05/16/2011 MM: "Cards Up My Sleeve"

42 posts / 0 new
Last post
This thread is for discussion of this week's Making Magic, which goes live Monday morning on magicthegathering.com.
In your bit on Toxic Nim, you said:  "The reason is simple: we chose to only put Phyrexian mana activations on one cycle of artifact creatures (the Souleater cycle above) and cards that had Phyrexian mana in their mana cost. "

Spellskite has something to say to you.
In your bit on Toxic Nim, you said:  "The reason is simple: we chose to only put Phyrexian mana activations on one cycle of artifact creatures (the Souleater cycle above) and cards that had Phyrexian mana in their mana cost. "

Spellskite has something to say to you.


not to mention hex parasite, and lashwrithe.
This is the happy swamp. Love it. I am red/blue, I think logically and act impulsively.
Well at least Mark is consistent with commments regarding cards like Leeching Bite. It was either going to have been his idea in the first place or he was going to hate it.
From a flavor perspective, Etched Monstrosity is one of my favorite cards in the set (probably second after Karn).  I think I would have liked it more if it had been an 8/8 with four -1/-1 counters on it for 4, though.

I feel that design really dropped the ball on Phyrexia's Core, though.  Why not a land with "T: Add 1 to your mana pool" and "T, pay 2 life: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool."?  That would have done a better job of reflecting Mirrodin's Core and made it feel more Phyrexian than the current version.

I also question having random Phyrexian cards causing one point of life loss (e.g., Geth's Verdict or Glissa's Scorn).  Two life would have felt much more flavorful.  Maybe it was power-level concerns?  Still, I'd have preferred them to be pushed a bit harder (and perhaps be less plentiful if necessary) for the flavor boost.  I feel a little bit of dissonance every time I see those cards.
Im sad that blue black tezzeret infect got NOTHING from NPH as far as artifact infecters goes. Glister elf is really good and the unblockable infecter might see play. The green black infect build does not have enough dual lands and just dies once the board stabalizes. I was hoping infect could be tier one. sad sad days for me.

"This card caused a lot of discussion. While I'm R&D's biggest poison advocate, I was very wary of giving poison directly to other players."

Proliferate. Hand of the Praetors.

"I much preferred that the player giving poison had to work a little to deliver the poison. I was okay with Ichor Rats in Scars of Mirrodin because it only gave one poison and was the only card like it in the set. "

Again: Proliferate. Hand of the Praetors.

Having players work for their victory is fine, but direct poison injections really aren't the effortless overkill you make it out to be. "(3)(B)(B): Deal 6 damage to target player and that player draws 3 cards." still looks somewhat balanced to me (just compare it to Lava Axe or Corrupt). While it is a significant amount of damage, giving away 3 cards are enough discouragement from playing it too often.

If you want to worry about poison powerlevels, take a look at the poison creatures that DO take you out in one hit.

"I wasn't too keen with granting three poison with one card, but development promised me that this card, while splashy on the surface, wasn't going to make players die out of nowhere as often as one might assume."

That was a concern? I admit this card can be a finisher in slower infect, but if you want 'dying out of nowhere' you should look elsewhere. Infect + Giant growth for instance.
---
Also, Phyrexia's Core is a bit of a disappointment. As a whole I really like the set, and I enjoy the many small throwbacks to old Phyrexia scattered througout. (Even small things, like the reinvention of Phyrexia's skirges). Maybe it just looks bad in comparison, but Core really fails to deliver on the flavor part. From it's name I'd expect something truly Phyrexian (throwback or new), or at least a truly corrupted version of Mirrodin's Core.
Instead we get a random colorless land, with lifegain reminescent of High Market  . Why did the core suddenly stop making rainbow mana? I thought this Phyrexia was supposed to embrace all colors? Sacrificing artifacts might have worked on old phyrexia (they sorta liked sacrificing for profit), but so far the New Phyrexians have shown little to no interest in sacrificing. Especially for lifegain, something they've never cared about either. 

The abilities are nice to play with, I just think they should have been on a different land.  (Mirran Encampment or something, Mirrans are the ones needing lifegain right now. It even works with their location, as the furnaces are a most sacrificial environment.). Mirrodin's Core actually seems more useful for Phyrexian decks as it is, and that makes the Vorthos in me sad.

Moments ago I was delighted by the opportunity to fill out the New Phyrexia survey; it sadly didn't have the "pick your three favorite cards of the entire set" and "pick your three least favorite cards of the entire set" sections that I especially enjoy, but it was still nice to weigh in on it.  (Damn was it hard to pick between Karn, Elspeth and Koth for "favorite planeswalker character".  I ended up giving Koth the nod because he's new, but it was not an easy choice even so.)

In my response on why I rated Metalcraft at 2 out of 7 stars, I pointed out Ghalma's Warden and Molten Psyche as two examples of why I don't care for the mechanic, but now that I look at Dispatch, it was a better example by far, as it combines both of my complaints - Metalcraft is sometimes nothing but a discount on some boring powerful effect that lets it be priced behind the curve so that you'll play artifacts like the block wants you to do, and other times the spell's metalcraft version is interesting but the possibility that you'll fail metalcraft makes the card useless at times.  Dispatch has both those problems at once!  While I want to be clear that I lovelovelove most of SOM block, metalcraft was very much a disappointment to me in terms of making an "artifacts matter" mechanic, because it just doesn't do anything interesting.  Something like "Mirrored - If you control three or more artifacts, copy this spell and choose new targets for the copy" for spells or "Ironclad - If you control three or more artifacts, this creature is indestructible" for creatures would have been cool, consistent, and very much to my preference, but metalcraft has no flavor and is just a collection of stilted card designs pretending they all have something in common.

Gut Shot was 2 damage in the file when I worked on flavor, and I didn't see anything wrong with Shock being free.  The decrease disappoints me severely, because with Marrow Shards as an option Gut Shot at 1 looks extremely weak.  I think they should have increased the mana cost instead of reducing the damage - whether it should have been !R!R (so still potentially free) or 1!R (putting it closer in potency to actual Shock) I'm not sure, but either way, this version is tragic to me.

I love the Souleater cycle except for Pestilent Souleater, which is the only one that doesn't have flavor text and also has a mechanic that I don't think it needed.  I'd rather they'd have given it deathtouch or something, specifically because there isn't much other deathtouch in the set; that would have meant other colors might actually be willing to pay the !B with life to get the effect, whereas as it stands they can just play one of their actual infect creatures and they'll never need this thing.  It's useless outside of Limited and that makes me very sad.
(Alternatively, since Phyrexian mana regeneration is undeniably a Cool Thing, and they didn't want to use Toxic Nim for it {which, by the way, is one of the strongest candidates for my favorite card in the set, just because of how cool an infect regenerating 4/1 is}, the black Souleater could have regenerated.  Since infect nixes regeneration, they could have afforded to use more of it in this set than they're usually comfortable with, just like they were able to push indestructible for the same reason.)

PS, Mark, Capricious Efreet destroys enchantments.  Get over it already; the color pie is not and should not be as rigid as you think.  Every color needs to be able to deal with problems that can make it lose the game; burn decks autolose to COP Red and solutions should be available. 
I love Leeching Bite and Beast Attack; the green no-creature-kill rule needs to be bent like a Flubber Gumby every chance we get, as long as it's not actually broken with a "Destroy target nongreen, nonartifact creature" spell or the like.  So long as the flavor is strong, every color should have a way, however roundabout, to do everything.  The idea of having a Rock-Paper-Scissors balance among the colors is a good one in theory, but you'd have to rewrite the game from the ground up to make it actually work, because from day 1 Magic's colors have never been balanced in such a way, and they never will be as long as the old prejudices still mandate certain absolutes like "red has to autolose to enchantments" or "only black can destroy anyone's hand".  (There isn't enough blue discard to have more than a mildly inconvenient effect on hand sizes.)

Which is also why it should be possible (though difficult) to remove poison counters.  Seriously I don't know where you got the idea that poison had to be uncurable or it wouldn't feel like poison; I'm pretty sure nobody but you thought that.  IRL we have such things as antitoxin.  (Granted we don't have phyrexian oil, but phyrexian oil isn't really a poison anyway, it's a disease, though I can live with using poison counters to represent it instead of introducing "disease counters" that had the same function.)
My New Phyrexia Writing Credits My M12 Writing Credits
As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi

Proliferate. Hand of the Praetors.


Mark talked about those at the time, while discussing what amout of infect he was comfortable with.  He's being consistent.


Your choice of quotes though does make me wonder what Mark thought of Triumph of the Hordes though, because that strikes me as the biggest poison-out-of-nowhere card in the set.



If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

I actually think Leeching Bite is okay. In the scheme of all the other "reversed" phyrexian effects, it doesn't really stand out. It certainly struck me far less than white causing life loss.
Well at least Mark is consistent with commments regarding cards like Leeching Bite. It was either going to have been his idea in the first place or he was going to hate it.


I was slightly happy that he found it to be off color, but I still don't understand why he would want either of those in white.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

Leeching Bite has one major difference compared to Hornet Sting, it doesn't directly damage a player.

If Leeching Bite were to go in any color other than green it should go to black.  This is primarily because effects with "Target creature gets +x/+x, another target creature gets -x/-x" usually appear on GB multicolor cards. 
IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)
But green isn't the color of transformation—that's blue. So this card is a little out of place, but not for the reason many think at first glance.



Lorwyn had both Wings of Velis Vel and Lignify, and Snakeform is a hybrid and thus should be okay in both colors. Has this changed? What does MaRo think of this now?

If Leeching Bite were to go in any color other than green it should go to black.

Well I think that's the point - putting Black effects in other colors.  That sort-of makes this an alternate universe Torment.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

I got the Phyrexia's Core "reference", but I still dislike it greatly. Why? Because it's very paltry as references go! It's an uncommon land, with a similar name and art. And... what? The mechanic has... nothing at all to do with the original. Phyrexia is about artifacts, sure, but New Phyrexia is about all five colours as well. Why couldn't this have been a five-colour land like Mirrodin's Core was!

I'm glad you kept the Phyrexian mana activation off Toxic Nim, purely because I like consistent cycles, and hate it when a card breaks a cycle. (Wanderwine Prophets is one such that leaps to mind.) Although that leaves me very conflicted about Spellskite, because that's an utterly delightful card that I want to get loads of, but I think it is also out of cycle. Hmmmm.

I also would have preferred Leeching Bite not be in green. I mean, has everyone forgotten Steal Strength?

As for Xenograft, it is great that blue finally gets Conspiracy, but a startling amount of Conspiracy's applications involve it applying to places other than the battlefield, most notably the library. I have a Goblin Conspiracy deck with Moggcatcher and Goblin Wizard which can't use Xenograft, a Rebel Conspiracy deck with Rebels like Defiant Vanguard that can't use Xenograft, and a Scarecrow Conspiracy deck which would have to lose Leaf-Crowned Elder if it were to use Xenograft (although the Endrek Sahr, Master BreederReaper KingXenograft combo works just as well as with Conspiracy).

(Ohhkay... it looks like the autocard mouseover Javascript doesn't work with Xenograft: Xenograft. I wonder if it works with Xenic Poltergeist or Xanthic Statue either? Nope, seems not. Wow, people still write code assuming that X is a letter that nobody uses? Yuck...)
I think everybody knows the bit from Alien by now.
"Counterspelling is one of the most unfun things in the game," I said to Aaron. "Why allow four other colors to do it?"



It's insane something like counterspells appears only in a single color. What if tutoring, destruction or combat tricks would only appear in 1 color?
But green isn't the color of transformation—that's blue. So this card is a little out of place, but not for the reason many think at first glance.



Lorwyn had both Wings of Velis Vel and Lignify, and Snakeform is a hybrid and thus should be okay in both colors. Has this changed? What does MaRo think of this now?




MaRo has this weird imagination block when it comes to green and the colour pie. When it's any other colour, it's fine to reinterpret the colour pie, stretch the definitions, core vs. mantle, whatever. But for green the colour pie is suddenly all about restrictions.

Personally I think Humility-like effects make perfect sense in green. Green wants straight-up creature combat, and is opposed to the "tricky" colours blue and black, so giving green a way to force its opponents to come out and fight by turning their tricky cards into vanilla creatures seems entirely green. (My only issue with Lignify was that it created 0-power creatures; it never seemed very green to encourage the opponent to hide behind walls.) Transforming things into vanilla creatures is a genuinely interesting way for green to pursue its stated flavour goals, answer problem cards, and actually direct the course of the game instead of sitting back and praying that the opponent doesn't have a strategy of their own. Naturally, MaRo's against that.


"Counterspelling is one of the most unfun things in the game," I said to Aaron. "Why allow four other colors to do it?"

 

So those other colors become more viable. It's insane something like counterspells appears only in a single color. What if tutoring, destruction or combat tricks would only appear in 1 color?




MaRo doesn't think that balancing the power level of the colours is a design issue.
"Counterspelling is one of the most unfun things in the game," I said to Aaron. "Why allow four other colors to do it?"



So those other colors become more viable. It's insane something like counterspells appears only in a single color. What if tutoring, destruction or combat tricks would only appear in 1 color?



Counterspells are a specific subset of destruction spells - they can "destroy" any card but only at the moment it's being played, just as "destroy target permanent" only works when the card is on the battlefield, or mill only works when it's in a library, or discard only works when it's in a hand.  The battlefield is obviously the most important zone, so destruct effects targeting it have to be subdivided by type - black kills creatures and lands, red kills artifacts and lands and creatures with not too much toughness, white kills enchantments and combatant creatures and "kills" any permanent in a reversable way - it's not perfect but in any event, counterspells and discard are just two other tools that can "destroy" any card, and they're in some of the colors that are least talented at destroying things on the battlefield.
My New Phyrexia Writing Credits My M12 Writing Credits
As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
Counterspells are a specific subset of destruction spells - they can "destroy" any card but only at the moment it's being played, just as "destroy target permanent" only works when the card is on the battlefield, or mill only works when it's in a library, or discard only works when it's in a hand.  The battlefield is obviously the most important zone, so destruct effects targeting it have to be subdivided by type - black kills creatures and lands, red kills artifacts and lands and creatures with not too much toughness, white kills enchantments and combatant creatures and "kills" any permanent in a reversable way - it's not perfect but in any event, counterspells and discard are just two other tools that can "destroy" any card, and they're in some of the colors that are least talented at destroying things on the battlefield.



The problem is that there's very little that interacts with counterspells, except for other counterspells. Destruction effects interact with stuff like regeneration/shroud/ETB abilities/sacrifice abilities. Sure, perhaps 'destruction' is too broad, but how about combat tricks? Or Flying? There's a reason Intimidate includes artifact creatures. 
Aaron Forsythe tells a different story about Chancellor of the Dross.


Besides, what the heck is going on in the picture of Mental Misstep? It looks like a Myr is getting countered, but there are no CC1 Myr in Scars block.
I can understand Mark's problem with Leeching Bite, but to me it actually fell into the exception he listed - creatures "fighting". The flavor actually works for me given that it's effectively the creature taking a chunk out of its enemy in order to strengthen itself.
Rules Advisor. Used to play a lot of old Extended tournaments, now I just play prereleases and casual kitchen-table games with friends. My regular decks, many of which have been evolving for years: Contested Cliffs Beasts Coastal Piracy Hana Kami Spirit recycling Rout Multiplayer control Seizan, Perverter of Truth Commander
But green isn't the color of transformation—that's blue. So this card is a little out of place, but not for the reason many think at first glance.



Lorwyn had both Wings of Velis Vel and Lignify, and Snakeform is a hybrid and thus should be okay in both colors. Has this changed? What does MaRo think of this now?




MaRo has this weird imagination block when it comes to green and the colour pie. When it's any other colour, it's fine to reinterpret the colour pie, stretch the definitions, core vs. mantle, whatever. But for green the colour pie is suddenly all about restrictions.

Personally I think Humility-like effects make perfect sense in green. Green wants straight-up creature combat, and is opposed to the "tricky" colours blue and black, so giving green a way to force its opponents to come out and fight by turning their tricky cards into vanilla creatures seems entirely green. (My only issue with Lignify was that it created 0-power creatures; it never seemed very green to encourage the opponent to hide behind walls.) Transforming things into vanilla creatures is a genuinely interesting way for green to pursue its stated flavour goals, answer problem cards, and actually direct the course of the game instead of sitting back and praying that the opponent doesn't have a strategy of their own. Naturally, MaRo's against that.


I think Beast Within could quite plausibly be either green or blue. Yes, it's transformation, but it's transformation into a medium-sized vanilla creature. In addition, while direct damage and direct creature removal are not very green, it has plenty of noncreature removal - Naturalize and many variants, artifact-specific removal, and a little land destruction here and there - and it always has.

That being said, Snakeform, Diminish and Ovinize really couldn't be green. Why? Because they make creatures small. Green doesn't do that. It's probably the worst color there is at making creatures small, except for Leeching Bite in this same set, probably some kind of early installment weirdness before the color pie was nailed down, and weird once-in-a-lifetime effects like using Gigantiform on a creature that's naturally bigger than 8/8. (And Leeching Bite seems fine to me, by the way, as a twist on Predatory Urge and similar effects, which are usually green.) Even red has flanking and lots of random-like disadvantage effects. So while green can transform things, it should never transform them into things smaller than, say... 3/3. (Lignify is a questionable example, but I'd give it a pass to fit with that block's theme. After all, if you have Doran, the Siege Tower out, then a Lignified creature is effectively 4/4, right?
Get over it already; the color pie is not and should not be as rigid as you think.  Every color needs to be able to deal with problems that can make it lose the game.


This.

I think too much stock is put into the sanctity of the color pie to the detriment of the game.  The modularity of magic is part of its appeal.  While limiting a color's ability to do something is positive for the game, excluding particular mechanics reflexivly is not.  Hornet Sting and Leeching Bite are not anything close to as powerful as other colors get in terms of removal but it gives players the ability to do something with green they might want to be able to do.  What I'm trying to say is that the weakened version of affects found in other colors does not ruin magic; it enhances the ability of players to take advantage of the modularity in the game and use weak versions of other effects without a particular color being required.
TBH, the part that bugged me the most about the Mental Misstep was the "counterspelling is one of the most unfun things in the game" bit.
blah blah metal lyrics
Lets face it, counterspell is one of most unfun things when you're on the receiving end. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't exsist

Besides, what the heck is going on in the picture of Mental Misstep? It looks like a Myr is getting countered, but there are no CC1 Myr in Scars block.



...probably there aren't any, because they all got Mental Misstepped.

Besides, what the heck is going on in the picture of Mental Misstep? It looks like a Myr is getting countered, but there are no CC1 Myr in Scars block.



...probably there aren't any, because they all got Mental Misstepped.


Well, he's right, there aren't any 1 CMC Myr in Scars block. Assuming that's an artifact creature from Scars block, there are only three options, and it looks more like Signal Pest than Hex Parasite or Vector Asp. If it's a Myr, there are again only three options: Myr Mindservant, Myr Moonvessel and Myr Servitor. And while we're at it, what's with the flames on its hand?

So, some possibilities:
It's a Signal Pest, and you just can't tell with all the flashy stuff.
It's supposed to be a Myr, but the artist didn't get an accurate description of what a Myr looks like, isn't very good, or didn't care about scrupulous accuracy.
Design had a 1 CMC Myr in Scars block but it got bumped up to or higher by Development.
The Myr is a normal Myr, but the spell being countered is a burn spell that was cast on it.
It's not supposed to be a Myr or any other creature in particular, just a smallish creature that fits the New Phyrexia style.

Or, my personal guess: Someone tried to play an Origin Spellbomb on turn two or later and use it right away, but the opponent said "not so fast". (Seriously, I think the "just a smallish creature" is actually the most likely, but I do like the idea of representing what happens when a player tries to use an ability of a permanent before the opponent has had a chance to respond to its casting. This is a scenario that will probably happen often with Mental Misstep.)
TBH, the part that bugged me the most about the Mental Misstep was the "counterspelling is one of the most unfun things in the game" bit.

That's true, but that was because there were no tools to fight them, and when I say "no tools" I really mean "playable in nonblue decks".
Actually, I saw Beast Within as reenacting the same Alien scene as Parasitic Implant. Beast Within "destroys" something, and the beast is "within", so...
The souleater cycle is directly responsible for 2 of my 3 match losses at the release event. I SERIOUSLY underestimated those guys. My other match loss was to a mono-green super-fast infect deck.

I pulled a Mental Misstep, then traded it to the shopkeeper for another pack, which got me an Urabrask the Hidden.
Aaron Forsythe tells a different story about Chancellor of the Dross.Besides, what the heck is going on in the picture of Mental Misstep? It looks like a Myr is getting countered, but there are no CC1 Myr in Scars block.



That's not a Myr, it's a fully Phyrexianized goblin.  There was an Arcana a while back in which they showed the rather skeletal and blasted-looking final result of the "gulper eel" goblins being compleated.  Granted, there aren't any 1-CMC Goblins in NPH to give us a good example, but you can sort of extend the logic to any 1-CMC goblin in history and say this is the NPH equivalent of a Goblin Lackey or whatever.
My New Phyrexia Writing Credits My M12 Writing Credits
As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
I got the Phyrexia's Core "reference", but I still dislike it greatly. Why? Because it's very paltry as references go! It's an uncommon land, with a similar name and art. And... what? The mechanic has... nothing at all to do with the original. Phyrexia is about artifacts, sure, but New Phyrexia is about all five colours as well. Why couldn't this have been a five-colour land like Mirrodin's Core was!


They decided to "tweak" it. You know, like they "twaked" Taiga to produce Kazadu refuge

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
I got the Phyrexia's Core "reference", but I still dislike it greatly. Why? Because it's very paltry as references go! It's an uncommon land, with a similar name and art. And... what? The mechanic has... nothing at all to do with the original. Phyrexia is about artifacts, sure, but New Phyrexia is about all five colours as well. Why couldn't this have been a five-colour land like Mirrodin's Core was!


They decided to "tweak" it. You know, like they "twaked" Taiga to produce Kazadu refuge



There is a difference.  Mirrodin's Core wasn't a really strong land and didn't really need to be weakened but they did it anyway.  The original duals, however, were considered too strong so they have been making many dual lands ever since that have some sort of weakness so that more basic lands are used.
IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)
I got the Phyrexia's Core "reference", but I still dislike it greatly. Why? Because it's very paltry as references go! It's an uncommon land, with a similar name and art. And... what? The mechanic has... nothing at all to do with the original. Phyrexia is about artifacts, sure, but New Phyrexia is about all five colours as well. Why couldn't this have been a five-colour land like Mirrodin's Core was!


Actually, it's a great reference, because it has everything to do with the original. The original could be tapped for colorless mana, or you could get mana of any color from it but you had to tap it for a charge counter first, basically tapping it once for colorless mana or twice for colored mana, right? Well, remember, Phyrexians use life as mana as any color. So using the lifegain ability twice is the equivalent of tapping it twice for colored mana.

Yes, sure, in terms of playability they took a mediocre card and almost definitely made it worse, like people said later in this thread. Very few people will play it, even in decks heavy with Phyrexian mana. But in terms of flavor, it fits perfectly: sacrificing things and using life as a resource. It's just a bit more subtle than putting all that on one card.
You can Proliferate Mirrodin's Core to save it some extraneous taps.  Phyrexia's Core can't be Proliferated.  This is a little sad.

It is an interesting roundabout sort of reference, but it doesn't work very well given that you are sacrificing artifacts and can only spend the resulting "mana" on a small handful of spells.  It definitely seems like they should have done the "T, Pay 2 life: Add 1 mana of any color" version.  Then again, perhaps they did this and found it borked, or just figured it would be borked and never bothered to try it.
My New Phyrexia Writing Credits My M12 Writing Credits
As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
I got the Phyrexia's Core "reference", but I still dislike it greatly. Why? Because it's very paltry as references go! It's an uncommon land, with a similar name and art. And... what? The mechanic has... nothing at all to do with the original. Phyrexia is about artifacts, sure, but New Phyrexia is about all five colours as well. Why couldn't this have been a five-colour land like Mirrodin's Core was!


They decided to "tweak" it. You know, like they "twaked" Taiga to produce Kazadu refuge



There is a difference.  Mirrodin's Core wasn't a really strong land and didn't really need to be weakened but they did it anyway.  The original duals, however, were considered too strong so they have been making many dual lands ever since that have some sort of weakness so that more basic lands are used.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDEuLXLNGBo&t=0m...

Zammm = Batman.

It's my sig in a box
58280208 wrote:
Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
192334281 wrote:
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
57092228 wrote:
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
56995928 wrote:
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul: Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay." I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board. Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
144543765 wrote:
195392035 wrote:
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
117639611 wrote:
198869283 wrote:
Oh I have a standing rule. If someone plays a Planeswalker I concede the game. I refuse to play with or against people who play Planeswalkers. They really did ruin the game.
A turn two Tibalt win?! Wicked... Betcha don't see that everyday.

The Pony Co. 

Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
57461258 wrote:
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
57461258 wrote:
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
57461258 wrote:
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
92481331 wrote:
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now. O' Jesus Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle. Amen.
92481331 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic, giving you time to set up your silly combo. Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
[quote=ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.[/quote]
56756068 wrote:
56786788 wrote:
.....would it be a bit blasphemous if I said, "PRAYSE RPJAYSUS!" like an Evangelical preacher?
Perhaps, but who doesn't like to blaspheme every now and again? Especially when Mr. RPJesus is completely right.
56756068 wrote:
I don't say this often, but ... LOL
57526128 wrote:
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
57042968 wrote:
111809331 wrote:
I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
Am going to stop you right there... it's RPJesus... he's always sarcastic
58335208 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
112114441 wrote:
we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
I lol'd.
56287226 wrote:
98088088 wrote:
Uktabi Orangutan What the heck's going on with those monkeys?
The most common answer is that they are what RPJesus would call "[Debutantes avert your eyes]ing."
56965458 wrote:
Show
57461258 wrote:
116498949 wrote:
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_... Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right? Right.
57545908 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
58397368 wrote:
58222628 wrote:
This just won the argument, AFAIC.
That's just awesome.
57471038 wrote:
57718868 wrote:
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players. And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it. He/It got me with Light of Sanction, which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
71235715 wrote:
+10
100176878 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
57078538 wrote:
heaven or hell.
Round 1. Lets rock.
GG quotes! RPJesus just made this thread win!
56906968 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
143359585 wrote:
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad, things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed.
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
On what flavor text fits me:
57307308 wrote:
Surely RPJesus gets Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius?
56874518 wrote:
First: I STILL can't take you seriously with that avatar. And I can take RPJesus seriously, so that's saying something.
121689989 wrote:
I'd offer you a cookie for making me laugh but it has an Upkeep Cost that has been known to cause people to quit eating.
56267956 wrote:
I <3 you loads
57400888 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
"AINT NO LAWS IN THE SKY MOTHER****." - Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran
10/10. Amazing.
I prefer a wider, more pragmatic approach to the color pie. MARO's approach sometimes seems a bit too narrow. Bring back Desert Twister!

Great article though.

EDIT: BTW the Phyrexian mana is a fantastically cool, flavorful mechanic that makes for deep gameplay. WOTC did a great job on this set.
EDIT: BTW the Phyrexian mana is a fantastically cool, flavorful mechanic that makes for deep gameplay. WOTC did a great job on this set.



Agreed on both counts.  It could have been even better than it was, but it was spectacular nonetheless.
My New Phyrexia Writing Credits My M12 Writing Credits
As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
Orbifold:

"Personally I think Humility-like effects make perfect sense in green. Green wants straight-up creature combat, and is opposed to the "tricky" colours blue and black, so giving green a way to force its opponents to come out and fight by turning their tricky cards into vanilla creatures seems entirely green. (My only issue with Lignify was that it created 0-power creatures; it never seemed very green to encourage the opponent to hide behind walls.) Transforming things into vanilla creatures is a genuinely interesting way for green to pursue its stated flavour goals, answer problem cards, and actually direct the course of the game instead of sitting back and praying that the opponent doesn't have a strategy of their own. Naturally, MaRo's against that."

Green is the color of self-improvement, where creature combat does not mean "combat tricks," but the idea that a big creature gets bigger to eat another, not makes it smaller. A green creature does not feel improved when eating something that got magically stripped of its power, only when it itself wins through its own superiority. I actually wonder where Green gets Growth effects in the first place, but that can be explained as a "only +" aspect rather than "combat tricks."
"Possibilities abound, too numerous to count." "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969) "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion Backs)
Agree with what people are saying about the Phyrexia's Core.  Would have felt better if it was a copy of Mirrodan's Core, with the exception that, in order to get the charge counter, you had , sacrifice an artifact.

Mycosynth Fiend...stopped clock factor at work, I reckon.  I like it though, as well as the 3/1 that only gets infect if the opponent has poison counters.  Good cards for limited.

Thing about Karn not being on the phyrexian side...sorry, but change the lore.  Or tweak it at least so that, while he isn't phyrexian (no planeswalker has the imprint anyway, so him not having one is fine), he's Karn Enslaved, rather than liberated.  There's nothing in the set's lore, as in what is printed on the cards as flavor text, that indicates the Mirrans had any sort of victory, like freeing Karn would have been.  The mirrans got stomped.  Phyrexia won.  Why in the world in Karn running free as anything other than the new Phyrexian leader?  Where's the oil that started it all?  I shouldn't have to read a book to understand something like this, something that ought to be a huge, huge plot point.  Liberating Karn?  That ought to be the basis of the next visit to Mirrodan.

A green creature does not feel improved when eating something that got magically stripped of its power, only when it itself wins through its own superiority."



It does when Phyrexia is involved.  Phyrexia is all about taking flesh and blood and "improving" it.  It would make sense for the nature side of Phyrexia to do that naturally.  It also relates to other cards that have gotten a hint of evil from being phyrexian.  A Soul's Attendent that brings pain to your opponent for his creatures, rather than life for you.  An unsummon that causes the loss of a point of life.  That sort of thing.  And having a big old bite taken out of me would definitely weaken me a bit