4e and Pun Pun :D

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I was reading over the pun-pun thread and I am surprised that a pun-pun hasn't been created for 4th edition.


I was wanting to know is this because he simply cannot exist due to the fact that 4th edition is too balanced, or nobody has the interest in recreating the little bugger.


  
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I was just reading about LordDuskBlade, and I believe if anyone could create Pun-Pun, he could.
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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both instinctive and emotional. I value my own instincts and desires, and either ignore or crush anything that stands in my way; planning and foresight are unnecessary. At best, I'm determined and fierce; at worst, I'm headstrong and infantile.


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I would call that a case of giving me too much credit.

One of the unspoken but certainly implied design goals of 4e is that Pun-Pun (or any of the similar builds) doesn't happen again.
I was just reading about LordDuskBlade, and I believe if anyone could create Pun-Pun, he could.



The crux of Pun-Pun, as I remember it, was the existence of the mechanic for Divine Ranks and Wishes.  Nothing of the sort exists in 4e.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Can someone explain the Pun-Pun to me? I only have experience with 4e, and I have to admit I am very intrigued :D
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111819409 wrote:
99856009 wrote:
by RAW, you can't horse into the forge of the dawn titan.




...Couldn't resist.


Pun pun hinged on the fact that there was a creature in the game that could give any creature in the game any other power in the game from anything.

Why a creature that could do that needed to be statted out is beyond the realms of common ken. The mere fact that such a creature existed broke the game, pun pun merely made it possible to do as a player.
Pun-pun is relative (think on that Einstein!).

You can get together a new bunch of players who make characters and play the game with a new DM. They get up to 12th level, and are having a blast in their cloistered group. Then an experienced player who knows about all the charop tricks joins the group. Well, there is certainly a chance that new player's character will feel like Pun-pun to the newbie players.

Essentials does a good job of "protecting" against poor choices. But you can definitely make poor choices during character creation and leveling up if you're in that cloistered group, and don't realize how the game math works, don't realize expectations of the system, etc.

Even in LFR, I've seen 2 first level characters side by side, one person had an eladrin fey warlock with +3 vs Reflex attacks pretty much across the board (before eladrins got their optional stat bump to Charisma). The other was a human rogue with a +10 vs reflex attack, +12 with frequent CA. The warlock's player goes "dude, how are you doing that, your attack bonus is like 4 times mine?" Later he saw the rogue's 32 hit points, and goes, "You have like 8 more hit points than me? And that's like 4 more points than the dwarf fighter over there. How are you doing that?" The rogue player was politely answering but otherwise staying quiet and starting to feel bad, while others at the table were trying to explain that this is normal. And at one point the eladrin's player realized he was rolling 2d6+3 for damage, and the rogue was rolling something like 1d4+2d8+9. When he heard the +9, I thought he was going to either throttle the rogue's player or tear up his character sheet and leave, an uncomfortable moment to say the least.

So Pun-pun doesn't exist in his old form, but when lack of system mastery meets expertise in system mastery, you may get a similar effect.
So essentially Pun-Pun was a super 4th edition Half-Elf with Super Dilettante, that he can also bestow upon other PCs if he so chooses.  Cool. :P  Glad Half-Elves arn't really like that. I think they're great just as they are, however :D Yay Helves!
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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both instinctive and emotional. I value my own instincts and desires, and either ignore or crush anything that stands in my way; planning and foresight are unnecessary. At best, I'm determined and fierce; at worst, I'm headstrong and infantile.


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

It's amazing how many  threads these days end up with some remark linking LDB with godlike powers OUTSIDE of the...thread that will not be named Wink
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So essentially Pun-Pun was a super 4th edition Half-Elf with Super Dilettante, that he can also bestow upon other PCs if he so chooses.  Cool. :P  Glad Half-Elves arn't really like that. I think they're great just as they are, however :D Yay Helves!



Well, the Ability wasn't just for powers, it also permanently altered stats. :P

Yea, that's pretty broken. I'm pretty thankful nothing like this exists in 4th edition.

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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both instinctive and emotional. I value my own instincts and desires, and either ignore or crush anything that stands in my way; planning and foresight are unnecessary. At best, I'm determined and fierce; at worst, I'm headstrong and infantile.


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

You could get an arbitrarily high anything with that build.  Set all your ability scores to whatever you want.

A random list traits pun-pun can acquire:

- no penalty for fighting with two weapons
- blindsense
- immunity to acid, cold, fire, lightning (might be one for sonic, I'd have to look harder)
- earth glide
- all-around vision
- invisibility
- immunity to magic
- destroy weapons that touch you
- regeneration

and that's just extraordinary abilities.  Really, the sarrukh and its ability Manipulate Form are the culprits here.  That effect was designed with no meaningful limitations whatsoever.
Also, the ability to go first when you roll initiative. He doesn't roll, he go first period.

No spell resistance, no resistances or immunities, every spell of every level and iirc also limitless supernatural abilities.
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Really, the way Manipulate Form was worded also allowed Pun-Pun to grant powers that weren't in the books.  So, basically, not nice. Innocent
What Eisenritter said.  The ability to grant himself any ability written anywhere in the edition is powerful.  Granting arbitrary levels of any stat he wants is impressive.  But there are other characters who can do that, for the most part.

Pun-pun the kobold had all this, and he had the ability to grant himself any ability he could conceive of.
If you come up with a way to defeat Pun-pun, he simply gives himself the ability to not be defeated that way.

"I Win (Su): Pun-pun wins.  Forever."  <--perfectly rules-legal to give himself this ability.


As far as who would be able to create 4e pun-pun if it were possible (it's not), I'd like to point out that Khan the Destroyer, creator of pun-pun, is a contributor to the 4e forums as well :P
Yes, but I think we all know that LordDuskBlade is more powerful than Khan The Destroyer. I have not seen the elusive Khan, yet LDB is a shining symbol to all!
I am Red/Green
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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both instinctive and emotional. I value my own instincts and desires, and either ignore or crush anything that stands in my way; planning and foresight are unnecessary. At best, I'm determined and fierce; at worst, I'm headstrong and infantile.


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

Damon_Tor came pretty close for a while, producing a few infinite damage builds. These unfortunately led to the most inelegant errata ever, which broke more than it fixed.

Pun Pun will not rise again, lest he bring destruction down upon the very ruleset which supported him, breaking the normal aspects of everyone else's game as he does so. 

Laz 
I was reading over the pun-pun thread and I am surprised that a pun-pun hasn't been created for 4th edition.

Read Voldemonte in my .sig, you'll be entertained if you liked Pun-Pun.

She can't take damage, be affected by any effect, or even be killed. She can basically kill anything that doesn't just run away from her and her snake.

As I recall we had the Apocalypse Twins for a while. Those guys were, if not total Pun-Puns by autowinning fights, then very close to it.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
I've come up with an infinite action loop, which is currently rules legal (lvl 30, requires a lvl 30 ally).
And there's infinitely increasing defenses (raven consort...).

But that's still no where near pun-pun level.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Yes, but I think we all know that LordDuskBlade is more powerful than Khan The Destroyer. I have not seen the elusive Khan, yet LDB is a shining symbol to all!


Dammit Ravinsild! Now I have to create a 4th edition Pun-Pun and wipe out all of LDB's nova builds just to prove a point.

And the summer was just getting started too...
It's just not possible, 4e is nowhere near the same power level that 3.x was at in terms of permanate gains to characters.  Infinite actions is possible, and thus anything that can be done at-will (thanks to Archmage and Academy Master shenanigans, you can even get infinite uses of a daily's miss or effect lines) is possibly infinite (Attacks, Damage, Healing, THP, Saving Throws, Movement, and stackable bonuses to those).  But none of that beats pun pun, who has "Heads I win, Tails you lose (su): Flip a coin, if it's heads or tails, the target Dies and can't come back to life by any means."
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
"Heads I win, Tails you lose (su): Flip a coin, if it's heads or tails, the target is annihilated and can't reexist by any means."


Fixed that for ya ;)
The real issue with Pun-Pun was the oddity that was Polymorph (or other spells and psionic powers that are similar). There were certain spells and class features in 1e-3.5e whose power grew passively whenever a new book was released. Metamorphosis (the psionic polymorph) let you turn into any creature that existed in any sourcebook, anywhere. There was a feat that let you use the special abilities of that form. Meaning: any time a new creature with an interesting special ability was released, you got a new power. There were no clear mechanics on how you could "know" a particular polymorphic form, either.

Another interesting situation was the Wizard and Archivist. Both could learn an arbitrary number of spells known, and the Archivist in particular could abuse this pretty effectively. But whenever a new random sourcebook was released, there was new material inherently for your wizard. Whenever some  designer created a special domain for their evil cleric of an obscure god (*cough* force domain?) the Archivist chuckled and grew.

Of course, those spells and abilities tend to pre-date the "release all the time!" mentality of Hasbro-WotC. In the good old days (get off my lawn!) people didn't think about how wierd abilities would (a) interact and (b) change with future releases. They also didn't have a monthly service fee to get people to choke down, so they tended not to release errata like D&D was actually a video game.

Ah, those were the days. I mean, nigh-infinite damage loops are great and all, but the theoretical optimization of 3.5e also had great questions like, "How many XP do you get for destroying the world?" (A: all of them) and "What's the Escape Artist DC for crawling up somebody's bunghole?" (A: high enough that when you did, you could use the feature of the Exemplar class to turn everyone who saw you doing that into devoted followers). You could even make a fortune selling ten-foot-poles (which were worth more individually than a 10' ladder, do the math).

Anyway, reminiscing is fun.
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There's two different "ends" of Pun-pun for 4e.

The one is from the 3.5e side of things: Pun-pun was stronger than all of the 3.5e Deities. These deities were rather largely Nerfed by the Spellplague. How much was Pun-pun nerfed? It's not a real rhetorical question. Pun-pun could not have been nerfed by much, if at all. Most of the changes in 4e from previous editions, would impact Pun-pun not a bit.

The other is from the 4e side of things: Sarrukh exist in 4e. That's the major part of the original infinite power up. 4e Sarrukh's have Rituals that do near, at, or above DM Fiat things. But it's undefined. There is an EpicD that also has uncapped Ritual language. The Master Of Moments assumes that higher level rituals exist, that the MoM can find or get access to. This forces a DM into Fiat mode. Dm has to say something. That might be Yes. That might be No. Not much else does this.

So ... 4e Pun-pun is at or near DM Fiat level of power.
But we have very limited fluff text, and even less crunch text, to explain what this is.



Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

What is this ... cat-nip for my Kitty Avatar ?!




There's two different "ends" of Pun-pun for 4e.

The one is from the 3.5e side of things: Pun-pun was stronger than all of the 3.5e Deities. These deities were rather largely Nerfed by the Spellplague. How much was Pun-pun nerfed? It's not a real rhetorical question. Pun-pun could not have been nerfed by much, if at all. Most of the changes in 4e from previous editions, would impact Pun-pun not a bit.

The other is from the 4e side of things: Sarrukh exist in 4e. That's the major part of the original infinite power up. 4e Sarrukh's have Rituals that do near, at, or above DM Fiat things. But it's undefined. There is an EpicD that also has uncapped Ritual language. The Master Of Moments assumes that higher level rituals exist, that the MoM can find or get access to. This forces a DM into Fiat mode. Dm has to say something. That might be Yes. That might be No. Not much else does this.

So ... 4e Pun-pun is at or near DM Fiat level of power.
But we have very limited fluff text, and even less crunch text, to explain what this is.






I literally have no idea what any of this means, and it kind of scares me. 
I am Red/Green
I am Red/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both instinctive and emotional. I value my own instincts and desires, and either ignore or crush anything that stands in my way; planning and foresight are unnecessary. At best, I'm determined and fierce; at worst, I'm headstrong and infantile.


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

Can someone explain the Pun-Pun to me? I only have experience with 4e, and I have to admit I am very intrigued :D




community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
What is this ... cat-nip for my Kitty Avatar ?!




There's two different "ends" of Pun-pun for 4e.

The one is from the 3.5e side of things: Pun-pun was stronger than all of the 3.5e Deities. These deities were rather largely Nerfed by the Spellplague. How much was Pun-pun nerfed? It's not a real rhetorical question. Pun-pun could not have been nerfed by much, if at all. Most of the changes in 4e from previous editions, would impact Pun-pun not a bit.

The other is from the 4e side of things: Sarrukh exist in 4e. That's the major part of the original infinite power up. 4e Sarrukh's have Rituals that do near, at, or above DM Fiat things. But it's undefined. There is an EpicD that also has uncapped Ritual language. The Master Of Moments assumes that higher level rituals exist, that the MoM can find or get access to. This forces a DM into Fiat mode. Dm has to say something. That might be Yes. That might be No. Not much else does this.

So ... 4e Pun-pun is at or near DM Fiat level of power.
But we have very limited fluff text, and even less crunch text, to explain what this is.

I literally have no idea what any of this means, and it kind of scares me.

He's.... a bit hard to understand.  Don't take it personally.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Well I don't know what this Higher Level Ritual thing is, the Master of Moments eludes me, I've never known what a Sarrukh is, and I don't know what a DM Fiat is, but it sounds like something a DM can do that's all powerful in the game.  Sarrukh honestly just reminds me of a green scaley fish man thing, like the Final Fantasy Sahaugin.
I am Red/Green
I am Red/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both instinctive and emotional. I value my own instincts and desires, and either ignore or crush anything that stands in my way; planning and foresight are unnecessary. At best, I'm determined and fierce; at worst, I'm headstrong and infantile.


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

I don't know what a DM Fiat is, but it sounds like something a DM can do that's all powerful in the game.



DM fiat is when a DM makes something true in his game by saying it is true, without any outside source (such as a rulebook or fluffbook) saying it is true.

For example, I recently ran a game set in Evereska. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide says that Evereska has a mythal that allows citizens and visitors to walk on vertical surfaces. That's cool and all, but I wanted to take it another step further. So I declared that for this session at least, in Evereska you can as part of a Stand Up action or after completing a square of movement, arbitrarily change which direction is 'down' for you. Also, the mythal has a universal featherfall effect, which I ruled as meaning you take at most 2d10 falling damage no matter how far you fall, and fall at most 50' during a turn instead of 100'.

All of these things were true for that session due to DM fiat. And a great time was had by all. But no, a PC cannot gain the ability to create a zone of subjective gravity when and where they want it. And when some other DM runs a game in Evereska, there's nothing saying they have to treat the mythal's effects the same way.   
So I DM Fiat when I say there are Shardminds, Wilden, and Githzerai and Drow in my Dark Sun Campaign although they are not specifically mentioned in the Dark Sun campaign manual, and I think in some cases they might even be stated to be specifically extinct? :O Cool :D
I am Red/Green
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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both instinctive and emotional. I value my own instincts and desires, and either ignore or crush anything that stands in my way; planning and foresight are unnecessary. At best, I'm determined and fierce; at worst, I'm headstrong and infantile.


D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium

Fiat: an authoritative decree, sanction, or order: a royal fiat. (Dictionary).  So yeah, basically when the DM simply makes something so because they have absolute authority.  DM Fiat is not a bad thing by itself- it allows you to make really interesting environments, allow things that are not in source material but are fun and balanced, or in some cases, resolve things that either make no sense or are broken.  It can of course be abused by simply being an authoritarian dictator, but such is the problem of co-operative experiences- someone can ruin them by not playing nicely.

As to pun-pun: nothing in 4e of any level could ever be as strong as pun-pun was at level 1 shy of them releasing a feat that said "You can do anything everywhere instantly always".  Even things at level 30 that literally can never die ever, or are untargetable, or whatever are still infinitely less powerful than pun-pun was. 

Pun-pun was one of the three best examples of how arbitrary/unbalanced/silly some of the rules in 3.x were.  The other example is the weasel that can kill any town of commoners, or the housecats that can kill wizards.  There were crazy silly circumstances like that on both ends of the spectrum.
A note to all who think I am being aggressive or angry- 99% of the time, I do not intend to be. I apologize if you think I am attacking you, odds are very strong that I am not. The only exceptions are when people become extremely uncivil to me, and even then I usually ignore them. I think it is very obvious when I am really mad; if I just seem generally abrasive, it is a reflection of my thought process rather than a state of emotion. I have the greatest respect for those who can debate rationally, even if we come to different conclusions. I am Blue/White
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Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
Another example would be the 4e version of The H.I.V.E.

Pick up the DMG2.
Read the whole thing, until you get to the Cranium Rats entry.
And stop.
Pick up the DMG.
Read the whole thing, until you get to the Monsters can be + or - , up to 5 levels entry.
And stop.
Pick up the DMG2.
Re-read the Cranium Rats entry, knowing you want to reduce the level of each Rat "Unit" by 5 levels.
And stop.
Re-pick up the DMG.
Figure out how to do a level 37 Encounter. Specifically how much Experience points are necessary.
Figure out how many exp the (Rat "Unit" - 5 levels) is worth.
Calculate (level 37 encounter Exp) divided by (Rat "unit" -5 level exp) ... Surprised


That's how many Cranium Rats there are in a level 37 encounter.
Side bar --- you could make a level 38 encounter, but expect some whining about that.
Now re-read the Cranium Rat entry, looking specifically at the nifty little
Rats Love Rats power ... the one that makes it's intelligence go up.
(note - Rats Love Rats is not the official name for the power)


So right there is the record:
(1) ... Int. number
(2) ... attack number
(3) ... non-infinity damage number
(4) ... Int Skills check numbers

(5) ... throw in a class template on one of the rat units, and get other weird things going on
(5a) ... especially any Utility power that uses a Int based modifier


Obviously, somebody on the design team likes The H.I.V.E. more than they like the Sarrukh.
(evil grin)

But the Sarrukh get DM Fiat, so ... shucks I'll go home now ... Cry

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

*snip*


Only so long as you can get an epic character surrounded by them instantly, though leaving them at the bottom of a pit trap might work (so long as it triggers on initiative so the rats can have a readied action up). Or make a few of them warlords, and reorient the axis to give an intelligence modifier shift in close burst 5 (with another levelled up rat swarm with the U22 Quickening Order so that they win initiative, though this does require levelling that swarm up more than 5) 
Also note:  "A swarm can occupy the same space as another creature", so feel free to pile them up a bit (not all in the same square, don't want to give the wizard too much of an easy time of clearing them) so that they're not limited to +440/+440 each. Since you still get missed on nat 1s, you should still have 35 or so left even if the wizard does burst the lot of them.


"I am the seeker, I am the stalker, I am the walrus"