Gaining skill ranks outside of lvling?

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simple question as the title says - I've been out of the game for a bit and can't remember if their are legitimate ways to gain skill ranks outside of lvling?

*Note - I'm talking about ranks - not bonuses.

No. There are temporary ways of getting close to this (i.e. items that grant feats, choosing the Open Minded feat to gain 5 skill points), but there's nothing permanent, and nothing to my knowledge raises the maximum ranks in a skill (your level +3, or half of that for skills that aren't class skills for any of your classes).

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Not unless you consider Hit Dice to be separate to just gaining a level; then I guess contracting lycanthropy would count since you gain skill points for each Hit Die.

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens

Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.

My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Dang - I ask because the of the Feat - Graft Flesh - requiring 10 ranks in heal.

I'm not saying its too much - I was just trying to find a way to access it quicker.

I'm trying play a fleshwarper - which confuses me with the whole 4 heal versus the 10 required for the feat but w/e.
Skill ranks, along with BAB, are  only available through levels.  This is why these two measures are most commonly used as prereqs for PrC as it is (or at least should be) impossible to "cheat" on them to gain access earlier.
True, and understandable.

I wasn't trying to cheat to gain the class - I'm just trying to wrap my head around the situation a bit.

I really like the class idea, but I'm not sure its worth it when it takes so long to gain access to it.
There may also be a way of gaining the feats as bonus feats that ignores their prerequisites (not all bonus feats do this, but some do, typically if they specify a specific feat instead of just "a bonus feat"). If that's the case, then you may be able to access Fleshwarper sooner, which may explain the difference in rank requirements.

However, stock? If the feat requires 10 ranks in Heal, there's no way to obtain it prior to having 7 hit dice. Which is actually quite common - most PrCs can be accessed sometime between 5th and 7th level. It's RARE that you can get one sooner (i.e. Survivor, or any of the cheeseball entrances to other PrCs like the level 1 qualification for Eldritch Knight).



(Actually, not true: I checked my notes, and it turns out there is one method of raising the maximum ranks in a skill to higher than your level +3. I'm away from my books, but my notes say it's in Cityscape: the Primary Contact feat. It raises your maximum ranks in a guild's favored skill by 1 (to your level +4). Doesn't grant you the skill points, though it does raise the limit.)

EDIT: My notes reminded me of another cheeseball trick: Bloodlines. Once you have a bloodline, you have to spend XP on one or more "bloodline levels" to activate it. These levels do not count toward your ECL and do not actually grant hit dice, skill points, saving throw bonuses, or similar... but do raise your effective level for several purposes, including, explicitly, maximum skill ranks.
A major bloodline requires you to "buy" three levels to unlock its full potential, and lists levels by which you have to have done this... but nothing stops you from buying them off earlier (in fact, this is a good idea to a point: since it doesn't raise your ECL, bloodline levels do not raise the XP cost to go up in level, so you could be level 1 and spend 1000xp three times to take all three levels in a given bloodline). There also doesn't appear to be anything stopping you from having multiple major bloodlines (meaning hypothetically you could have all twelve, meaning 36 bloodline levels), although this is both impractical from an XP perspective and certainly trips the "no sane DM" alarm, so I won't consider that from now on.
So, hypothetically, you could be level 1 with 4000xp and three bloodline levels, with a maximum rank of 7 in any given skill (although you'd only have the level 1 abilities from that bloodline, and the stats of a level 1 character while your friends are level 3). You'd only need 1000xp to reach level 2, raising your maximum ranks to 8, and so on (and since you're lower level than your companions, you actually get more XP than they do - similar to the "one level gravy train" that magic item crafters have been using since 2004 or so). Granted, this is a variant from Unearthed Arcana, but it is something that does this.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Um where are bloodlines from?

It isnt that I don't trust you or anything, but I'm looking for legitimate ways (no homebrew or 3rd party)

And even by the link you provided I dont think they work that way.
Um where are bloodlines from?

It isnt that I don't trust you or anything, but I'm looking for legitimate ways (no homebrew or 3rd party)

And even by the link you provided I dont think they work that way.


Didn't read my post, did you? The last sentence gives you the full source. Unearthed Arcana was a collection of variant rules put together by Wizards; it's been released under the Open Game License and as such it's legal to post as they did there. (Everything on d20SRD.org comes from the System Reference Document (loosely speaking, the "rules" underlying the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, the Monster Manual, the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and a few other things here and there such as 3.5 updates to the Epic Level Handbook and Deities & Demigods) or from Unearthed Arcana).

As for "I don't think they work that way", how so? Here's what I mean. 

Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

...

For example, A 1st-level character with a major bloodline (silver dragon) receives a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks as a bloodline trait. When he reaches 2nd character level, he gains the Alertness feat as a bloodline trait. Before he reaches 3rd character level, he must take a level of bloodline in order to continue gaining bloodline traits. if he reaches 3rd character level and has no bloodline levels, he does not gain the bloodline trait due him at 3rd character level (Strength +1) and must take a 20% reduction on all future XP gains. If he later meets the minimum required bloodline levels, he gains his 3rd-level trait at that time (as well as any other traits he may have failed to receive for not taking his bloodline level right away), and the XP reduction no longer applies to future gains. Before reaching his 6th character level, he must have taken two levels of bloodline in order to keep gaining bloodline traits. If he takes his third bloodline level before reaching 12th character level, he becomes eligible to gain all the traits of his bloodline (as they become available when he reaches new character levels).

...

A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.



 The bold bits are all the relevant text.

Let's say Simon is a level 1 human rogue with a major Vampire bloodline. He starts with 0 XP, and has spent all of his (8+int)x4 skill points, with none of his class skills exceeding 4 ranks (his level+3). He has a +2 bonus on climb checks but is otherwise identical to any other human rogue. When he amasses 1000xp, instead of gaining a level of Rogue, he instead gains his first level of "Vampire Bloodline". Vampire Bloodline doesn't increase his character level, grant him a hit die, or improve any of his parameters (except his effective level where that matters - as a rogue, he doesn't have any level-dependent parameters just yet. Once he gets Improved Uncanny Dodge, though, he'd treat his rogue level as one higher than it really is due to the bloodline level).

Relevant to your discussion, that Vampire Bloodline level does increase his maximum skill ranks to 5 in any given class skill - however, he doesn't have any extra skill points to put into it just yet. He'd need to reach level 2 Rogue to get more. How much XP does that take? Well, the XP to advance charts are based on effective character level (your character level plus your level adjustment; pretty standard ECL here). The "Vampire Bloodline" level explicitly does not advance your character level. In other words, you need 1000 xp to reach level 2 Rogue, which grants Simon 1d6+CON HP, increases in base attack and save bonuses, and 8+Int new skill points (which he can spend to advance his class skills up to 6 ranks - the Vampire Bloodline level did improve his maximum rank). He'd also gain the Stealthy feat (the level 2 property of his Vampire bloodline). If he was in a party that all received XP at the same rate, he would be reaching level 2 Rogue when his allies are roughly halfway to their third character level. (This may not be worth it, which is why you don't need to take bloodline levels immediately. However, you do keep amassing benefits, which is why there are deadlines to pay for them.)

Instead of advancing to Rogue level 2, though,  Simon could pick up his second Vampire Bloodline level for those 1000xp instead. And so on and so forth through the previous paragraph again.

Where is this going wrong? 

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

sorry, forgive me.

I missed the important parts lmao.

I overlooked the ua referance and the part of the article that stated them not increasing a characters lvl.


EDIT:

Okay heres a question.

Would having a bloodline qualify you as being of the type for your bloodline?
If you have the celestial bloodline - do you qualify as a celestial for feats that require one to have the celestial subtype?
sorry, forgive me.

I missed the important parts lmao.

I overlooked the ua referance and the part of the article that stated them not increasing a characters lvl.


EDIT:

Okay heres a question.

Would having a bloodline qualify you as being of the type for your bloodline?
If you have the celestial bloodline - do you qualify as a celestial for feats that require one to have the celestial subtype?



The answer to your question again comes back to reading the rules.  Those rules do not say you count as being of that type or subtype, so no, you wouldn't. You'd be fully human, just with a small touch of, say, celestial power already reflected in the bloodline. You wouldn't be celestial enough to qualify for celestial feats.

Would it be an interesting houserule? Certainly, especially if it was limited to some extent by degree of bloodline and only unlocked when you buy the bloodline levels. But for that you'd need to talk to your DM. 

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Tempest_Stormwind. Ihate to be a bother, but me and my DM ended up arguing a little bit over the bloodlines, he says they'll end up being level adjustmens anyway, I disagree. The thing is, neither of us can find any mention of the 1000xp per bloodline level cost in there. Would you mind just pointing out the section where that is mentioned or something?
As a variant option - bloodlines requires DM approval in the first place. If he thinks they should count as a static LA - then that is their choice.

In truth they are but are not - as they do not affect anything on their own lvls except making your bloodline more powerful and allowing more skill ranks.

As for the exp cost - thats because they are counted as normal lvls in terms of exp cost - and tempest is talking about taking them at lvl 1.

In truth the only thing that would change if your dm make them into a static LA would be thier cost.

Instead of them not stacking with your current lvl to determine thier cost - they would and become far more expensive - buts that all.

Did I get that right? I certainly hope so, I've been wraping my head around rulings left and right lately for this character idea.....

It follows from level advancement rules.

The rules on level advancement specify that they're based on "effective character level" (hit dice (character level + racial hit dice) + level adjustment). This is one of only two places in the rules where level adjustments apply (one is to effects relating to XP, the other is relating to starting wealth on the wealth-by-level table). In other words, an ECL 1 character requires 1000 xp to reach level 2. (For players of LA+0 races with no racial hit dice, ECL = your level.)

The thing is, if you choose that level as a bloodline level, it doesn't raise your ECL. You're still a level 1 character, and to reach level 2 you still need 1000 more XP.

This is easier if you view the level table like a cumulative total of XP "prices" instead of "required total XP" - viewing things this way makes level adjustment buyoff, bloodline levels, and even 3.5 multiclassing and XP penalties make perfect sense.
If you are ECL 1, buying a character level costs 1000 xp. (Same as the table: 1000xp to advance from level 1 to level 2.)
If you are ECL 2, buying a character level costs 2000 xp. (Same as the table: 3000xp to advance from level 1 to level 3.)
If you are ECL 3, buying a character level costs 3000 xp. (Same as the table: 6000xp to advance from level 1 to level 4.)
If you are ECL 4, buying a character level costs 4000 xp. (Same as the table: 10000xp to advance from level 1 to level 5.)
And so on.

All bloodline levels do is fail to increment the ECL - that is, they don't change the price of a level.

There IS a drawback, though - if you're ECL 1 (a first-level character) and buy all three bloodline levels from your major bloodline, you've just spent 3000xp on bloodline levels, and you're still level 1. You don't have the benefits of those bloodline levels (they activate when your Level - that is, your ECL - rises to the corresponding point), and you have the stats of a 1st level character... while all your friends are level 3.

Meanwhile, if you decide to NOT buy any bloodline levels at level 1, you can unlock the first and second abilities on the major bloodline "for free" by advancing to level 2 with the rest of your team. The "price" of a bloodline level rises to 2000xp if you do, and you need to spend that 2000xp to buy it before hitting level 3 (if you don't, you start taking an XP penalty, and you don't get the 3rd-level or higher abilities unlocked until you do buy it). 

If you do the math on buying bloodlines just at the levels in question, you'll find that it is similar to a level adjustment, but delivered over a wider range, and unlocked more gradually. It's actually rather nice in that regard.

However, in this context, you have the ability to buy them earlier, and they do raise your maximum skill rank. (They don't give you skill points to raise your rank to that new limit, but they do raise the limit.) And that's why I brought them up. 

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series

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These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)

[TS] Holy Fire: Just getting warmed up! (Casting, damage, theme (fire), theme (sacred), blasting)

[TS] Groundhog Mage: ♪Let’s do the time warp again♪ (Casting, stunt, setting-specific (Faerun), spell stamina / versatility, spontaneous wizard)

 

Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft

 

Seishi: I think it might be fun to have a one-off [game] tuned fairly, but with the intention of wiping the party. 

DisposableHero_: if [my campaign] has taught me nothing else, it is that with this group, nothing tuned fairly will ever wipe the party

RadicalTaoist: I've been throwing **** at this group that's 5 levels over CRed in DFN, and have yet to wipe the party.

Tempest, thanks for taking the time to clarify it.

Tetsuoh perhaps argue was the wrong word, my vocabulary does fail me at times. We enjoy discussing different rules and such and this seemed very itneresting, we just had issues agreeing on how it would actually work, but I think Tempest did a very good job in explaining it. And yes we are considering giving these things a go for a future campaign.
There is at least 1 way to gain extra skill ranks: Item Familiar (feat from Unearthed Arcana), requires character level 3.

Through investing skill ranks in the Item Familiar, the character gets extra ranks (at the rate of +1 for each 3 invested).

Also, one is able to spend those bonus skill ranks to break the regular skill rank max, such as having 10 ranks in Healing at level 4.

This too is OGL and available in the online SRDs.
There is at least 1 way to gain extra skill ranks: Item Familiar (feat from Unearthed Arcana), requires character level 3.

Through investing skill ranks in the Item Familiar, the character gets extra ranks (at the rate of +1 for each 3 invested).

Also, one is able to spend those bonus skill ranks to break the regular skill rank max, such as having 10 ranks in Healing at level 4.

This too is OGL and available in the online SRDs.



No that gives you a bonus depending on how many skill points you have invested in your item familar, not ranks.
Et in arcadia ego~Even in paradise I am here Est Sularus Oth Mithas~My Honor Is My Life You, sir, are a liar. Or delusional. I like your style.- Zombie_Babies
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The two editions are very different...and make for two different games. In general, 3.0/3.5 is built around more-or-less full freedom in terms of character customization. In contrast, 4.0 is built around balance and ease of play. Honestly, I think WotC should have maintained both lines as parallel games.
(real life friends came up with this not me) The Resident Nonexistant Antichrist Neanderthal Amish Werewolf Jesus Delusion.
There is at least 1 way to gain extra skill ranks: Item Familiar (feat from Unearthed Arcana), requires character level 3.

Through investing skill ranks in the Item Familiar, the character gets extra ranks (at the rate of +1 for each 3 invested).

Also, one is able to spend those bonus skill ranks to break the regular skill rank max, such as having 10 ranks in Healing at level 4.

This too is OGL and available in the online SRDs.



No that gives you a bonus depending on how many skill points you have invested in your item familar, not ranks.





You are right. I didn't properly recall the details.
In Cityscape, there is a feat called Primary Contact.  The contact is part of a guild, and the guild has a number of associated skills.  When you take Primary Contact, you may select one of the skills associated with the guild.  Text quote:  "You gain 1 bonus skill rank in the associated skill, even if doing so would put you over the normal maximum ranks for that skill."

There was one other, but I cannot recall it now.

Edit:  Whoops, kinda glossed over post #7, but hey, backup is good, right?  Smile 
Winner of the You Make the... Contest #9: Jedi Padawans Winner of the You Build the Character#33:  EU Bounty Hunters Winner of the You Build the Character #37:  The Empire Strikes Back Winner of the "Ultimate Dream Builds #1: The Underworld" I am Blue/Black
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The Loremaster class has a class feature called secrets, which provide bonuses you can choose from. One of them does in fact give you 4 skill RANKS in any one skill you have not put any ranks into.
The Loremaster class has a class feature called secrets, which provide bonuses you can choose from. One of them does in fact give you 4 skill RANKS in any one skill you have not put any ranks into.

loremaster
True enough but the key distiction is that the Loremaster's Instant Mastery only grants ranks in a skill which has no ranks.  It is not going to push your ranks in any skill over what you could already have by spending skill points even for a non-class skill.