2011 Community Cup Format Discussion: Unified Modern

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The 2011 Community Cup formats have been announced! Check out the article here. Use this thread to discuss your thoughts on the Modern format being used this year! Please do not discuss strategy as there is already a thread for that located here.

The 2011 Community Cup will be held at our Renton Headquarters from June 15th - June 17th!
Michael Robles Community Manager Wizards of the Coast Twitter: @michaelrobles
Any idea who made the team?   Okay, next week. And if they're going to have matching Zissou suits waiting for them...?

Thoughts on the format? Lemme try applying my favorite scheme to the format: Reanimator

*peeks on mtgo* Not much of anything. Undecided


At least old extended looks fancy pants reanimated.
So modern is what they are calling over extended ?
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i will be happy if "modern" becomes a staple tournament format. seems great. it means all my cards from timespiral aren't entirely worthless...
Yeah, this could be an interesting test run for a format to replace extended (or legacy...)

It's not overextended (as proposed by Evan), it cuts out 7th, Masques, Invasion, Odyssey, and Onslaught...which is quite a slew of cards to not have.  This should even be pretty different from an "Invasion-Forward" format.  I could be wrong, but I think there are a good bit of cards in those blocks that significantly change the format.

Sounds cool though.

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
Ooh, I like this format idea. It's a very neat way of circumventing the deck-legality-check problem Overextended has for Judges.

Golgari Grave-Troll is an interesting ban; I would have thought they'd take out Bridge from Below rather than just one dredger among many. Granted it's the biggest one, but still--presumably they just want to slow dredge down rather than kill it off. Most of the rest isn't all that surprising, except I'm very surprised to see Chrome Mox on the list. It's good, but banworthy? Hypergenesis isn't on the list, though, I notice--maybe the Mox is on the list as a slow-down attempt for that?

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I'm also pretty surprised they didn't ban Hypergenesis and I'm not sure if banning Grave-Troll was warranted.
Current decks: Type II: B/R Vampires Extended: Modern: U/G Scapeshift 1.5: Ichorid, Elf Combo
Yeah, it seems to me that this is the compromised "overextended."

What was the reasoning for 7th and Invasion down for "overextended?"


Modern slices out the speculators that bet on fetches coming back.
I'm a big proponent of anything that fill the role extended used to fill - a format where you can play with a wider selection of cards, but not the cards which were printed before power levels were considered as part of the development process.  The banlist definitely needs work though - you don't want to ban the entire best deck in the format, only the things that make it ridiculously powerful(skulclamp, disciple of the vault, we've been down this road before surely).
What was the reasoning for 7th and Invasion down for "overextended?"

Urza's Destiny was the last set printed before Wizards stopped adding cards to the Reserved List; thus, any format that consists solely of stuff newer than that won't be negatively affected by the Reprint Policy.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

What was the reasoning for 7th and Invasion down for "overextended?"

Urza's Destiny was the last set printed before Wizards stopped adding cards to the Reserved List; thus, any format that consists solely of stuff newer than that won't be negatively affected by the Reprint Policy.



Also that was the original starting point for MtGO, which while perhaps more arbitrary than the reasoning you present, is definitely a factor for many of the authors writing articles pushing that starting point.
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i like this format, could be a good idea for MTGO, too.
proud member of the 2011 community team
Seems like a fine idea to me.  Or at least, it seems like it's worth the attempt (I'm sure, after thinking about it, I'll come up with reasons why it's not as good an idea as it could have been, or at least not as good as just getting rid of the Reserved List; but since for some unexplained reasons WotC doesn't want to do that, I'll take what I can get).

Anyway, it's pretty much got to be a better format than Extended, which right now is just a rehash of the most annoying decks of the past four years.  And if the cardpool isn't quite as large as Legacy, eventually the difference between the two pools will become less significant.

That being said, Wizards really, really needs to reprint Force of Will, fast, or this format is going to be full of "Can you combo out on the first/second turn?  No?  Okay, I win" decks.  Right now it seems like the dominant deck in this format will be Elves, which can probably be ported over without much (any?) loss.  No, Mental Misstep isn't good enough to stop it.
I believe that modern can be an amazing format. It has qualities of eternal such as a card pool that doesn't empty out old cards( like extended does). It also deals with the reserved list and legacy staple cost problem by just ignoring it. Legacy suffers from high price cards and poor availability of said cards. This problem is fixed somewhat because this format only works with cards that wizards printed while they were thinking about what they were doing.
tl;dr version: I commend WotC for getting creative and experimenting with Format ideas, but still think Legacy is the way to go.  Or Overextended, if you must.  Modern might make a good replacement for Extended, however.

Ooh, I like this format idea. It's a very neat way of circumventing the deck-legality-check problem Overextended has for Judges.

Maybe, except that this breaks with many promotional printings.

Judge Foil Dark Ritual isn't legal despite a modern frame.
Most of the From the Vault printings aren't legal.
Judge Foil Sword of Fire and Ice is legal despite an old frame.

Not to mention if I see an old frame, I have to remember if it's been reprinted.  I mean, yes, it's not hugely different than Extended, but it's a compounded problem that only gets worse with time.  (An Urza's Legacy Blessed Reversal is legal, because it was in 8th.)

Is it any worse than Overextended?  No, but I don't think it's any better.

Golgari Grave-Troll is an interesting ban; I would have thought they'd take out Bridge from Below rather than just one dredger among many. Granted it's the biggest one, but still--presumably they just want to slow dredge down rather than kill it off.

Indeed.  Still strange, however.

Most of the rest isn't all that surprising, except I'm very surprised to see Chrome Mox on the list. It's good, but banworthy? Hypergenesis isn't on the list, though, I notice--maybe the Mox is on the list as a slow-down attempt for that?

I too, am perplexed by Chrome Mox.  I guess they feared the Mono-Blue Faeries list of Old Extended and wanted to slow things down.  (Like Dredge, above.)

Pssst, Chrome Mox isn't run in Hypergenesis... it makes for a bad cascade.

Seems like a Hypergenesis deck would be quite good in Modern.
Magic Judge Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Rules Theory and Templating: "They may be crazy, but they're good." --Matt Tabak, Rules Manager*
I think the new format is interesting.  It doesn't make me want to quit Legacy, but it got my attention more than adding Extended to FNM did.

I don't like the ban list, though.  Too many cards hating on Affinity and Dredge.

@The_Great_Galendo: Let's NOT reprint Force of Will.  That card defines almost any format its in.  Let's give the new format some time to blossom into its own thing, rather  than reprinting one of most dominating cards the game has ever seen and turning this into a pale imitation of Legacy.
Maybe, except that this breaks with many promotional printings.

Judge Foil Dark Ritual isn't legal despite a modern frame.
Most of the From the Vault printings aren't legal.
Judge Foil Sword of Fire and Ice is legal despite an old frame.

Not to mention if I see an old frame, I have to remember if it's been reprinted.  I mean, yes, it's not hugely different than Extended, but it's a compounded problem that only gets worse with time.  (An Urza's Legacy Blessed Reversal is legal, because it was in 8th.)

Is it any worse than Overextended?  No, but I don't think it's any better.

There is that; it's definitely not perfect, but I do think it's significantly better. Dropping four blocks and a core set's worth of non-new-frame cards will do that, and almost by definition the most-readily-available printing of every one of the legal cards will be the modern-frame one, so more people will tend to use those. (Save only Timeshifteds )

Pssst, Chrome Mox isn't run in Hypergenesis... it makes for a bad cascade.

Count that for a brainfart. I blame not following Extended at all.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

That being said, Wizards really, really needs to reprint Force of Will, fast, or this format is going to be full of "Can you combo out on the first/second turn?  No?  Okay, I win" decks.  Right now it seems like the dominant deck in this format will be Elves, which can probably be ported over without much (any?) loss.  No, Mental Misstep isn't good enough to stop it.



Combo Elves is missing two fairly important cards in Modern: Birchlore Rangers and Wirewood Symbiote. It's also very prone to being hated out.

Current decks: Type II: B/R Vampires Extended: Modern: U/G Scapeshift 1.5: Ichorid, Elf Combo
What was the reasoning for 7th and Invasion down for "overextended?"

Urza's Destiny was the last set printed before Wizards stopped adding cards to the Reserved List; thus, any format that consists solely of stuff newer than that won't be negatively affected by the Reprint Policy.



Also that was the original starting point for MtGO, which while perhaps more arbitrary than the reasoning you present, is definitely a factor for many of the authors writing articles pushing that starting point.

zammm and natedawg,

thanks for the answers.


I forgot, I think the original extended was 5th and dark down.
Strangely, the thing that would bug me most about Modern is having 10 duals (Shocklands) and only 5 fetches (Zendikar ones.)

Reprint the Onslaught Fetches, keep an eye on the banlist, and you might just have a good format to replace Extended with.  (Or maybe Extended just needs to be 5 years instead of 4?  Guess that's another topic.)
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I'm always in favour of interesting formats, and this seems like a remarkably clean implementation. I also love the idea that the community cup is potentially being used to showcase what could be a legitimate new tournament format. Unified deck construction is excellent for highlighting new metagame pillars. I agree that the ban list feels a little random, but I imagine that's largely a function of minimal testing and would be rectified before any larger scale promotion of Modern. My biggest question is when will we be able to play this online?
I'm always in favour of interesting formats, and this seems like a remarkably clean implementation. I also love the idea that the community cup is potentially being used to showcase what could be a legitimate new tournament format. Unified deck construction is excellent for highlighting new metagame pillars. I agree that the ban list feels a little random, but I imagine that's largely a function of minimal testing and would be rectified before any larger scale promotion of Modern. My biggest question is when will we be able to play this online?

Dear Wizards, please make Modern a legitimate paper format. I'd love to play it. Just don't screw Legacy, it doesn't deserve it and is amazing.

And I don't care where does Modern start from, Masques or Mirrodin, or what does it's ban list look like.

Just. Announce. It. Now.
Heya,

The Modern format is a big step in the right direction.  If I had my preferences, I'd rather see a format that was Mercadian Masques & 7th edition forward.  8th and up is okay.  I could live with it.  But it leaves out so many interesting and fun cards.  In paper form, I think Modern Magic would suffer from the same problem Extended always did.  Too big for a narrow field like Standard and too small for a wide-open field like Legacy.  So anyway, you wanted my oppinion:  Masques + 7th and up is preferable to 8th and up, and I know that there are plenty of players out there interested in such a format that would agree.
Cry
I'm not a fan of this as a format. It seems watery and weak, it won't stop the growth of Legacy, reason being people LIKE playing busted formats, with all the awesome tricks available.
I LOVE Legacy.
Every Legacy GP is more over-subscribed than the last and SCG Legacy opens are huge.
It doesn't do anything to cull the price hike and demand-vs-supply issue of the older formats.

I think it can easily replace the newest incarnation of extended (as that format is just junk at the moment), but in general I'm not sold.

-If this format is introduced to paper mt will there be supporting sales of reprinted desired cards?

I really don't think Jitte needed banning, it's an awesome card, but modern cards have sooo many options to shut it off
In fact banned list:


  • Ancient Den      X     

  • Seat of the Synod       X

  • Vault of Whispers   X

  • Great Furnace   X

  • Tree of Tales    X

  • Chrome Mox    X

  • Dark Depths    --Agree

  • Sensei's Divining Top   ---Agree

  • Skullclamp    ---Agree

  • Sword of the Meek   X

  • Umezawa's Jitte     X

  • Golgari Grave-Troll    ---Pseudo agree, limit, but not break dredge.

  • Hypergenesis?

  • bitterblossom?

  • some sort of limit upon zoo?


I disagree with most of the banned list.
I'm not sure what the intent of this format is. If it is ever going to be a non-rotating format going forward, it really should be IPA forward and 7th ed forward because of MTGO.
Of course this may just be a fairly arbitrary format just for use in the Community Cup. Selecting the break at the introduction of the new frame is not to my taste if it is to be a "sanctioned" format in the future.

I have more hopes of something like choose / build your own standard for a "non-rotating" alternative to Legacy to be worth adding a new format.

I have issues with the current implementation of Extended but I don't think this is a good answer to that.

Ivo.
Taking as a given that the reserved list kills Legacy over the medium term (five years? two?), there needs to be an Eternal format that someone can actually play. I respect Modern (which I will, as my curmudgeonly duty, call "Ugly Frames Only" or "UFO" forever) as an attempt at this, and obviously the Community Cup was picked as a testing ground to see if anyone likes it.

First, obviously this or something like it should immediately replace Extended in all format lineups. I can't recall ever hearing someone even defend Extended since the initial announcement of its double-Standard size. It should not replace Legacy, to avoid alienating players, and because Legacy won't need any help losing steam.

Second, I enjoy that the banned list basically says "dear lord, please don't let this format's debut be dominated by decks everyone already hates". The decks-already-hated problem is a main factor in the failure of current Extended.

Third, I would expect this format to take a few years to find its audience, namely, people who want to play tournament Constructed but (sensibly) hate Standard and don't have a couple grand to spend on Legacy cards. Making it FNM-legal from its official debut and having a GP every few months are key to bringing that about. Modern is a format I would actually consider trying instead of draft, which is currently way better than any Constructed format.
Personal Fan, Modern is a great leap in the correct direction.
Not banning Hypergenesis was a mistake, mostly due to liege of the tangle existing now. Turn 2(possibly 1) wins will be rather consistent from this deck.
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Absolutely fantastic idea! In fact I hope you can integrate it into mtgo for deckbuilder so I can start testing the format.
"Saviors of Kamigawa block"?

Modern seems pretty interesting. It obviously isn't a totally vetted tournament format, hence the sort of odd ban list, but it has potential to be pretty cool.
While I would definately prefer a format that was Masques and 7th Edition to Present, I can see some real advantages to 8thE and on.

1. It makes a format that would definately be distinct from Legacy and so not infringe on it as much.
2. It eliminates numerous potentially problematic cards like Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Mind's Desire, and Counterspell.
3. Judges can easily assess format legality by looking at the card frames.

There are some drawbacks, though.

1. 8th on is basically what Extended was when no one liked it or played it.  Why would this be different?
2. You miss out on really fun and interesting cards like Land Grant, Misdirection, Mogg Salvage, Artifact Mutation, Daze, and Stifle.
3. Without Allied Fetches, deck contruction requires more acrobatics than players are normally comfortable with in Eternal formats.

I like the idea of Modern.  I like the idea of OverExtended from Masks onward better.  I'd play either happily, especially if they were supported with Grand Prixs and PTQs.  Thank you for testing the waters at least to see if a new Eternal format would spark interest.

Peace,

-Troy
I love the sound of the Modern Format and hope that this will be something that will reach the paper card game tournaments too. Personally, I'm ok with the current Extended, but one cannot deny that there is a Huge gap between Extended and Legacy. There are so many cards that people have been wanting to build with but cannot due to the fact that Extended is just too few in blocks and legacy is just too fast of a format for most other cards to be viable. I believe that Modern can be that middle ground. The current ban list is shaky, agreed, as it is based primarily off of past experinces from other formats and assumptions on WOTC part, but in time it will be formally finalized when people start playing the format and understanding which decks are best.

I also hope that Wizards will be able to give in to supply and demand by printing "staple cards" for this format, as there is nothing on the reserved list they have to worry about. Event Decks and From the Vault series have been excelent for suppling cards to various formats, and hopefully they will be smart enough to something of the same effect for Modern. I can't wait to try this at my local card shop, and I'm sure many people will agree.

/Rant
Modern (If made a permanent, GP/PT format) could be a great format enjoyed by everyone between Casual and Pro. It could have powerful decks like caw-blade, jund, faeries, and Affinity all being smashed by some new decks that couldn't exist in any other format for legality or power reasons. Also, if it's an eternal format it will have none of the complaints of Standard or Extended.
I love the idea of modern - I've always wanted to get into an eternal format, but the initial fee is just way too high for my budget. I would personally prefer if it started in Masques block, but having only 8th edition frames would make checking legality easier.

Either way, if this format has tournament support, I will be playing it.
This is actually one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time! As someone who doesn't have the disposable income to keep up to date with standard or the new extended, or to buy Legacy staples, this format would get me back into the game on a regular basis, and I doubt I'm the only person who feels this way. Of course, any format is going to have its staples, but in this format everything would not only be fair game to reprint, (which would be a huge help) but also of a reasonable power level to be put in an actual set and played in standard, with a few notable exceptions. I would be the happiest Magic fan in the world if this format were to be used for more than just the one event. In fact, if it were to become a supported format, preferably supported at FNM, but I would be willing to go out and find other events, it would be about the best news I've heard in years!
format looks kinda interesting, no affinity, and no dark depths/vampire hexmage combo going on.  plus with the limitations of the cards, cant wait to see what decks they come up with.
Love the idea, I might have an accident in my pants if this turns out to be a sanctioned format. Please Wizards, make it so!
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This format would absolutely and without question be an amazing improvement over the current Extended. The banned list is wrong though. Chrome Mox doesn't need to be banned, since the format's fastest combo deck (Hypergenesis) can't even play it. Aether Vial should be banned, though, as well as Disciple of the Vault - even if you are banning all of the artifact lands. Golgari Grave Troll probably doesn't need a ban, unless you have plans to reprint Cabal Therapy (P.S. please reprint Cabal Therapy) or Breakthrough. Other than that, it looks about right, and I'd be very excited to see this as a new PTQ format.

The reason Extended has sucked for so long is that the rules regarding its rotation have changed rather abruptly several times over the last few years. First, ONS stayed in a year past its expiry date. Then, we prematurely lost Kamigawa and Ravnica block, followed quite closely by Time Spiral's rotation when many players liked Extended precisely because we were able to play with cards from those three blocks. I know that my interest in Extended - which up until the last change had been my favorite constructed format since I started playing competitive Magic in 2003 - waned completely when I realized that it was now composed of Standard decks that I had truly hated playing with and against for the past few years.

Introducing Modern as a new Eternal format does three things for tournament Magic:

1. Produces an exciting alternative for the dying Extended format.
2. Solves the old Extended format's problem of keeping track of set legality by creating a fixed start-date.
3. Gives people who want to invest in an Eternal format an alternative to Legacy, the barrier to entry of which climbs with every SCG 5K.

Please, Wizards: make this thing real.
Absolutely fantastic idea! In fact I hope you can integrate it into mtgo for deckbuilder so I can start testing the format.



Yeah they really need to do this ASAP. otherwise you will end up playing legacy vs banned cards as no one actually reads what you put in your description.
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It's a superb idea. It needs to be in paper Magic as well.
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This sounds like a fun format. Will be great to see some old favorite deck types get some play. Good luck everyone playling. Mtgo name- BETA FAN
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