Cunning Sneak rogues and Chameleon

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I am a DM for a large group (8 players), and two of the characters are Cunning Sneak rogues with the Chameleon level 6 utility. Both PCs have good stealth skill modifiers and magic items that give them concealment. 
While I don't want to take away from the fun of my players' chosen character type, I am becoming frustrated at how often they can remain hidden when monsters gain line of sight to them. Most monsters near their level tend to have pitiful Perception, and the exceptions have special senses to null the players hidden statuses.
I don't have a problem with the amount of damage these strikers are dealing, but if my monsters can't detect them, it is very difficult to endanger these characters at all.
What methods can I occasionally build into my encounters to challenge these players that don't deliberately mess with their abilities?
So far I've used encounters with no cover (so they're reliant on their items to get it), monsters with tremorsense or blindsight, area attacks which just happen to include their square (but the attacker's -5 to hit can make this a non-threat), and monster's using their minor actions for Perception checks (which usually don't succeed). All of these tactics except Perception checks feel to me like I'm being mean to the players, but once they're hidden the Chameleon power will usually keep them so for the rest of the fight 9 times out of 10. 

So what other tactics can I add to my DM repertoire so I'm not using the same no-you-can't-stealth tactics over and over again?
... area attacks which just happen to include their square (but the attacker's -5 to hit can make this a non-threat)..



The -5 from total concealment from the hidden status does not apply to area or close attacks. No form of concealment does. (Cover does, but is traced from the origin square, so area burst attacks can often bypass cover by being centered in a square that the rogue lacks cover from.)


A possible way to give them a nasty reprecussion is to use focus fire combined with plot reasons that make extended rests impossible. Since you can't even see the rogues, they're off the target list. If your defender is anything squishier than Sin the Librarian, he probably can't absorb 100% of an encounter's damage, encounter after encounter while the rogues hide in the back being invisible. Of course, that may depend on the availability of Comrade's Succor. If you push the party into a real time crunch where they don't have the time to spare on casting rituals, by the end of the day you might be able to make your defender have to hide behind the rogues   
If your defender is as tough as Sin, instead focus fire on the leader, sucking up whatever punishment the defender can dish out. Even if he survives he won't be able to use HS anywhere near as efficiently.

Even without outright fully focusing fire, the fact that you have 2 less targets to chose from will naturally focus your attacks somewhat.   
Thanks Istaran, I had forgotten that area and close exclusion for concealment.
You're right about the focussing fire issue, if they're more heat on the other characters they might eventually have to try riskier tactics later in the adventuring day. 
Or at the worst, it will force the defensive oriented PCs to get their spotlight as well. If the defender is taking an entire encounter's damage output and successfully standing up to it, with some much needed help from the leader, while the rogues are being sneaky damage dealers, then that means everyone is doing the job they signed up to do, hopefully successfully. I understand wanting to make them work for it, but also the PCs are essentially supposed to win. Let the Cunning Sneaks do exactly what it is that Cunning Sneaks are supposed to do (which is to say, be hidden at all times and thus essentially non-targets), with just the occassional fight that can bypass it to mix things up.
Sin the librarian? please elucidate.
Amazed at how obtuse people can be since 1972.
Sin the librarian? please elucidate.



Some ultimate defender build presumably, capable of tanking indefinitely.
Sin the librarian? please elucidate.



Some ultimate defender build presumably, capable of tanking indefinitely.



It's my LFR Dragonborn Shielding Swordmage/MC Battlemind/Iron Guardian(currently level 19)

I wouldn't say he's an overall optimal character, but he tends to get Aegis of Shielding on everything in a fight and then use Iron Defense when appropriate combined with a HS value > 1/3 his max HP and with bonuses that can stack up to about his bloodied value to healing per HS (before counting in whatever the leader might add on top) so he can soak a rediculous amount of damage (or block 20 pts / round if the enemy decides to ignore him, leaving him free to do annoying controllery style things). Even before paragon I had Bloodcut armor which let me sacrifice my turn (minor + standard, and costs a HS.. not cheap) to keep up a potent resist-all which kept enemy focus fire from taking me down.


In general, I haven't seen other defenders able to soak entire encounters worth of damage, but for Sin that's kind of ideal. The more sane advice I hear is to grab two or three shares of the enemy.   

 
I'm curious what items the rogues are using to maintain concealment.  If they don't have improved cunning sneak or high enough int you can slow them, because unless their power lets them move less and stealth, they have to move at least 3 squares away from their starting position to make a stealth check.  Difficult terrain + slow can hamper things until later levels, plus terrain that blocks their line of sight, so they have to move beyond the range that their powers that let them move and maintain hide to attack.  Also smaller maps, so if the monsters do use burst or blast powers they have a greater chance of hitting the hidden rogues


from the compendium:
Once per Round: You can take only one immediate action per round, either an immediate interrupt or an immediate reaction. If you take an immediate action, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn, but you can’t take an immediate action on your own turn.

so if two different monsters manage to knock them out of hidden in the same round, they wouldn't be able to use that power a second time that round.

The higher level they get the harder it will be to find/attack them.  The advice about focusing on the other party members seems like the best.  I play a dual wield xbow drow rogue and at lvl 14, there is almost nothing that will ever see me, unless it has tremorsense or some way to see hidden.  With feats/items my rogue only has to move 2 spaces to hide and I maintain concealment as long as I can attack (not hit) an enemy with CA, most powers let me move more and hide.
Basically my rogue gets hit 1 time every two or three encounters if I'm unlucky because it's built to hide all the time.
Well from personal experience, at least in epic there's the shadow band which the property is gain concealment, period.  Nice item really, though it is epic so most likely this rogue doesn't have that yet.
Traps and terrain effects.
They can use their thievery to disable them, so it gives them more to do.
They trigger from pressure plates/tripwires, and attack with bursts, so hidden does nothing useful.
They can also be used to force a lot of movement (the rolling boulder down a narrow passage is a personal favourite), change the terrain mid-fight (the pillar falls over, it deals damage in a burst 1, no longer provides cover, and the area of the burst becomes difficult terrain), or other shenanigans.
Terrain powers should be usable by both the monsters and the PCs (though it might require a dungeonerring/nature/perception check to spot them).
Also, I'd agree with the previous posters that this isn't necessarily a bad thing, since you can just focus on the defender, the leader, and the other strikers, and it wears the party down faster for the rogues not to be targeted in a long adventuring day.

Since they obviously want to sneak about, play to it, have the BBEG casting a ritual and the end of a large room full of pillars, trusting his guards to keep the party back, and with an ability to teleport away if they get too close (which the party have seen in a previous encounter). The rogues can sneak through the room (making sure not to be spotted) to get to him, pickpocket away his teleportation device, and then have him at their mercy. If they don't spot that route, well, then its the standard "can you kill everything before the ritual completes" fight, and your BBEG lives to fight another day.

Also, a few hidden monsters of your own can make their life a little more interesting when they go to the cover in the first place. 
"I am the seeker, I am the stalker, I am the walrus"

from the compendium:
Once per Round: You can take only one immediate action per round, either an immediate interrupt or an immediate reaction. If you take an immediate action, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn, but you can’t take an immediate action on your own turn.

so if two different monsters manage to knock them out of hidden in the same round, they wouldn't be able to use that power a second time that round.


True, they can't use Chameleon twice in a round, but the way I'm reading the power they don't have to. (And this is the part that really irritates me)
Effect: Make a Stealth check. You remain hidden from the triggering enemy if your check beats its passive Perception check. Until the end of your next turn, you can remain hidden without needing any cover or concealment.
So they make the check when one enemy breaks their cover, and then after that, they are hidden from any enemy that has line of sight to them.

But using more difficult terrain and slow and immobilized effects would help at least.  

Also, a few hidden monsters of your own can make their life a little more interesting when they go to the cover in the first place. 



Now this is a suggestion thats easy to implement. Laughing More Lurkers, I hardly use them so it will be a nasty surprise.

Also, Defender must die (or at least kept further away from the squishies, since he's a Knight he's not too useful if he gets slid into a corner). Lets see how they fair without one (and I mean one, there are 8 pcs, only one defender.) 
First, make sure your playing by all the stealth rules.  Like attacking reveals you.  Chamelon is a strong power, but it's not "always hidden".  It takes some investment to get there.  It also leaves preassure on your allies.

"but also the PCs are essentially supposed to win"

is this a new credo in 4e? let the players win?

Yes.
Or at least more so then "let the players roll new characters every week".
They also tried to reduce the amount of influence that luck had, so a single bad roll wouldn't kill you (3 can).

Of course, it's pretty easy to make things more difficult.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.