Land Tapping in DotP 2012

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Can we select which lands we tap for mana in DotP 2012? I have not see this question answered yet.
no u cant
@chavafx: proof??
@chavafx: proof??



It was in the german review linked somewhere around page 20 of the new cards thread.
Microbless or Worth, can you confirm?
I really hope that's not true. This is probably the #2 response from public opinion, after core-card removal, tapping your own lands. Please at least give us the option to do this ourselves. There's so many ways of doing this, which have been articulated at great length all over these forums for years. The defence that it would slow the game down is as weak as the arguments against core-card removal, so it's time to admit that it needs to be done. Let's not wait until the next installment for this... if this game is as great as it's made out to be, this is easy-as-pie to implement and should be a dead cert for inclusion.

I'll give my own personal way of doing this, and I hope Microbless could take it to the Wiz-dudes along with the other great ideas on here, for future addition if it's not already here:

Clicking the left analogue stick (or some similar currently redundant control) toggles between auto tap (current system) and manual tap.

In manual tap, when you select a spell or ability that includes any unspecified mana [ eg ] in the payment, you get a window that comes up showing you your land close up and asking you to pay. For example, if I was playing Claws of Vengeance (R/G/W) and I cast Brion Stoutarm, I get up a display like this:




****************

? ?

Please choose the remaining mana to pay

****************



And shown which buttons do what, such as:




****************

X:
Y:
A:
B: Cancel

****************



and in the closeup of my land, it shows me that a Mountain and Plains have already been tapped for the compulsory mana payment, and I can then choose what to pay for the remaining ones. This would take about 2 seconds once you get used to it. I can press B to change my mind and not cast the spell. Colours I don't have available (all lands of that type tapped out) would be greyed out in the above control scheme. This would quickly become second nature, and the negligible extra time it would add to the duels would be well worth both teaching and allowing mana management, and the proper introduction of skill and not losing games because the AI messes up on your behalf.

Of course in mono decks, having manual tapping on doesn't do anything since there are no choices to make. And with two colour decks you'd only need say X, Y and B.

Does anyone out there actually not want the option to tap their own lands? If people are that worried, it could be included as an option when setting up the game lobbies that auto-tap is on by default, so that they don't have to wait for people to choose mana.

In closing, I would also add that no matter how good the AI is at tapping for you, it can never predict exactly what you will want. Often there is the choice to leave just one or two lands, in a combination of colours, untapped, and each combination will correspond exclusively to different spells and abilities you could use. It cannot leave all your options open, and it cannot know, without you telling it, which of those configurations is the one you want.
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totally agree with rob on this,when i play the paper game i may leave certain mana untap as to suggest i have a cancel in my hand,even when i don't.it's a perception thing.
I think manual mana-tapping is a good idea and should be included but i don't see it as a major problem if it isn't in the new game. Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't there only 1 tri-coloured deck in Duels 12? So i don't see it being as much as a problem as it was in the original. That being said i don't see any reason why it shouldn't be in the new game as it can't really hurt if it is included.
It can mess you up just as well in 2 colour decks. I've lost countless games because of this which should have been auto wins.
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totally agree with rob on this,when i play the paper game i may leave certain mana untap as to suggest i have a cancel in my hand,even when i don't.it's a perception thing.



Just make the spell go on the middle of your screen then have it 'point' at the lands with that white lands, highlight the one you want, and it taps.

That would work just as well!

Anyone from Wizards care to comment on this please?
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As said before the German review already stated that there is no manual mana tap and I doubt they will change that until release.

To be honest I really fear the manual mana tap would slow down the game even more with that many beginners around. Some people are already that slow when attacking, playing spells... Most times I do a second thing (like writing here) when playing the game online.

On the other side I've lost many games because of the auto tapping, too. And bluffing a counter or another instant should really be part of the game.

A solution (might have been said before) would be an auto pre-selection, that you only have to confirm by pressing the button (which you did when playing the card) again. From my experience in the old game 99 % of that AI-selections should be OK, but you should have the possibility to change a land by selecting it (cursor + another button) and selecting the land you want to tap instead (cursor + another button again). The game would only slow down when people have to change the auto-selection, which shouldn't be to often.

Maybe they will have it in the settings?
That way people who want to tap manually can do so  

As said before the German review already stated that there is no manual mana tap and I doubt they will change that until release.

To be honest I really fear the manual mana tap would slow down the game even more with that many beginners around. Some people are already that slow when attacking, playing spells... Most times I do a second thing (like writing here) when playing the game online.

On the other side I've lost many games because of the auto tapping, too. And bluffing a counter or another instant should really be part of the game.

A solution (might have been said before) would be an auto pre-selection, that you only have to confirm by pressing the button (which you did when playing the card) again. From my experience in the old game 99 % of that AI-selections should be OK, but you should have the possibility to change a land by selecting it (cursor + another button) and selecting the land you want to tap instead (cursor + another button again). The game would only slow down when people have to change the auto-selection, which shouldn't be to often.




Yeah that's a really good idea, it was brought up a long time ago but is definitely worth mentioning again. It's a very good compromise.

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We already have the mechanism for paying X mana for certain spells -- it seems like that could be easily adapted to support multi-color mana tapping.
Yes, another good point!
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This is my #1 problem with DOTP and the only reason I won't be buying this iteration of the game. I can deal with the limited deck editing, but not being able to tap your own land totally breaks the game when you can't use your mana like you want with the multicolor decks. It's a fundamental part of Magic, how can they omit it?
Alright, I'll admit that I've had some, "why did it tapped that mana, I could use that" times, but I don't find it game breaking, and it doesn't do it(in my opinion) enough for me to say that they need manual mana tapping. Sure it would be nice in some situations, but in a mono deck it's just time comsuming and tedious, and waiting for the oponent to calculate while choosing what mana to tap would be boring. =/
I think you're exaggerating with the manumal mana tapping problem  - it's in no way a game braker - Iplayed many hundreds games and there where only a couple of times that the game tapped the mana the way i didn't want. Sure i lost the game beacause of it, but many times more i lost the game beacause i couldn't play cancel ets. due to sync or other problem. In my opinion that was much worse problem.


Yep, the AI recognizes when you have a second spell in hand which can be played afterwards and leaves the right mana open.

It gets problematic...
...when you have two spells of different colours (like Lightning Bolt and Dispel. The old game tends to leave red mana open, but most times you want to be able to counter.
...when you want to play a creatures ability like Furnace Whelp's.
...when you want to bluff, for example a Cancel playing MoV, but the game realizes that you have only white spells and taps your islands instead of your plains

I would really be happy about any improvement. But the named situations don't occur that often (especially with the ten decks we get - 6 mono, Elves and Kiora shouldn't be problematic and even Tezzeret with that many colourless spells shouldn't have problems), wouldn't stop me from playing the game.
At least hope the programming on which mana to tap is improved!
Not that it was that bad in DotP09, but any improvement is good!

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Somehow I think it's easier to implement a manual tapping mechanic thannprogram an AI to tap smarter (especially when it comes to bluffs like leaving blue mana untapped to feign a counter). So if it's left out it's a specific design choice rather than lazyness.
Well, now.. I'm all for tapping your own land, but in certain situations late-game, when bigger creatures are coming out, etc. I could see it being a tad annoying to sit and wait for someone to decide which mana to tap, particularly online.

That is my ONLY quam with tapping your own mana. Other than that, (and that is surely a limited experience) it wouldn't be too bad.

I still think I'd prefer the automated method though. Not to mention it would be a pretty useless feature for the mono-color decks.
How about this for another compromise:

While manual tap is turned on, when you play a spell/ability, you have (for example) a 5 second timer in which to choose which lands to tap for the unspecified mana in the cost. If you don't choose by the end of that 5 seconds, the AI implements its usual auto-tap.

If this happens 3 times for the same player in the same duel, then auto-tap is forcably turned on for that player for the rest of the duel, and they get a dialogue message telling them this.

This will stop people:


  1. Taking way too long to decide what to tap

  2. Not realizing manual tap is on or not understanding what's going on anyhow

Either way, it will minimise the amount of time that you have to wait for a manual tap to 5 seconds max per cost.

Thoughts?
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As I previously stated, I don't see the point, but it seems like a little much to ask for, in my opinion. Plus, think of all the extra programming and posible bugs that could come out of it.

Edited: All I'm saying is that it's been good to me excluding a couple times of dickery. Maybe it could be implemented in the next game, but we should wait and see before making this a really big deal, it could be better.
As already mentioned by others i too think that the best solution would be the option to switch between manual and auto landtapping by pressing a specific button in the match.
When and if it is implemented, it should still auto-tap all land except for one case only: colorless mana when there is more than one color mana available. For example, if a spell costs 1RU, the red & blue will be tapped automatically and if you only have 1 color remaining untapped then that will be tapped automaticly also. You will only manually select what to tap if 2 or more colors are available for that last colorless tap.

This means mono decks will be completely automatic and a very large percentage of spell casting in multi-colored decks will be automatic. Chances for delay should be minimal.
My favorite color to play is Blue and thus I've been screwed several times by AI land tapping. I think choosing your own colorless mana to play is a key part of the game. I understand limiting scope of the game for the console version. I just wish they didn't treat casual players like idiots and assume that choosing what lands you tap is too difficult. It is not.
My favorite color to play is Blue and thus I've been screwed several times by AI land tapping. I think choosing your own colorless mana to play is a key part of the game. I understand limiting scope of the game for the console version. I just wish they didn't treat casual players like idiots and assume that choosing what lands you tap is too difficult. It is not.



My favorite deck was Mind of Void and I almost never got screwed on mana.

Also it bothers me what you said about them assuming casual players are idiots, I'm sure that wasn't that thought process at all. There was a reason why it was not implimented, this being a strategy game, I'm sure them assuming us to be stupid isn't it.
"Manual tapping would take too long" is SUCH a BS reason. Even the most naturally-busy kids with the worst case of ADHD imaginable have a quadrupled attention span compared to that!

Besides, it could be very simple. Instead of Rob's suggestion, we'd get a window like the current "how much to pay for X?", only this time you get multiple options: 1 for 1 color, 1 for the 2nd color, and perhaps 1 for the 3d color. With this you select how you want to pay the colorless mana (limited to how much the card costs obviously, with X having no limitation except the amount of lands) and TADA! Of course, this box would not appear when having only 1 type of land on the field or when there's no colorless cost on the card.

If you tell me that takes long, I'm telling you it's raining elephants here.
When and if it is implemented, it should still auto-tap all land except for one case only: colorless mana when there is more than one color mana available. For example, if a spell costs 1RU, the red & blue will be tapped automatically and if you only have 1 color remaining untapped then that will be tapped automaticly also. You will only manually select what to tap if 2 or more colors are available for that last colorless tap.

This means mono decks will be completely automatic and a very large percentage of spell casting in multi-colored decks will be automatic. Chances for delay should be minimal.


Yep, that's exactly how it should be implemented. Prompt the user which land they want to tap to pay colorless cost when they have more than one color land available to tap. Everything else could tap automatic.

Also it bothers me what you said about them assuming casual players are idiots, I'm sure that wasn't that thought process at all. There was a reason why it was not implimented, this being a strategy game, I'm sure them assuming us to be stupid isn't it.



What is your rationale for why they do not allow us to choose our own land to tap?

Early on in the DotP release, the reasons given for not including deck editing and land tapping was that this product was geared for beginner/casual players. The phrase "treating casual players like idiots" is my interpretation of this. It was speculated that choosing your own mana was in the game at one point (just like deck editing) and they took it out before the final product. The tutorial even still had reference to choosing your lands for multi-colored decks.

If WotC think that this is too much of a burden for casual players, then I feel they are treating us like idiots (whether intentional or not).

Agreed. And we already have the "complete beginners" D09 game, and with core-deck editing it seems like D12 is moving on somewhat. Surely if you are capable of designing a deck properly, you can turn a couple of lands sideways while you're at it? It would be nice to acknowledge that players do progress, and faster than Wizards seem to think. I mean, tapping lands for mana is probably one of the very simplest aspects of the whole game.
I am a Rules advisor. Feel free to send me any questions as a private message! Check if you have found a bug in Duels 2013 Report a bug Report a technical issue I have written several guides to help new DoTP players here, move to the first post to start reading. They are also in Wordpress format here. The principles involved should still be useful for Duels 2013!
Useful links:
Find other DoTP players - a database of friendly players, find a match or post your name here to be added to the list! I'll add a D13 section if anyone would like. Ask a rules question - ask anything about DoTP, Magic in general, or to check out if you've found a bug by asking if the rules are being followed. Community thread for general chatter in the DoTP part of the forum! Guide to Yugioh on Xbox live: A beginner's guide focusing on the similarities and differences to Magic.
I've played mods with manual mana tapping and nonland mana sources. It takes forever to play even the simplest game. I can play a normal match in 5-10 minutes, but the same thing turns into 30 minutes when you have to activate land individually, and it sucks. It's boring. It goes like this:

*ping* red mana
*ping* red mana
*ping* green mana
*ping* green mana
*ping* green mana
*ping* green mana
*ping* white mana
*ping* white mana
And the whole time I'm just sitting there rolling my eyes just hurry up already
--and finally Godsire goes on the stack--



Having said that, there's an interactive MTG demo that seems to use the same interface as this game, and it has a not-terrible manual land tap mechanic. So I'm really not sure why they seem to have removed an oft-requested thing that was already there.
When and if it is implemented, it should still auto-tap all land except for one case only: colorless mana when there is more than one color mana available. For example, if a spell costs 1RU, the red & blue will be tapped automatically and if you only have 1 color remaining untapped then that will be tapped automaticly also. You will only manually select what to tap if 2 or more colors are available for that last colorless tap.

This means mono decks will be completely automatic and a very large percentage of spell casting in multi-colored decks will be automatic. Chances for delay should be minimal.



This is a pretty good solution and would cope with most situations where options & bluffs are available.  I'd make it optional still though - opt in - just to keep the main experience as fast & friendly as possible. It's not that new players can't grasp tapping it's just that it's faster and more fun without that step in the mono deck sections.

Other tweaks could be that you select which mana to leave 'open' as a default before the game (tap red first, tap blue first) but i could see this being annoying or confusing.
It wouldn't slow the game down at all because you could easily impliment a hybrid auto/manual tapping system. Just make it so if you select a spell it auto taps. If you select land you can tap to put mana into your pool and then mana in the pool gets used first when you later select a spell. There, perfect solution.

Even in rare situations where you are manually tapping lands for mana, you probably wont even have to tap all the lands. For example say your playing Cries and you want to cast Cloudcrown Oak but you want to leave mana available for Giant Growth. You have 5 mana available, 4 Forest and 1 Mountain, but you're afraid the auto-tapper is going to use all your forests. You just tap the mountain to add red mana to the pool then select the Cloudcrown Oak from you hand and the auto-tapper takes the red mana from the pool first and gets the rest by auto-tapping. It's fast, it's intuitive, it would be awsome.
I don't know if this suggestion have been already suggested, but here it is:

One solution could be if land tapping was like in the previous game, but if you wanted to you could manually tap/untap lands when you press the "Stop Timer" button, if you're not happy with how the computer tapped for you.

You would respond in a similar way as with instants.

Damn the system and its hypocrites! You quit your quest and venture into the slums of the Gruul Clans!
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Take THE QUEST FOR RAVNICA today!
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It's fast, it's intuitive, it would be awsome.



Except, if a player is implementing that in his play, he is either stalling or I know what exactly he is saving that mana for. Both situations are abusable. I am sure you can see it. 

It's fast, it's intuitive, it would be awsome.



Except, if a player is implementing that in his play, he is either stalling or I know what exactly he is saving that mana for. Both situations are abusable. I am sure you can see it. 




Isn't this where the fun begins? You assume I have something like giant growth because I wanna leave 1 green mana open at any cost. Now I can bluff and attack without it or maybe you reconsider your next attack.
One of the "hard" challanges wuld be very easy if it let you tap certain land.

You have Sword of Vengence, Dragon Whelp and Gifts ungiven in hand.

9 Mountains, 8 Islands

Do 12 Damage.

If you're going to make a flaw in your game, don't make it obvious in a challange :p
Hello

I am pretty much brand new to the game (dabbled a little bit when I played YuGiOh).
I'm writing a game review for my tech column in the paper I write for.
I'm really enjoying the game, but I have to say one of the first flaws I noticed was not being able to select your own lands for tapping; I came to this forum to check if there was anyway of changing it or if it was an oversight by the developers.
I hear what you are saying re slowing the game down, but it makes sense to me that if you're using a multicoloured deck, you should have the option of switching on manual choice - I think holding down a button (one of the triggers perhaps) when you are playing a spell to engage manual selection would male most sense.

I was hoping you could help me with something else (im hoping its not another flaw, I was prepared to give the game a pretty high score).
I was playing with an artifact deck, and there was an artifact creature that when tapped, gave all other artifacts +1/+1.
I notioced that when this card was on the field, but I didnt have a card I could play in my main phase in my hand, the computer automatically brought me into the combat phase and I couldnt activate the creature's effect.
Am I doing something wrong, or is this another oversight?
Any help greatly appreciated (and sorry for the n00bspeak)
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