Force Master Jedi?

I'm working on building a Jedi that focuses more on the force, rather than the hack and slash of a light sabre. I was wondering if anyone would beable to help me work on building my character or perhaps offer suggestions and links that may help me.

The only real requirement in making this jedi is I would prefer to be light sided(Since most gms frown apon evil), focusing more on force powers than physical powers, and not be a complete glass cannon (All that damage isn't helping me if i'm dead, right?)

I'll be starting him off at level one but would like to plan his levels all the way up to 20, if possible.
Just build through Force Adept and Force Disciple.  Remember you can still be a Jedi and not have to take Jedi levels. 
I know you don't have to be a jedi but i was wondering if its advisible? Like, what kinda build should I use, if not straight jedi.
This is a build I made a long time ago. Note that we rolled for stats, and I rolled rediculously well, so you might have to adjust that in your mind.




Timanstow
CL 20
Medium Ithorian Noble 1/Jedi 6/Force Adept 3/Jedi Knight 2/Jedi Master 5/Force Disciple 3
Destiny ? ; Force 23 ; Dark Side 0
Init +15; Senses Perception +22
Languages Basic, Ithorese.
---
Defenses Ref 33 (33 Flatfooted), Fort 40, Will 45
HP / ; Threshold 45
---
Speed 6 Squares
Melee
Ranged
Base Atk +17; Grp +17
Special Actions Bellow, Serenity, Force Focus
Force Powers Farseeing (1/1), Force Grip (1/1), Move Object (1/1), Mind Trick (2/2), Surge (1/1), Enlighten (1/1), Force Shield (2/2), Rebuke (2/2), Sever Force (1/1), Cloak (1/1), Phase (1/1), Mind Shard (2/2), Force Whirlwind (2/2), Force Lightning (2/2), Drain Energy (2/2), Force Slam (1/1), Force Disarm (1/1), Vital Transfer (1/1), Energy Resistance (1/1), Negate Energy (2/2), Repulse (1/1), Intercept (1/1), Barrier of Blades (2/2)
Force Regiments Oxygen Bottle, Quiet the Mind, Telekinetic Practice, Vo'ren's First Cadence, Vo'ren's Second Cadence, Vo'ren's Third Cadence, Vo'ren's Fourth Cadence, Vo'ren's Fifth Cadence
Force Techniques Force Point Recovery, Dominate Mind
Force Secrets Quicken power, Devastating Power, Distant Power, Multitarget Power, Holocron Loremaster, Debilitating Power
---
Abilities Str 9/-1, Dex 10/+0, Con 12/+1, Int 10/+0, Wis 25/+7, Cha 25/+7
Special Qualities Iron Will, Fearless, Prophet, Indomitable
Feats Weapon Proficiency (Simple Weapons, Pistols, Lightsaber), Force Sensitivity, Skill Focus (Knowledge (Life Sciences), Use the Force), Force Training (x4), Strong in the Force, Force Boon, Fight through Pain,
Skills Use the Force +27, Knowledge (Life Sciences) +20, Persuasion +22, Deception +22, Initiative +15, Perception +22, Knowledge (Galactic Lore) +15
Talents Noble Fencing Style, Guardian Spirit, Telekinetic Savant, Force Focus, Mind Probe, Deflect, Mystic Mastery, Many Shades of the Force (Force Lightning), Body Control, Force Treatment, Force Regimen Aptitude, Believer Intuition
Possessions


Progression:


Level 1: Noble 1:
+19 HP
Defenses: +1 Reflex, +2 Will, +2 Will (Species bonus)
Feats: Weapon Proficiency (Simple weapons, pistols), Force Sensitivity, Skill Focus (Knowledge (Life Sciences))
Talents: Noble Fencing Style (KotOR p27)

Level 2: Jedi 1:
+1d10+1 HP
Defenses: +1 Fortitude
Feats: Weapon Proficiency (Lightsabers)
Talent: Guardian Spirit (JA p17) (Exchange for "Manifest Guardian Spirit (JA p18)" at a later respec point)

Level 3: Jedi 2:
+1d10+1 HP
Feats: Skill Focus (Use the Force), Force Training
Force Powers: Force Shield (Legacy p54), Force Grip, Move Object, Mind Trick, Surge, Enlighten (Legacy p54)

Level 4: Jedi 3:
+1d10+1 HP
Talent: Telekinetic Savant
Ability increases: +1 Wisdom, +1 Charisma

Level 5: Jedi 4:
+1d10+1 HP
Feats: Strong in the Force

Level 6: Jedi 5:
+1d10+1 HP
Feats: Force Boon
Talent: Force Focus

Level 7: Jedi 6:
+1d10+1 HP
Feat: Fight Through Pain (Galaxy at War p23)

Level 8: Force Adept 1:
+1d8+1 HP
Defenses: +2 Will, +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex
Talent: Mind Probe (JA p18)
Ability Increases: +1 Charisma, +1 Wisdom
Force Powers: Farseeing

Level 9: Force Adept 2:
+1d8+1 HP
Force Technique: Force Point Recovery
Feats: Force Training
Force Powers: Rebuke, Sever Force, Force Shield (Legacy p54), Cloak (CW p50), Phase (CW p51), Mind Shard (JA p28), Force Whirlwind (KotOR p51)

Level 10: Jedi Knight 1:
+1d10+1 HP
Talent: Deflect

Level 11: Jedi Knight 2:
+1d10+1 HP
Force Technique: Dominate Mind (KotOR p53)

Level 12: Force Adept 3:
+1d8+1 HP
Talent: Mystic Mastery
Feats: Force Training
Ability Increases: +1 Wisdom, +1 Charisma
Force Powers: Force Lightning, Force Lightning, Drain Energy (JA p25), Force Slam, Force Disarm, Vital Transfer, Energy Resistance (KotOR p50)

Level 13: Jedi Master 1:
+1d10+1 HP
Defenses: +1 Reflex, +1 Fortitude
Fearless, Serenity
Talent: Many Shades of the Force (Force Lightning) (JA p73)

Level 14: Jedi Master 2:
1d10+1 HP
Force Secret: Quicken Power

Level 15: Jedi Master 3:
1d10+1 HP
Talent: Body Control (JA p81)
Feats: Force Training
Force Secret: Devastating Power
Force Powers: Rebuke, Drain Energy (JA p25), Negate Energy, Negate Energy, Mind Trick, Force Whirlwind (KotOR p51), Repulse (TFU p87)

Level 16: Force Disciple 1:
+1d8+1 HP
Defenses: +2 Will
Ability Increases: +1 Charisma, +1 Wisdom
Prophet, Indomitable
Talent: Force Treatment
Force Powers: Intercept (JA p27), Barrier of Blades (JA p29), Barrier of Blades (JA p29), Mind Shard (JA p28)

Level 17: Force Disciple 2:
1d8+1 HP
Force Secret: Distant Power

Level 18: Force Disciple 3:
1d8+1 HP
Feats: Force Regiment Mastery (JA p23)
Talent: Force Regiment Aptitude (JA p18)
Force Secret: Multitarget Power
Force Regiments: Oxygen Bottle, Quiet the Mind, Telekinetic Practice, Vo'ren's First Cadence, Vo'ren's Second Cadence, Vo'ren's Third Cadence, Vo'ren's Fourth Cadence, Vo'ren's Fifth Cadence

Level 19: Jedi Master 4:
+1d10+1 HP
Force Secret: Holocron Loremaster (JA p37)

Level 20: Jedi Master 5
+1d10+1 HP
Force Secret: Debilitating Power (TFU p89)
Ability Increases: +1 Wisdom, +1 Charisma
Talent: Believer Intuition (CW p56)


Ah, thank you Darth Raptornu. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions on your choices? such as, why such low str, con, and dex? I understand you don't really need them but won't you be really squishy and killable, even more so at lower levels?

Secondly, why skill focus life science? Does it have any real use at all?

Lastly, how do you have force lightning, but no dark side points? (Or rather, why would you have it if you didnt' want dark side points)
Edit: did some reading, saw the talent that negates the dark side points.

I -think- that should cover all my noob questions, i'll have to look up everything before I have anymore.
Ah, thank you Darth Raptornu. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions on your choices such as, why such low str, con, and dex? I understand you don't really need them but won't you be really squishy and killable, even more so at lower levels?

Secondly, why skill focus life science? Does it have any real use at all?

Lastly, how do you have force lightning, but no dark side points? (Or rather, why would you have it if you didnt' want dark side points)
Edit: did some reading, saw the talent that negates the dark side points.


1.  The low STR, CON, and DEX are because this is a min/maxed character who's sole purpose appears to be to "break" use of the Force.  Also note the use of "rolled" stats which appear to have produced a 9,12,12,10,18,18 array (that's the equivalent of PB 43 when "normal" is something less than 30) which are very unusual and can lead to a "broken" character.  For what it's worth this character REALLY needs the support of others to survive the first few levels but picking up the Force Shield power at 3rd level along with Skill Focus makes survival MUCH simplier.  When it comes to attacking the Noble's Fencing style taken at first level allows the use of the CHA modifier when attacking with the lightsaber.  Once that character makes 3rd-level it is pretty much game-over at it can abuse the UtF skill vs Defense score issue that plagues SAGA.

2.  Skill Focus (Life Sciences) is just the conditional bonus feat a Ithorian gets.  By starting in Noble the number of skills this character can be trained in is hardly an issue so "throwing one away" to get the bonus isn't a big deal.

3.  Many Shades of the Force, taken with Jedi Master at 13th level will allow the character to choose a Force Power and use it without any Light or Dark descriptors.  That allows Force Lighting to be used without gaining DSP.  There is some debate about whether that talent covers just ONE instance of a power in a suite or if it covers all powers with that name but that arguement is best left for a different thread.


While DR's build starts with Noble you could basically do most of the same things by starting in Jedi.  The biggest difference would be that you can start with a respectable number of hitpoints (12 more) but a lot fewer skills.  The scarry thing is that you only really need one trained skill to make a devestating force user although more are helpful for other things.  Unfortunately I won't be providing any builds at this time as there are just so many ways to go and a lot depends on what resources you have to use and/or abuse.
  
I'm working on building a Jedi that focuses more on the force, rather than the hack and slash of a light sabre. I was wondering if anyone would beable to help me work on building my character or perhaps offer suggestions and links that may help me.

The only real requirement in making this jedi is I would prefer to be light sided(Since most gms frown apon evil), focusing more on force powers than physical powers, and not be a complete glass cannon (All that damage isn't helping me if i'm dead, right?)

I'll be starting him off at level one but would like to plan his levels all the way up to 20, if possible.



Quick question.  Are you abstaining from the use of a lightsaber or simply not focusing on it?

A few things to keep in mind.  You can slouch on Dexterity if you need a few extra points.  Your really good abilities are Wisdom first and Charisma to a lesser extent.  I usually go with humans since its hard to go wrong with a bonus feat, but any race that gets a bonus in Wisdom could be a good choice.  Really, though, most races have a little something to make them special, so go with what you like.

As a Jedi, you have to choose whether to go with decent Reflex defense or augment with Block/Deflect.  If you go with the former then I'd also suggest getting either Shii-Cho or Soresu form mastery, if not both.  Regardless of your direction, I think a lightsaber will serve you well.

Move Object, Force Grip, and Rebuke are staples.  I'm a big fan of Area Attack options, so take the Move Massive Object talent.  That covers your staples for damage.  I also like Force Shield and Energy Resistance.

I also like to have a couple of options for Lightsaber combat.  Saber Swarm is a staple in my Jedi builds, though if you're abstaining, you can pass on that.  That pretty much covers the essentials.  Of course, there are all sorts of utility and just plain cool stuff you can do.  Phase, Fold Space, Drain Energy, Vital Transfer, Cloak, and Farseeing is a must if you are going Force Disciple, which I definitely think you should.  More on that later.

Stats-wise, if you want to use your lightsaber to any degree of competence, you'll want a 12 or 13 in Strength, and maybe higher if you can spare it.  Dexterity is optional go with at least 10, but don't kill yourself trying to get it too high.  If you stick to the Soldier or Jedi base classes Constitution isn't very important.  Intelligence... make it as high as you need it, no more, no less.  Since you didn't spell out required skills, Intelligence could be a dump stat.  Wisdom, go for a 14.  A 15 or 16 would be better, but you'd just hurt yourself trying to get it higher than that out of the gate, but raise this at every opportunity.  Destiny bonus and class level bonuses come to mind here.  Charisma, I'd say go with a 14.  No more or less than that since you get diminishing returns on it, but it most certainly shouldn't be a dump stat if you are going with a Force focused character.

As for your starting class, I'd say Jedi knowing what I know, but I could make a case for Noble if you are interested in Noble Fencing Style (use your Charisma instead of Strength for your attack bonus when using your lightsaber).  Jedi gives full attack bonus in case you ever need to attack and massive HP.  It also gives Force Sensitivity and Lightsaber Proficiency at first level, sparing you some feats.

PrC and talents, I'd definitely aim for Force Adept/Disciple.  The prize is Force Adept's Channel Vitality.  This gem will pay back in spades for a Force Specialist as it can be used to buff powers, fuel talents, or power your Force Secrets when you start picking those up.  Pick up Equilibrium on the way to help offset the hits to your CT track.  With Equilibrium and Move Massive Object, you need one more Force talent of your choice.

There's my two cents.  I hope it helps.  If you have any question, feel free to ask.

I like the advice given to you thus far, and can support many of the decisions in talents and feats.


Ability Scores: (As pointed out in greater detail by Steveno and Sithlord006)  
    The Force Wizard is defined by a lack of physical ability in favor of massive development in his Charisma and Wisdom. Starting in Noble is a great idea, because it lets you use those ability points (normally spent on intelligence) to grant more of a bonus in Wis or Cha.


 Noble actually has a lot of talents and feats (in my opinion) that synch well with a Force Wizard.


[Noble Fencing Style] (uses Charisma instead of Str/Dex when making some melee attack rolls) is one of the best for a wizard type, for obvious reasons.


Another Noble talent that I am fond of is [Exceptional Skill: Use the Force] \from GoI/ it says any Use the Force check with a result of 2-7… becomes an eight. So for the exception of those pesky 1’s, its almost like taking 10 on those checks… but you are still in the running for higher rolls and natural 20’s.


But, as they say... the devil is in the details… so what ‘kind’ of Force wizard are you considering? Of the variety of Force users, some are particularly good (if not great) at niche thing.


(Unleashed) The Falucian Shamans are powerful hitters using the ‘Infuse Weapon’ Talent + the feats ‘Intuitive Attack’ & 'Strong in the Force'. But a Falucian also makes a great wizard for a variety of reasons. You get Force Sensitivity (for free) no matter what class you start in, and for each Force Training feat you acquire… you get a free ‘Force Blast’ force power.


    Say you pick up Telekinetic Prodigy (same book) which has a prerequisite of Telekinetic Power (I think… ) … now you can say you get two extra Force Powers per Force Training (Move Object and Force Blast). That is a leg up for any wizard… giving him two ranged offensive powers (for free) lets him buy those extra Utility Powers (like surge, Far See, Technometry) and Defensive Force Powers (like Resist Force, Force Shield, Negate Energy, Energy Resistance and so on).


Another detail is era.


   I might adore the idea of playing a Shaper of Kro Var… but technically… they don’t exist until after the Battle of Ruusan (1000+ BBY). These guys have a flavor I really appreciate.


A mind blowing build for your Force Wizard hails from the followers of the white current, the Fallinassi (JATM). They can use their Use the Force instead of stealth against creatures, droids… and security equipment… which is nice… but not as nice as their next little trick.


    The Talent [Surrender to the Current] makes these guys the fasting thing ever! They activate this talent as a swift action (I think) and can no longer use force powers that do not target ‘you’… or them only. So say goodbye to your offensive powers, but that’s okay because you can return (once per turn) a force power that targets only ‘you’ to your Active Force Suite… without spending a Force Point).


   Theoretically… if I want to build the Force wizard/ cat burglar… this is how I might do it.


    Add a few offensive powers like Mind Shard, Force Whirlwind (to slow them down), Force Stun, or whatever fits your character concept. But most of my Force Powers will be ones that can benefit from Surrender to the Current. Including, but not limited to


Force Cloak (every cat burglar’s dream power…right?) And at the Prestige class levels, consider Improved Force Cloak (technique) so you can maintain it as a move action (instead of a standard). Then you can phase around like a ghost as much as you want 


Phase (I don’t need that heavy tool kit, lock pick, or Code Cyllinder when I can walk through walls. Combined with Inertie and Levitate, you can walk/float/slide/skip/swing/ through any solid Surface you can reach…. And keep going …and going …


Levitate (as circumstantial as it might be, its great with the Illusion talent when you make it look like you just went up a slow moving elevator and they are pounding the call button on the side of a Pepsi machine…and waiting for an illusion)


Inertia (running on walls to find the perfect place to phase through seems like a good idea, but might be a great idea if you are in possession of the blueprint)


Surge (You could surge every turn if you want Mr. Speedy Gonzalas, with surrender to the current)


Plus the combative - Energy Resistance, Force Shield, Resist Force, Dark Rage, Crucitorm, Battle Strike (I think), Convection, and a whole bunch more I am sure.


You have many options of course.


I am curious what you may be relating your potential character to …or by what concepts you feel inspired?

Hmm...Tons of great point of views, it's given me a few ideas. Seems noble is a good starting class, considering it makes you less of a carried character at lower levels. I also see why you don't need high str, dex, int, or con.

As for details? I was thinking ithorian, great stats, racials, and i kinda like them(Dispite being kind of ugly) or a human.

how I want to play my jedi? I'm not really sure what play styles there are but I don't really want to focus on the light saber at all, I want to focus on using the force.(So i'm deadly even in my underwear)

Lastly, as for Era...I'm honestly not sure, I wanted to have this character premade for a game(if I manage to find one) but the problem is, I don't know what era any game i can manage to find will be in.
Hmm...Tons of great point of views, it's given me a few ideas. Seems noble is a good starting class, considering it makes you less of a carried character at lower levels. I also see why you don't need high str, dex, int, or con.

As for details? I was thinking ithorian, great stats, racials, and i kinda like them(Dispite being kind of ugly) or a human.

how I want to play my jedi? I'm not really sure what play styles there are but I don't really want to focus on the light saber at all, I want to focus on using the force.(So i'm deadly even in my underwear)

Lastly, as for Era...I'm honestly not sure, I wanted to have this character premade for a game(if I manage to find one) but the problem is, I don't know what era any game i can manage to find will be in.



I'd be careful dumping Constitution if you're going with a start in Noble.  If you don't use the Lightsaber then you can relatively safely dump Str and Dex and probably Intelligence.  The Jedi class doesn't need Con so much, but Nobles are squishy with 18 starting HP and an average of 3.5/level.
Hmm...Tons of great point of views, it's given me a few ideas. Seems noble is a good starting class, considering it makes you less of a carried character at lower levels. I also see why you don't need high str, dex, int, or con.

As for details? I was thinking ithorian, great stats, racials, and i kinda like them(Dispite being kind of ugly) or a human.

how I want to play my jedi? I'm not really sure what play styles there are but I don't really want to focus on the light saber at all, I want to focus on using the force.(So i'm deadly even in my underwear)

Lastly, as for Era...I'm honestly not sure, I wanted to have this character premade for a game(if I manage to find one) but the problem is, I don't know what era any game i can manage to find will be in.



I'd be careful dumping Constitution if you're going with a start in Noble.  If you don't use the Lightsaber then you can relatively safely dump Str and Dex and probably Intelligence.  The Jedi class doesn't need Con so much, but Nobles are squishy with 18 starting HP and an average of 3.5/level.

Well of course, I don't want to be a complete glass cannon. Besides, like I said. All that power doesn't mean much if you're dead.
You can "dump" CON if you start in Soldier or Jedi but if you start in Noble or Scoundrel and will be an "upclose person" which most force users need to be then you will want a decent CON score.  Even with a +2 advantage in CON modifier it would still take someone starting in Noble/Scoundrel SIX levels before they make up the hit point difference that starting in Soldier/Jedi would provide.  When you start with 30 hitpoints it usually takes a few hits to bring you down and you can survive a critical but with 18 hit points you go down easy after just two hits or one critical.

I don't know what you consider "carried at lower levels" but DarthRaptornus's build is pretty weak until it hits third level.  Now once Force Powers come online then it often doesn't matter how a "jedi" spends his lowest levels.
 
how's this sound for stats?

Str 9
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14

For ithorian(which i'm leaning towards) it would be

Str 9
Dex 8
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 16


That seems best, but perhaps a bit to weak. Is it worth dropping wis down to 16 to balance out the other stuff more?

Also, i'm a bit unsure about starting off as a noble..Would anyone really recommend it, or would I be better off with something else?
how's this sound for stats?

Str 9
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14

For ithorian(which i'm leaning towards) it would be

Str 9
Dex 8
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 16


That seems best, but perhaps a bit to weak. Is it worth dropping wis down to 16 to balance out the other stuff more?

Also, i'm a bit unsure about starting off as a noble..Would anyone really recommend it, or would I be better off with something else?

The way I see it, you have two potential reasons to want Noble as your starting class. 1) Noble Fencing Style (which would net you a +2 attack bonus of starting as soldier or Jedi) and 2) Skills.

If you don't want those things or the price for them seems too high, then I think Jedi is the starting class of choice for this character.  30 starting HP is nice, and you get Force Sensitivity and Lightsaber Proficiency.  I haven't seen you talk about skill selection, so I'm guessing it isn't very important.  Also, I do know you aren't minding your attack bonus much, so I'd probably go with Jedi.

The real trick, though, is that if you really want Noble Fencing Style, it is WAY easier to pick it up at level 1 than starting in another class and trying to pick it up later.  With two exclusive class skills as prerequisites (well, shared with Scoundrel, but that hasn't come up in this thread yet) in Deception and Persuasion, it could literally take 10 levels to get it later, so be very sure that you don't want Noble Fencing before picking another class.  Personally, I could go either way, but if I was making a point to abstain from saber use, I wouldn't bat an eyelash starting in Jedi.

You can work it either way.  I've played a Noble Force user before and quite successfully.  He didn't even HAVE  a lightsaber, so it can be done.  Just be very selective with your Force Powers.  In this case, higher Wisdom is better, period.  Don't go any lower for any reason.  Energy Resistance (maintainable as a swift action) and Force Shield (which can be activated as a reaction) can work wonders for you're life expectancy.  I like 1 Energy Resistance and 2 Force Shields.  Rebuke is important and you'll want that twice.  That pretty well covers the defensive power staples.  Offensively you'll probably want two each of Move Object and Force Grip.

If your GM allows it, Many Shades of the Force: Force Lightning would work wonders (and you can get this as a Force Disciple regardless).  This is really great if you can Channel Vitality.  You power this with a Force Point and get an easy 8d6 damage, -2 CT hits and a chance to get high damage for a third CT hit in one shot.  I mention this particularly because dedicated Force users (and Disciples in particular) see diminished efficacy at high levels.  With Many Shades: Lightning, you will keep your usefulness throughout your career since the CT hits are effective even if you 'miss' your attack.
how's this sound for stats?

Str 9
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14

For ithorian(which i'm leaning towards) it would be

Str 9
Dex 8
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 16


That seems best, but perhaps a bit to weak. Is it worth dropping wis down to 16 to balance out the other stuff more?

Also, i'm a bit unsure about starting off as a noble..Would anyone really recommend it, or would I be better off with something else?

The stats look OK to me. If you want to get more skills and hitpoints you can start in Scout. That way you can pick up Evation and get some protection from area attacks...

20801.jpg



Well, the real choice is...Can I afford to be so weak at the start? granted, i would be much stronger in the end, perhaps, if i started with jedi, however, the first two levels I would be really squishy and kinda useless in battle, though high a sem-high charisma score I could be good for diplomacy to avoid battles. Though, if I do go noble and keep my int low, I won't get linguist(not sure if it matters)

Secondly, noble woudl giv eme more skills, though I haven't put much thought into skills. Granted I would get more but i'm not sure if they're nessicary or not. (besides use force)
how's this sound for stats?

Str 9
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 14

For ithorian(which i'm leaning towards) it would be

Str 9
Dex 8
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 16


That seems best, but perhaps a bit to weak. Is it worth dropping wis down to 16 to balance out the other stuff more?

Also, i'm a bit unsure about starting off as a noble..Would anyone really recommend it, or would I be better off with something else?

Using PB 25?  I would lower the WIS a point to increase DEX two points and make sure I avoid a penalty in that stat; alternatively you could lower STR and CHA a point to do the same thing.  The number of Powers you get with Force Training is important if you rely on the Force for most of your power; lowering CHA may lower your UtF but that point isn't too important at low levels and while it may be missed at the highest level you should adjust your use of the Force anyway.  At low levels skill vs. Defense score is VERY powerful but at the highest levels the balance may swing the other way a bit.


As for the actual starting class what really matters is what else you want.  If you don't start Jedi there are only a few ways to get Force Sensitivity and Force Training at first levels if you can't wait until 3rd-level so that is a consideration.  



Well, the real choice is...Can I afford to be so weak at the start? granted, i would be much stronger in the end, perhaps, if i started with jedi, however, the first two levels I would be really squishy and kinda useless in battle...



I'm not sure I followed the logic behind this.  Jedi sounds to me to be the 'strong' choice.  Not necessarily the 'right' choice depending on the concept behind the character.  If you want to be a talker, go with Noble.  Wanna be a backwater planet explorer or want super reflexes (Evasion), go with Scout, as mentioned above.  A weapon specialist, brawler, or armored warrior could be a Soldier.  Find your niche and run with it.  There is no 'wrong' way to play.  Just pick your concept and optimize it as best as you can.  If you simply want to be a super Force user, the easiest and fastest way to accomplish it is through Jedi.
Well, the real choice is...Can I afford to be so weak at the start?

If you start in Jedi, the your Consitution won't really matter.  Even with a really terrible Constitution score of 6, if you start and remain in D10 HP classes, you'll still average 94.5 HP.  A character who focuses on skills and hangs around in D6 and D8 classes and who has 10 Constitution will only have around 97.5.  So you just need to get use to the fact that you're only about as durable as your weaker party members, but hardly weak yourself.  Notably, at low levels, you'd HP will actually be fairly good because of that initial 30 you get as opposed to the normal 18.  Also, there are a number of Force Powers and Talents that you'll want that can actually make you fairly durable.  Negate Energy and Energy Resistance can make it really hard to hurt you with any energy weapon, which are by far the most common.  DR 10 and Force Sheild are a huge help against other types of attacks.  And none of that counts the more creative ways of protecting yourself, like Cloak, Phase, or Move Object.  

Secondly, noble woudl giv eme more skills, though I haven't put much thought into skills. Granted I would get more but i'm not sure if they're nessicary or not. (besides use force)

Noble is a strong choice, but it comes with a few flaws.  The HP is terrible and you'll have to buy Force Sensitive with your level-based Feat, which means you'll be stuck without any Force Powers until level 3.  The primary advantage to Noble is the skills, but you really must ask yourself how useful those skills will be.  If you're intending to play a Force Wizard, I'd guess that another player is looking to be a social-skills character.  He'll probably want to be a Noble, and you definitely don't want to upsurp him.  And other than that, the Noble skills aren't that great.  I'd say that if you really want a different class, use either Scout or Soldier.  Neither is quite as bad for your health, and both can give you valuable abilities.  Plus, Scout even offers some skills that no one else is likely to get, giving you a unique skillset besides the Force.

On ability scores, some of it really depends on how focused you want to be.  You can be a decent Force Wizard starting with only 15 in each Wisdom and Charisma, but you won't necessarily be great.  Age modifiers can be a huge deal for a Force Wizard.  At the least, being middle-aged mean -1 to your three worthless abilities while also adding +1 to your two important ones.  And you can drop those physical abilities down really far and still remain extremely powerful.  I played a Force Wizard with only 4 Strength and 6 Dexterity and Consitution once, and he was easily one of the most powerful builds I've ever made.  You just need your Wisdom and Charisma to be extreme.  For example, if you start with only 15 in each, then add +2 from age and +2 to Wisdom from species, you can end up with 24 Wisdom and 22 Charisma while weilding a suite of 64 Force Powers and an array of Force Talents.

"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these


Well, the real choice is...Can I afford to be so weak at the start? granted, i would be much stronger in the end, perhaps, if i started with jedi, however, the first two levels I would be really squishy and kinda useless in battle...



I'm not sure I followed the logic behind this.  Jedi sounds to me to be the 'strong' choice.  Not necessarily the 'right' choice depending on the concept behind the character.  If you want to be a talker, go with Noble.  Wanna be a backwater planet explorer or want super reflexes (Evasion), go with Scout, as mentioned above.  A weapon specialist, brawler, or armored warrior could be a Soldier.  Find your niche and run with it.  There is no 'wrong' way to play.  Just pick your concept and optimize it as best as you can.  If you simply want to be a super Force user, the easiest and fastest way to accomplish it is through Jedi.



Well, I would love to be a super force user, then agian I'm pretty sure I would be pretty powerful towards the end, reguardless. I think I can afford to gimp myself a bit without making a major difference.

Noble seems to be a good starting choice, simply because it would make me somewhat useful in combat(but only when I have to be) and also give me skills that are very useful outside of combat.

Which reminds me, the skills I think I will pick if I go with noble is knowledge(life science) persuasion, perception, deception, gather info, and treat injury.

Anyway, if I pick jedi I think i'd be really useless, atleast untill I got my first set of force powers. What do you think?
If I may, here is a potential starting point.  18-point build:

Jedi 1
Force 5
Init +8; Senses Perception +10

Defenses Reflex 10 (FF 10), Fortitude 9, Will 16
HP 28; Damage Threshold 9

Speed 6 Squares
Melee -2
Ranged +0
BAB +1, Grp +0
Force Powers Known (Use the Force +8): 12 Powers

Abilities Strength 5, Dexterity 8, Consitution 6, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 21, Charisma 16
Talents Force Intuition
Feats Weapon Proficiency (Lightsaber, Simple Weapons), Force Sensitive, Force Training (1), Force
Training (2)
Skills Perception +10, Treat Injury +10, Use the Force +8

It is extreme, but it can be really powerful.  I am thinking about using something kind of like this for a new character in my game.  I am still torn between Force Wizard or something more Bond-villain-like.
"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these
If I may, here is a potential starting point.  18-point build:

Jedi 1
Force 5
Init +8; Senses Perception +10

Defenses Reflex 10 (FF 10), Fortitude 9, Will 16
HP 28; Damage Threshold 9

Speed 6 Squares
Melee -2
Ranged +0
BAB +1, Grp +0
Force Powers Known (Use the Force +8): 12 Powers

Abilities Strength 5, Dexterity 8, Consitution 6, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 21, Charisma 16
Talents Force Intuition
Feats Weapon Proficiency (Lightsaber, Simple Weapons), Force Sensitive, Force Training (1), Force
Training (2)
Skills Perception +10, Treat Injury +10, Use the Force +8

It is extreme, but it can be really powerful.  I am thinking about using something kind of like this for a new character in my game.  I am still torn between Force Wizard or something more Bond-villain-like.

I... don't understand, that entire post just confuses the hell out of me, how did you get all of your stats THAT low, I thought they all started at 8 and you couldn't take any out from those.

Also, how do you have 12 powers at level 1?
Whoops, sorry, I didn't copy the whole part I wanted from Word.

The ability score array is:

Strength 10, Dexterity 11, Constitution 9, Intelligence 11, Wisdom 17, Charisma 14 (28-points)

The guy is Near-Human, so he doesn't get an additional skill but he does get -2 Strength and +2 Wisdom (check Unknown Regions for rules on Near-Humans).

He is also Old, meaning he takes a -3 penalty to all physical abilities but gets a +2 to his mental abilities.  So, you end up with:

Strength 5, Dexterity 8, Constitution 6, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 21, Charisma 14

He is Near-Human, but still gets an extra Feat in addition to his normal level 1 Feat.  I spent both of those for Force Training twice, each giving 6 Powers for 12 powers in total.  I was planning on waiting for that bonus Feat at level 2 to get Skill Focus (Use the Force).

The last bit was that you should, if you can, choose the Education Destiny for that +5 to Use the Force whenever you complete it.

This is one way to make a Force Wizard incredibly effective at low levels.  Since you'd have a +14 UtF skill at level 2, you're powers are almost certain to work, and work to decent effect.  Twelve Powers give you enough to focus half your suite on defensive powers, a quarter on utility powers, and the last quarter on attack powers, and you will be deadly.  As you level this build up, the number of Force Powers can grow like crazy.  Get Force Training eight times, and eventually get Telekinetic Prodigy for the Move Object powers.  As I see it, you could easily be sitting on 72 Force Powers by level 18, but more importantly (since you won't reach that level, likely) you'll be able to come out of the gate with twelve powers and by level 6 have 32.
"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these
Well, that is damn impressive but it seems to be min-maxing, which is something I was hoping to avoid. I want my character to be good, don't get me wrong. I just don't want it to be completely flawed as a person.

Isn't there some happy medium, where I don't need str, dex, con, or int, and not be complete crap?
Sure, it just isn't as powerful.  Of course, that's the point, right?


Remove the age and Near-Human modifiers, then drop your Wisdom to 15 from 17.  Then you'll have Strength 10, Dexterity 11, Constitution 9, Intelligence 11, Wisdom 15, and Charisma 15; and you'll have five points left over.  I'd probably drop the Dexterity to 10, raise the Constitution to 14, and raise the Intelligence to 12, or maybe reverse the Dexterity and Constitution scores (better R-Def instead of HP).  That'll unfortunately drop your number of Force Powers down to only six, which is enough to be pretty effective if you don't overdo the defensive powers (save them for later).  Then, if you raise your Wisdom and Charisma every fuorth level, you'll still end up with 20 in each, which is fairly effective.  With Telekinetic Prodigy, that'll be 56 powers in total, which is still a god, strong Force Suite.  Plus you'll be able to tank some and not be totally ineffective with your lightsaber.
"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these
Ah! that's what i'm talking about, a more balanced "life like" character. I was thinking of going with ithorian, too. That would raise my wisdom and cha back up to 17.(or do you think human is better, in this case?)

Also, can you show me your math for the point bought attributes? My math seems off.

STR: 2 pt.
DEX: 2 pt.
CON: 2 pt.
INT: 2 pt.
WIS: 8 pt.
CHA: 8 pt.

Total=24 pt.

The other four I'd apply to either DEX or CON.  Then leveling up for the rest.

Going Ithorian isn't a bad idea, per se, but it will weaken you unnecessarily.  Wisdom is really only used for Force Powers, but that bonus Feat is also used for Force Powers.  If you get 20 Wisdom, the Human Feat, and Telekinetic Prodigy working with eight takes of Force Training, then you'll have 56 powers.  With 22 Wisdom and Telekinetic Prodigy with seven takes of Force Training you'll hae 56 Force Powers.  They look even, then, at level 20.  However, honestly, how often do you actually play until level 20?  It is all about percentages.  At level 1, being Ithorian means having one Force Training and being Human means having two.  If the Ithorian build only had 12 WIS while the Human one had only 10, then the two would be even.  Create your baseline, X Force Trainings and Y Powers per Force Training.  Multiply the two together, and you'll have you baseline number.  Being Human will increase X by one and being Ithorian will increase Y by one.  In almost every case, being Human is superior, especially with high-Wisdom, low-level characters.  See, the lower level you are, the smaller X will be, thus every +1 increase to X will be a higher percentage of increase - that Feat means more.  Similarly, the higher your Wisdom, the larger Y will be, thus every +1 to Y will be a lower percentage of increase.  So Force Wizards tend to be more powerful as Humans than as Ithorians.  The only species that can really beat them are the Caamasi, who get +4 Wisdom.  And I will say, if you don't really want that other skill from being Human, Caamasi are a pretty good choice.  I don't like their SQs much, but they do make good wizards.          

"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these

STR: 2 pt.
DEX: 2 pt.
CON: 2 pt.
INT: 2 pt.
WIS: 8 pt.
CHA: 8 pt.

Total=24 pt.

The other four I'd apply to either DEX or CON.  Then leveling up for the rest.

Going Ithorian isn't a bad idea, per se, but it will weaken you unnecessarily.  Wisdom is really only used for Force Powers, but that bonus Feat is also used for Force Powers.  If you get 20 Wisdom, the Human Feat, and Telekinetic Prodigy working with eight takes of Force Training, then you'll have 56 powers.  With 22 Wisdom and Telekinetic Prodigy with seven takes of Force Training you'll hae 56 Force Powers.  They look even, then, at level 20.  However, honestly, how often do you actually play until level 20?  It is all about percentages.  At level 1, being Ithorian means having one Force Training and being Human means having two.  If the Ithorian build only had 12 WIS while the Human one had only 10, then the two would be even.  Create your baseline, X Force Trainings and Y Powers per Force Training.  Multiply the two together, and you'll have you baseline number.  Being Human will increase X by one and being Ithorian will increase Y by one.  In almost every case, being Human is superior, especially with high-Wisdom, low-level characters.  See, the lower level you are, the smaller X will be, thus every +1 increase to X will be a higher percentage of increase - that Feat means more.  Similarly, the higher your Wisdom, the larger Y will be, thus every +1 to Y will be a lower percentage of increase.  So Force Wizards tend to be more powerful as Humans than as Ithorians.  The only species that can really beat them are the Caamasi, who get +4 Wisdom.  And I will say, if you don't really want that other skill from being Human, Caamasi are a pretty good choice.  I don't like their SQs much, but they do make good wizards.          


Hmm, very valid point about being human, I was just thinking that bellow would be a good last resort attack, plus everyone tends to play humans.

Anyway I think you've sold me on being human with your amazing inside and indept explanations. Thank you very much. I think I'll go with jedi as a starting class too, so I'm not squishy and have some viablity in combat and out.

What should I do for skills? being human and a jedi i would get 3 with 10 int, Use force is obvious, perception seems like a staple..but i'm not sure about the third, really.

Also, would you mind helping me build this character from level 1 up? I doubt i'll ever last in a game where I get far enough to be level 20, so fully planning it out isn't completely needed.

Of course I can help build the character from level 1.  More about the character would be helpful though.  What's his background, who did he train with?  What type of abilities do you tend to like or are useful in your group?  What direction do you think the campaign will go and what will you be fighting?

My general thoughts go Force Wizards:
- Spend every leve-based Feat on Force Training.  There really is no such thing as too many Force Powers.
- Look to enter both Jedi Master and Force Adapt.  Some poeple tend to choose between Jedi or Force Adept, but both offer a lot.  This means that you'll want to get three Force Talents done early, which is fine, Force Talents are awesome.  Remember that Jedi Master does not require Jedi Knight, although Jedi Knight isn't a bad class.  There is even a Talent that'll let you use your Use the Force skill in place of all Knowledge checks, which is a killer Talent.
- If possible, try and work a different Force Tradition into your backstory.  This doesn't even need to be one of the approved ones (make up your own, then just use the Talents of one approved one).  Since Force Traditions tend to focus on one particular power-set, this can really help.  Telekinetics can pick Zeison Sha while min controllers can use Fallanassi.  The Aing-Tii Monks is another one for a really "alien" idea of the Force.
- For Talents, look for those that give you Force Points.  The best of these is Channel Vitality from Force Adept, but if you have something like DR 10 or Equilibrium (a Force Talent that costs a Force Point to use) Force Harmony is a good choice as well.  You should also decide how you feel about the skill substitution Talents (Force Pilot or Force Intuition, for instance).  I  love them, but others don't. 
- Force Secrets are worthless for the most part, but Force Techniques are pure awesome.  Get as many Force Techniques as you can.  I always find that I must have at least four, but five or six is even better.  Force Point Recovery is, of course, the best one, but some of the others are great too.  And it is always nice to be able to improve your favorite powers.

"And the TL;DR award goes to Raul Torin!" - CorranHornIsAwesome Official SAGA Edition Errata Dawn of Defiance Other Articles Thanks to GreySword for compiling these
As I mentioned it before, I reiterate the pure awesome of Channel Vitality for a Force wizard sort.  It has the side effect of bringing value to the Force Secrets, though the one I REALLY like is Quicken Power.  With Channel Vitality you can use 2 offensive Force powers.  Ideally, you're throwing 2 Force Lightnings per round for a whopping 16d6 damage and a guaranteed -2 CT.  Alternatively you can Grip somebody and maintain it one round to the next while pouring lightning into the helpless sap.  I give it 2 thumbs up for coolness, and with Many Shades of the Force you can do it without getting your dark side score increased.

You can also maintain Force Shield as a standard action, but doing so normally keeps you from contributing much to the battle.  Enter Quicken Force.  You can quicken one of your offensive powers so you can use it at the same time as maintaining Force Shield.  Of course, Force Shield can be used as a reaction, so you may prefer to just use it for one shot DR, which it is certainly good at.

I do want to add a minor caveat to the sentiment that EVERY character feat be spent on Force Training.  Generally, this is a good idea, but it isn't absolute and you may want to spend one of these on Force Regimen Mastery.  A few of the Regimens are pretty useful, and you never know when you might spot a stray feat that's helpful.

Also, I'm curious what the basis for this character is.  Is it a Jedi or just a force user?  Why does he/she shun the lightsaber?  Of course, character goals and history are important for what motivates the character.
Hmm thanks for the awesome feed back, guys. I think I'll work on my character a bit more and see what I can muster up myself. What are the staple force powers I should go for?

As for my story? Hmm, Its really rough, basic idea. I was hoping to flesh it out more during a game but basically..

My character would be a somewhat young jedi, either mid or late 20's, After finishing his training he would basically set out on an adventure, trying to learn more about the force.

The basic idea is that he believes what the Jedi teach is very important but he can't help but feel that its a bit bia's considering they basically work for the republic...plus they teach nothing about the darkside besides that "Its bad, don't do it" which leaves many things to be questioned...Like, why do so many go to the dark side if its so bad? Why is the "dark side" so evil? etc.

Don't get me wrong, he doesn't want to join the dark side...just believes that..Light and dark part of the same "Force" and wants to learn the whole story.

Again its a really unrefined idea but I think its enough to start him off and see what happens. What do you think?
Its a rough start, but it should get you started.  After all, its hard to be thorough without the context of the campaign to work with, which you don't have.  One thing remains, though, and I think it's pretty significant.  Why does he shun the use of the lightsaber?  Did he leave the Order and have it confiscated or does he simply not use his lightsaber?

As for staple powers, I think it been covered reasonably well already.  All that really is left is narrowing it down to make it work for the character.
oh, shun the light saber? Hmm, I'm not really should I would call it that..I mean it has its uses. I guess he just prefers the "Mind over Matter" method. Plus, I plan on playing him kind of like a jedi master...the type that prefers to watch, listen, and wait before attacking. Trying to make a point of resolving things without bloodshed when it isn't needed.

Also, I worked on my character a bit, here it is.

www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheet...

i was thinking..of dropping cha down to 14, then wis up to 16. The only thing that will change is wis will get +1 score and i'd get 2 more powers.
Oh... I got confused.  Noticed several problems until I realized that the character isn't Ithorian (as the title suggests).  I think it looks pretty good.  The 15s aren't a bad thing if you're going to level 20 since you get 5 ability bonuses in your career, which would bring it to an even number at level 20.  If you don't think you'll get to level 20 or you are impatient, you could drop Dex to 8 so you can start with a 16 Wisdom.  I don't think it'd make much difference in your Reflex, and a 10 isn't spectacular as it is.  Just food for thought.  Really, I think it is fine as is.

Your power selection is pretty solid.  Depending on the setting I might swap out Surge for Rebuke in case you encounter an enemy Force user.  Surge is nice, but it isn't something you just can't live without.

All in all, I think its looking pretty good.

PS: I think your defenses are all 1 point too low to account for your level bonus which should be 1, not 0.
Oh... I got confused.  Noticed several problems until I realized that the character isn't Ithorian (as the title suggests).  I think it looks pretty good.  The 15s aren't a bad thing if you're going to level 20 since you get 5 ability bonuses in your career, which would bring it to an even number at level 20.  If you don't think you'll get to level 20 or you are impatient, you could drop Dex to 8 so you can start with a 16 Wisdom.  I don't think it'd make much difference in your Reflex, and a 10 isn't spectacular as it is.  Just food for thought.  Really, I think it is fine as is.

Your power selection is pretty solid.  Depending on the setting I might swap out Surge for Rebuke in case you encounter an enemy Force user.  Surge is nice, but it isn't something you just can't live without.

All in all, I think its looking pretty good.

PS: I think your defenses are all 1 point too low to account for your level bonus which should be 1, not 0.

Yeah, sorry about the title. I originally planed to make it an ithorian but went with human instead.

As for the stats, I've never been in a game where I got all the way to level 10 (mostly since its once a month, or games simply don't last long) so while a longterm plan is great, I'm not sure how likely it is to happen. Plus can't I get items and boosts that give me increased stats, too?

Also, the reason I didn't go for rebuke was because I didn't think we would be fighting dark jedi at such a low level.


As for the stats, I've never been in a game where I got all the way to level 10 (mostly since its once a month, or games simply don't last long) so while a longterm plan is great, I'm not sure how likely it is to happen. Plus can't I get items and boosts that give me increased stats, too?

This is Saga, there are very few ways to bost your stats, at least unless you are a droid! There are some armors that grant a bonus to strength and new ways to move (flight or swim speed), and that is about it!

20801.jpg

hmm, maybe i played too much kotor, my mistake. Hmm, So i would be better off with 15,15? even if it meant less powers?
As for the stats, I've never been in a game where I got all the way to level 10 (mostly since its once a month, or games simply don't last long) so while a longterm plan is great, I'm not sure how likely it is to happen. Plus can't I get items and boosts that give me increased stats, too?

This is Saga, there are very few ways to bost your stats, at least unless you are a droid! There are some armors that grant a bonus to strength and new ways to move (flight or swim speed), and that is about it!

Completing a Destiny can grant a Destiny Bonus to an ability score but they tend to top out at +2.

There may be things that can replicate some of the things an ablity increase would do but these aren't ability increases and most of them will involve the physical stats. 

Of course, there is the Education Destiny which boosts a choice skill by +5.  To a Force user, that is virtually a whopping +10 Charisma.
Of course, there is the Education Destiny which boosts a choice skill by +5.  To a Force user, that is virtually a whopping +10 Charisma.

Well to a Jedi and other force-users that usually means training an apprentice to knighthod or the equivialent. That means at least level 7 or 8 for the apprentice, and usually level 9 or more for the master. So not before level 9 or 10 as I see it.
One other reason for a GM not to let this happen too early is the gamebraking effect it can have on lower levels...

Completing a Destiny can grant a Destiny Bonus to an ability score but they tend to top out at +2.

Sure, but that should not happen on too low level. Corruption and Destruction are the two Destinys that could be compleated at low level, and Corruption does not feel right for PC's most of the time. Redemption is a mid level or higher Destiny and Champion should be high level only. Of course this is my highly personal point of view, but there should be few and far between a low level character becoming the leader of a significant organisation and leading lead it through an extremely threatening event (Champion Destiny). Of course if and when it do happen it could be a very heroic event!

20801.jpg

I agree on most points, though I contend the "Champion" destiny being reserved for high level characters.  Sometimes an organization can rally behind a low level character if a) the organization is relatively minor or b) the character does something spectacular or extraordinary that warrants a lot of respect, regardless of that character's level.

Generally, you are correct, but I thought I'd throw out a couple of exceptions to keep in mind.