New Phyrexia Rules Update

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Here's the latest rules update.

The FAQ for New Phyrexia can be found here.

The lion share is devoted to Phyrexian mana. But i see alot of suggestions made here.

The Myr weilder-licid interaction was fixed, and the rules now allow for Karn to becomes the best griefing card for multiplayer yet.


The really big news this time around is the overturning of the previous rules policy of making cards work the way they originally did. Taking a similar action to the reomval of mana burn, Master of Arms, and Winter orb are returned to thier printed functionality, even though they no longer match how they did when they were originaly printed.

Edit: Also the FAQ are now being put center stage in the arcana... which is nice. (I don't remember them doing this before)
… and then, the squirrels came.
This feels like a good place to repeat that there's an error in the FAQ for Act of Aggression.

--

On Myr Weider-Licid, it feels like we have the following definitons:
Enchanting - Is attached, and is an Enchantment with subtype Aura.
Equipping - Is attached, and is an Artifact with subtype Equipment.
Fortifying - Is attached, and is an Artifact with subtype Fortification.

So Myr Welder-Licid-Demonspine Whip still works if we can give Myr Welder the Equipment subtype (say, with Liquimetal Coating and Bludgeon Brawl) . The Myr-Licid would be be both Enchanting and Equipping simultaneously.
The really big news this time around is the overturning of the previous rules policy of making cards work the way they originally did. Taking a similar action to the reomval of mana burn, Master of Arms, and Winter orb are returned to thier printed functionality, even though they no longer match how they did when they were originaly printed.



It's pretty obvious that the format on which WotC has it's main focus is Standard, be it Constructed or Limited. The thing that I can't wrap my brain around is why they go through the motions of doing things like returning, re-returning, and un-returning things to their former functionalities.

I can't understand why they care about these old, crappy, or old and crappy cards anymore. Who's still playing with them in a manner that the rules should really be concerned about how they may or may not actually work? It seems pointless because the people playing with them are largely in one or more of the following groups:

1) Casualists that don't care about specifics of the rules because that's not what Magic is about for them
2) Casualist EDH players who play with marked cards anyway
3) New players with hand-me-down cards that will eventually realize they should be playing with something else
4) People that don't know or don't care that Oracle exists

Why go through the trouble?

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.
The thing that I can't wrap my brain around is why they go through the motions of doing things like returning, re-returning, and un-returning things to their former functionalities.

Well, the main reason things get changed and then unchanged is because of a change in philosophy. Nowadays, they put more of an emphasis on "what would someone who is only familiar with modern rules think when they see the printed text of the card?", rather than "what did the card do at the time it was printed, and how can we replicate that under modern rules?". In the past, the priorities were reversed.
I can't understand why they care about these old, crappy, or old and crappy cards anymore.

But what about the cards that are old and good? The ones that see play in Vintage and legacy tournaments (yes, vintage and legacy tournaments do exist --- and are quite fun i might add). It makes quite a difference what the wordings of Oath of Druids, Lion's Eye Diamond, Illusionary Mask, Phyrexian Dreadnought, and Flash are (all of which are examples of cards that have been errataed, and some of which have been un-errataed).

So there are three options:

  1. Have a philosophy of "old cards don't matter"

  2. Have a philosophy of "gee, this is such hard work, so we'll just update the cards that are likely to matter"

  3. Have a philosophy of "all cards are important"


You seem to be advocating #1, suggesting that because most people that play old cards are casuals, updating things is unnecessary. As one of the people who plays old cards in non-casual ways, this option feels like a slap in the face. Heck, even when i play casually, i like that the cards have been updated to work with the modern rules, rather than leaving it to my playgroup to haggle over issues that few of us have enough rules knowledge to grok.

#2 has the problem of figuring out which cards are important, but that's nearly impossible to do, as a card that was initially dismissed as being worthless can later turn out to be worthy of restriction in Vintage (i'm looking at you, Lion's Eye Diamond).

#3 is the current philosophy, which has the downside of "it requires more manhours". Incidentally, i don't think it takes that many manhours. I recall Matt Tabak has stated that most of his time is actually spent dealing with upcoming sets, with old cards mostly being adressed when a problem is uncovered by a 3rd party.
WotC supports old cards because players who have invested in the company's product expect to be able to play with them. Legacy is one of Magic's most popular formats, and while the Vintage scene isn't what it used to be, many stores still run regular Vintage tournaments.

As to philosophy, the current philosophy *is* #2, more or less. There are several examples of obscure, quirky older cards that plain don't work under current rules -- Jandor's Ring, Sylvan Library, and Guardian Beast come to mind. Since these cards very rarely show up in Vintage or Legacy tournaments, nobody's in a rush to get them fixed.



As to philosophy, the current philosophy *is* #2, more or less. There are several examples of obscure, quirky older cards that plain don't work under current rules -- Jandor's Ring, Sylvan Library, and Guardian Beast come to mind. Since these cards very rarely show up in Vintage or Legacy tournaments, nobody's in a rush to get them fixed.



Suggest the change here. If it works, they'll adopt it. Trust me, i've seen it happen more times than i can count. (Hell i even suggested a few myself)



… and then, the squirrels came.
What's wrong with those cards? They work fine..
They don't.

Jandor's Ring and Sylvan Library require information about the cards in the hand that just isn't available.  The hand isn't an ordered zone.  Players are free to shuffle or rearrange their hand however they want, obliterating any sort of information about which card was most recently drawn and which cards were drawn that turn.

Now, players can impose an order on their hand in order to preserve this information (e.g. by keeping the most recently-drawn cards or the cards drawn that turn separate from the others).  However, this behavior isn't actually specified in the rules, and it relies on the player already doing that before the Ring or Library's ability resolves.  Also, the other players aren't actually entitled to have that information about the cards in your hand, but they need to have it in order to know you aren't cheating (so, really, in order to properly use those cards, you need a neutral third party at hand).

Guardian Beast says that "other players can't gain control of [noncreature artifacts you control]".  Given that change-of-control is a continuous effect, it's unclear what it even means for that to be impossible.  See this semi-recent thread.
As to philosophy, the current philosophy *is* #2, more or less. There are several examples of obscure, quirky older cards that plain don't work under current rules -- Jandor's Ring, Sylvan Library, and Guardian Beast come to mind. Since these cards very rarely show up in Vintage or Legacy tournaments, nobody's in a rush to get them fixed.



Suggest the change here. If it works, they'll adopt it. Trust me, i've seen it happen more times than i can count. (Hell i even suggested a few myself)



If I stumble across a clever solution, I will be sure to post it, but sharper minds than mine have already given these problem cards quite a bit of thought.


Take Jandor's Ring, for instance. I wasn't around during Arabian Nights (I started playing during Ice Age), but it's pretty clear that this card's ability is intended to be activated immediately after drawing a card, possibly during the resolution of other spells or abilities. I'm sure that worked fine in practice back then, when the rules relied heavily on common sense and case-by-case interpretation, but nowadays this kind of ability has no rules support whatsoever. The best I can come up with is something tortured like
"If you would draw a card from your library while Jandor's Ring is untapped, look at it instead. You may pay 2 and tap Jandor's Ring. If you do, put that card into your graveyard and draw a card. Otherwise, draw the card."
with tons of functional changes (doesn't trigger madness, etc.)
Replacement effects can't require a mana payment.
From what I understand, Guardian Beast actually does work, it's just really bizarre.  The Ring & Library are flat-out broken, though.

Anyway, hooray for updates!

I look forward to seeing the actual new CR.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the Melira + Persist shenanigans.
Magic Judge Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Rules Theory and Templating: "They may be crazy, but they're good." --Matt Tabak, Rules Manager*
Replacement effects can't require a mana payment.



Interesting... you're right, after a cursory search through Gatherer I couldn't find any cards with replacement effects involving mana payments. The closest are the Ravnica duals and life payments.

What's the reason for this restriction? I would have thought 116.1d would handle the situation of a player needing to activate mana abilities to pay costs while carrying out the replaced event just fine.
Let's say I pay for your hypothetical Jandor's Ring up there with my Millikin.  Come back to me when you've got an answer

EDIT: Okay, that might actually work in this case, but cards like Millikin make mana payments in replacement effects problematic.  Especially when you start putting replacement effects on top of the mana abilities.
Magic Judge Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Rules Theory and Templating: "They may be crazy, but they're good." --Matt Tabak, Rules Manager*
Sylvan Library sees play in legacy (it's very common in Zoo, but can also be found in Enchantress and some Bant variants. A Zoo list with Sylvan Library reached the semifinals of GP:Madrid).
As long as you keep the card(s) you've drawn so far separate from you hand until the ability has resolved there is no problem. Most people will do what you do when you Ponder during their draw step and then tell their oppoent if they keep extra cards.
If I stumble across a clever solution, I will be sure to post it, but sharper minds than mine have already given these problem cards quite a bit of thought.



Exactly, the rules team isn't ignoring these older cards, it's just that there aren't good solutions to many of them. Rules managers are constantly tweaking older cards to try to make them work properly.
… and then, the squirrels came.
A quick-and-dirty fix for Jandor's and Sylvan would be to ridicule and leverage the current state of Graveyard Order, essentially creating a variant of the old "nobody gets to move anything while a Chaos Orb is on the table" rule.

If those cards can somehow temporarly turn the hand into and ordered zone, they work.  In practice, this is done (right now) by keeping the relevant card(s) separated from the rest of the hand until the effect is completed.  In rules theory, however, the rules suport would have to be ungodly convoluted to accomplish this.
A quick-and-dirty fix for Jandor's and Sylvan would be to ridicule and leverage the current state of Graveyard Order, essentially creating a variant of the old "nobody gets to move anything while a Chaos Orb is on the table" rule.

If those cards can somehow temporarly turn the hand into and ordered zone, they work.  In practice, this is done (right now) by keeping the relevant card(s) separated from the rest of the hand until the effect is completed.  In rules theory, however, the rules suport would have to be ungodly convoluted to accomplish this.



You don't need to turn your hand into an ordered zone for these cards to work, you simply need to mark what cards you drew this turn.

Giving them an attribute would do this. It works in Commander.
… and then, the squirrels came.
How would an attribute of a card in a private zone actually work?
Replacement effects can't require a mana payment.



Interesting... you're right, after a cursory search through Gatherer I couldn't find any cards with replacement effects involving mana payments. The closest are the Ravnica duals and life payments.

What's the reason for this restriction?


The reasoning that I got quite some time ago was that since, by definition, a replacement effect replaces the very next event, a mana ability would then become that very next event, and the event that the replacement effect had intended to replace would remain unreplaced. Basically, the mana ability would get in the way of the event that is to be replaced.

This is something that I'm remembering from 2 or so years ago, but if that explanation is incredibly wrong, someone will correct it.
How would an attribute of a card in a private zone actually work?


This was surprising to me when I first heard it, and I thought it was just in that one guy's playgroup, but they put their commander in a different color sleeve.

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.
The "May 1, 2011" Comp. Rules Update has now been posted.

www.wizards.com/magic/TCG/Resources.aspx...

Del Laugel

Editing manager, Magic TCG

The "May 1, 2011" Comp. Rules Update has now been posted.

www.wizards.com/magic/TCG/Resources.aspx...



Thanks!

713.3. Because each player draws seven cards when the new game begins, any player with fewer than
seven cards in his or her library will lose the game when state-based actions are checked during the
upkeep step of the first turn, regardless of any mulligans that player takes. (See rule 704, “State-
Based Actions.)


How would this happen?





Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.
How would this happen?


Karn, Shahrazad, Enter the Dungeon.
Replacement effects can't require a mana payment.



Interesting... you're right, after a cursory search through Gatherer I couldn't find any cards with replacement effects involving mana payments. The closest are the Ravnica duals and life payments.

What's the reason for this restriction?


The reasoning that I got quite some time ago was that since, by definition, a replacement effect replaces the very next event, a mana ability would then become that very next event, and the event that the replacement effect had intended to replace would remain unreplaced. Basically, the mana ability would get in the way of the event that is to be replaced.

This is something that I'm remembering from 2 or so years ago, but if that explanation is incredibly wrong, someone will correct it.


That was the explanation Condor gave, yes.  The explanation seems a little iffy given that Thought Reflection turns one event into two non-simultaneous events without breaking the game.

And a library could have fewer than 7 cards at the beginning of a new/sub game via something like Leveler in the first/main game.


And a library could have fewer than 7 cards at the beginning of a new/sub game via something like Leveler in the first/main game.



I see. Also, I just read Karn again, and I didn't realize that it specifically says that you leave all exile cards in exile.

It only says to leave the cards exiled by Karn in the exile zone. So wouldn't the cards exiled by Leveler come back in the new game?

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.
In the case of karn, yes, cards exiled by leveler will be returned to the library (it would still theoretically be possible for karn to exile enough cards on his own). 
(it would still theoretically be possible for karn to exile enough cards on his own). 



Good point. I didn't think about that.

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.
Here's the full wording of some of the most interesting changes:

112.6h An object’s ability that states counters can’t be placed on that object functions as that object is entering the battlefield in addition to functioning while that object is on the battlefield.




301.7. If a non-Equipment permanent has an ability that refers to the “equipped creature,” that phrase doesn’t refer to any creature. Similarly, a non-Fortification permanent that has an ability that refers to the “fortified land” doesn’t refer to any land.

303.4i If a non-Aura permanent has an ability that refers to the “enchanted [object or player]” that phrase doesn’t refer to any object or player.




607.2e If an object has an ability printed on it that causes a player to choose from between two or more words that otherwise have no rules meaning and an ability printed on it that refers to a choice involving one or more of those words, those abilities are linked. The second can refer only to a choice made as a result of the first ability.




614.13. An effect that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield may cause other objects to change zones. Such an effect can’t cause the permanent itself to not enter the battlefield.
Example: Sutured Ghoul says, in part, “As Sutured Ghoul enters the battlefield, exile any number of creature cards from your graveyard.” If Sutured Ghoul enters the battlefield from your graveyard, Sutured Ghoul itself can’t be exiled by this replacement effect.







713. Restarting the Game

713.1. One card (Karn Liberated) restarts the game. A game that is restarted immediately ends. No players in that game win, lose, or draw that game. All players in that game when it ended then start a new game following the procedures set forth in rule 103, “Starting the Game,” with the following exception:

713.1a The starting player in the new game is the player who controlled the spell or ability that restarted the game.

713.2. All Magic cards involved in the game that was restarted when it ended, including phased-out permanents and nontraditional Magic cards, are involved in the new game, even if those cards were not originally involved in the restarted game.
Example: A player casts Living Wish, bringing a creature card into the game from outside the game. Then that game is restarted. The creature card will be part of that player’s library when the new game begins.

713.3. Because each player draws seven cards when the new game begins, any player with fewer than seven cards in his or her library will lose the game when state-based actions are checked during the upkeep step of the first turn, regardless of any mulligans that player takes. (See rule 704, “State-Based Actions.”)

713.4. The effect that restarts the game finishes resolving just before the first turn’s untap step. If the spell or ability that generated that effect has additional instructions, those instructions are followed at this time. No player has priority, and any triggered abilities that trigger as a result will go on the stack the next time a player receives priority, usually during the first turn’s upkeep step.

713.5. Effects may exempt certain cards from the procedure that restarts the game. These cards are not in their owner’s deck as the new game begins.

713.5a In a Commander game, a commander that has been exempted from the procedure that restarts the game won’t begin the new game in the command zone. However, it remains that deck’s commander for the new game. See rule 903, “Commander.”

713.6. If a Magic subgame (see rule 714) is restarted, the main game is unaffected. Main-game effects that refer to the winner or loser of the subgame now refer to the winner or loser of the restarted subgame.

713.7. If a multiplayer game using the limited range of influence option (see rule 801) is restarted, all players in the game are involved, regardless of the range of influence of the player who controls the ability that restarted the game.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

713.7. If a multiplayer game using the limited range of influence option (see rule 801) is restarted, all players in the game are involved, regardless of the range of influence of the player who controls the ability that restarted the game.

Quite simply, the grand melee at GenCon this year will not involve New Phyrexia. We do not want a 4 day long single game of Magic.
Level 2 Magic Judge Lite a man a fire, warm him for a day. Light a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Quite simply, the grand melee at GenCon this year will not involve New Phyrexia. We do not want a 4 day long single game of Magic.

The intent of Karn is not to actually restart the game - the intent is to annoy the opponent(s) into just walking away.
It's essentially the same as an "everybody dies" combo in giant multiplayer, without actually being one.  I've little doubt it will quickly be looked upon the same way fairly quickly.

Here's a 3-column 38-page reformat of the rules, which is far more printer-friendly.
607.2e If an object has an ability printed on it that causes a player to choose from between two or more words that otherwise have no rules meaning and an ability printed on it that refers to a choice involving one or more of those words, those abilities are linked. The second can refer only to a choice made as a result of the first ability.



This one's quite the mouthful... what's an example of a card that needs this rule?
607.2e If an object has an ability printed on it that causes a player to choose from between two or more words that otherwise have no rules meaning and an ability printed on it that refers to a choice involving one or more of those words, those abilities are linked. The second can refer only to a choice made as a result of the first ability.



This one's quite the mouthful... what's an example of a card that needs this rule?


I guess Raging River?  I'm not so sure that it needs to be linked to itself, though.
Ashling's Prerogative, maybe?

Archangel of Strife (Commander Precons) uses this new tech: forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t...
Ah.  No wonder it was unclear, if the cards that would need it haven't been released yet.
The scheme cards use it: they have you choose self or others.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I checked those, but it doesn't apply to them.  The schemes in question all have just a single ability.  The choice is made and then something is immediately done based on that choice.  The new rule is only about linked abilities, and it allows one ability to use the choice made by another ability.
The "self or others" abilities are linked to themselves.
The "self or others" abilities are linked to themselves.



If you say that's the case, it must be right.  But it confuses me.

Linked abilities have two purposes: they allow one ability to reference the results of another ability, and they stop interactions between mismatched pairs of abilities.

Iona, Shield of Emeria has a pair of linked abilities.  One ability just allows you to choose a color, while the other does something based on "the chosen color".  The linked ability technology defines what "the chosen color" means, and it makes it so that, if it becomes a copy of Painter's Servant (or a Painter's Servant becomes a copy of it), the "chosen color" will be undefined, since both the Servant and Iona can only use the color chosen for their own other ability.

Something like Kabira Evangel, on the other hand, doesn't need linked ability technology.  It has an ability that involves making a choice and then immediately using the result of that choice.  The choice doesn't stick around as part of the game state.  Since it's just a single ability, you just follow the instructions in the order listed.  The rules don't need to specify that you're allowed to use the information from the first sentence in the second sentence.  And the Evangel's ability doesn't need to be linked in order to stop interaction with Painter's Servant's abilities; it's enough that the Servant's abilities are linked.

Self-linked abilities to me are things like Eye of the Storm.  That has a self-linked ability, which means it's linked to other instances of itself.  The ability allows you to copy not just the card it just exiled, but also all cards exiled by previous instances of the same ability.  That requires linked ability technology.

The "self or others" cards like The Fate of the Flammable look a lot more like Kabira Evangel than like Painter's Servant or Eye of the Storm.  They really don't seem to need linked ability technology in order to work.  And if they are self-linked abilities, it seems that a whole lot of other abilities that also don't need such technology would also qualify.

Iona, Shield of Emeria has a pair of linked abilities.  One ability just allows you to choose a color, while the other does something based on "the chosen color".  The linked ability technology defines what "the chosen color" means, and it makes it so that, if it becomes a copy of Painter's Servant (or a Painter's Servant becomes a copy of it), the "chosen color" will be undefined, since both the Servant and Iona can only use the color chosen for their own other ability.





Could you give a quick definition of what "undefined" means here and it's implications on what exactly happens in a situation like this?

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.
Undefined means there's no legal choice made for the Servant's ability (the color selected only applies to Iona's ability, since the color selected for Iona is only linked to Iona's third ability. The color selected for Iona will not apply if the creature becomes a Painter's Servant). Since there's no defined color, the second ability won't do anything and nothing will get a bonus color.

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