Why did they make Daggerdale Baulder's Gate 2.0?

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I was really hoping the first console D&D game of this generation would be a to true conversion of the original 4E ruleset. The core of 4th edition is already so heavily influenced by videogames and card games that it seemed only logical that it be converted into a console based stratergy RPG to me. From what I've seen on Daggerdale is that its basically Baulder's Gate with 4E feat names and item names. I saw nothing else that resembled 4E in the game at all. The fact that you are stuck with pre-generated characters also reinforces the idea that this isn't really a rpg at all rather than a hack and slash, with a exp gauge for more health points.

Characters will rommage through dungeons and caverns finding loot in every thing they smash, no thought of finesse required, I'm not even sure I saw skills in the character sheet. The npc's seem to offer no real depth to the game and only seem to remind you that you are doing something them. The fact that you spend the entire game in a dungeon also doesn't really seem to help improve a fans disposition as to this being anything more than a 6 dollar game purchasable from the psn store. (which in most cases is exactly what it is.)

I am not surprised Atari went this route with the game, they have a history of just wanting to push out products dispite poor design or ideas. I really had high hopes for this as consoles just about always get screwed when it comes to D&D products, we tend to get treated like idiots when it comes to what might sell and what wont. "Oh if its not a simple hack & slash dungeon crawl it won't sell more than 10,000 units.{ Well maybe it wont if you don't challenge the audience every once and awhile and put out the good word that despite its level of challenge a game thats true to its table top origins can be very fun.

I'm not saying im not going to give Daggerdale a try, I'm saying i wanted more than they are intending to give. I don't have a gaming pc, in fact all i have is this laptop, so when that new Neverwinter comes out, I doubt I'll have a chance to play it. I can only hope however that its what i wished for with Daggerdale. A true to origin 4E game that incorporates the rules of 4E in a 3D environment.

I'll be trying my first Oblivion game in November, Skyrim seems to be more my speed in terms of a game with a structure similar to a actual character developing ruleset.
I was really hoping the first console D&D game of this generation would be a to true conversion of the original 4E ruleset. The core of 4th edition is already so heavily influenced by videogames and card games that it seemed only logical that it be converted into a console based stratergy RPG to me. From what I've seen on Daggerdale is that its basically Baulder's Gate with 4E feat names and item names. I saw nothing else that resembled 4E in the game at all. The fact that you are stuck with pre-generated characters also reinforces the idea that this isn't really a rpg at all rather than a hack and slash, with a exp gauge for more health points.

Characters will rommage through dungeons and caverns finding loot in every thing they smash, no thought of finesse required, I'm not even sure I saw skills in the character sheet. The npc's seem to offer no real depth to the game and only seem to remind you that you are doing something them. The fact that you spend the entire game in a dungeon also doesn't really seem to help improve a fans disposition as to this being anything more than a 6 dollar game purchasable from the psn store. (which in most cases is exactly what it is.)

I am not surprised Atari went this route with the game, they have a history of just wanting to push out products dispite poor design or ideas. I really had high hopes for this as consoles just about always get screwed when it comes to D&D products, we tend to get treated like idiots when it comes to what might sell and what wont. "Oh if its not a simple hack & slash dungeon crawl it won't sell more than 10,000 units.{ Well maybe it wont if you don't challenge the audience every once and awhile and put out the good word that despite its level of challenge a game thats true to its table top origins can be very fun.


Having played the Demo at PAX East and talking to the guys there, it's simply the game they wanted to make. They all loved the Dark Alliance games (as do I) so yeah they made an updated version of that style of game. You're correct that the game is only 4e in name (spells/powers/monsters and so on all have 4e names) and not mechanically.

If you want a game that is mechanically like 4e you'd have to make Final Fantasy Tactics with the 4e rule set. That's just a different type of game entirely.
Methinks a true 4e CRPG would have to be turn-based, but that is unfortunately not a popular trend in computer games these days.
Methinks a true 4e CRPG would have to be turn-based, but that is unfortunately not a popular trend in computer games these days.


It isn't for big gaming companies, but you know who loves it? Facebook.

Here's some free advice for WotC: Go talk to Zynga or whatever stupid names these facebook game developers call themselves,  make a turn based online game you can play with friends characters. Free to play but use micro purchases for suckers customers who want more "power". Go take a look at Dragon Age: Legends on facebook. It's kinda fun, uses the Might & Magic style where parties are on oposite sides of a static map. If I wanted to waste money on it I could, otherwise it's a game with ads for the new books you want to push.
I think you'd lose precision, but I think you could replicate 4e mechanics in realtime through the use of cool-downs. The biggest problem might be targeting AOEs, but the game could auto-pause when you cast an AOE and let you place it.

I think it could be done. Likely WOTC wanted to pull the plug on the license and Atari just whipped up whatever it could with old art assets / engines. It really looks like a terrible game with a dumb one-dimensional story. 

I don't know why WoTc just doesn't revoke Atari's license and allow any developer to create a D&D game.   We would have all kinds of 4e games by now.  Sure some might be bad, but at least we would have a few good ones. I'm sure there would be many D&D games up on Steam for sale from Indie developers.   Wotc should at least have several developers /publishers signed on. Not just one big giant company that only cares about its margins.  

I'd be happy right now with a few of the gold box games updated and converted to 4e.   If I recall SSI is now owned by Ubisoft. I wonder if they would have been a better choice over Atari.   

I think wotc has to acknowledge that D&D video games will never make the kinds of profits that giants like Atari demand.  WotC needs to focus on smaller companies that have more interest and passion for creating D&D games.








 
You should probably ask Atari, rather than on the forums of the company that just licensed them the IP.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Make your own =)  I'm working on a warhammer type game in XNA.  I don't have the budget or art team that a huge company has, but I'm finding that I personally am more attracted to solid game play and details as opposed to awesome graphics with a hollow interior.
To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
Because Hasbro owns both Atari and WotC.

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.
Because Hasbro owns both Atari and WotC.

Not since 2001.

Steve

If your only tool is a warhammer, every problem looks like a gnoll.

Wait, seriously? I mean, I see the WOTC in your username, so its a pretty safe bet you work for the people who make D&D, and thus, Hasbro, but if Atari isn't part of Hasbro, then what reason does Hasbro have for keeping the D&D license with Atari? All they've done is made crappy D&D games.

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.
It got horrible reviews.  I am disappointed.  =(  It didn't get horrible reviews for not being Baldurs Gate Part 2.  It got horrible reviews for being rushed out the door and filled with bugs.
To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
Wait, seriously? I mean, I see the WOTC in your username, so its a pretty safe bet you work for the people who make D&D, and thus, Hasbro, but if Atari isn't part of Hasbro, then what reason does Hasbro have for keeping the D&D license with Atari? All they've done is made crappy D&D games.



Because back in 2007 Hasbro signed a 10-year licensing deal with atari to release D&D games. Until Atari does something that breaks the terms of the licensing agreement, there is nothing that Hasbro can do.
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
Wait, seriously? I mean, I see the WOTC in your username, so its a pretty safe bet you work for the people who make D&D, and thus, Hasbro, but if Atari isn't part of Hasbro, then what reason does Hasbro have for keeping the D&D license with Atari? All they've done is made crappy D&D games.

As far as I recall, which I eluded to before, Atari has a multiple year contract. As long as they put out a game every so often, however crappy (OK, I'm sure there's lawyer speak to make sure it isn't too crappy), they get to keep the license. They might just keep it to keep some other company from making a competing game with the license.

Edit: Ninja'd!
Edit: Ninja'd!



That's right.



Mudbunny SVCL for DDI Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere
Because Hasbro owns both Atari and WotC.



Because Hasbro owns both Atari and WotC.

Not since 2001.

Steve




Even if that were the case, the Atari personnel aren't going to peruse the D&D boards (unless they also happen to play).  And hey, what do you know ..

forums.atari.com/

Atari forums!
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
When Temple of Elemental Evil (the video game) came out, i was on those forums. Still have an active account. However, I feel that Atari screwed ToEE over (Troika may have helped), so I haven't been back to the Atari boards since.

But, what possessed Hasbro to sign a deal with Atari? The "success" of Neverwinter Nights 2? Fantastic. So, for another 6 years, we get lukewarm (at best; pools of vomit at worst) D&D games. Awesome.

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.
What they should do is remake Curse of the Azure Bonds as 4E, turn based grid combat and all.
...whatever
I was really hoping the first console D&D game of this generation would be a to true conversion of the original 4E ruleset. The core of 4th edition is already so heavily influenced by videogames and card games that it seemed only logical that it be converted into a console based stratergy RPG to me. From what I've seen on Daggerdale is that its basically Baulder's Gate with 4E feat names and item names. I saw nothing else that resembled 4E in the game at all. The fact that you are stuck with pre-generated characters also reinforces the idea that this isn't really a rpg at all rather than a hack and slash, with a exp gauge for more health points.

Characters will rommage through dungeons and caverns finding loot in every thing they smash, no thought of finesse required, I'm not even sure I saw skills in the character sheet. The npc's seem to offer no real depth to the game and only seem to remind you that you are doing something them. The fact that you spend the entire game in a dungeon also doesn't really seem to help improve a fans disposition as to this being anything more than a 6 dollar game purchasable from the psn store. (which in most cases is exactly what it is.)

I am not surprised Atari went this route with the game, they have a history of just wanting to push out products dispite poor design or ideas. I really had high hopes for this as consoles just about always get screwed when it comes to D&D products, we tend to get treated like idiots when it comes to what might sell and what wont. "Oh if its not a simple hack & slash dungeon crawl it won't sell more than 10,000 units.{ Well maybe it wont if you don't challenge the audience every once and awhile and put out the good word that despite its level of challenge a game thats true to its table top origins can be very fun.

I'm not saying im not going to give Daggerdale a try, I'm saying i wanted more than they are intending to give. I don't have a gaming pc, in fact all i have is this laptop, so when that new Neverwinter comes out, I doubt I'll have a chance to play it. I can only hope however that its what i wished for with Daggerdale. A true to origin 4E game that incorporates the rules of 4E in a 3D environment.

I'll be trying my first Oblivion game in November, Skyrim seems to be more my speed in terms of a game with a structure similar to a actual character developing ruleset.



Because Baldur's Gate Dark: Alliance is cool. This is a game themed off of D&D, it's not D&D. Besides- most people who play video games on the consoles HATE turn based games. And they are the market- not D&D players. I know quite a few friends who hate D&D (and Roleplaying) but love this type of game.
What they should do is remake Curse of the Azure Bonds as 4E, turn based grid combat and all.



I dont know 'Curse of the Azure Bonds' but I would line up to buy a grid based tactical rpg that shows some actual depth.
Quality aside, I think some people are missing the intent of the game and what it says about WotC and D&D as a whole. D&D has been around for nearly 40 years now and has been evolving for it's entire lifespan. The children of early D&D players are now having kids of their own and WotC has realized (about time, IMO) that D&D isn't really just a game anymore it is a brand and it can be leveraged in different ways. The new board games line is one such interation of this, as is Daggerdale. I do think that for the first video game outing of the new edition they should have cleaved a little closer to the classic D&D game but the notion that a D&D video game must try to replicate digitally the gameplay of the tabletop RPG is naively archaic.
Advice for DMs: When you are ad lib or improve DMing don't self-edit yourself. Some of the most fun you'll ever have is by just going with whatever crazy thing crosses your mind based on what your players are doing. Advice for Players: When your DM is ad libbing there are bound to be plot holes and inconsistencies that crop up. You'll all have a lot more fun if you just roll with it instead of nitpicking the details.
Previous Advice
Advice for DMs: Always dangle a lot of plot hooks in front of you players. Anything they do not bite you can bring back and bite them later. When considering a new house rule ask yourself the question "Will this make the game more fun?" Unless the answer is a resounding yes don't do it. Advice for Players: Always tell the DM not just what you want to do but also what you are hoping to accomplish. No matter how logical the result is it will never happen if it simply never occurred to the DM. "That's what my character would do" is not a valid excuse for being a disruptive ass at the table. Your right to have fun only extends to the point where it impedes the ability of others to do likewise.
Yup.  I was hoping for a nice, tactical RPG at some point.  Or even a tactical/action hybrid like Neverwinter Nights.

This is just silly, and saying it "follows 4e rules" is ... well, it's a lie.

-O
What they should do is remake Curse of the Azure Bonds as 4E, turn based grid combat and all.



No idea what this adventure is, but I support this.

The Temple of Elemental Evil game was fantastic, and was the most accurate rendition of D&D I've ever seen. The only thing that undid it was that it was horribly buggy, and I blame that on Atari probably wanting to get it on the market before Troika worked out all the bugs (but, to be fair, Troika made a few other games that were buggy, so maybe its both. But, Atari sucking still ruined that game).

In my eyes, a 4e version of ToEE would be great. Just need to get a competent storywriting team to get in the RP elements required of a good game (see: Bioware).

Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid

Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade.

"Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall,

"But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling

 

Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e!

 

57019168 wrote:
I am a hero, not a chump.
What they should do is remake Curse of the Azure Bonds as 4E, turn based grid combat and all.



No idea what this adventure is, but I support this.

The Temple of Elemental Evil game was fantastic, and was the most accurate rendition of D&D I've ever seen. The only thing that undid it was that it was horribly buggy, and I blame that on Atari probably wanting to get it on the market before Troika worked out all the bugs (but, to be fair, Troika made a few other games that were buggy, so maybe its both. But, Atari sucking still ruined that game).

In my eyes, a 4e version of ToEE would be great. Just need to get a competent storywriting team to get in the RP elements required of a good game (see: Bioware).




Troika's ToEE, hell yes.
If anyone's interested www.co8.org/forum/
is the go to place for patches, mods and whatnot, including the restoration of some of the content Atari made Troika remove from a game clearly meant for adults of a certain age & nostalgia level, in order to get some bogus "kiddie" rating.

Given that a lot of the design decisions in 3e and 4e where supposedly made to facilitate computer game development, the lack of a turn based tactical games is just, well, dumb.
With just about every developers insistance on "real time" BS, using a particular ruleset in game develpment is pointless, as that type of game doesn't highlight anything of value to the systems they're claiming to emulate.
Get the troika folks back, retool TOEE using the current ruleset, Turn Based Combat, of course. Release in December then follow up with expansions covering Against The Giants, The Scourge of the Slave Lords. maybe DLC for the one shot's like Ghost Tower of Inverness, White Plume Mountain, etc. Using the same engine, could throw the Dragonlance folks a bone or two with faithful adaptations of the first 3 mods of that series. Then when it looks about like the engine's run it's course release an adventure editor/builder expansion sort of like the old Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures.
What they should do is remake Curse of the Azure Bonds as 4E, turn based grid combat and all.



No idea what this adventure is, but I support this.




Look up and aquire what were called the Gold Box games publisged by SSI.

there were the first AD&D licensed computer games and stick to the 1stED rule set.

Curse of the Azure Bonds was the 2nd(?) game in the series.
I think all told by the time the Gold Box stopped being used there hade been 6 games made using the engine.
Fire Emblem is probably going to be the closest thing you're gonna get to 4th ed D&D on a console/PC. Years ago Sega made a game series called Shining Force which I still have and at the time I thought "this is the best D&D game I've played" even though it did not have the D&D label slapped on it.  It also had paragon pahts/prestige classes you could unlock via special items found in game. That was in 93/94.

 Also Atari basically sucks. Go Bioware.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Force_II

And the awesome graphics.
au.cheats.ign.com/dor/objects/6302/shini...

IGN gave it 9/10 and it often makes the list of top 100 games of all time.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Fire Emblem is probably going to be the closest thing you're gonna get to 4th ed D&D on a console/PC. Years ago Sega made a game series called Shining Force which I still have and at the time I thought "this is the best D&D game I've played" even though it did not have the D&D label slapped on it.  It also had paragon pahts/prestige classes you could unlock via special items found in game. That was in 93/94.

 Also Atari basically sucks. Go Bioware.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Force_II

And the awesome graphics.
au.cheats.ign.com/dor/objects/6302/shini...

IGN gave it 9/10 and it often makes the list of top 100 games of all time.



Ah, Shining Force. What a great series. I wish Sega would get around to doing a proper sequal.

(Cal goes back to writing his Shining Force 4E campaign)

There was a D&D Tactics game released for Playstation Portable.  It was a dumbed-down 3.5 ruleset, and the interface was like pulling teeth at times, but it was the truest translation of D&D combat to a game system that I've played.

I'd love to see a 4e incarnation (preferably on something bigger than the PSP). 

Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.


Having played the Demo at PAX East and talking to the guys there, it's simply the game they wanted to make. They all loved the Dark Alliance games (as do I) so yeah they made an updated version of that style of game. You're correct that the game is only 4e in name (spells/powers/monsters and so on all have 4e names) and not mechanically.

If you want a game that is mechanically like 4e you'd have to make Final Fantasy Tactics with the 4e rule set. That's just a different type of game entirely.




Well, we knew from the beginning that it was going to be a DnD based action adventure game, not a DnD RPG. I mean, we really knew it from the beginning.

And I say that's fine. We'll see how "4e" the Neverwinter game is.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
i think if they could do a game in the same style as Final Fantasy Tactics, incorporating all the 4E rules, and going into the tiers, paragon paths, and epic destinies, while telling a good story with some character development it would blow the doors off of anything.  FF Tacs did imo the best hybrid of an rpg and an rts on a skirmish level I have ever seen in a video game and would perfectly translate D&D.  
What they should do is remake Curse of the Azure Bonds as 4E, turn based grid combat and all.



No idea what this adventure is, but I support this.




Look up and aquire what were called the Gold Box games publisged by SSI.

there were the first AD&D licensed computer games and stick to the 1stED rule set.

Curse of the Azure Bonds was the 2nd(?) game in the series.
I think all told by the time the Gold Box stopped being used there hade been 6 games made using the engine.



Actually there were 6 games in the gold box series, 3 games (or more) in the Krynn series, There were two other games in another series that I don't remember that used that engine, and finally they released "Unlimited Adventures" that allowed you to create your own adventures, oh and lets not forget the AOL MMO "Neverwinter" that used the engine but allowed you to play online with other people...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Fire Emblem is probably going to be the closest thing you're gonna get to 4th ed D&D on a console/PC. Years ago Sega made a game series called Shining Force which I still have and at the time I thought "this is the best D&D game I've played" even though it did not have the D&D label slapped on it.  It also had paragon pahts/prestige classes you could unlock via special items found in game. That was in 93/94.

 Also Atari basically sucks. Go Bioware.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shining_Force_II

And the awesome graphics.
au.cheats.ign.com/dor/objects/6302/shini...

IGN gave it 9/10 and it often makes the list of top 100 games of all time.



While I do agree with you that Shining Force was great, you forgot to mention a little bit about the origin of the series. Shining Force while a great game, was not the first in the series, it was preceded by a game called Shining in the Darkness which had a couple of the base mechanics. But Shining in the Darkness was the first in the Shining Franchise. Shining in the Darkness was at its a heart a true dungeon crawl, and it was DnDsh on that aspect. I felt Shining In the Darkness was more DnDish than Shining Force. Shining Force while it has that paragon path feel, and what not, Shining in the Darkness was more enclosed. Shining Force was more about building an army, as opposed to the more intimate setting of its predeccessors. And Sega did not technically make the game, they published it. Camelot and Climax software codeveloped Shining in the Darkness, and Climax developed the original Shining Force, where as Camelot developed Shining Force 2, 3 and what not. Of course they are no longer exclusive perse, because right now they are most known for developing the Golden Sun games for the GBA/DS.

What they should do is remake Curse of the Azure Bonds as 4E, turn based grid combat and all.



No idea what this adventure is, but I support this.




Look up and aquire what were called the Gold Box games publisged by SSI.

there were the first AD&D licensed computer games and stick to the 1stED rule set.

Curse of the Azure Bonds was the 2nd(?) game in the series.
I think all told by the time the Gold Box stopped being used there hade been 6 games made using the engine.



Actually there were 6 games in the gold box series, 3 games (or more) in the Krynn series, There were two other games in another series that I don't remember that used that engine, and finally they released "Unlimited Adventures" that allowed you to create your own adventures, oh and lets not forget the AOL MMO "Neverwinter" that used the engine but allowed you to play online with other people...


Actually all those games are considered Gold Box games, including the Krynn games. They are called that because of the gold box that were used to package the game, and there were far more than six. What your mixing up is the fact that there was not gold box and Krynn. They were sub sereis but all in gold box, and all considered gold box. With that said, there are a total of 15 gold box games divided up in sub series. So with that said the series were the Six Pool of Radiance games, the three Savage Frontier games, The three Dragonlance games, the two Buck Rogers games, and a standalone Spelljammer Gold box games. Yes they were all gold boxes, but while they belong to that series, they all are in their own sub series you could say.
It's a bit disappointing to hear that the game is so buggy at launch. Seems to be the trend these days with RPGs to release buggy games and patch later (See: The Witcher, Dragon Age 2, etc). I'm not sure you can totally blame Atari or the small developers they higher.
I liked what I played at PAX East, and I guess I'll hold off on buying the game until I know its patched well enough. I don't mind hack'n'slash adventure games as long as I know what I'm getting into.

I've said it before, a D&D tactical game (hopefully using the 4e ruleset) would work well either as online flash game for Facebook, or as a smaller series of games with a a few dungeons to delve that just spans one teir. Maybe a random map generator for skirmishes and such. Release something like that for $20 then another for Paragon and another for Epic.

Now if you're looking for voice actors, cinematic cutscenes, sweeping music and all those things we loved from the old Bioware games and earlier, well we may have to wait until after 2017* when another developer can pick up the title. Or hope that some small start up has big aspirations and seeks out Atari to make the game.

*Who signs 10 year contracts? Have we learned nothing from baseball? Signing a guy for a long term contract doesn't always work out. At least put a clause in to be able to review the contract after 5 years. Otherwise you get stuck with players like Dice-K or JD Drew. 
It's a bit disappointing to hear that the game is so buggy at launch. Seems to be the trend these days with RPGs to release buggy games and patch later (See: The Witcher, Dragon Age 2, etc). I'm not sure you can totally blame Atari or the small developers they higher.
I liked what I played at PAX East, and I guess I'll hold off on buying the game until I know its patched well enough. I don't mind hack'n'slash adventure games as long as I know what I'm getting into.

I've said it before, a D&D tactical game (hopefully using the 4e ruleset) would work well either as online flash game for Facebook, or as a smaller series of games with a a few dungeons to delve that just spans one teir. Maybe a random map generator for skirmishes and such. Release something like that for $20 then another for Paragon and another for Epic.

Now if you're looking for voice actors, cinematic cutscenes, sweeping music and all those things we loved from the old Bioware games and earlier, well we may have to wait until after 2017* when another developer can pick up the title. Or hope that some small start up has big aspirations and seeks out Atari to make the game.

*Who signs 10 year contracts? Have we learned nothing from baseball? Signing a guy for a long term contract doesn't always work out. At least put a clause in to be able to review the contract after 5 years. Otherwise you get stuck with players like Dice-K or JD Drew. 



Or better yet give them a minimum profit margin to reach and if they fall below that have an option to pull the contract and give it to someone else...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
How hard would it be to make a true to the rules 4th ed tactical game?  The MtG folks put out fine electronic products. There were tons of games in the 80s that were basically tactical wargames converted to computer. What has happened to those developers?  
Look up and aquire what were called the Gold Box games publisged by SSI.

there were the first AD&D licensed computer games and stick to the 1stED rule set.


Not quite.
Advice for DMs: When you are ad lib or improve DMing don't self-edit yourself. Some of the most fun you'll ever have is by just going with whatever crazy thing crosses your mind based on what your players are doing. Advice for Players: When your DM is ad libbing there are bound to be plot holes and inconsistencies that crop up. You'll all have a lot more fun if you just roll with it instead of nitpicking the details.
Previous Advice
Advice for DMs: Always dangle a lot of plot hooks in front of you players. Anything they do not bite you can bring back and bite them later. When considering a new house rule ask yourself the question "Will this make the game more fun?" Unless the answer is a resounding yes don't do it. Advice for Players: Always tell the DM not just what you want to do but also what you are hoping to accomplish. No matter how logical the result is it will never happen if it simply never occurred to the DM. "That's what my character would do" is not a valid excuse for being a disruptive ass at the table. Your right to have fun only extends to the point where it impedes the ability of others to do likewise.
How hard would it be to make a true to the rules 4th ed tactical game?  The MtG folks put out fine electronic products. There were tons of games in the 80s that were basically tactical wargames converted to computer. What has happened to those developers?  



The dollar.

Turn based tactical games are not popular.  This is saddening for someone like me who loves them. So I take matters into my own hands (I am a software developer).

I am currently working on a turn based mass combat warhammer type game. 

However the big boys with the pretty art departments won't touch it because it won't make them 40 billion dollars because very few people will buy it as opposed to the RTS stuff (which I honestly have been burnt out on long ago)
To see my campaign world visit http://dnd.chrisnye.net My music -> www.myspace.com/Incarna My music videos -> www.youtube.com/Auticusx
What they should do is remake Curse of the Azure Bonds as 4E, turn based grid combat and all.

Oh, this could be awesome IMO. That series soaked up a goodly portion of my childhood. I could see them keeping to the PHB1 classes for PoR, and adding more to the other sequals.

For those born too late to enjoy the game, here you go
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pool_of_Radiance
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_the_Azure...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_of_the_Silv...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pools_of_Darkness

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How hard would it be to make a true to the rules 4th ed tactical game?  The MtG folks put out fine electronic products. There were tons of games in the 80s that were basically tactical wargames converted to computer. What has happened to those developers?  



The dollar.

Turn based tactical games are not popular.  This is saddening for someone like me who loves them. So I take matters into my own hands (I am a software developer).

I am currently working on a turn based mass combat warhammer type game. 

However the big boys with the pretty art departments won't touch it because it won't make them 40 billion dollars because very few people will buy it as opposed to the RTS stuff (which I honestly have been burnt out on long ago)


I don't know if turned based games are not popular because of the structure or because there really haven't been any good turn based game in over 5-6 years that I can think of. (I'm sure I've missed some games).

A turned based game with strong visuals, voice acting, cinematics and all those other wonderful things adventure games do I think would sell fine. But all that requires a developer willing to spend the time and money making a good game. No one seems to be willing to do that when you can make button mashers that are cheaper to make and grant bigger profits. 
What they should do is remake Curse of the Azure Bonds as 4E, turn based grid combat and all.



No idea what this adventure is, but I support this.

The Temple of Elemental Evil game was fantastic, and was the most accurate rendition of D&D I've ever seen. The only thing that undid it was that it was horribly buggy, and I blame that on Atari probably wanting to get it on the market before Troika worked out all the bugs (but, to be fair, Troika made a few other games that were buggy, so maybe its both. But, Atari sucking still ruined that game).

In my eyes, a 4e version of ToEE would be great. Just need to get a competent storywriting team to get in the RP elements required of a good game (see: Bioware).




Troika's ToEE, hell yes.
If anyone's interested www.co8.org/forum/
is the go to place for patches, mods and whatnot, including the restoration of some of the content Atari made Troika remove from a game clearly meant for adults of a certain age & nostalgia level, in order to get some bogus "kiddie" rating.

Given that a lot of the design decisions in 3e and 4e where supposedly made to facilitate computer game development, the lack of a turn based tactical games is just, well, dumb.
With just about every developers insistance on "real time" BS, using a particular ruleset in game develpment is pointless, as that type of game doesn't highlight anything of value to the systems they're claiming to emulate.



Not only was TOEE saddled with the requirement of a bogus kiddie rating at the last moment of the project, but shoehorning this requirement in by removing content was a direct cause of several game-killing bugs.  Co8 did a great job fixing this game and it really shines now, no thanks to Atari for not paying for the bug fixes.

I don't blame Daggerdale for being similar to Dark Alliance, since people liked it (even though I don't) but I DO blame it for claiming to be a 4e game - which is a lie.  It's not 4e.  Not even close.  I don't think it has to be turnbased to be 4e, but it's like they didn't try very hard to make it resemble 4e.  Even Neverwinter Nights did a fair to good rendition of 3E without being turn based.

(And I think Bioware's stories are pretty poor, but that's just me.  But they sure can make some good games.)

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."

"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon

"Challenge" is overrated.  "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."

"Falling down is how you grow.  Staying down is how you die.  It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”