do that breaks.
Veilstone Amulet and Vines of Vastwood have a similar problem. In some cases, a different player ends up being able to target the affected creature(s) than would be able to if those cards gave the creatures hexproof.

The explanation given does not apply to Veilstone Amulet, because it only affects creatures you control like Asceticism. Was there another reason why Veilstone Amulet was not updated?
I think the problem with Veilstone Amulet is this:

Right now, it's a rules-changing effect.  When the ability resolves, it makes it so that, for the rest of the turn, creatures you control can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.  This will always affect the creatures you control at a given point and nothing else.  If a new member is added to this set, that will also be affected.  And if something leaves the set, it'll stop being affected.

If it was given hexproof errata, it would instead be a characteristic-changing effect.  The set of affected objects would be locked in as the ability resolves.  Only those things that are creatures you control at that time would gain hexproof.  If something later becomes a creature you control, it won't get hexproof.  And if something stops being a creature you control, it won't lose hexproof.

So, suppose that after the ability resolved, you used Bazaar Trader to give away one of your creatures.  As it stands now, it would no longer be affected and could be targeted by anyone.  If Veilstone Amulet was given hexproof errata, then in the same situation, the creature would still have hexproof, and this would mean that you couldn't target it anymore but your opponent could.
I really hate this. I maintain the German translation of the CPR, and every CPR update means work for me. It is already annoying that these updates seem to come at intervals getting shorter all the time. But playing games with the numbers of 78 rules plus their subrules feels like fooling people like me. And it's for no sake at all, since the new keyword ability might as well be explained in a rule with the number 702.90.

I feel your pain, since now I'll have to redo the CompRules quotes for every single keyword in my FAQ. There is a reason for it, though: this way the Keyword Abilities section has the evergreen keywords first, and then the non-evergreen. That way, all the evergreen keywords are grouped together and people don't have to go dashing all about to find the keywords that appear in every set. Non-evergreen keywords just get added to the list at the bottom.

Would a smarter method be to just bump the top non-evergreen keyword down to the bottom of the list?  That way you'd only have to fix the numbering for that one ability.


A smarter method would be to have evergreen keywords as 702.XX and non-evergreen keywords as 703.XX - which causes more pain immediately, but less when new evergreen keywords are introduced, and generally less pain when an existing keyword gets promoted (assuming promoted keywords come more from candidate evergreen keywords being tried as non-evergreen and then promoted based on their reception than from ancient keywords being re-evaluated - at present, all rules between old and new positions would get renumbered; with two lists, only the rules after the old position might get renumbered, depending on whether you remove or just blank the old rule)

Having a numbered list where you're going to want to add new elements in the middle is generally poor design, though other considerations may outweigh this...
M:tG Rules Advisor
Is this update also the M12 update?  The article seems a bit unclear on this point.
No.  The M12 update will be happening next month.
Is this update also the M12 update?  The article seems a bit unclear on this point.


I thought it was pretty clear this wasn't the M12 update. Though I guess it never says that specifically, it seems pretty clear this is just a little "bonus" before the M12 Oracle changes come around as scheduled.
Rules Nut Advisor
Ah.
Thanks for clearing that up, guys.
Shouldn't the new Rise from the Grave begin "Put target creature card from a graveyard", not "Put target creature card in a graveyard"? (The new Teneb, the Harvester uses "from" in this situation, as it should.)
It should.  This is something that was fixed in the February 2011 update, but was reversed just now with the Commander update.

My hypthesis is that the text for the Commander cards was finalized prior to the February update, meaning that it was printed with the Oracle text at that time ("in").  Then, when the Commander update went live, every card's Oracle text was updated to the Commander printed text.  Normally, doing this makes sense, since it means the Oracle text will match the most recent printing, and most changes are just to things like reminder text or formatting.  However, in this case, it meant that an actual correction to Oracle was undone.

Skullclamp was similarly affected.  In that same update, it got changed from "When" to "Whenever", but it was reprinted in Commander as "When", and the Oracle text got changed back to that.
I noticed the Rise from the Grave issue as well.

I recall reading somewhere that R&D is essentially a whole year or more ahead, so it would have been June 2010 or earlier that they finished with Commander. Certainly explains it. Too bad about the Gatherer thing.


Can't you guys have some sort of diff utility on Oracle text so you can catch these things? :P