Price of Force of Will

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So I play control Legacy in paper... I started playing before the huge price increase thanks to SCG.. However I can by no means play it online because of the price of Force of Will.. I have been told numerous times they will never make it again and it will never go below 100. I was wondering if there is even a small chance it will be put in a ftv or online deck of some sort.. And if there is likely no chance is there an email adress I can go to to express my feelings to someone on WoTC.....


Thanks!  
They only said it would not be printed in a future Masters Edition set.  If it is printed in an FTV in paper, it would online too.  Also, if it is printed as a judge promo in paper, I would expect it to be a MOCS promo afterwards.  That is just baseless speculation by me though, so take it as you will.
If it ever becomes a real problem, not just expensive but super-expensive and hard-to-find, they will find a way to get more into the system. Right now, it is not a problem. FoW is readily available from several dealers.

Before you dismiss Legacy online over the price of FoW, consider how cheap everything else in Legacy is online.

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I have considered it... It's still really expensive.... How is FOW not a problem it sells for 150 on MTGOTraders with 1 in stock... 150 seems a lot of money for a digital object...
bubba I want to say that it's not logical to say that, even if everything else in legacy is cheaper than in paper , having to buy a playset of a card that cost 150$ is not an acceptable entry fee for a format. I will be very honest here, I've been playing modo on and off for a few years now (but after MED1 was released so I was never able to try to draft FOW) and having to pay 600 dollars for 4 cards is the main reason I don't play legacy. My favorite constructed format always were the old extended first and legacy after that. Today the only constructed format I play (and I stopped playing in paper a long time ago) is commander, if there was a lower entry fee for legacy you can bet that I would probably be playing, but I just refuse to pay a minimum of 1200$ to build one deck.
bubba I want to say that it's not logical to say that, even if everything else in legacy is cheaper than in paper , having to buy a playset of a card that cost 150$ is not an acceptable entry fee for a format. I will be very honest here, I've been playing modo on and off for a few years now (but after MED1 was released so I was never able to try to draft FOW) and having to pay 600 dollars for 4 cards is the main reason I don't play legacy. My favorite constructed format always were the old extended first and legacy after that. Today the only constructed format I play (and I stopped playing in paper a long time ago) is commander, if there was a lower entry fee for legacy you can bet that I would probably be playing, but I just refuse to pay a minimum of 1200$ to build one deck.



This is what I am talking about.... It is not reasonabe to expect someone to pay 600 dollars for their deck in legacy.. And dont give me that "just play another deck" I believe that money should not restrict what deck you play... And Force of Will does exacly that.
bubba I want to say that it's not logical to say that, even if everything else in legacy is cheaper than in paper , having to buy a playset of a card that cost 150$ is not an acceptable entry fee for a format. ....

If you're gonna play in the big leagues, ya gotta shell out. They're out there. People are buying 'em at that price. Oh well. I'm still scrimpin' for a Bayou. I realize that the shiz is a supremely nice/powerful card, and it'd be wonderful to have a playset. Woo hoo! If I go blue, I guess I'll hafta scrimp for days again. But I rarely play blue, and I don't play in the big leagues. It'd be nice, tho...

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I don't see the difference between paying $600 for one playset of cards or spread out among a bunch of cards. In fact, having it locked up in one card is better because you *can* choose to not play it. Even if you don't think you should have to play another deck, at least with just one ridiculous card, there is the option. Much harder to avoid the high cost when it is spread out over a bunch of cards.

Read this article that compares the price of legacy decklists in paper and online. The info is a little dated (16 mo.), but I think the principles are still the same. Here's a slightly more recent (12 mo.) article. Maybe we can get danger to do an update of his article...

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"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
Last time FoW hit 150 we had 16 man ME1 Sealed and ME1ME1ME1 Drafts....I think we need them back again at least for a week...
I don't see the difference between paying $600 for one playset of cards or spread out among a bunch of cards. In fact, having it locked up in one card is better because you *can* choose to not play it. Even if you don't think you should have to play another deck, at least with just one ridiculous card, there is the option. Much harder to avoid the high cost when it is spread out over a bunch of cards.

Read this article that compares the price of legacy decklists in paper and online. The info is a little dated (16 mo.), but I think the principles are still the same. Here's a slightly more recent (12 mo.) article. Maybe we can get danger to do an update of his article...



Here's a much more recent anaylsis 1 month ago.  The gap may be closing, but it's still there and significant especially for decks w/o FoW or LED.  The only decks that really cost a chunk more online rather than real life are belcher and painter-stone (without recruiters) due to them being LED+relatively cheap stuff.
Last time FoW hit 150 we had 16 man ME1 Sealed and ME1ME1ME1 Drafts....I think we need them back again at least for a week...


I expect we'll see some of these before the year is out, but not before ME4 is off sale.  I don't think they'd want to confuse products by having two similarly named sets available for draft at once.  The week-long drafts also do very little to lower the prices of the really expensive cards.  But maybe after this weekend's Legacy GP people will sell. 
And dont give me that "just play another deck" I believe that money should not restrict what deck you play...

you are playing the wrong game it seems.
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FoW has been at 150 once before, when there was a Legacy GP I believe. It was not long ago that it was under 100 tix as well (early 2011 it was slowly rising towards 100). Apparently there is another Legacy GP and it seems FoW has peaked again. I think it is likely that they will take a dip in value after this. So if you just have yours as an "investment" or to to play with outside events, consider selling and buying them back later - in fact if a chunk of people start to do that the price will naturally reflect this by starting to go down. Although of course it is not possible to predict with certainty that they won't instead continue to rise so don't blame me if that happens. Speculating is inherently risky.

Still, it would be nice to see MED1 drafts and sealeds again.

Ivo.
Pretty sure WoTC will do something about FoW when the complaints change from "it's too expensive" to "I have the money but it's just too hard to get 4".

Besides all that bleating, the price will probably start coming down soon.  This isn't WoTC first trip to the circus - they are well-versed in how to handle this.
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In theory that should never happen, because if someone wants FoWs and have enough money to buy them the price should rise until some people will decide to sell them (at which point the same someone may no longer have the money, but that is another issue).

But it is certainly not the first time and the price is probably going down soon enough.

Conversely, it is also not the first time there is a "reserved list" (widely recognized for having been a bad idea, and there's stuff written on that by WotC own R&D members).
I still wonder what the heck was Worth thinking when he placed a de-facto reserve list on one of the most important cards of the format. The only thing that makes sense is that he intentionally wanted the entry barrier there, but only he knows for sure.

My hope with FoW is that paper Magic will go "over" Worth's promise and fix the situation he (intentionally?) got MTGO into.

Ivo.

P.S. I honestly have mostly praise for Worth and I think he knows how overall I much appreciate the improvements MTGO received since he started calling the shots, but obviously this is one instance where I don't agree with his decision.
If youre too stubborn to play a different deck, and think wizards should cater to your needs on acquiring this card..then perhaps you should send them an email.  THough being too stubborn to not play any of the decks with FoW just seems like childish footstomping.
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
FoW is in one of the commander decks coming out soon. No mtgo release date on those yet.

This is not based on Reality just wishful thinking.
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You guys do realize that a physical, paper copy of FoW is running at $60-85, right?
It's actually not all that big of a difference, in the grand scheme of things.  Doubly so if you look at the cost of everything else.  I know that I personally always think "FoW: that's worth $20", just because that's the price it had been for so many years, but it's been on the rise.  Shoot, we may soon see a day when paper FoW is equal to or greater in cost than MTGO FoW

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Right now, near-mint playsets of paper duals goes for around $3,299. You can get them online for $498 with little effort. Complaining that Force of Will costs $150 vs. $75 for paper while nearly every other online card is so much cheaper than paper (looking at you Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale) isn't a really fair comparision.

I'd be happy to sell anyone online playsets of dual lands and Force of Will's for 50% off their equivalent paper prices!
Right now, near-mint playsets of paper duals goes for around $3,299. You can get them online for $498 with little effort. Complaining that Force of Will costs $150 vs. $75 for paper while nearly every other online card is so much cheaper than paper (looking at you Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale) isn't a really fair comparision.

I'd be happy to sell anyone online playsets of dual lands and Force of Will's for 50% off their equivalent paper prices!



I've found that it is no use trying to appeal to people on those grounds, pcjr.  Their complaint is that a card shouldn't be that expensive, based on preconceived notions of value that ignore the supply and demand curve.  Trying to appeal to them on Total Cost of Ownership is rarely going to change the mind of someone who's decided that nothing should cost as much as FoW does online (Note the telltale "for a digital object" in one of his posts). 
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Everyone asks fo MED1 to come back until it actually does and people have to play it.
Everyone asks fo MED1 to come back until it actually does and people have to play it.



True that - I remember playing in the beta, and it was so awful to draft that even though I wanted some of the cards, I never bought a single pack when it went live.  I think I may have liked it even less than drafting Coldsnap, and that's a pretty serious thing to say.
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True that - I remember playing in the beta, and it was so awful to draft that even though I wanted some of the cards, I never bought a single pack when it went live.



The reward for those who did, is FOW. Don't begrudge them that, there's so little else in MED1...
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True that - I remember playing in the beta, and it was so awful to draft that even though I wanted some of the cards, I never bought a single pack when it went live.



The reward for those who did, is FOW. Don't begrudge them that, there's so little else in MED1...



Never said I begrudged anyone their FoWs.  Just wish I'd bought a bunch right away, when they were at 12 tix, but even that seemed expensive at the time.  I mean really, 12 tix for an in-print (at the time) uncommon?  Oh wait, they "printed" it at rare, but of course that's a completely separate gripe...
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The thing that is so obnoxious, is that it's bad for both the player base and Wizards for FOW to be this expensive (unless of course, Wizards doesn't want a lot of people playing Legacy, which is entirely possible).  There is absolutely no reason to not get more into the system.  Even if Worht insists on being bound by his ill-conceived promise not to put Force in another MED, he's a clever guy.  Surely he can figure out a way to get them into the system, without killing the price totally, but making it much more reasonable, as well as making a pile of money for Wizards.



What they should probably do is make a set from the MED1, Mirage Block, and Masques block.  This will help get undersupplied cards into the system on MTGO.
The thing that is so obnoxious, is that it's bad for both the player base and Wizards for FOW to be this expensive (unless of course, Wizards doesn't want a lot of people playing Legacy, which is entirely possible).  There is absolutely no reason to not get more into the system.  Even if Worht insists on being bound by his ill-conceived promise not to put Force in another MED, he's a clever guy.  Surely he can figure out a way to get them into the system, without killing the price totally, but making it much more reasonable, as well as making a pile of money for Wizards.



What they should probably do is make a set from the MED1, Mirage Block, and Masques block.  This will help get undersupplied cards into the system on MTGO.


Why?
Why is is bad for FoW to be expensive?
Why do they need to put more in the system?
Why?

Guess what? Chicken butt.

because people don't want to pay for them.  Simple as that there is no other reason, other than their self-entitlement
other than their self-entitlement


Pretty sure the word you're looking for there is opinion. I doubt most people feel "entitled" to FoW, but I would gander a lot of people hold the opinion that it should be cheaper.

Captain of the Lotus Farmers - Yes you have my glove in your face! 420 Posts: 6/11/2010

I was one of the many who wanted FOW to be cheap because i thought more people would play Legacy if it was cheap but i dont believe that anymore.
For the records,  I have 0 FOW.

For whatever it is worth, my opinion is no card should be as expensive as FOW is.  I look at MTGO as a game and a hobby and think having cards run $150 is crazy (and I know I do not need the card, but I may want it).  Then again I do not think any card should be over say $10-$20.  Unfortunately if that were the case I would lose a small fortune on my collection...
other than their self-entitlement


Pretty sure the word you're looking for there is opinion. I doubt most people feel "entitled" to FoW, but I would gander a lot of people hold the opinion that it should be cheaper.



Again, I want to know why people who feel FoW is too expensive want it to be cheaper.

What I'm really hoping to achieve by asking that question is to have them examine their motivation.

Currently, FoW is not in excessively short supply, although it is in high demand.

I see the same argument made with Wasteland. It was at 60. And people complained. It dropped in half, and you would think that the people who complained when it was at 60 would jump at the chance to buy it for half the price but, no, many of them still complained that 30 was too high.

I'm trying to make the point that with with a certain type of player, a specific price point is not the limiting factor. It's a perception issue. FoW would be too expensive if it were 15 or 20 tickets.
And if it wasn't FoW then it would be a different card. It doesn't matter, as danger stated, that the total cost of an online deck is less then an exact copy of the paper one.
This type of player wants to be able to play Legacy very cheaply. In fact, I'd argue they want to play Legacy more cheaply then Standard (say high to 4x of JtMS form me).

Which is fine, because everyone wants to pay as little as possible. But it's also unrealistic for a format where:
1. cards don't rotate
2. specific cards are known to be powerful
3. those cards which are known quantities tend to accrue

Edit:
I also need to make the point that we are talking about TOURNAMENT play; that is to say decks which are used to compete in sanctioned events with prizes. AFAIK, no casual deck needs 4x FoW. And if you are playing in order to win events then the outlay is perfectly justifiable in order to make that money back in prizes.
I don't have any Jace 2.0 because I can't justify spending the money on a card I'm not going to use to win packs.

Guess what? Chicken butt.

The thing that is so obnoxious, is that it's bad for both the player base and Wizards for FOW to be this expensive (unless of course, Wizards doesn't want a lot of people playing Legacy, which is entirely possible).  There is absolutely no reason to not get more into the system.  Even if Worht insists on being bound by his ill-conceived promise not to put Force in another MED, he's a clever guy.  Surely he can figure out a way to get them into the system, without killing the price totally, but making it much more reasonable, as well as making a pile of money for Wizards.



What they should probably do is make a set from the MED1, Mirage Block, and Masques block.  This will help get undersupplied cards into the system on MTGO.


Why?
Why is is bad for FoW to be expensive?
Why do they need to put more in the system?
Why?




I don't view FoW being expensive as a problem, I view the price uncertainty as a problem.  We just have no real idea what is going on inside WOTC's head with regard to card price.  I am an active classic and legacy player and I sold off my forces today just because of this uncertainty.  I didn't feel it was wise to have $600 invested in a playset when maybe it will be released as a promo or in a store-sold deck in the near future, or randomly get tons of MED drafts with a week's notice.

Am I willing to pay $600 for online FoW's? yes, even 800 or 1000 would be ok.
Heck, as an extreme example, if wotc said right now it would sell FoW singles perpetually in the store (and not release them any other way) for $200 a pop and once a year on a specific date, you could redeem FoW's for 200 tix a piece, I would have no problem with the investment.

I see this as a large barrier to entry.  Current prices in paper coupled with the growth of Legacy tells us that there is a significant population of people willing to play large sums of money to play this game, but without any notion of stability of the higher priced cards online, wotc cannot capture this entire population. 

Look at it this way, with prices where they are now, online legacy being established/promoted/talked about on major websites/advocated for playtesting by pros for over a year and at this point virtually mirroring paper (sans about 10 niche cards) and FoW being near its highest ever:
-The population of players who play paper Legacy are those for which a significant monetary investment is worth it to play perpetually
-The population of players who play online Legacy are those for which a significant monetary investment is worth it to play in the immediate future balanced against a potentially smaller monetary investment to play down the road.

In terms of willingness to invest in the hobby, the second population type is by definition a subset of the first, so Wotc is likely leaving customers on the table.

I'm not advocating anything as extreme as a reserved list, but just some more concretely stated notion of how/if cards like FoW will be released in the future to reduce the future price uncertainty.  For example, if Wotc tells us that for the next X years we will get MED/TSE/MVW nix tix drafts every Y months, I think this would be a step in the right direction.  Or, if they really think there are enough out there for the format to grow, telling us "We won't release any more FoW's for Z months/years, or ever" I'd be fine with that too.

Like it or not, the price of FoW is the most cited public signal for the price of Legacy online, rather than total deck cost.  Yes, you don't have to play FoW, and I myself will keep playing competetive decks without it; but for those outside of the mtgo scene or who don't like those archetypes, FoW is a proxy for the format as a whole.

EDIT: We see that people are comfortable spending a good deal even when they know the price will decline in a deterministic time frame.  Take JTMS for example, no one is whining that there Jace is dropping in value as it nears rotation,  people were able to price, with a fair degree of certainty, the time value they would get out of playing Jace in the immediate future.  Contrast this with the almost-no-heads-up reprint of duals in ME4.  This crippled the classic player base as many where upset that wotc just tanked them without notice...If wotc had said in the summer of 2010 that duals would be reprinted that winter, there would have been far less complaining as people could price, with a fair degree of certainty, their time in the format.
...

I don't view FoW being expensive as a problem, I view the price uncertainty as a problem.  We just have no real idea what is going on inside WOTC's head with regard to card price.  I am an active classic and legacy player and I sold off my forces today just because of this uncertainty.  I didn't feel it was wise to have $600 invested in a playset when maybe it will be released as a promo or in a store-sold deck in the near future, or randomly get tons of MED drafts with a week's notice.

Am I willing to pay $600 for online FoW's? yes, even 800 or 1000 would be ok.
Heck, as an extreme example, if wotc said right now it would sell FoW singles perpetually in the store (and not release them any other way) for $200 a pop and once a year on a specific date, you could redeem FoW's for 200 tix a piece, I would have no problem with the investment.

I see this as a large barrier to entry.  Current prices in paper coupled with the growth of Legacy tells us that there is a significant population of people willing to play large sums of money to play this game, but without any notion of stability of the higher priced cards online, wotc cannot capture this entire population. 

Look at it this way, with prices where they are now, online legacy being established/promoted/talked about on major websites/advocated for playtesting by pros for over a year and at this point virtually mirroring paper (sans about 10 niche cards) and FoW being near its highest ever:
-The population of players who play paper Legacy are those for which a significant monetary investment is worth it to play perpetually
-The population of players who play online Legacy are those for which a significant monetary investment is worth it to play in the immediate future balanced against a potentially smaller monetary investment to play down the road.

In terms of willingness to invest in the hobby, the second population type is by definition a subset of the first, so Wotc is likely leaving customers on the table.

I'm not advocating anything as extreme as a reserved list, but just some more concretely stated notion of how/if cards like FoW will be released in the future to reduce the future price uncertainty.  For example, if Wotc tells us that for the next X years we will get MED/TSE/MVW nix tix drafts every Y months, I think this would be a step in the right direction.  Or, if they really think there are enough out there for the format to grow, telling us "We won't release any more FoW's for Z months/years, or ever" I'd be fine with that too.

Like it or not, the price of FoW is the most cited public signal for the price of Legacy online, rather than total deck cost.  Yes, you don't have to play FoW, and I myself will keep playing competitive decks without it; but for those outside of the mtgo scene or who don't like those archetypes, FoW is a proxy for the format as a whole.


This is a very good post. And I completely agree with the fact that price uncertainty is an issue.
But I am also 100% certain that FoW will be released at some point in the future. I have no doubt whatsoever.
I'm of two minds on this issue.
I'd like to think that players should buy into foW without regard to price fluctuations, because they want to play the format. Once that money is spend then it shouldn't matter whether or not the value drops because you're using them. The whole point should be that you're getting into Eternal for the long term, so a reissue of FoW is irrelevant even if it drops the value by half or more.
But I'm also a realist, and I know that people want to be able to take out at least what they put in, if not more. And the uncertainty of when (not if) it gets reprinted is a barrier.
The only thing I can say is that if a players primary motivation is continued accrual of value then this probably isn't the format (or game) for them. Even if that leaves many potential players behind.

Guess what? Chicken butt.

...

...


This is a very good post. And I completely agree with the fact that price uncertainty is an issue.
But I am also 100% certain that FoW will be released at some point in the future. I have no doubt whatsoever.
I'm of two minds on this issue.
I'd like to think that players should buy into foW without regard to price fluctuations, because they want to play the format. Once that money is spend then it shouldn't matter whether or not the value drops because you're using them. The whole point should be that you're getting into Eternal for the long term, so a reissue of FoW is irrelevant even if it drops the value by half or more.
But I'm also a realist, and I know that people want to be able to take out at least what they put in, if not more. And the uncertainty of when (not if) it gets reprinted is a barrier.
The only thing I can say is that if a players primary motivation is continued accrual of value then this probably isn't the format (or game) for them. Even if that leaves many potential players behind.



I don't view it as needing to accrue value, just you (and the market as a whole) being able to price your time in the format or with a certain deck.  I edited in a snipit about this in my original post.  The uncertainty in when high value cards get reprinted doesn't allow you to price your time of entry, or pause and re-entry, into the format or a particular deck and leaves customers playing guessing games instead.  

Imagine if wotc never announced when standard rotation would happen, you just had to guess, sometimes it happens 1 month after release, sometimes it happens 2 years after release.  Do you think people would be as comfortable buying standard sets?  I don't think so; and this is what we face currently in eternal.

MTGO cards are fairly liquid, so the ideal of "perpetual investment" is not realistic.  It is very easy to enter and exit portions of the hobby in cycles by simple monetary exchanges...and this is in fact what most people do, they look at the price of a card they have, think about what it might be worth at some future point in time and price the time-value of playing/not-playing with that card.  You can't tell me you've never sold a card just because you were fine not playing with it at the moment and thought you could pick it up again later and cheaper. 
...

I don't view FoW being expensive as a problem, I view the price uncertainty as a problem.  We just have no real idea what is going on inside WOTC's head with regard to card price.  I am an active classic and legacy player and I sold off my forces today just because of this uncertainty.  I didn't feel it was wise to have $600 invested in a playset when maybe it will be released as a promo or in a store-sold deck in the near future, or randomly get tons of MED drafts with a week's notice.

Am I willing to pay $600 for online FoW's? yes, even 800 or 1000 would be ok.
Heck, as an extreme example, if wotc said right now it would sell FoW singles perpetually in the store (and not release them any other way) for $200 a pop and once a year on a specific date, you could redeem FoW's for 200 tix a piece, I would have no problem with the investment.

I see this as a large barrier to entry.  Current prices in paper coupled with the growth of Legacy tells us that there is a significant population of people willing to play large sums of money to play this game, but without any notion of stability of the higher priced cards online, wotc cannot capture this entire population. 

Look at it this way, with prices where they are now, online legacy being established/promoted/talked about on major websites/advocated for playtesting by pros for over a year and at this point virtually mirroring paper (sans about 10 niche cards) and FoW being near its highest ever:
-The population of players who play paper Legacy are those for which a significant monetary investment is worth it to play perpetually
-The population of players who play online Legacy are those for which a significant monetary investment is worth it to play in the immediate future balanced against a potentially smaller monetary investment to play down the road.

In terms of willingness to invest in the hobby, the second population type is by definition a subset of the first, so Wotc is likely leaving customers on the table.

I'm not advocating anything as extreme as a reserved list, but just some more concretely stated notion of how/if cards like FoW will be released in the future to reduce the future price uncertainty.  For example, if Wotc tells us that for the next X years we will get MED/TSE/MVW nix tix drafts every Y months, I think this would be a step in the right direction.  Or, if they really think there are enough out there for the format to grow, telling us "We won't release any more FoW's for Z months/years, or ever" I'd be fine with that too.

Like it or not, the price of FoW is the most cited public signal for the price of Legacy online, rather than total deck cost.  Yes, you don't have to play FoW, and I myself will keep playing competitive decks without it; but for those outside of the mtgo scene or who don't like those archetypes, FoW is a proxy for the format as a whole.


This is a very good post. And I completely agree with the fact that price uncertainty is an issue.
But I am also 100% certain that FoW will be released at some point in the future. I have no doubt whatsoever.
I'm of two minds on this issue.
I'd like to think that players should buy into foW without regard to price fluctuations, because they want to play the format. Once that money is spend then it shouldn't matter whether or not the value drops because you're using them. The whole point should be that you're getting into Eternal for the long term, so a reissue of FoW is irrelevant even if it drops the value by half or more.
But I'm also a realist, and I know that people want to be able to take out at least what they put in, if not more. And the uncertainty of when (not if) it gets reprinted is a barrier.
The only thing I can say is that if a players primary motivation is continued accrual of value then this probably isn't the format (or game) for them. Even if that leaves many potential players behind.




Accrual isnt the issue imo. Its uncertainty. I mean getting into legacy is a rather large sum of money, and you never can be sure what will happen in your life(car wreck, cancer, kids, lose your job etc), so one of the upsides to legacy has always been "your collection doesnt really lose value", so regardless of what you buy in at you can take a SMALL loss and get out, or if you are in long enough maybe break even/come out ahead. Dropping 600 on forces, for them to reprint them on a weeks notice is bad, since you feel slighted etc. Wether its rational or not can be debated, but it is the normal reaction of most people without a ridiculous amount of money.
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Sounds like folks are flirting with the idea brought up many times before around playing MTGO for a monthly fee.  I say flirting because it is isolated around having a set price for just FOW that can be bought and sold without fear of price fluctuations.  But if I had to guess you would not want this arrangement for all cards just the high price tourney staples.  If that is this case, it sounds like you do not mind losing a little money due to price fluctuations, however, the issue comes in when you potentially could lose a lot of money - which makes sense.  So maybe the real answer is have WOTC rent all "high" priced cards for a set price on a set time interval?

Now with this solution we just need to find a way to reimburse those who own the high priced cards currently for their lost investment...
I'd like to think that players should buy into foW without regard to price fluctuations, because they want to play the format. Once that money is spend then it shouldn't matter whether or not the value drops because you're using them.



Let me interrupt you here. I've always disagreed with this point but have so far been unable to express adequately why. And just now I thought, does this argument also work if I replace "FOW" with "car"?

Once I've bought my car, it shouldn't matter if its value drops dramatically since I'm gonna keep driving it anyway. Right? I've asked around among my colleagues and they seem to disagree.

Or... diamonds. Once I've bought a diamond its value becomes irrelevant since I'm gonna WEAR the damn ring. Right? (I am having trouble imagining anyone truly believing this.)

And you know what it is? If digital objects have an intrinsic value (as we are led to believe, and I do believe it, and ironically FOW is a perfect argument) we should be able to treat them like other (real world) valuable objects. And human beings appear to like it when their valuable stuff stays valuable or even appreciates in value. This expectation is an important factor in the decision whether to acquire a valuable object.

Now you're probably gonna say "well a diamond's sole purpose is to be valuable, and for a playing card that is at best a secondary aspect". Sure. FOW's high value is coincidental. I agree completely. Its primary purpose is to be played in a game. Its high value is a consequence. There's other stuff for which this is also the case. I'll use a random example: the tea pot.

Primarily, a tea pot is for serving tea. Yet some ppl, for some reason, collect tea pots. Not because someone decided to start selling collectible tea pots, no because the person just decided to turn an ordinary object into the thing they were going to collect. The fact that such collectors exist causes some of the rarer and more beautiful tea pots to become VERY valuable, especially old ones. To the point that some ppl collect tea pots JUST to own them. They don't even serve tea with them. There will certainly be some big tea pot collectors who are very unlikely to ever part with any of their tea pots.

So the value of their tea pots, once acquired, shouldn't matter, right? Well, you should talk to an insurance company about that.
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But I'm also a realist, and I know that people want to be able to take out at least what they put in, if not more.




Those people need to time travel back to 2007/2008 for FoW.  Seriously, when has this commodity market EVER rewarded people for getting in late to the game?  It basically always rewards people who buy when the product is on sale (or just after it) - and for damn good reason.


And the uncertainty of when (not if) it gets reprinted is a barrier.



That uncertainity is with every card in the game (except in paper on the reserve list).  It also resides in the cards becoming outmoded by other cards. 

Anyone looking for a guarantee will be severely dissapointed.

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...

So the value of their tea pots, once acquired, shouldn't matter, right? Well, you should talk to an insurance company about that.


You know that famous quote by Napoleon? "What is history, but a fable agreed upon?"

Well, what is value, but a price agreed upon?

You're approaching a very slippery area.
If one insurance company says that teapot is worth $100 and another says $10, then what's the value? What if it can't be replaced? What about sentimental value? To the owner it may be priceless.

An item created with a specific purpose can (almost) always be counted on to hold some value as long as it can be used for its intended purpose, but any additional 'collectible' or artistic value is always up for speculation and/or interpretation.

Which is why I said that I understand that 'investing' in FoW may be hard for some players, and that they should approach buying a card like that with the express purpose of gaining their enjoyment primarily out of its use, and not its potential increase in value.

Guess what? Chicken butt.

I think the problem with fow is that worth did say it wouldn't be reprinted. If he never made that promise I doubt it would be over 100 today. But now since mtgo has a one card reserve list people will speculate on fow.
Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!
I think the problem with fow is that worth did say it wouldn't be reprinted. If he never made that promise I doubt it would be over 100 today. But now since mtgo has a one card reserve list people will speculate on fow.



Again, that's not what Worth said.  He said it wouldn't go into any future MED sets.  They could make a set called "Archmage's Edition" and print FoW into it.  Magic Online does not have a reserve list, one card or otherwise.  Anyone who thinks the value of their FoW is safe because of Worth's promise is kidding themselves.

I had a huge post written up to respond to this thread, but Firefox ate it.  So I'll just say this:

If you don't want to pay $600 for a playset of FoW, maybe playing blue in Legacy is not for you.

If you don't want to drop thousands of dollars on Power 9, etc, maybe playing competitive Vintage is not for you.

If you don't want to keep reinvesting in the "next big thing" every few months, maybe competitive Standard is not for you.