"As If You Spent a Healing Surge"

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I couldn't find it with the search engine and in the update pdfs so here I am asking. When you use a power that has someone heal as though they spent a healing surge, does it actually trigger effects that go off when a healing surge is used?
When you use a power that has someone heal as though they spent a healing surge, does it actually trigger effects that go off when a healing surge is used?

Yup

Could you tell us which power you had in mind, specifically? 

I was looking at Lay on Hands, for example, and it only says "Instead, the target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge."  The target regains HIT POINTS as if it had - it doesn't say anything about allowing other effects that would be triggered by the target if it had spent a surge.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”


Could you tell us which power you had in mind, specifically? 

I was looking at Lay on Hands, for example, and it only says "Instead, the target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge."  The target regains HIT POINTS as if it had - it doesn't say anything about allowing other effects that would be triggered by the target if it had spent a surge.




i think most of them are going to be worded this way, which would answer to the above question, "No".  Usually its going to say "the target gains HP as if it had spent a healing surge", i have yet to see anything that would imply that affects would triger off it, as usually its just a healing action worded like above.
Could you tell us which power you had in mind, specifically? 

I was looking at Lay on Hands, for example, and it only says "Instead, the target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge."  The target regains HIT POINTS as if it had - it doesn't say anything about allowing other effects that would be triggered by the target if it had spent a surge.


I think it also depends on what the OP means by "other effects."  For example, if you have a Belt of Mountain Endurance (which specifically triggers on "When you spend a healing surge...") and your Paladin uses LOH on you while you're bloodied, I would assume you would still get the bonus hit points.

So, Lucas... can you also tell us what specific "effects" you had in mind?

loose [loos] vt. to let loose; to release; to unfasten, undo or untie; to shoot or discharge. lose [looz] vt. to come to be without (something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc., so that there is little or no prospect of recovery; to fail inadvertently to retain (something) in such a way that it cannot be immediately recovered; to suffer the deprivation of. LEARN THE DAMN DIFFERENCE. The pen is mightier than the character builder. Copy this to your sig if you like 4e but don't use the CB. "OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E." -RedSiegfried
For example, if you have a Belt of Mountain Endurance (which specifically triggers on "When you spend a healing surge...") and your Paladin uses LOH on you while you're bloodied, I would assume you would still get the bonus hit points.



I'd have to agree because with LOH the target only gains hit points as if it (the target) had spent a healing surge.  Other effects that are not gaining hit points are not mentioned.  Since this belt allows you to get more hit points when you spend a surge, I'd allow it.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

There's a lot of powers that use that phrasing. I didn't have one in mind. I guess they picked an odd way to phrase it to make it sound like it triggers healing surge based effects ( by that I mean things that say when you spend a healing surge ), instead of just saying " You gain HP equal to your healing surge value. " Saying that it is like you spent a healing surge highly implies that other things that happen when a surge is spent also occur.
There's a lot of powers that use that phrasing. I didn't have one in mind. I guess they picked an odd way to phrase it to make it sound like it triggers healing surge based effects ( by that I mean things that say when you spend a healing surge ), instead of just saying " You gain HP equal to your healing surge value. " Saying that it is like you spent a healing surge highly implies that other things that happen when a surge is spent also occur.



The difference being that it DOES trigger things that allow you to gain more hit points when you spend a healing surge- if you have something that says "regain 5 extra hit points when you spend a healing surge," you get those 5 extra hit points.  That's why they don't just say heal your surge value; any healing you'd get by spending a surge, you get from those powers.  Any non-healing effect you'd get from spending a surge, you don't get from those powers.

You do not get extra effects when you use a power that says you heal as if you spent a healing surge.  This was shot down back when they changed Pacifist Healer to only apply to powers which you use to allow an ally to spend a healing surge.  You do not get the Pacifist Healer benefit if you use the Cure line of powers since they do not allow an ally to spend a healing surge but it allows them to heal as if they spent a healing surge.

Is there a rule that explicitly says healing as if you spent a healing surge is somehow not actually healing as if you spent a healing surge? I'm somewhat surprised by this, but my errata/FAQ fu is weak.
I couldn't find it with the search engine and in the update pdfs so here I am asking. When you use a power that has someone heal as though they spent a healing surge, does it actually trigger effects that go off when a healing surge is used?



I'm not sure I see how effects that trigger from spending a healing surge can trigger if no surge is spent.
Yeah, that's just it.  Healing as if you spent a healing surge is not the same as healing by spending a healing surge.  That's why you don't get those benefits.

Go try to buy something using monopoly money "as if it were cash" and see how far you get. 

Go try to buy something using monopoly money "as if it were cash" and see how far you get. 



But.. there isn't anything anywhere that says you can buy things with monopoly money as if it were cash. If a store had a sign up that said they accept monopoly money as if it were cash, you can damn well bet they'd be obliged to not only accept your monopoly money, but also to pay the government their cut in sales tax (and no the government would not accept monopoly money as if it were cash).

I believe you're right on your conclussion, or at least that's my understanding of it, though it strikes me as logically contradictory to claim you are regaining HP "as if you spent a surge" if you aren't getting every single bonus HP that would be applicable if you actually spent a surge. If the total number of HP healed is different than what you would get back if you spent a surge, in what sense are you regaining HP 'as if you spent a surge'?  
to be honest that entirely depends on the wording of the power, and the triggering effect, but most will contradict themselves, IE

Power:  gain HP as if you spent a healing surge, item : +2 healing when spending a healing surge.

i thought, hey that would trigger, but you didnt spend a healing surge so it really wouldnt.  it kind of shoots itself in the foot, but its pretty plain that you would not gain the +2 healing effect.

Go try to buy something using monopoly money "as if it were cash" and see how far you get. 


I believe you're right on your conclussion, or at least that's my understanding of it, though it strikes me as logically contradictory to claim you are regaining HP "as if you spent a surge" if you aren't getting every single bonus HP that would be applicable if you actually spent a surge. If the total number of HP healed is different than what you would get back if you spent a surge, in what sense are you regaining HP 'as if you spent a surge'?  



If I am getting my healing surge value in hit points, then I am regaining hp as if I spent a healing surge.  There is nothing more or less to it than that.  

Of course, if something increases your healing surge value (such as the Dragonborn's racial ability to add their CON modifier to their healing surge value or the paragon Dwarven feat to do something similar) then those would be included in "regain hp as if you spent a healing surge."  But if I have a feat that says that I get an addition hp when I spend a healing surge, then I do not get that additional 1 hp unless I am actually spending a healing surge. 

You do not get extra effects when you use a power that says you heal as if you spent a healing surge.  This was shot down back when they changed Pacifist Healer to only apply to powers which you use to allow an ally to spend a healing surge.  You do not get the Pacifist Healer benefit if you use the Cure line of powers since they do not allow an ally to spend a healing surge but it allows them to heal as if they spent a healing surge.




Pacifist Healer is a seperate issue.  It's triggered by using a divine power that lets a target spend a healing surge; the argument there was that powers like Cure Light Wounds don't let a target spend a healing surge, thus using it is not using a Divine Power that lets a target spend a healing surge, and thus using it cannot trigger Pacifist Healer.  There's never been an argument, much less an official statement, that I'm aware of that would stop any "heal X more when you spend a healing surge" abilities from working.  If it's bonus healing you get when healing because you spent a healing surge, it's bonus healing you get when healing as if you spent a healing surge.


Edit: I tracked down the thread on the Pacifist Healer interaction, and there was neither a consensus nor official response (beyond contradicting CS responses) even on the Pacifist Healer question.  If you have some sort of link to where you think this was "shot down," I'd like to see it.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
If I am getting my healing surge value in hit points, then I am regaining hp as if I spent a healing surge.  There is nothing more or less to it than that.  

 



If I spend a healing surge I get about 60 HP back. If I gain my HSV in hit points, that's 43. Gaining 43 HP is not gaining HP as if I spent a healing surge. It's off by about 20 (give or take.. there's a bunch of conditional stacking modifiers including a tattoo who's contribution changes each surge I spend, so I can't give a hard number out of context.)

So why should "gaining HP as if I spent a healing surge" give about 2/3 the amount of HP as if I spent a healing surge? Especially when there is the alternate wording in use in some places of "gain HP equal to your healing surge value" which would clearly be the 43 number? (Or not, belt of blood changed HSV, so does my ally's belt of sacrifice. So maybe up to 49 if I'm bloodied and near the rogue.)

I'm pretty sure there was a FAQ or CS response or something that convinced me you're right along the way, way back when the healing nerf hit, I just can't remember what it was. But linguistically it's always bugged me. If "gain HP as if you spend a healing surge" is taken at face value it can only possibly mean that you gain the exact number of HP you would have had you spent a healing surge.    
I think Istaran's post summed it up nicely. If spending a healing surge would get you 15 hit points, even though your healing surge value is 9, then you should get the 15 if a power tells you to regain hit points as if you spent a healing surge. That is literally what the power is telling you to do. Not regain hit points equal to your healing surge value.
If I am getting my healing surge value in hit points, then I am regaining hp as if I spent a healing surge.  There is nothing more or less to it than that.  

 



If I spend a healing surge I get about 60 HP back. If I gain my HSV in hit points, that's 43. Gaining 43 HP is not gaining HP as if I spent a healing surge. It's off by about 20 (give or take.. there's a bunch of conditional stacking modifiers including a tattoo who's contribution changes each surge I spend, so I can't give a hard number out of context.)

So why should "gaining HP as if I spent a healing surge" give about 2/3 the amount of HP as if I spent a healing surge? Especially when there is the alternate wording in use in some places of "gain HP equal to your healing surge value" which would clearly be the 43 number? (Or not, belt of blood changed HSV, so does my ally's belt of sacrifice. So maybe up to 49 if I'm bloodied and near the rogue.)

I'm pretty sure there was a FAQ or CS response or something that convinced me you're right along the way, way back when the healing nerf hit, I just can't remember what it was. But linguistically it's always bugged me. If "gain HP as if you spend a healing surge" is taken at face value it can only possibly mean that you gain the exact number of HP you would have had you spent a healing surge.    


The issue errata that cleaned up healing was along the lines of the following:

1.  Healing that "allows you to spend a surge" does not grant it's bonus healing "if you don't acutally spend the surge".
2.  Some bonus healing is conditional on "acutally spending the surge".  Example:
Collar of Recovery
Property: Gain extra hit points equal to this item’s enhancement bonus when you spend a healing surge to regain hit points. 


3.  Some items grant their bonus on other conditions.  Example:
Belt of Blood
Property: Your healing surge value increases by your Constitution modifier while you are bloodied.


In your above example of a surge value of 43, then with both the above items equipped and bloodied your "surgeless" healing value would be 43 + CON modifier, and if you were to actually spend the surge you get the extra enhancement bonus from the Collar of Recovery.

Edit: The phrasing "as if you spent a surge" just means that you get to start at a base of your surge value and add in any conditional modifiers that apply.  This does not include modifiers that trigger on or require you to actually spend a surge.  This is just the general rule that gets overridded by the specific rule (remember specific beats general) of how the bonus is granted (above example of Collar of Recovery).
Collar of Recovery
Property: Gain extra hit points equal to this item’s enhancement bonus when you spend a healing surge to regain hit points. 


3.  Some items grant their bonus on other conditions.  Example:
Belt of Blood
Property: Your healing surge value increases by your Constitution modifier while you are bloodied.


In your above example of a surge value of 43, then with both the above items equipped and bloodied your "surgeless" healing value would be 43 + CON modifier, and if you were to actually spend the surge you get the extra enhancement bonus from the Collar of Recovery.

Edit: The phrasing "as if you spent a surge" just means that you get to start at a base of your surge value and add in any conditional modifiers that apply.  This does not include modifiers that trigger on or require you to actually spend a surge.  This is just the general rule that gets overridded by the specific rule (remember specific beats general) of how the bonus is granted (above example of Collar of Recovery).



Where in the errata are you seeing that?  I haven't been able to find anything in the update document that says that, though maybe I've overlooked something.  They did change some things so that Astral Seal and the like- which don't behave "as if you'd spent a healing surge-" aren't able to get all the bonuses they once could, but they haven't made any changes that would stop you from getting bonus healing that normally requires a healing surge from powers that act as if you'd spent a healing surge.

If they'd meant recover your healing surge value, they would have said that.  Healing as if you'd spent a surge is quite different than just healing your surge value.
Until someone can provide a rules source, I'm inclined to think that the "accepted answer" is actually incorrect. There's already been 4 or 5 requests to cite where "regain hit points as if you spent a healing surge" does not actually mean "regain hit points as if you spent a healing surge" somehow.... So, can someone can provide an errata PDF, FAQ, or a book/page on the subject?
Until someone can provide a rules source, I'm inclined to think that the "accepted answer" is actually incorrect. There's already been 4 or 5 requests to cite where "regain hit points as if you spent a healing surge" does not actually mean "regain hit points as if you spent a healing surge" somehow.... So, can someone can provide an errata PDF, FAQ, or a book/page on the subject?

i know how it looks, but lets go the other route, provide a rules source that say that you gain the benefits of an item/feat/power that require to spend a healing surge, without spending a healing surge.
Where in the errata are you seeing that?  I haven't been able to find anything in the update document that says that, though maybe I've overlooked something.  They did change some things so that Astral Seal and the like- which don't behave "as if you'd spent a healing surge-" aren't able to get all the bonuses they once could, but they haven't made any changes that would stop you from getting bonus healing that normally requires a healing surge from powers that act as if you'd spent a healing surge.

If they'd meant recover your healing surge value, they would have said that.  Healing as if you'd spent a surge is quite different than just healing your surge value.


The errata mostly addressed the issue with Astral Seal as you say.  No errata is needed for the examples I posted.

The only way that what you say could be true is if the phrase "as if you spent" works to override each and every other rule that specifies "if you spend a healing surge".  Because there are bonuses that exist and work, without spending a surge, I find that reading to be faulty.  Here is an example item that grants it's bonus even to Astral Seal (no surge required).  This would also work with healing powers that specify "the target can heal as if it spent a surge".  Interestingly, it also works with a healing power that specifies "heal your surge value".
Healers Brooch
Property: When you use a power that enables you or an ally to regain hit points, add the brooch’s enhancement bonus to the hit points gained.



You've asked for a rules citation, but I've been making them.  The general rules on healing are overridden by powers that say "heal as if you spent a surge" and that is overridden by items that say "add enhancement bonus to any healing if you spend a surge".

There is a reason that it's hard to boost your "surgeless" healing value.  It breaks the game as proven by the giant nerf bat applied to Astral Seal. 
Until someone can provide a rules source, I'm inclined to think that the "accepted answer" is actually incorrect. There's already been 4 or 5 requests to cite where "regain hit points as if you spent a healing surge" does not actually mean "regain hit points as if you spent a healing surge" somehow.... So, can someone can provide an errata PDF, FAQ, or a book/page on the subject?

i know how it looks, but lets go the other route, provide a rules source that say that you gain the benefits of an item/feat/power that require to spend a healing surge, without spending a healing surge.



In the Online Compendium, a search on "as if you spent a healing surge" returns 43 powers, 36 items, and 5 feats; all examples of rules text that let you spend a healing surge without actually subtracting from the number of healing surges on your character sheet. Easiest. Question. Ever.

The onus is on others to show that this somehow does not work.
The errata mostly addressed the issue with Astral Seal as you say.  No errata is needed for the examples I posted.

The only way that what you say could be true is if the phrase "as if you spent" works to override each and every other rule that specifies "if you spend a healing surge".  Because there are bonuses that exist and work, without spending a surge, I find that reading to be faulty.



There's no rules basis for this, and there are plenty of powers (as you've noted in your reply) that allow you to heal your healing surge value. That is distinctly different than "as if you spent a healing surge." Using your logic, because there are other ways to do healing surge-based healing without spending or pretending to spend a healing surge, I find that reading to be faulty.

Luckily, I don't need to make up rules for my interpretation because there is literally nothing that prevents healing surge bonuses from working on effects that heal "as if you had spent a healing surge."

You've asked for a rules citation, but I've been making them.  The general rules on healing are overridden by powers that say "heal as if you spent a surge" and that is overridden by items that say "add enhancement bonus to any healing if you spend a surge".

There is a reason that it's hard to boost your "surgeless" healing value.  It breaks the game as proven by the giant nerf bat applied to Astral Seal. 



No one has made any rules citations. Citing a source requires you to provide the source of the rule; an errata article, a FAQ, or a book and page number. No one has done this yet. All anyone has done is say "this is how it works" without showing where it says that. Without citing a rules source, people are simply making stuff up.
Until someone can provide a rules source, I'm inclined to think that the "accepted answer" is actually incorrect. There's already been 4 or 5 requests to cite where "regain hit points as if you spent a healing surge" does not actually mean "regain hit points as if you spent a healing surge" somehow.... So, can someone can provide an errata PDF, FAQ, or a book/page on the subject?

i know how it looks, but lets go the other route, provide a rules source that say that you gain the benefits of an item/feat/power that require to spend a healing surge, without spending a healing surge.



In the Online Compendium, a search on "as if you spent a healing surge" returns 43 powers, 36 items, and 5 feats; all examples of rules text that let you spend a healing surge without actually subtracting from the number of healing surges on your character sheet. Easiest. Question. Ever.

The onus is on others to show that this somehow does not work.

How does your conclusion derive at all from any statement that you made?

Maybe you dont understand my post.

My entire point being that you cannot gain a benefit that requires you to spend a healing surge, without spending a healing surge.  its plain and simple.  you can gain the same healing 'as if you spent a healing surge', but you dont gain the same benefits as 'spending a healing surge".

all examples of rules text that let you spend a healing surge without actually subtracting from the number of healing surges on your character sheet.



these powers dont 'let you spend a healing surge', they allow you to provide/gain a benefit in duplicate 'as if you spent a healing surge', which is entirely different, hence the wording being entirely different.

if they wanted you to gain those benefits without spending a healing it surge it would not say 'when spending a healing surge', it would say something akin to 'when you receive the benefits of spending a healing surge', etc.  so it would work with both.

if the power explicitly states that you gain the beneift when spending a healing surge, there is no way shape or form that you get the benefit if you healing surges does not go down, as you didnt spend a healing surge.

Because specific trumps general. In this case, some benefit that triggers when a healing surge is spent is the general rule. I then use a power that let's me heal as if I spent a healing surge, which is more specific. The game, essentially, believes that I've spent a healing surge. Thus, stuff triggers.
The errata mostly addressed the issue with Astral Seal as you say.  No errata is needed for the examples I posted.

The only way that what you say could be true is if the phrase "as if you spent" works to override each and every other rule that specifies "if you spend a healing surge".  Because there are bonuses that exist and work, without spending a surge, I find that reading to be faulty.



There's no rules basis for this, and there are plenty of powers (as you've noted in your reply) that allow you to heal your healing surge value. That is distinctly different than "as if you spent a healing surge." Using your logic, because there are other ways to do healing surge-based healing without spending or pretending to spend a healing surge, I find that reading to be faulty.

Luckily, I don't need to make up rules for my interpretation because there is literally nothing that prevents healing surge bonuses from working on effects that heal "as if you had spent a healing surge."

You've asked for a rules citation, but I've been making them.  The general rules on healing are overridden by powers that say "heal as if you spent a surge" and that is overridden by items that say "add enhancement bonus to any healing if you spend a surge".

There is a reason that it's hard to boost your "surgeless" healing value.  It breaks the game as proven by the giant nerf bat applied to Astral Seal. 



No one has made any rules citations. Citing a source requires you to provide the source of the rule; an errata article, a FAQ, or a book and page number. No one has done this yet. All anyone has done is say "this is how it works" without showing where it says that. Without citing a rules source, people are simply making stuff up.


In that case, the source of the items I posted is the compendium.  As for the interaction or rules citation, there isn't one.  It's all in how you decide "as if you spent" (for any given ability or power) interacts with "if you spend" in any other given power/ability/item/etc.  To me, the "as if you spent" would have to have phrasing such as this to work as you say "you can also take advantage of any bonus healing effects that require you to spend a surge".  That would be a specific beats general and cause the "as if you spent" power to override all those other items/features/etc.  Barring such text, if an item/etc. requires you to spend a surge to gain it's benefit then you must spend a surge to gain it's benefit.  Period.  Post which ever items (with page # and book if you feel the need) you want and there is your rules citation.  I can't be much more clear than this.
Because specific trumps general. In this case, some benefit that triggers when a healing surge is spent is the general rule. I then use a power that let's me heal as if I spent a healing surge, which is more specific. The game, essentially, believes that I've spent a healing surge. Thus, stuff triggers.



but the specific rule for the power that you want trigger requires you to spend a healing surge, since you didn't, this specifc rule trumps the rule of triggering affects 'as if you spend a healing surge', since specific trumps general, then you dont gain the benefit.

  you can gain the same healing 'as if you spent a healing surge', but you dont gain the same benefits as 'spending a healing surge".




I agree completely with this sentence, even though I don't think it means what you meant it to mean.  You get the exact same healing as if you spent a healing surge, including healing bonuses that say "when you spend a healing surge," but you don't get any non-healing benefits that trigger on spending a healing surge.  If there were a power that said "act as if you spent a healing surge," you would get all benefits of spending a healing surge, because that power would be telling you to behave in all ways as if you spent a healing surge.  Powers like CLW tell you to regain all the hit points you would have gain if you'd spent a healing surge; if the number of hit points you add to your sheet is different than the number you would have added if you'd spent a surge, then you have not healed as if you spent a healing surge, and you're going against CLW's plain language.
Where in the errata are you seeing that?  I haven't been able to find anything in the update document that says that, though maybe I've overlooked something.  They did change some things so that Astral Seal and the like- which don't behave "as if you'd spent a healing surge-" aren't able to get all the bonuses they once could, but they haven't made any changes that would stop you from getting bonus healing that normally requires a healing surge from powers that act as if you'd spent a healing surge.

If they'd meant recover your healing surge value, they would have said that.  Healing as if you'd spent a surge is quite different than just healing your surge value.


The errata mostly addressed the issue with Astral Seal as you say.  No errata is needed for the examples I posted.

The only way that what you say could be true is if the phrase "as if you spent" works to override each and every other rule that specifies "if you spend a healing surge".  


And it does.  It tells all elements that change the amount you heal to act as if you'd spent a healing surge.  As far as those game elements are concerned, you did spend a healing surge, because that's what powers like CLW tell you to act like.


Because there are bonuses that exist and work, without spending a surge, I find that reading to be faulty.  Here is an example item that grants it's bonus even to Astral Seal (no surge required).  This would also work with healing powers that specify "the target can heal as if it spent a surge".  Interestingly, it also works with a healing power that specifies "heal your surge value".
Healers Brooch
Property: When you use a power that enables you or an ally to regain hit points, add the brooch’s enhancement bonus to the hit points gained.




I don't know what you're trying to go for here, but "there are things that boost all healing, whether or not you spend a healing surge" doesn't actually make any point relevant to this discussion.  It certainly doesn't contradict that "heal your surge value" and "heal as if you'd spent a healing surge" are different things.


You've asked for a rules citation, but I've been making them.  The general rules on healing are overridden by powers that say "heal as if you spent a surge" and that is overridden by items that say "add enhancement bonus to any healing if you spend a surge".

There is a reason that it's hard to boost your "surgeless" healing value.  It breaks the game as proven by the giant nerf bat applied to Astral Seal. 



CLW and the like have nothing to do with your "surgeless" healing value, because it tells you to use the value you'd use if you spent a surge.  It uses the "I spent a surge" healing value.

Astral seal broke things because it's at will healing; things can break if you have too much at will or encounter surgeless healing because you're not using up your daily resources to heal.  There aren't even any encounter powers that allow you to heal "as if you'd spent a healing surge," except for powers that let one player spend a surge on behalf of another (spending a daily resource).  Every power that lets you heal as if a surge was spent without taking one from another player is a daily; it doesn't break anything because you're still spending daily resources to heal, so you can't use it to indefinitely extend an adventuring day like Astral Seal used to be able to.

It's ridiculous to suggest that abilities that say to heal more if you spend a surge override CLW.  CLW telling you to act like you spent a surge is clearly more specific than anything that tells you what to do when you spend a surge.  The rules cite that I've been asking for is something backing up the claim that errata has affected CLW; since nothing's changed the way powers that heal as if you've spent a surge act, CLW does the same thing it did on release day- heals the exact same value you would heal if you spent a healing surge.
you have yet to demonstrate how you can gain the benefit of a power/feat/etc that REQUIRES you to spend a healing surge, without spending a healing surge.

i think the wording ". . . when you spend a healing surge . . ." is more specific then anything that says ". . . as if you spent a healing surge . . .".  I guess if you can prove otherwise . . .?
PHB1 p293: "Some powers (either your own or those of another character) allow you to heal as if you had spent a healing surge. When you receive such healing, you don’t actually spend a healing surge."

Let's look at each case individually:
Collar of Recovery
"...when you spend a healing surge"
Did I spend a healing surge?  No, as explicitly cited above and not countered anywhere else
Do I gain extra?  No

Belt of Blood
"...while you are bloodied"
Am I bloodied?  Yes
Do I gain extra?  Yes

Healers Brooch
"When you use a power..."
Am I the one using the power?  Yes
Do I gain extra?  Yes
you have yet to demonstrate how you can gain the benefit of a power/feat/etc that REQUIRES you to spend a healing surge, without spending a healing surge.



You're right, I've only shown that you gain the benefits of healing bonuses from things that normally require spending a healing surge.  I haven't demonstrated that you gain any other benefits because you don't.

CLW gives you healing bonuses from elements that trigger on spending a healing surge because it tells you to heal as if you'd spent a surge.  If they want you to heal your healing surge value without bonuses that trigger on spending a healing surge, they have a phrase for that- "heal your healing surge value."  CLW, on the other hand, tells you, for the specific matter of how much you heal, to act as if you'd just spent a healing surge.  As far as Collar of Recovery is concerned, you did just spend a healing surge, because CLW told you to act like it.  If spending a surge would heal you 25 hp, you'd better heal 25 hp when you're the target of CLW or you're not doing what the power told you to do.

Tell me, if a power just said "the target acts as if it had spent a healing surge," would you have any objection to it getting the benefit of a Collar of Recovery?
PHB1 p293: "Some powers (either your own or those of another character) allow you to heal as if you had spent a healing surge. When you receive such healing, you don’t actually spend a healing surge."



You're aware that just means don't decrement the number of healing surges you have left and has nothing to do with anything else in your post, right?

i think the wording ". . . when you spend a healing surge . . ." is more specific then anything that says ". . . as if you spent a healing surge . . .".  I guess if you can prove otherwise . . .?



You edited this in after I started my last response to you.  So it's the nature of specific vs general you have a problem with, rather than the meaning of "as if?"  Ok, I can work with that.  If "as if you spent a healing surge" was not more specific than "when you spend a healing surge," Cure Light Wounds would do absolutely nothing.  Why?  Because here's the rule that tells you what to do heal from spending a surge, from RC p. 258: "When an adventurer spends a healing surge, he or she regains hit points equal to his or her healing surge value."  If "as if you spent a healing surge" didn't trigger "when you spend a healing surge," you wouldn't get any healing at all.
You're aware that just means don't decrement the number of healing surges you have left and has nothing to do with anything else in your post, right?


No, I'm certain it means you didn't spend a surge.   I'm likewise certain that the wording of things like collar of recovery only work if you actually spend a surge.  What exception are you citing to get around this?

You're aware that just means don't decrement the number of healing surges you have left and has nothing to do with anything else in your post, right?


No, I'm certain it means you didn't spend a surge.   I'm likewise certain that the wording of things like collar of recovery only work if you actually spend a surge.  What exception are you citing to get around this?




Of course you didn't spend a surge; that's why you didn't decrement.  You just act like you did.  If my post above yours doesn't answer why CLW is providing its own exception here, let me know.
Hmm.  PHB1 p293 should have been more explicit e.g. "When you receive such healing, you don't actually spend a surge, but still heal your healing surge value in hit points."  OR, "When you receive such healing, you don't actually spend a surge, but you are considered to have done so in terms of the amount of healing you receive."  This should probably be clarified via FAQ or errata.

You are correct in saying that the wording of Cure Light Wounds only works as-is if your assertion is correct.  However RAW I suppose CLW doesn't work.  It's not trying to make an exception ("as if you spent a healing surge" is covered on p293), it's just making a statement.  p293 should have covered the process, but it failed to do so.

Without clear RAW we're left with RAI and analogies.   Somebody gives you a gift card that is "cash equivalent".  A certain store gives you a free trinket when you pay with cash.  You pay with your gift card.  Do you get the free trinket?  Heck no!  Because "cash equivalent" doesn't actually give you the benefits of paying with "true" cash.


Hmm.  PHB1 p293 should have been more explicit e.g. "When you receive such healing, you don't actually spend a surge, but still heal your healing surge value in hit points."  OR, "When you receive such healing, you don't actually spend a surge, but you are considered to have done so in terms of the amount of healing you receive."  This should probably be clarified via FAQ or errata.

You are correct in saying that the wording of Cure Light Wounds only works as-is if your assertion is correct.  However RAW I suppose CLW doesn't work.  It's not trying to make an exception ("as if you spent a healing surge" is covered on p293), it's just making a statement.  p293 should have covered the process, but it failed to do so.

Without clear RAW we're left with RAI and analogies.   Somebody gives you a gift card that is "cash equivalent".  A certain store gives you a free trinket when you pay with cash.  You pay with your gift card.  Do you get the free trinket?  Heck no!  Because "cash equivalent" doesn't actually give you the benefits of paying with "true" cash.






All 293 tells you is not to spend a healing surge when you heal "as if" you'd spent a healing surge.  You're trying to read it as "don't heal as if you'd spent a healing surge" when all it's telling you is "don't spend the surge."  Your reading is contrary to the plain text.  It's already being explicit, you're just reading more into it than is actually there.

CLW tells you to heal as if you spent a healing surge.  RAW, you get all they healing you'd get if you actually spent a surge.  If you're reading a power in such a way that it does nothing, then you're reading it wrong; specific vs general means it gets its effect even if normally you'd have to do something else to get that effect.  It's how powers work.

Your analogy has no bearing on the rule in question.  If the store policy was that using a gift certificate was treated "as if you'd spent an equivilant amount of cash," then you'd certainly get the trinket.
Just to throw something different into the mix:
HEALER'S LORE
When you restore hit points to a creature by using a cleric power that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points regained, but only if the healing involves the creature spending a healing surge.



The basic disagreement is that one camp asserts that:

"As if you spent a healing surge" is granting you an exception to any other phrasing such as "When you spend a healing surge..."

Whereas the other claim is that you get to heal without spending a surge, but no exception is granted.

Neither side has a solid case for their reading.  There is no proof to be had one way or the other other than circumstantial.  To that end I present the following rules analogy on the nature of "exceptions":

Shift
Limitation: Cannot shift while prone

Power X
Effect: Shift 3 squares.

The claim being made is similar to the above in that Power X granting you the ability to "Shift 3" also allows you to ignore the "cannot shift while prone" limitation.  We know that this is clearly not true.  There is no explicit exception granted to shifting while prone.  

vs.

Power Y
Effect: Shift 3 squares.  You may shift even if prone.

Here is a different power that has the explicit exception.  In the case of this power you may shift while prone becuase it says you can.  This is the explicit nature of exceptions.

The same is true of "as if you spent a healing surge".  Exceptions need to be explicit or they aren't exceptions.  "Effects that trigger if you had actually spent a surge may trigger from this effect".  Without such text there is no exception.