Out of Print

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So a local game store just announced that the following books are now out of print:

Adventurer's Vault
Dungeon Delve
Dark Sun Campaign Setting

I have heard other game stores claim this as well but I have seen nothing from Wizards. While I have the Dark Sun Campaign Setting (and the other two books) I am a bit disappointed if this is true. 
So a local game store just announced that the following books are now out of print:

Adventurer's Vault
Dungeon Delve
Dark Sun Campaign Setting

I have heard other game stores claim this as well but I have seen nothing from Wizards. While I have the Dark Sun Campaign Setting (and the other two books) I am a bit disappointed if this is true. 



They never gave Dark Sun a chance, with that offline/online Character Builder fiasco, followed by Essentials.  I think things really would have unfolded very differently if they'd handled all that better. 

It's true. My FLGS had problems getting the Dark Sun Campaign book 2 months after it was released. I never did ask if they got some more in.

These are diminished days. One print run and that's it. They say they are releasing less products to get a handle on the errata. While noble, it's a fabrication. Name a company under Hasbro who would pull the brakes on production on a product line that was selling off the hook? Simply put- if 4th was having strong sales we would be seeing more in the pipeline. Instead, D&D is not bringing in strong numbers, so they cut its production.

Anyone who simply believes that the cut in products is because Wizards said they wanted to focus on quality, is either naive or bleeds true Wizards blood.
OP: In 3ed, books went OP before I started playing, and I managed to get some.

Vaeron: Are you suggesting that they did not print off of the Dark Sun book because of Essentials/other things? That's the only way I can read this that doesn't translate into "Selling lots of books is bad business."   

Hunterian:  Settle down. You're confusing "releasing less new books" with the print runs of each new book. This thread isn't about WotC's publishing schedule, but about their printing schedule/capacity. 

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

I don't know where you are located that your retailer is making the claim as to things being out of print...

Alliance Distrubition still has Dungeon Delve and Dark Sun Campaign Setting in their catalogue, so there is at least still stock of them to be ordered by any store that uses one of the largest distribution companies I (a consumer) know of.

...though I believe that Adventurer's Vault is actually "gone" because I don't even see it in the catalogue as being out of stock.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

I don't know where you are located that your retailer is making the claim as to things being out of print...

Alliance Distrubition still has Dungeon Delve and Dark Sun Campaign Setting in their catalogue, so there is at least still stock of them to be ordered by any store that uses one of the largest distribution companies I (a consumer) know of.

...though I believe that Adventurer's Vault is actually "gone" because I don't even see it in the catalogue as being out of stock.



It's not a claim- it's a fact. It should go without saying but I guess I must point this out. Alliance Distribution, as one of the largest distributors, carries a mammoth stockpile. They could still be selling out of print books at normal price long after a book is out of print because- ready for it- they have a huge stockpile. It's putting 1 + 1 = 2 together, and it's not rocket science.
I don't know where you are located that your retailer is making the claim as to things being out of print...

Alliance Distrubition still has Dungeon Delve and Dark Sun Campaign Setting in their catalogue, so there is at least still stock of them to be ordered by any store that uses one of the largest distribution companies I (a consumer) know of.

...though I believe that Adventurer's Vault is actually "gone" because I don't even see it in the catalogue as being out of stock.



It's not a claim- it's a fact. It should go without saying but I guess I must point this out. Alliance Distribution, as one of the largest distributors, carries a mammoth stockpile. They could still be selling out of print books at normal price long after a book is out of print because- ready for it- they have a huge stockpile. It's putting 1 + 1 = 2 together, and it's not rocket science.


...you know that Alliance (at least used to) mark products as out of print in the catalogue so that retailers would be able to now that stock might be limited?

Beyond that, who told the retailer the product was out of print? WotC hasn't announced it, and they are the only ones that would actually be able to confirm that - anything else is just a claim someone is making.

There is 1 + 1 = 2 for you.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

I don't know where you are located that your retailer is making the claim as to things being out of print...

Alliance Distrubition still has Dungeon Delve and Dark Sun Campaign Setting in their catalogue, so there is at least still stock of them to be ordered by any store that uses one of the largest distribution companies I (a consumer) know of.

...though I believe that Adventurer's Vault is actually "gone" because I don't even see it in the catalogue as being out of stock.



It's not a claim- it's a fact. It should go without saying but I guess I must point this out. Alliance Distribution, as one of the largest distributors, carries a mammoth stockpile. They could still be selling out of print books at normal price long after a book is out of print because- ready for it- they have a huge stockpile. It's putting 1 + 1 = 2 together, and it's not rocket science.


...you know that Alliance (at least used to) mark products as out of print in the catalogue so that retailers would be able to now that stock might be limited?

Beyond that, who told the retailer the product was out of print? WotC hasn't announced it, and they are the only ones that would actually be able to confirm that - anything else is just a claim someone is making.

There is 1 + 1 = 2 for you.



Do you also need Wizards to confirm that the sky is blue? But fine, if you still refuse to ignore facts, then be happy in blissful ignorance. Didn't Wizards tell you 1+1= 1?
5th ed is on the way ;)
To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
5th ed is on the way ;)

Here's to hoping that it wil be nothing like Essentials.

The sycophants and EULA quoters aren't worth our time. 4E =/= Essentials; Essentials =/= 4E. To WotC/DDI: GO "SOON" YOURSELVES. Internet Rule #41. Needs moar Desu. No exceptions.
I think the problem with the DSCS specifically was that they made a book that was targetting both Players and DM's. I don't think that besides the PHB 1/2/3 there's a Player's book above $30, and the other Player's Guides for Eberron and FR are $30 bucks a piece and come with information that is essentially all available to the PC starting out (no big secrets or anything, those would all be in the appropriate Campaign Setting, just the standard everyday life in each region).

Combining both into one book meant that a gaming table only needed to buy the one instead of two, but both DM's and Players were left with sections they didn't really have much to do with; Race/Theme/Class mechanics for DM's, (the fluff is actually really useful though) and Running a DS Game aswell as the info blurbs in the Atlas of Athas for players, surprisingly is seems the Creature Catalog is still in print even though that's only targetted for 1 of the 4-7 people at the average table...
Do you also need Wizards to confirm that the sky is blue?

What I am getting from this is that you believe you can look out a window and upward and see a list of what books are out of print...

But fine, if you still refuse to ignore facts


And all I have to say in response to this is actually quite simple - According to the way in which you are using the word "fact," the following italicized statement is also a fact:

The guy down at my FLGS said that Paizo took out a big loan and fudged their books so that no one would know they haven't sold a single book in over 8 months.

Since "fact" obviously means "statement delivered 2nd hand on the internet with absolutely zero proof behind it and readily available evidence that suggests the contrary."

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

Do you also need Wizards to confirm that the sky is blue?

What I am getting from this is that you believe you can look out a window and upward and see a list of what books are out of print...

But fine, if you still refuse to ignore facts


And all I have to say in response to this is actually quite simple - According to the way in which you are using the word "fact," the following italicized statement is also a fact:

The guy down at my FLGS said that Paizo took out a big loan and fudged their books so that no one would know they haven't sold a single book in over 8 months.

Since "fact" obviously means "statement delivered 2nd hand on the internet with absolutely zero proof behind it and readily available evidence that suggests the contrary."



When various stores across the country are stating they can't order these three books anymore, that's a bit telling. Washington State and Ohio, two FLGS stores in each state, stated their distributors told them these three books are no longer available from Wizards. I live in both states and frequent the FLGS a lot.

When we have hard cold facts that these books are no longer available, you are being stubborn in the 'if wizards doesn't say it isn't out of print, then it's not'. like I said- it is not hard to figure out that these three books are no longer in print. I think you just want to argue for arguments sake now. Trust me- these books will start to go up in price on eBay and amazon (they already have on Amazon, except for dungeon delve).

Please note- Wizards has already told these store's distributors that these books are no longer available.
I don't know where you are located that your retailer is making the claim as to things being out of print...

Alliance Distrubition still has Dungeon Delve and Dark Sun Campaign Setting in their catalogue, so there is at least still stock of them to be ordered by any store that uses one of the largest distribution companies I (a consumer) know of.

...though I believe that Adventurer's Vault is actually "gone" because I don't even see it in the catalogue as being out of stock.



I live in the SF Bay Area so I have at least half a dozen game stores to choose from here if something is not available at one store. The announcement was made by a store in the East Bay and I have no idea what distributor they use. As my post stated, I have not heard anything official from WotC so I tend to keep an open mind about news like this. I can understand Adventurer's Vault and Dungeon Delve, those books I can see going out of print. The Dark Sun Campaign guide that is a couple months shy of a year old going out of print sort of bothers me if it is true.
Judging by today's Rule-of-Three, the selling out of Dark Sun may mean we get more classic campaign settings coming out. So, expectations exceeded means we get more cool stuff. Nice.

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

Books go in and out of print all the time. An older book might sell out of Wizards' warehouse, but there will still be significant stockpiles in the distributor/retailer pipeline. Sometimes that means Distributor A can't get copies, while Distributor B has plenty of copies sitting on his shelves. The same thing happens in every business that involves warehouses, distributors, and retail stores. If you can't find something in your FLGS, ask at the counter. If they can't get it, check a bigger bookstore or look online.


Also, some older books DO go out of print and don’t get reprinted. If the publisher did a good job predicting consumer demand, then after some period of time, just about everyone who wants a copy probably has one and that book is taken out of print. After the last copies trickle out, it’s not likely that more will be printed unless backorders indicate that there’s a lot of unmet demand. Core books that everyone needs aren’t likely to go out of print, but something like Dungeon Delve does.


I can't answer which books are or aren't stockpiled in warehouses, for any number of pretty obvious reasons. Just because a particular store doesn't have any copies of Book X in stock, or even if it can't get copies from its regular distributor, doesn't mean there are no copies of Book X available. You might need to look in more than one place to find it, however. 


Steve

If your only tool is a warhammer, every problem looks like a gnoll.

5th ed is on the way ;)

Here's to hoping that it wil be nothing like Essentials.




That is my current nightmare.(essentials IS the 5th edition pattern shiverr....... man dont do that to me)
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Amazon.com is your friend, shortly followed by google.com. The books are out there to be bought.

It's a shame that Eberron and Dark Sun haven't been expanded on at all. I guess they expect folks to use the old books but as someone who never played 3.X and long ago donated his older D&D books it would be nice to see some product support. I guess there's no market for that any more or something. 
I know it's not possible, due to obvious reasons, but I so wish I was in the know on Wizards stuff. Like how the process of making DDM is done. The print number of each books. Etc, etc, etc. Oh well.
5th ed is on the way ;)

Here's to hoping that it wil be nothing like Essentials.




That is my current nightmare.(essentials IS the 5th edition pattern shiverr....... man dont do that to me)



Do you think they will announce 5th edition at GenCon this year or next year?
5th ed is on the way ;)

Here's to hoping that it wil be nothing like Essentials.




That is my current nightmare.(essentials IS the 5th edition pattern shiverr....... man dont do that to me)

If so, I will officially become a grognard holdout for the first time in my life (having played through every edition change except the introduction of AD&D).

t~

Unless 5th edition is more tactical and crunchier than 4th, I'll probably not make the transition. I'll bear no I'll will towards 5th; it's just that I already have a lifetime's worth of 4th edition D&D material.
Unless 5th edition is more tactical and crunchier than 4th, I'll probably not make the transition. I'll bear no I'll will towards 5th; it's just that I already have a lifetime's worth of 4th edition D&D material.





If you would be happy for a lifetime playing 4E with the material you already have, why do you complain about Essentials as persistently as you have been doing?
...whatever
Older 4e books going out of print is not a sign of 5e (or the apocolypse for that matter).  Aside from maybe the PHB/DMG/MM1, none of the releases were intended to be evergreen in the first place.  I'm sure very few of them even got a second print run, and the designation of "out of print" is less an indication that WotC has no intention of reprinting them than it is the supply of these books has finally dwindled.

There's also the whole design plan of the Rules Compendium, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Monster Vault, and the three dungeon tiles sets (the dungeon, the wilderness, and the city) are your only true evergreen products at this point.  Everything else will be put out there and demand will determine its life cycle.

Like it or not, DDI is WotC's major revenue stream at this point, which means nothing truly goes "out of print" as long as you have access to the online Compendium.  All you lose is the flavor text, which most of the earlier printings had precious little of in the first place.

The loss of Adventurer's Vault is a bit of a shame though, as I'd argue that's one of the core, necessary books to play 4e as an entirely pencil and paper game.
Unless 5th edition is more tactical and crunchier than 4th, I'll probably not make the transition. I'll bear no I'll will towards 5th; it's just that I already have a lifetime's worth of 4th edition D&D material.



When I 4th was announced, I said this about my 3.5 library.  After I played 4th once, i never played or wanted to play 3.5 again.  I've since given the 3.5 books away.  Guess i'll have to wait and see what happens.
Unless 5th edition is more tactical and crunchier than 4th, I'll probably not make the transition. I'll bear no I'll will towards 5th; it's just that I already have a lifetime's worth of 4th edition D&D material.



When I 4th was announced, I said this about my 3.5 library.  After I played 4th once, i never played or wanted to play 3.5 again.  I've since given the 3.5 books away.  Guess i'll have to wait and see what happens.



True. I'll buy the core book set for sure. I hope 5th doesn't come too soon. I'd like to see where they go with Essentials over the next few years. The last two releases have been great. I even like HoS.
One possibility to consider when a retailer tells you a D&D book is out of print, is that they are just confused by the new WotC policy on Essentials being 'evergreen.'  That implies that nothing else is, so it'd be very easy for a rep trying to tell a retailer that he doesn't /need/ to cary the PH1 (or anything else other than Essentials) anymore, to inadvertantly leave that retailer with the impression that he /can't/ order the PH1 anymore.  The retailer then tells you that it's 'out of print.'

 

 

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I wish they would just retire the three core books- PHB, MM, DMG.
If essentials is the new evergreen, and the new entry point for new players, then the three core books need to be pulled from the shelves.

Imagine a newbie who buys the PHB and shows up to play with a Cleric. Another player has access to DDi and shows up with cleric too from the PHB; with the character builder the errata is already incorporated into the character the DDi user made. The newbie, with a hand made cleric, would be without the errata. The two clerics would be completely different.

I was at Barnes and Noble a few weeks back. Two kids, perhaps ten, were in the D&D section. They seemed confused on what to buy. They almost walked out with the PHB and the DM kit. I sat with them for a while and explained Essentials to them. Thankfully, they ended up buying Heroes of the Fallen Lands to go with the DM kit.

There is a bit of exposure at retail bookstores. If there are books like Dark Sun Creature Catalogue, Arcane Power, Eberron Camapign Guide, Dungeon tiles master sets, and perhaps a hero book or two, along with the original DMG and PHB, how is Essentials beginner friendly? What a mess.
I hope Wizards doesnt publish anything hardcopy until they iron out all the details digitally, online first.

In the meantime, the Essentials is fine until the game evolves into something substantially different.