Can We Just Call It 4.5 and Reprint Core Books?

59 posts / 0 new
Last post
Instead of having Class Compendium articles or Bestiary bits reworking the Monster Manual critters with the MM3 format, can we just call Essentials 4.5 and be done with it? Reprint the Core books and have them updated with all the changes brought on by E and the latest DDI articles.

At least 3.5 reprinted the damn books without having online errata, in a 100 page volume, added to it.

Or if Wizards is going to treat D&D like an MMO, with the continual errata updates (just like WoW does), then at least offer the books in a PDF format so it will automatically be updated for me.
I, for one, would like to avoid having to purchase a new book every time previously printed content is updated and/or errated.  The compendium is a better solution, IMHO.  And good God, the search...

As to PDFs, I would like to see them return as well, but I doubt that WotC would be willing to front the publication costs of a new PDF as often as you seem to be implying.  I also don't understand how such PDFs would be automatically updated for you.  Wouldn't any update of a PDF document on WotC's part require a download on your part?
Combine Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms into a harcover and I'd buy that at the regular hardcover prices.

Won't buy: Class Compendium (oh wait it got cancelled anyway ... hopefully the upd45es stay free!)

Did buy: DM kit (for the module.  Yes, I'm dumb)
Did buy: Monster Vault (probably the best product I've seen post Dark Sun)

Yes, I'm dumb



No you're not. The module, tokens and poster maps in that kit are rad. I actually gave the book away and kept all the stuff.  
dm kit was killer
Instead of having Class Compendium articles or Bestiary bits reworking the Monster Manual critters with the MM3 format, can we just call Essentials 4.5 and be done with it? Reprint the Core books and have them updated with all the changes brought on by E and the latest DDI articles.

At least 3.5 reprinted the damn books without having online errata, in a 100 page volume, added to it.





+1

Hametsuj, I don't think Hunterian wants the books printed/modified every time there is new errata - errata (at some point) should be minor (i.e., an unclear sentence here, a typo there), as opposed to epic re-writes...

EDIT: PDFs can be updated and dispensed without charge once the initial purchase is made...plenty of smaller publishers work like this. I have no illusions that WOTC would be able to do this though.
--- -S. My campaign wiki: http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/noble-house


D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium

Did buy: DM kit (for the module.  Yes, I'm dumb)





I'm getting a lot of mileage out of that module (though changed significantly) and the tokens/maps. The book, not as much, but still usable as I refer to it instead of the original DMG 1 now. Not a dumb purchase in my book - I've made worse (Strategy Guide anyone?).
--- -S. My campaign wiki: http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaigns/noble-house


D&D Home Page - What Monster Are You? - D&D Compendium

Instead of having Class Compendium articles or Bestiary bits reworking the Monster Manual critters with the MM3 format, can we just call Essentials 4.5 and be done with it? Reprint the Core books and have them updated with all the changes brought on by E and the latest DDI articles. At least 3.5 reprinted the damn books without having online errata, in a 100 page volume, added to it. Or if Wizards is going to treat D&D like an MMO, with the continual errata updates (just like WoW does), then at least offer the books in a PDF format so it will automatically be updated for me.



I'm down. Hell, if they just said "**** it, let's go for 5!" I'd still be down. Haven't bought any D&D books in a while; kinda feelin' the urge.
Correct. I do not have the expectation for a new book to be reprinted with each errata. However, the PHB, and to a lesser extent, the MM, have been updated way too many times. It's time for a new print run of this STAPLE book, one that has been around since 1st edition.

I have a good feeling that 5th will be all digital except for the three core books and oddities. Due to the current state of the online digital aspect of DDI I think 5th is at least three years away.
Correct. I do not have the expectation for a new book to be reprinted with each errata. However, the PHB, and to a lesser extent, the MM, have been updated way too many times. It's time for a new print run of this STAPLE book, one that has been around since 1st edition. I have a good feeling that 5th will be all digital except for the three core books and oddities. Due to the current state of the online digital aspect of DDI I think 5th is at least three years away.



5th is probably a good ways off yet, yeah. I just wouldn't blink if they said "5E comes out tomorrow." I've finally reached that Zen "I have no expectations whatsoever" state that people always claim is the proper state of spiritual creaminess one should be in to be a DDI subscriber.

It's pleasant here, I will give them that.
I'd prefer them to break down and do a 4.5 at this point, just to clean things up. It's such a mess now.
Combine Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms into a harcover and I'd buy that at the regular hardcover prices.



Here too. Easier to use then to refrence across two books if I want to make (say, a crazy idea) an elven ranger, for example, or a half-orc slayer... I suggested this months ago, but I've been away for a bit and I'm sure it's buried.
No one wins in the Edition Wars. The whole hobby loses. Wizards did not lose me as a DDI subscriber with the Online CB, they lost me long before that. And I have let my Herald Level GM Status lapse after 8 years. Wizards lack of support and the Edition Wars Trolls that are poorly moderated just managed to take all the fun out of public events. ~~ KT
If they do continue to print copies of the PH1 after the CC articles have run their course, let's hope they will be labeled as the "Revised Player's Handbook I."

On the other hand, I'm not sure what the point would be. Considering how much cheaper it is to just buy a 'Heroes' book and print out the relevant CC article (or the part of it you're going to use), they really could just let the old Player's Handbook style die.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
I've finally reached that Zen "I have no expectations whatsoever" state that people always claim is the proper state of spiritual creaminess one should be in to be a DDI subscriber.

Luck you!  Now's a perfect time to resubscribe then. ;)
Correct. I do not have the expectation for a new book to be reprinted with each errata. However, the PHB, and to a lesser extent, the MM, have been updated way too many times. It's time for a new print run of this STAPLE book, one that has been around since 1st edition. I have a good feeling that 5th will be all digital except for the three core books and oddities. Due to the current state of the online digital aspect of DDI I think 5th is at least three years away.



5th is probably a good ways off yet, yeah. I just wouldn't blink if they said "5E comes out tomorrow." I've finally reached that Zen "I have no expectations whatsoever" state that people always claim is the proper state of spiritual creaminess one should be in to be a DDI subscriber.

It's pleasant here, I will give them that.



Welcome to the club. We have kool-aid.
Correct. I do not have the expectation for a new book to be reprinted with each errata. However, the PHB, and to a lesser extent, the MM, have been updated way too many times. It's time for a new print run of this STAPLE book, one that has been around since 1st edition. I have a good feeling that 5th will be all digital except for the three core books and oddities. Due to the current state of the online digital aspect of DDI I think 5th is at least three years away.



5th is probably a good ways off yet, yeah. I just wouldn't blink if they said "5E comes out tomorrow." I've finally reached that Zen "I have no expectations whatsoever" state that people always claim is the proper state of spiritual creaminess one should be in to be a DDI subscriber.

It's pleasant here, I will give them that.



Welcome to the club. We have kool-aid.



And cake!
I'd prefer them to break down and do a 4.5 at this point, just to clean things up. It's such a mess now.

Especially since WotC has a hard enough time keeping all of the errata in the same place.  The rules updates archive doesn't even include all the rules updates.
It seems the way of things that they start clean and fast and simple, and by the time 3 years go by the thing is rules lawyered into a complete mess again.

I'd vote for a 4.5 re-release... especially since I only own a couple books so far. Laughing

You may know ALL the rules, but I KNOW the Spirit of the Game.

I'd prefer them to break down and do a 4.5 at this point, just to clean things up. It's such a mess now.



Not a bad idea Sam. I doubt Wizards would go for it though, they really seem to be pushing DDI and online content, while trying to keep down printing costs.

However, maybe this is the perfect opportunity to bring up the dreaded "P" word as a suggestion...PDFs!


"You got your Essentials in my 4E!" "Well, you got your 4E in my Essentials!"
I want them to re-print the DMG 1 with all errata now. I'm not entirely sure where to go so I can design monsters at the moment. Though it would seriously very nice if they actually did print what is essentially (no pun intended) a class compendium and race compendium for the new updates. 
I've finally reached that Zen "I have no expectations whatsoever" state that people always claim is the proper state of spiritual creaminess one should be in to be a DDI subscriber.

Luck you!  Now's a perfect time to resubscribe then. ;)




Let's not get ahead of ourselves, now.
In theory, at least, the way they're ruining D&D this time around is a bit less egregious.  Instead of 'forcing' everyone to re-buy books, they're changing existing books around via updates.  That's sacrificing a potential revenue source from non-pissed-off-fans in the hope of pissing off fewer fans and so still being able to sell them something.

It's a good tactic, but ignores the more basic strategy of continuing to produce product that doesn't suck...

Want to see the best of 4e included in 5e?  Join the Old Guard of 4e.

5e really needs something like Wrecan's SARN-FU to support "Theatre of the Mind."

"You want The Tooth?  You can't handle The Tooth!"  - Dahlver-Nar.

"If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly"  - E. Gary Gygax

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

I think Wizards needs to re-release the core rulebooks with all the updated changes as well. I never really understood the change over to Essentials as a gateway product for lapsed gamers. The Player's Handbook is familiar and has been a known product for decades. Surely Wizards could use it to bring in new players.

Of course, if Wizards did release an updated version of the core books, I'd be most happy if they stop with all the errata. But I doubt that is going to happen.
Combine Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms into a harcover and I'd buy that at the regular hardcover prices.

Won't buy: Class Compendium (oh wait it got cancelled anyway ... hopefully the upd45es stay free!)

Did buy: DM kit (for the module.  Yes, I'm dumb)
Did buy: Monster Vault (probably the best product I've seen post Dark Sun)




It seems the way of things that they start clean and fast and simple, and by the time 3 years go by the thing is rules lawyered into a complete mess again.

I'd vote for a 4.5 re-release... especially since I only own a couple books so far.



Except 3-6 months after release we'd be in this same place again with all the damned erratta.  I would be all for a republish and new edition if WoTC can pick a direction, stick with it, finalize the game, print it right the first time, and then leave it alone instead of making all of us pay to beta test the game for them and turning our books into expensive trash.  I told myself when they released Essentials, their "Evergreen" line, that this was their second chance from me, but if those books became erratta fests I wouldn't buy another book from them again, and I won't.


Except 3-6 months after release we'd be in this same place again with all the damned erratta.  I would be all for a republish and new edition if WoTC can pick a direction, stick with it, finalize the game, print it right the first time, and then leave it alone instead of making all of us pay to beta test the game for them and turning our books into expensive trash.



This...this and more this.

Whenever WotC chooses to publish a new version of D&D I hope they actually take the time to playtest and thoughtfully plot out three to five years worth of material prior to printing the initial books.





Welcome to the club. We have kool-aid.



And cake!



More people will come if we say Punch and Pie!
But, guys, after all the fuss of "Essentials is 4.5!", if we actually GET a 4.5, can you imaginte the nightmare when we get "Essentials 4.5?"

I'm not sure I can handle the transition from 4e to 4eE to 4.5e to 4.5eE.

So I'll stick to my current solution: Ignore any/all erratta and pretend my books are perfect the way they are. (to be extra picky, I'm a scientist by nature, and until I see evidence that they are imperfect in practice, I have no need for erratta)

Yes, I'm dumb



No you're not. The module, tokens and poster maps in that kit are rad. I actually gave the book away and kept all the stuff.  



The kit came with a book? I keep forgetting that...


Welcome to the club. We have kool-aid.



And cake!



More people will come if we say Punch and Pie!

"I was told there would be Punch and Pie?"
Did someone use the word "rad"... holy crap that takes me back!

Wether essentials is called 4.5 or not, whether they admit it or not, and wether they ever do any sort of re-print or not one thing is clear.  Essentials is the future of dungeons and dragons.  Everything they are doing now is a direct indication of that.

I have not idea wether or not that is or isn't a good idea but my suspicion is that like everything Wizards has done since they took over D&D they will not be discussing it with the community, they won't be concerned about what we think or say or bother properly examining the impacton the D&D community.  They will release what they want to release and we will either buy it and D&D will go on, or we won't buy it and Hasbro will shut it down.  Hasbro has ZERO loyalty to fans, franchises or any other method of influence, they care about one thing and one thing only... Are we making money!?  Failing that, Hasbro will have no qualms about shutting the operation down, worse yet Hasbro has somewhat of a reputation of intentionally killing franchises rather than selling them off for someone to pick up the torch so when they do shut it down they may do so permenantly.

Its up to Wizards to correct the problems D&D is having and start paying closer attention to what the community thinks about the product, its direction and its future.  They need to stop developing 4th edition in a bubble.

My Blog (The Gamers Think Tank)

"Edition wars like all debates exist because people like debates"

I dont think a true 4.5 would sell too well, what with insiders just soaking up the updates to the CB.
Combine Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms into a harcover and I'd buy that at the regular hardcover prices.




Bad idea is bad.
Khyber is a dark and dangerous place, full of flame and smoke, where ever stranger things lie dormant.
Correct. I do not have the expectation for a new book to be reprinted with each errata. However, the PHB, and to a lesser extent, the MM, have been updated way too many times. It's time for a new print run of this STAPLE book, one that has been around since 1st edition. I have a good feeling that 5th will be all digital except for the three core books and oddities. Due to the current state of the online digital aspect of DDI I think 5th is at least three years away.



5th is probably a good ways off yet, yeah. I just wouldn't blink if they said "5E comes out tomorrow." I've finally reached that Zen "I have no expectations whatsoever" state that people always claim is the proper state of spiritual creaminess one should be in to be a DDI subscriber.

It's pleasant here, I will give them that.



Welcome to the club. We have kool-aid.



And cake!



The cake is *not* a lie.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NorZUFfpvC0

Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere


Welcome to the club. We have kool-aid.



And cake!



More people will come if we say Punch and Pie!

"I was told there would be Punch and Pie?"



Viva la Resistance!
Except 3-6 months after release we'd be in this same place again with all the damned erratta.  I would be all for a republish and new edition if WoTC can pick a direction, stick with it, finalize the game, print it right the first time, and then leave it alone instead of making all of us pay to beta test the game for them and turning our books into expensive trash.  I told myself when they released Essentials, their "Evergreen" line, that this was their second chance from me, but if those books became erratta fests I wouldn't buy another book from them again, and I won't.



Remember when a lot of folks thought the publication of the Rules Compendium meant they were finally done 'fixing' the PHB?  Oh, what fools we were!  They're never going to stop trying to 'fix' this game, even if it means destroying it.
Combine Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms into a harcover and I'd buy that at the regular hardcover prices.




Bad idea is bad.


Trite and false meme shouldn't be used without backup.
Ahh, so THIS is where I can add a sig. Remember: Killing an ancient God inside of a pyramid IS a Special Occasion, and thus, ladies should be dipping into their Special Occasions underwear drawer.
Except 3-6 months after release we'd be in this same place again with all the damned erratta.  I would be all for a republish and new edition if WoTC can pick a direction, stick with it, finalize the game, print it right the first time, and then leave it alone instead of making all of us pay to beta test the game for them and turning our books into expensive trash.  I told myself when they released Essentials, their "Evergreen" line, that this was their second chance from me, but if those books became erratta fests I wouldn't buy another book from them again, and I won't.



Remember when a lot of folks thought the publication of the Rules Compendium meant they were finally done 'fixing' the PHB?  Oh, what fools we were!  They're never going to stop trying to 'fix' this game, even if it means destroying it.



   Don't forget that there is a whole lot of flaws to the game that need fixing.  Ignoring 4e as not so clear, every edition has been an obvious improvement over the previous one.  And I am confident that 5e will be better as well.  Why should we stop improving things when there is so much that can be improved?

   And no, Essentials is not 4.5.  It is maybe 4.2, or 3.9.  A 3.0 PC was playable at a 3.5 table only if you had no other option.  Our 4.0 PC plays at an essential table with no problems besides those the game is supposed to give you.

Combine Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms into a harcover and I'd buy that at the regular hardcover prices.




Bad idea is bad.

Why is that a bad idea?
Don't forget that there is a whole lot of flaws to the game that need fixing.



The problem is that a lot of the flaws are new ones introduced by their attempts to correct earlier perceived flaws.  And I disagree completely with the sentiment - 4e is perfectly playable with just the 3 core books and not even a glance at errata.

I think this edition will be much like the current consoles in which the xbox doesn't come out with a 720 or what ever they call it, they just redesign and come out with the xbox 360 connect... its very close to a new console, and some games for the connect can not play fully on an old 360. It fixed wifi problems and runs a bit better...
I think if wizards can just keep putting out chages to 4e and never turn over to 5 they will.
They will change the core books over and over, but never have to remake the niche books like open grave, as they will all still work in the current "edition".

It could also be compaired to the fact that I just bought a video game and in the box was an add for downloadable content, meaning there was DLC before the game even came out. Why make a sequel to a game when you can put out 1 game and a hundred downloads.

And to be honest as a DM and a consumer in general, Im still not sure how I feel about this. Its cheaper for me, but harder to keep track of.
In the Nentir Vale, all injured creatures are required to wear a name tag!
Don't forget that there is a whole lot of flaws to the game that need fixing.



The problem is that a lot of the flaws are new ones introduced by their attempts to correct earlier perceived flaws.  And I disagree completely with the sentiment - 4e is perfectly playable with just the 3 core books and not even a glance at errata.


This is true. Everything that is in print in dead tree form is playable as is. No problem. As long as the players are willing to work with the DM.

The problem is, and the source of all this 'errata' is the Wizards Play Network, or as I call the root of the problem, trying to balance a team-based-RPG like a competetive CCG. That is the problem. 
No one wins in the Edition Wars. The whole hobby loses. Wizards did not lose me as a DDI subscriber with the Online CB, they lost me long before that. And I have let my Herald Level GM Status lapse after 8 years. Wizards lack of support and the Edition Wars Trolls that are poorly moderated just managed to take all the fun out of public events. ~~ KT