Are players not supposed to know how many hitpoints monsters have left?!

66 posts / 0 new
Last post
A Death Domain Warpriest has a power called "Eye of the Vulture," the effect of which is as follows:

"You learn which targets have current hit point totals lower than your healing surge value."

This causes me to do a spit take and a "bwah?!"

Is there a rule against players knowing targets' current hit point totals?
Not a specific rule saying "don't" as far as I know, but generally I'd advise only signalling "bloodied" or "dropped" automatically - unless you have a good reason to tell more, such as the power you are quoting.

There's an item that specificly tells you their current HP as well.

So yea, their only "supposed" to know bloodied.  Though i don't think there's an actual rule about it.

5e houserules and tweaks.

Celestial Link Evoking Radiance into Creation

A Party Without Music is Lame: A Bard

Level Dip Guide

 

4e stuff

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'm floored--I'd never heard of this before.
Frankly, the DM can tell you whatever he wants to tell you. *shrugs*

The power you site essentially forces* him to tell you.

*Although a DM is never actually forced to do anything.
There are guidelines for what PCs ought to be able to tell based on their skills.  If a DM provides additional information to the players that's his prerogative.

I would interpret the power in question to provide additional information to the characters which they would be justified in acting upon.

Although I've only ever had a DM reveal HP to the players if the monster in question was so close to death's door we just wanted to get the combat overwith.

My DM also does not track my HP, although I would tell him if he asked.
Is there a rule against players knowing targets' current hit point totals?

As mentioned: it should not be an expectation. Players do not normally have that information in 'standard' D&D sessions. That said, this article about transparency still suggests it as one option:
"Imagine a game where one of your players was in charge of tracking whether each PC’s attack hit or missed, as well as each monster’s current hit points (perhaps on a big white board visible to everyone at the table). To most DMs, this situation would feel totally foreign. Yet, by spreading some of the number-tracking burden to a player, you’ve given yourself more time to more carefully consider monster actions"

Even then though, it would still probably be considered 'Out-Of-Character knowledge'.
At my table we use a simple rule of "Only tell the other players, including the DM, what can be seen by a character."

It keeps things quick and easy (once new players to the group have heard "You can't tell him that; it's fine, wounded, bloodied, or dying that you can mention... and you can tell him you are getting worn out if you are low on surges") and also leads to the players thinking more of what their character would do with what he knows rather than fussing over numbers and trying to do the math.

That rule came into existence when I read a ritual that allowed the caster to be aware of the HP and Surge totals of his allies, showing that the game at least was open to the idea that specific numbers weren't normally being tossed around.

ATTENTION:  If while reading my post you find yourself thinking "Either this guy is being sarcastic, or he is an idiot," do please assume that I am an idiot. It makes reading your replies more entertaining. If, however, you find yourself hoping that I am not being even remotely serious then you are very likely correct as I find irreverence and being ridiculous to be relaxing.

My DM also does not track my HP, although I would tell him if he asked.

Ours doesn't either. I think it helps him play how he thinks the monsters would. You can't hold back if you don't know they're at 2 hit points.

I've rarely seen a game where it's considered to be a problem for the players to know all of the PCs' hit point totals, but monsters' HPs aren't usually announced directly, only their status. Usually this includes undamaged, damaged, bloodied, dropped, and (if applicable) minion.

There's nothing wrong with giving out HP totals - I've done that in a number of games. The power is there in case they're not being given out and you need to know them for some reason.
This is why my Warlord keeps a stack of scrolls of the Status ritual handy to cast every 12 game hours.  And my Avenger has the ritual caster feat with a ritual book of status, in case our party cleric doesn't have it.  ;)
While I dnt tell them specifics, I do let my party know how much damage they have done.  It gives them a ballpark once the monster is bloodied.

Play whatever the **** you want. Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.

If your party really wanted to know, they could probably figure it out.  Since the DM is supposed to announce when a monster is bloodied, someone would just need to track how much damage was done to the monster ... you know you're halfway there, so you can guesstimate the monster's HP.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Assuming the monster doesn't have any resistances.

I'll go so far as to say players aren't supposed to know the monsters' HP.  Versimilatude for one. But really it's all a matter of resource management.  If the players' know a monster has 8 HP left you will hear table talk of, "no ranger don't hit him it will be overkill, leave that guy for the [non-striker]".  Also a player won't use an enounter power where an at-will is good enough, based solely on this knowledge.   IMO, this is annoying roll-playing.  It would drive me nuts as a DM and aggravate me as a player - this player knowledge of exact HP makes resource management too easy.  As the DM, just giving out bloodied as another status is the most appropriate.  But it is correct there is no rule for this, as this is a topic which can vary from group to group and different people have difference levels of fun/comfort with.   If a game you are in seems a bit too easy and you are using exact HP consider go with just bloodied.  Also it might speed up the game as player mull decisions less.

I'll go so far as to say players aren't supposed to know the monsters' HP.  Versimilatude for one. But really it's all a matter of resource management.  If the players' know a monster has 8 HP left you will hear table talk of, "no ranger don't hit him it will be overkill, leave that guy for the [non-striker]".  Also a player won't use an enounter power where an at-will is good enough, based solely on this knowledge.   IMO, this is annoying roll-playing.  It would drive me nuts as a DM and aggravate me as a player - this player knowledge of exact HP makes resource management too easy.  As the DM, just giving out bloodied as another status is the most appropriate.  But it is correct there is no rule for this, as this is a topic which can vary from group to group and different people have difference levels of fun/comfort with.   If a game you are in seems a bit too easy and you are using exact HP consider go with just bloodied.  Also it might speed up the game as player mull decisions less.



While I agree of the actions that would result from it, I don't agree that it is roll-playing and not role-playing.

If you are in a real-life combat and your opponent looks like his arm is broken, has a dozen different wounds, and can barely stand up; are you really going to hit him with the most powerful and complicated attack move you have access to? Of course not (unless you're trying to show off). It'd expend needless energy/resources on your part that could be directed elsewhere for very little gain when a more basic and simple move would be sufficient to wrap things up so your opponent stays down. This exactly describes what you think your players would do, and that's because your players would be realistic.

How does D&D determine if someone is on their way out? By hit points. Unfortunately, D&D doesn't differentiate generic health levels outside of non-bloodied, bloodied, and dying. A creature that is 50% healthy (bloodied) will certainly look, perform, and act differently than a creature that is 5% healthy in reality, but D&D doesn't have any rules to handle this. So a fourth label may be prudent (let's call it "FINISH HIM!!!") in order to get a more realistic role-playing scenario.

Barring that, having an idea of the number of hit points left isn't a bad alternative, even if it is just a ballpark number.
As a DM, I tend to describe monsters differently when they're close to death than when they're bloodied - I find it expedient, and natural in the story, that it should be pretty obvious when a monster's on its last legs.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
"You learn which targets have current hit point totals lower than your healing surge value."


Bolded.  At 5th level, this is what, 16 hp if he's got a great con?  A monster with less than 16 hp is in critical anyways.  The party is going to know the monster is in one-shot range at this point anyways.  It's not going to hurt anything to give that info.
Yeah, no hard and fast rule on it, though the default in the game seems to be that players don't know HP numbers.

Me, I'll give them out. There's a slight twinge about it, but for the most part I don't see a need to hide it. Frankly I think there's probably a direct visual translation of HP for characters. Same goes for defenses and skill DCs, but it's still important for the DM to provide in-game descriptions along side the raw numbers.

If I have to ask the GM for it, then I don't want it.

Azhdeen - Fair enough, in 3e I did announce a 10% HP left but that wasn't always an auto-kill on the next hit.  It would be now except for solos (maybe elites?).  I have found in 4E the rest of the party is clamouring Finish him! pretty accurately without me giving it away.
As a DM I do not usually tell the players how many hit points the monsters have though we do mark the minis with red rings when they are bloodied and I will tell them that "he's not looking good" or "he's having problems keeping his limbs attached," etc., giving them hints how close they are to dying.

I do, however, make the players track damage done to the monsters on a white poker chip next to each monster with the amount of damage accumulated written in dry-erase.  That way I can think about other things and we can all see how much damage was done and the players don't know what their max hit points were either.

Incidentally, one character in the party does have Goggles of Aura Sight, but she rarely uses them.  This tells you the creature's current and maximum hit points as well as certain poison or disease information.  It's a neat item but in my experience it's more useful for learning the poison or disease info than the monster's hp.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”

A creature that is 50% healthy (bloodied) will certainly look, perform, and act differently than a creature that is 5% healthy in reality

I agree with you that characters would have access to a lot more visual cues than the players do, so being being transparent with mechanics to compensate is justified.

For discussion purposes though: fluff-wise in D&D, a bloodied creature and a creature that's almost out of HP might actually look the same (the latter might've just run out of luck so that a pin-prick goes straight to a lethal location). This might be described as the creature being worn out though, making him sloppy and less likely to avoid lethal strikes any more effectively than a green recruit (minion).

fwiw: I do often announce "next hit will kill him" to players to speed up the end combat.
As a DM of 27 years, I never tell my players any information about the monster.

The first time they encounter a monster, I'll describe it to them.  Once they learn the name of the monster (via RPing), then I will use it. 

Same goes for defenses.  After a few rounds of hitting and missing the monsters, the PCs can usually peg the monster's AC (or other defense).

As for hp, again the same.  I used to use the word "hurting" when the monster was 50% hp, now with 4e I use bloodied.  I can't count the number of times a PC's attack reduced a monster to 1 or 2 hp and the next PC unleashes a big attack to finish the monster off.  Only if the combat was an epic fight will I say, that monster only had 1 hp left when you used your [insert power] to kill him.  Otherwise, they'll never know.   They'll learn over time.  In D&D PCs aren't the only ones who earn experience for playing the game, the players do too.

Sometimes, when a monster is bloodied, I'll try to move the monster so the PCs think he's running away.  They'll catch him thinking the next hit will do him in, only to still be hacking away at him a few rounds later.  It keeps the PCs guessing.

I also normally limit "numbers communication" between players.  They use "Fine (0%), hurt (<50%), bloodied (>50%)" for hp (with dying being obvious) and "fine (>66%), tired (33-66%) and spent (<33%)" for healing surges left, among other descriptions for other effects, ressistances, etc.

However with the Virtual Table, it's a little harder to do as it shows everyone everyone's hps, etc.
How about introduce new status for your games.
Healthy - 51-100% of hp
Bloodied - 26-50% of hp
Battered - 1-25% of hp
Dying - 0% of hp

Also known as
Hit Points Total
Bloodied Value
Healing Surge Value
0 HP 

Monster dropped to its healing surge value is obviously close to death and sometimes can be knocked out with the next attack, unless it's one of those pesky solos or elites. 
Unless a power says a character knows exactly how many hp a monster has, a character does not know.  Using monster knowledge checks against skills is the only RAW method of giving characters information about monsters.  Nothing in the monster knowledge skill check says anything about HP totals.

One poster mentioned "unless the monster has resistances".  From the DMG, page 27:
"Game States, Conditions, and Effects: Since pC abilities can sometimes hinge on a game state, condi-tion, or effect that affects their opponent, make it clear to the players how their enemies are doing. Be descrip-tive, considering the source of the condition, but also be explicit. " 

Pentay's idea of limiting numbers communication is pretty bad, and goes against the principles of openness that are built into 4e.  Too many powers require knowledge of each others numbers to make limiting intra-player number exchange viable.  


If you are in a real-life combat and your opponent looks like his arm is broken, has a dozen different wounds, and can barely stand up; are you really going to hit him with the most powerful and complicated attack move you have access to? Of course not (unless you're trying to show off). It'd expend needless energy/resources on your part that could be directed elsewhere for very little gain when a more basic and simple move would be sufficient to wrap things up so your opponent stays down. This exactly describes what you think your players would do, and that's because your players would be realistic.

How does D&D determine if someone is on their way out? By hit points. Unfortunately, D&D doesn't differentiate generic health levels outside of non-bloodied, bloodied, and dying. A creature that is 50% healthy (bloodied) will certainly look, perform, and act differently than a creature that is 5% healthy in reality, but D&D doesn't have any rules to handle this. So a fourth label may be prudent (let's call it "FINISH HIM!!!") in order to get a more realistic role-playing scenario.




Actually I don't view it like that. Normally, in my games, a creature with 1Hp left is obviously hurt aka "bloodied", but otherwise is described as normal. What happens on the last blow is tiredness causes a mistake, or the creature is finally out of luck, or its morale has broken and it gives up. It actually does go from slightly injured to struck dead from the very last blow. After all, that's how a sword blow actually works (ok,ok, that's how it's usually portrayed cinematically) - everything else is parrying or enduring pain from minor injuries.

This makes hitpoints even more abstract, but is I think a common way to play, and a way of thinking I encourage from my players. I dislike describing all landed blows as doing physical damage, they are usually parried or otheriwse partially negated, unless the target is some kind of damage sponge such as a zombie.

In that interpretation, magic effects such as that noted by the OP are actually viewing the divine fate of the target, not just a physical health check.

It doesn't always work like my way all the time though - some effects demand that you imagine direct, small amounts of physical damage.


Actually I don't view it like that. Normally, in my games, a creature with 1Hp left is obviously hurt aka "bloodied", but otherwise is described as normal. What happens on the last blow is tiredness causes a mistake, or the creature is finally out of luck, or its morale has broken and it gives up. It actually does go from slightly injured to struck dead from the very last blow. After all, that's how a sword blow actually works (ok,ok, that's how it's usually portrayed cinematically) - everything else is parrying or enduring pain from minor injuries.


I believe that's what the fate system is like.  You might want to look it up.
When we first started playing 4e, my group was pretty transparent about monster information.  Never exact defenses and hit points, but things like, "Three chillborn zombies attack!" instead of, "Three shambling corpses approach through the darkness.  The air appears colder the nearer you draw to them."  Now I try to be pretty evasive about monsters they haven't fought before.  I might say the monsters are zombies, but I'm not going to say a specific name unless a monster knowledge roll is made.  I like to make the people who took/were forced to take knowledge skills feel like they're contributing.

As for hit points, if asked I'll tell how much damage a monster has taken.  I figure that's something they could know anyway if someone wanted to take the time to write it all down.  When a monster  is at the point where they could one-shot it, I usually use the term, "Really Bloodied."

I'd be okay with revealing total hit points for a monster, but it'd be like a mini skill challenge.  It'd go something like this:

  1. Free Action: Succeed on a monster knowledge check against the average DC for the monster's level. (This can happen at any point in combat before step 2.)

  2. Minor Action: Succeed on a Heal check against the hard DC for the monster's level (trained only).

Basically, if you have a general knowledge of the creature in question and have the knowledge required to identify severity of wounds, overall fatigue, and other physical ailments, you could likely assess how healthy this monster should be against how healthy they currently are.
A Death Domain Warpriest has a power called "Eye of the Vulture," the effect of which is as follows:

"You learn which targets have current hit point totals lower than your healing surge value."

This causes me to do a spit take and a "bwah?!"

Is there a rule against players knowing targets' current hit point totals?


Wow.  I read this completely differently than the other responses in this thread.

To me, the power allows the warpriest to know whether or not the current hit points of the targets are less that his healing surge value.  Nothing says he knows exactly how many hit points they have; only whether or not their current total is less than his surge value.

As DM, I would just indicate which opponents meet that interpretation and not tell the player the exact number of total hit points remaining that those targets possess.

Unless I am completely off base here... which is entirely possible.
Come join Team Apathy! or not whatever shrug.gif
 
Yo! tm  afro.gif

 
I as a DM generally add a secend HP call out when a monster hits single digit health, both to tell my players they have nearly finished it off and allow them to save their more potent attacks for other things.
A Death Domain Warpriest has a power called "Eye of the Vulture," the effect of which is as follows:

"You learn which targets have current hit point totals lower than your healing surge value."

This causes me to do a spit take and a "bwah?!"

Is there a rule against players knowing targets' current hit point totals?


Wow.  I read this completely differently than the other responses in this thread.

To me, the power allows the warpriest to know whether or not the current hit points of the targets are less that his healing surge value.  Nothing says he knows exactly how many hit points they have; only whether or not their current total is less than his surge value.

As DM, I would just indicate which opponents meet that interpretation and not tell the player the exact number of total hit points remaining that those targets possess.

Unless I am completely off base here... which is entirely possible.



That seems reasonable, but the OP's question still stands.  If you're telling your players exactly how many HP monsters have left, then they would already have the info in question (and more).
I as a DM generally add a secend HP call out when a monster hits single digit health, both to tell my players they have nearly finished it off and allow them to save their more potent attacks for other things.

Our DM does something similar, but it usually comes out as a more pathetic-sounding, "well-they've-gone-and-broken-my-toy-yet-again" declaration of "Well... it's still standing..."

loose [loos] vt. to let loose; to release; to unfasten, undo or untie; to shoot or discharge. lose [looz] vt. to come to be without (something in one's possession or care), through accident, theft, etc., so that there is little or no prospect of recovery; to fail inadvertently to retain (something) in such a way that it cannot be immediately recovered; to suffer the deprivation of. LEARN THE DAMN DIFFERENCE. 

Like this?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I as a DM generally add a secend HP call out when a monster hits single digit health, both to tell my players they have nearly finished it off and allow them to save their more potent attacks for other things.

Our DM does something similar, but it usually comes out as a more pathetic-sounding, "well-they've-gone-and-broken-my-toy-yet-again" declaration of "Well... it's still standing..."




heh, tend to view dnd as a group game and in it more for the story/character interaction so if they trouse my monsters in interesting ways its cool
A Death Domain Warpriest has a power called "Eye of the Vulture," the effect of which is as follows:

"You learn which targets have current hit point totals lower than your healing surge value."

This causes me to do a spit take and a "bwah?!"

Is there a rule against players knowing targets' current hit point totals?

The rules don't give players any general way of knowing a monster's starting hps or current hps, just whether it's bloodied or not.  So a power like that could be handy.

Of course, players can quite easily track the damage they've done to a monster.  If you bloody a monster after inflicting 52 points of damage, it'll definitely be dead in another 52, probably less since it's a bit rare to bloody a monster exactly.  Bloody the same kind of monster a few times and you should have a pretty clear idea of it's hp total.  Similarly, you can 'bracket' a monster's defenses by noting when you and your buddies hit or miss it. 

Some DMs figure that since PCs can puzzle out monster hps and defenses, they might just as well be open about them, and free up player attention for other things.

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

My feeling is that I would tell you if you asked, but it's kind of tacky to ask.
In my group we've houseruled in monster hp and defenses as part of the hard DC monster knowledge check.  If we blow the check, we usually figure it out by the end of the fight anyway.

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.

My feeling is that I would tell you if you asked, but it's kind of tacky to ask.

Win

Those of us who DM doesn't really tell the players the HP or defenses of monsters.  Not exactly at least.  But as players we can ask how the monster looks to get a general idea.  You know, "Not damaged much", "beat up some", "looks like crap", that sorta thing.  And then if someone rolls an attack and lands exactly on the monster's def then we sometimes let them know their attack was "on the dot".  Sometimes people don't catch onto it, sometimes they do.  Also you can deduce defenses roughly by what attack rolls hit and miss to get a range.

But honestly, don't really see a big deal in telling players the HP and whatever of monsters if the DM wants.  Personally I don't see a reason to disclose the info just because, but eh this doesn't seem much of a rules thing to me, more just preference. 
Actually I don't view it like that. Normally, in my games, a creature with 1Hp left is obviously hurt aka "bloodied", but otherwise is described as normal. What happens on the last blow is tiredness causes a mistake, or the creature is finally out of luck, or its morale has broken and it gives up. It actually does go from slightly injured to struck dead from the very last blow. After all, that's how a sword blow actually works (ok,ok, that's how it's usually portrayed cinematically) - everything else is parrying or enduring pain from minor injuries.


I believe that's what the fate system is like.  You might want to look it up.



On my list to take a look, thank you :-)

However, I'm pretty happy with just using the concept over the top of 4E, without requiring any mechanics for it whatsoever. I see no need to simulate this opinion in the game mechanics - the highly abstract "it doesn't matter, it's a game first, so rationalise and describe afterwards" attitude of 4E actually suits me very well for combat encounters.

I often tell my players when a monster only has 1 hp left, because I often think it's hilarious. "Well, your crit did 44 damage.  Too bad he had 45 hp left...."

Yeah, it makes them magic missile bait, but hey - anything to make magic missile more useful is fine by me!

-O
Sign In to post comments