Karn Liberated and going to time

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If time is called in a match, there are five turns left to play.
How is that count affected when Karn's ultimate ability is used?

EDIT:
Just realized the FAQ says the game ends without anyone winning/losing/drawing.  So I guess since the game is over whatever their current record is will determine match winner. 
That's one way to look at it, but it certainly doesn't seem 'right', given that Karn's ultimate could easily win someone the game by turn 1 or 2 (any creatures that are put on the battlefield via it won't have summoning sickness).

Looking at the 5 turn rule from the tournament rules:

2.5 End-of-Match ProcedureIf the match time limit is reached before a winner is determined, the player whose turn it is finishes his or her turn and five additional turns are played in total. This usually means that one player takes three turns and the other two, but a player taking additional turns may modify this. Team tournaments featuring multiple players playing together (such as Two-Headed Giant) use three turns instead of five.If the game is incomplete at the end of additional turns, the game is considered a draw.If a judge assigned a time extension (because of a long ruling, deck check, or other reason) the end-of-match procedure does not begin until the end of the time extension.In single-elimination rounds, matches may not end in a draw. If all players have equal game wins, the player with the highest life total wins the current game. In the event all players have equal life totals (or are between games and the game wins are tied), the game/match continues with an additional state-based action: if a player does not have the highest life total, he or she loses the game. Two-Headed Giant teams are treated as a single player for determining a game winner.

While the game immediately ends, I think it's fair to say that it's incomplete - after all, there's been no win, loss or draw. As such, the turns might be able to continue. At least, I would hope so; frankly there's no precedent for this kind of thing and I don't think current rules cover it 100%.
I'm all about super-control in MTG. If you're able to stop my shenanigans, then there aren't enough shenanigans. Lv 1 Judge Current Decklists Sweeping Beauty (Casual) A Vision of Clones (Casual) Coming soon... more decks! :-O
Restart the game, to me, implies that everything that happened in the game is essentially alternate reality that paradoxically ceases to exist as if it didn't happen (though it dramatically alters the happenings at the beginning of the rewritten history game)

ie. the game didn't end, it just restarted - you're still playing the same game

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From the FAQ:
"A game that restarts immediately ends. The players in that game then immediately begin a new game. No player wins, loses, or draws the original game as a result of Karn's ability."

The new CR hasn't been posted as far as I can tell.

But thematically, yes, it seems like the restarted game could continue with remaining turns.  But from the FAQ, it seems that it wouldn't by the rules.
The rules update section about it suggests that the new game is treated as the same game for scoring purposes. I see no reason why the number of turns remaining wouldn't persist into the new game.
If that's the case, does the first turn of the new game count as a seperate turn from the one that was interrupted?
If that's the case, does the first turn of the new game count as a seperate turn from the one that was interrupted?

I'd say yes it would, but they may rule it differently.

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DJ Vortex

DCI Certified Judge since July 13, 2013
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It would have to be a separate turn. Even if Karn's controller may end up taking 2 turns in a row, it's not much different from a Time Warp.

The turn doesn't reach an "end" step, but a new game begins, and that game eventually reaches the start of a brand new turn (after leylines, chancellors, ETB triggers from Karn's ultimate and whatnot)

So if we're past time on the round, and on turn 1 I use Karn's ultimate, the next turn taken is turn 2. And basically extend a hand, draw the game, rock on.

Sean Stackhouse Level Two Judge (Yay!) Maine

If the game is restarted in the first of five extra turns, the first turn of the new game will be the second of the extra turns. If Karn's been busy, you might still win ;-P
Just kill the Karn player before it gets to this...lol.
"I have seen things you people wouldn't believe. Planeswalkers on fire off the Seachrome Coast of Mirrodin. All these spells will be cast like rice at a wedding. Time to duel."
I was wondering this.  How do you determine who gets to go first in the new game when you restart it w/ karn?
I was wondering this.  How do you determine who gets to go first in the new game when you restart it w/ karn?


Whoever controlled Karn's ability. From the FAQ:
* The player who controlled the ability that restarted the game is the starting player in the new game.
Rules Nut Advisor
Maybe this is a matter for Theory and Templating rather than rules q&a... But shouldn't that distinction go to the player who started the game which was ended by Karn's ultimate? Perhaps it makes sense thematically to have Karn's controller start the new game, but if it says "restart the game" it seems like that would mean completely restart it. Player B started this game after losing game 1, so they should (re)start the game here.

Sean Stackhouse Level Two Judge (Yay!) Maine

Maybe this is a matter for Theory and Templating rather than rules q&a... But shouldn't that distinction go to the player who started the game which was ended by Karn's ultimate? Perhaps it makes sense thematically to have Karn's controller start the new game, but if it says "restart the game" it seems like that would mean completely restart it. Player B started this game after losing game 1, so they should (re)start the game here.


Screw that. Karn makes his own rules, and his rules say that as long as he's warping the very fabric of time for someone, he may as well give them a head start once he gets there.

Ultimately, "Restart the Game" means whatever Wizards says it does, and they say it includes picking a new starting player.
Rules Nut Advisor
Personally, while I'm also of the opinion that if you were just given a game instruction to "restart the game" the player who had started that game initially would get to go first, there's not really been a precedent for this kind of thing before, so they've got flexibility in how they decide to go with it - and they decided to go with "the Karn player gets the first turn", which I think is fair. In terms of a 'game fairness', you can argue that because the Karn player cut their turn short, they should get to pick things up again. In terms of an 'ability power level', Karn's ability should, if nothing else, let them have the 'advantage' (assuming they're not playing a draw-first kind of deck) by going first.

Basically - due to no precedent they were able to go with something that is perhaps not the most intuitive result. Hopefully judges and players know to check the FAQ (until rulings are on Gatherer) if they ever come across it.
I'm all about super-control in MTG. If you're able to stop my shenanigans, then there aren't enough shenanigans. Lv 1 Judge Current Decklists Sweeping Beauty (Casual) A Vision of Clones (Casual) Coming soon... more decks! :-O
The thing is, when you use karn is almost an instant win simply because you get to take exiled permanents with you to the next game.  So if you take any type of big creature (wurmcoil, titan, etc), or even 2-3 lands, you have a pretty serious advantage already.  I guess the thought is that the player spent 7 mana getting him out and managed to get him to 14 to cast his spell - but I still feel like that is a bit of an iffy ruling.
The thing is, when you use karn is almost an instant win

That's true of the ultimate ability on many planeswalkers. one sided armageddons, one sided uber-flame waves, library be gone, hand/permanents/ life be gone, I can has army, I can has elvish army, I can has undead army...
Not gona argue w/ that.  You have a very good point.