05/04/2011 Feature: "May 2011 Update Bulletin"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Feature Article, which goes live Thursday morning on magicthegathering.com.
So are "public" and "private" codified now?  Had it already been?
Thank you for fixing Winter Orb and Master of Arms. I am pleased to see that someone is willing to get his hands dirty and undo some well-meaning, but ultimately misguided errata.

I just got called into some work so I cannot read the rest of this. But man...keep doing this and you will eventually get to all of it
I fail to see the significance in mana symbols being in the "wrong" order.

New Revelation wording 
Players play with their hands revealed.


New Wandering Eye wording 
Flying
Players play with the top card of their libraries revealed.


This is not a non-functional change—the cards have swapped abilities!
Thumbs down for the Winter Orb ruling.  Does this remove the option to reprint it with the "if untapped" clause?  I still play the card for the tap interaction in a colorless EDH deck, and while that format allows for some flexibility with house rules, I would hope that there are some other fans out there that could have pulled for a judge promo instead of singling this card out from Static Orb, Howling Mine, Storage Matrix and the like.
Does this remove the option to reprint it with the "if untapped" clause?

Not if whoever authorized the changes on Flying Carpet and Castle (presumably Rosewater) is still in charge.

Thumbs down for the Winter Orb ruling.  Does this remove the option to reprint it with the "if untapped" clause?  I still play the card for the tap interaction in a colorless EDH deck, and while that format allows for some flexibility with house rules, I would hope that there are some other fans out there that could have pulled for a judge promo instead of singling this card out from Static Orb, Howling Mine, Storage Matrix and the like.



The errata never should have happened in the first place. It was an olive branch to get ahead of players angry about the Sixth Edition changes. If there is no printed version of the card whatsoever with the "if untapped" text, then there is no reason for the ruling to exist. You can't keep holding the door open just in case such a card would get printed again - especially considering how unlikely it is we'll ever see the Orb again outside of an FTV.

Sometimes rules change and make cards suck. We could write a long list of cards every bit as "deserving" of the special treatment Winter Orb got that never were even considered.
Yay for updates.  And it's an honor to (again) be mentioned!  It's great to see so many of the things I've reported getting fixed.  I've already found several more issues, which I'll be reporting for next update.

I fail to see the significance in mana symbols being in the "wrong" order.



One of the basic principles is that if cards work the same way, they should be worded the same way.  This has a certain aesthetic appeal, it makes it easier to recognize identical abilities, and it makes it easier to search for cards with a certain ability.  This is where a lot of the nonfunctional changes come from.

In Magic, there's a certain order in which colors are always presented: always go clockwise with the fewest skips, shared enemy first for "wedges", WUBRG for five colors.  This order is always used, for mana costs, activation costs, references to multiple mana symbols, references to multiple colors, and references to multiple basic land types, and even for hybrid symbols.  There were quite a few cases where this order wasn't followed (either because they didn't yet pay any attention to the order, or because they were using the "always WUBRG order" system at the time), but almost all of those have been fixed now, and the Skyshroud Forest is one of the last.

In short, since all other cards say "Add or to your mana pool.", so should Skyshroud Forest.

(There's one problem card for this: Sword of Fire and Ice.  The correct order is normally "protection from blue and from red", but it's currently in the order that matches the name ("protection from red (fire) and from blue (ice)".  I think that's the only case where the order doesn't have an effect on the function but where having an inconsistent order is "correct" in some sense.) 
and it makes it easier to search for cards with a certain ability

That's actually a damn good reason.
Agreed. I have been sold.

Unless they make a card that says "destroy taget land with the ability "Add or to your mana pool." THEN I want Skyshroud Forest to be errated back

New Revelation wording 
Players play with their hands revealed.


New Wandering Eye wording 
Flying
Players play with the top card of their libraries revealed.


This is not a non-functional change—the cards have swapped abilities!


Actually, Revelation got a non-functional change, since it always had a hands revealed effect. The confusing change is Wandering Eye, which (if this bulletin is correct) got a completely new effect, revealing the top card of the library rather than players' hands!
Rules Nut Advisor
121.2

 It turns out that no rule really explicitly stated what happens to counters on an object when that object changed zones. In practice, we know that a Runeclaw Bear on the battlefield becomes a different object when it goes to the graveyard, and counters it had on it cease to exist. But it seemed appropriate to actually spell that out.



*tears of joy* 

[<o>]
(Accidentally posted this in the wrong thread; reposted here where it should be.)

I do believe Crumbling Sanctuary and Bone Mask are my first direct caught-it-first credits!
*tears of joy* 

We should start a club or something. "Successful Nitpickers Anonymous"

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Hmm, the mention of Brutal Suppression makes me notice its Oracle wording is strangely different to printed. As printed, if you hit it with Artificial Evolution, you can use it to hose Eternal Dragon or Undead Gladiator (and also Ashen Ghoul, Chronosavant etc). It could work on activated abilities from places other than the battlefield. But now it can't. That seems an unexpected divergence from the printed text.

My reaction to the Master of Arms change is very much "Awwww!" But I can see it's sensible.

The tidying to the Myr Welder/Demonspine Whip case is harsh, but probably the only sensible approach.

But, wait, "the planeswalker symbol will now be denoted as {PW}"? Surely {PW} is the Phyrexian White mana symbol? It's already being used as that on several sites such as draw3cards.com...
I may be missing something implicit in the old rules, but it seems to me that the original Natural Selection did not target the player; and the new wording does target. So this is a functional change, which I don't think is what was intended.

Go draft, young man, go draft!

I believe that the rules regarding linked abilities need to be changed to accommodate Karn Liberated.

We have seen several cards with abilities linked to more than one ability.  Cards like Caged Sun have two dependent abilities; i. e., ability B can only use information from ability A, and ability C can only use information from ability A.  These abilities work just fine.

However, Karn has two independent abilities: Ability C can only use information from ability A, and ability C can only use information from ability B.  Under the current rules, ability C does not work properly.

Let's say you activate Karn's ultimate.  You have a card that was exiled by Karn's first ability.  Do you leave it in exile?  Well, it wasn't exiled by Karn's second ability, so Karn's ultimate can't find it.  You have another card that was exiled by Karn's second ability.  Do you leave it in exile?  Well, it wasn't exiled by Karn's first ability, so Karn's ultimate can't find it.  The result is that you start a new game with nothing.

This is clearly not intended, but this is how Karn would work, according to a strict interpretation of the linked ability rules.
Thumbs down for the Winter Orb ruling.  Does this remove the option to reprint it with the "if untapped" clause?  I still play the card for the tap interaction in a colorless EDH deck, and while that format allows for some flexibility with house rules, I would hope that there are some other fans out there that could have pulled for a judge promo instead of singling this card out from Static Orb, Howling Mine, Storage Matrix and the like.



The errata never should have happened in the first place. It was an olive branch to get ahead of players angry about the Sixth Edition changes. If there is no printed version of the card whatsoever with the "if untapped" text, then there is no reason for the ruling to exist. You can't keep holding the door open just in case such a card would get printed again - especially considering how unlikely it is we'll ever see the Orb again outside of an FTV.

Sometimes rules change and make cards suck. We could write a long list of cards every bit as "deserving" of the special treatment Winter Orb got that never were even considered.



Yeah I agree. This irks me less than the flying carpet/castle examples anyway. There are also cards wich deal with mana burn wich never got changed for M10 rules-sake and the list would probably be far too big have all cards to function as printed.

I do hope if they ever do reprint WOrb somewhere to consider shoving it back in though, after all this change means Orb will function differently for the first time ever. Just because cards never said so doesn't mean they didn't.
our new, happy life
Goblinrecruiter, Rule 607.3 already adresses this.
607.3. An ability may be part of more than one pair of linked abilities.
Example: Paradise Plume has the following three abilities: "As Paradise Plume enters the
battlefield, choose a color," "Whenever a player casts a spell of the chosen color, you may gain
1 life," and "{T}: Add one mana of the chosen color to your mana pool." The first and second
abilities are linked. The first and third abilities are linked.

However, the rules describing linked abilities DO fail to indicate that abilities are linked to themselves.

I had a player doing shinanigans Knowledge Pool.

607.2a If an object has an activated or triggered ability printed on it that instructs a player to exile 
one or more cards and an ability printed on it that refers either to "the exiled cards" or to cards
"exiled with [this object]," these abilities are linked. The second ability refers only to cards in the
exile zone that were put there as a result of an instruction to exile them in the first ability.

Besides causing Knowledge Pool to lock down the game in an obviously unintended way, I told him it was patently ridiculous that an ability needs to be linked to "see" itself. Unfortunately, he took me to the comprehensive rules and sure enough, the language above seems to say so explicitly. This should be addressed.
I may be missing something implicit in the old rules, but it seems to me that the original Natural Selection did not target the player; and the new wording does target. So this is a functional change, which I don't think is what was intended.

Natural Selection was dropped after Unlimited.  The reason it doesn't "target" is just terrible templating on early cards, nothing more.

Personally, I don't like this change to Master of Arms; I would rather it keep its intended functionality.  Oh well...

Star Compass
This template was missing a "that" we use on several other cards, including Fellwar Stone.

So is that sentence. 
However, the rules describing linked abilities DO fail to indicate that abilities are linked to themselves.

607.1. An object may have two abilities printed on it such that one of them causes actions to be taken or objects to be affected and the other one directly refers to those actions or objects. If so, these two abilities are linked: the second refers only to actions that were taken or objects that were affected by the first, and not by any other ability.

607.1a An ability printed on an object within another ability that grants that ability to that object is still considered to be “printed on” that object for these purposes.

607.1b An ability printed on an object that fulfills both criteria described in rule 607.1 is linked to itself.

From another thread:
If Winter Orb and Master of Arms revert back to doing what the words on cards say they do under current rules, why then do Balduvian Trading Post, Heart of Yavimaya, Kjeldoran Outpost, Lake of the Dead, Lotus Vale, Scorched Ruins, Sheltered Valley, and Soldevi Excavations all retain the "would enter the battlefield" errata?

So just to clarify: this change means that, during a Shahrazad subgame, you can't Burning Wish for the Shahrazad you played to start the Shahrazad subgame?
On the CO IRC, generally as TorpedoFish.
Vain? Me? NEVER.
57223408 wrote:
You're the straightest shooter I know on these boards. You don't mince words about your opinions, and I respect that about you. The whole fiasco you described in the last State of the CO Forum was particularly enlightening (and kind of disappointing with regards to how they see us).
56868168 wrote:
Ah, Tsuyo. When your post isn't one sentence long full of asterisks, you have much wisdom to share with us .
From the IRC:
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My sci-fi writing.
The rules don't say that a tapped artifact doesn't work. Winter Orb doesn't say that it doesn't work while tapped. Only its Oracle wording, which was well-intentioned at the time, but ultimately incorrect.

Anyway, what's wrong with Relic Bind? Not seeing it... keeping in mind that the most recently printed version (4E) takes precedence.
I can't seem to edit my post... but wanted to add:

...keeping in mind that the most recently printed version (4E) takes precedence.
The rules at the time said that abilities of "Continuous Artifacts" (as Winter Orb was originally printed, see the Alpha, Beta, or Unlimited versions here) turned off while tapped.

This means that Winter Orb has turned off while tapped since it was originally printed in Alpha. Now someone thinks he's found a problem and rushes off to ruin our Winter Orbs.

As far as Relic Bind, someone did the same thing to it, oddly enough. Compare the original printing to the "fixed" version- yeah, that's what the card REALLY wanted to do, right?

Edited to make this post less livid. I really like Winter Orb, and it upsets me that Wizards WON'T:

1) Ban Jace to fix Standard.
2) Reprint duals to make legacy accessible for everyone.

Yet they have no problem crapping on Winter Orb, which powers an affordable strategy (prison) and is popular in both tournament and casual play.

Also, now that you've implemented your "fix", any future reprints of Winter Orb will have your gimped Oracle wording instead of the original intended functionality.

Edited to make even less standoffish once I realized that I was getting a reply from the article's author and not a forum nanny. Thanks for replying, but no thanks for the "fixed" Winter Orb (and yes, that's "fixed" as in "neutered".)

By the way, you want to know why Winter Orb wasn't reprinted with errata while Howling Mine and Static Orb were? Because Winter Orb is (was) POWERFUL. That makes your errata tantamount to power level errata, since the only reason Howling Mine and Static Orb aren't getting the same treatment is that they were balanced enough to reprint.
Anyway, what's wrong with Relic Bind? Not seeing it... keeping in mind that the most recently printed version (4E) takes precedence.

Relic Bind + Basalt Monolith was a two-card kill until both cards were errata'd to kill the combo. 
Monolith eventually reverted to (essentially) its original wording.  Relic Bind has not.

Yet they have no problem crapping on Winter Orb, which powers an affordable strategy (prison) and is popular in both tournament and casual play.



Yeah... playing Winter Orb makes you the life of the party.
Just so I'm clear on this...if I have a Darksteel Garrison, a Bludgeon Brawl, and a manland (say, Mutavault), and I pay {2} to equip the now-equipment Garrison, the Garrison ability still triggers when I attack with the mutavault, correct?

Similarly, if I have an Mammoth Umbra, a Bludgeon brawl, and a Liquimetal Coating, I can mid-combat turn the enchantment into an artifact to give my creature +5/+0?
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Yet they have no problem crapping on Winter Orb, which powers an affordable strategy (prison) and is popular in both tournament and casual play.



Yeah... playing Winter Orb makes you the life of the party.



Maybe not, but it sure makes you the center of attention. ;)

Winter Orb is a hard-working piece of cardboard that has more than pulled its weight since being printed in Alpha. Now they want to put it out to pasture with errata that effectively cripples it.

I feel obliged to speak up for Winter Orb, even if it's just for the record.
Hmm, the mention of Brutal Suppression makes me notice its Oracle wording is strangely different to printed. As printed, if you hit it with Artificial Evolution, you can use it to hose Eternal Dragon or Undead Gladiator (and also Ashen Ghoul, Chronosavant etc). It could work on activated abilities from places other than the battlefield. But now it can't. That seems an unexpected divergence from the printed text.


I made a thread about that a while back.

Since Cocoon came up, is there any reason the counters have are now "pupa counters" rather than "change counters"? Was the latter just too close to "charge counters" or something?
blah blah metal lyrics
Winter orb clearly was never intended to be tapped to be turned off, otherwise it would have been on the card. It was only because the people that made Alpha were total noobs and screwed up the rules. Thanks for being so smart and good at your job to have fixed an obvious error in intent of the design of winter orb. Magic was almost ruined until this fix.

I also like that Time Vault uses the word 'must' when describing what has to happen for it to untap, but that word doesn't mean anything so let's all use our planeswalkers to untap it because planeswalkers are cool. Again, I appluad the priorities shown by these updates and feel confident that the money I spend on packs is being put to good use.
Sometimes rules change and make cards suck.


And sometimes cards already suck, and they suck a little more with rules changes. I know that they will never do this, but there should be some way of saying "this card was never good in the first place, so it really doesn't matter."
Yay for updates.  And it's an honor to (again) be mentioned! 



Shameless plug is shameless.
But that's about the only thing that got me to go over and read the whole article. It's good to know that the people that smack me down in the Rules Theory forums have a broad influence on the game as a whole. Congrats.

Orzhova Witness

Restarting Quotes Block
58086748 wrote:
58335208 wrote:
Disregard women acquire chase rares.
There are a lot of dudes for whom this is not optional.
97820278 wrote:
144532521 wrote:
How;s a 2 drop 1/2, Flying broken? What am I missing?
You're missing it because *turns Storm Crows sideways* all your base are belong to Chuck Norris and every other overused meme ever.
Maybe not, but it sure makes you the center of attention. ;)

Winter Orb is a hard-working piece of cardboard that has more than pulled its weight since being printed in Alpha. Now they want to put it out to pasture with errata that effectively cripples it.

I feel obliged to speak up for Winter Orb, even if it's just for the record.

He is not issuing errata. He is doing the exact opposite. He is taking away errata. Now the card does exactly what the text on the card says.

If Relic Bind had not been printed in Fourh Edition with the power level change, and it had just been Oracle errata, maybe he would have removed that errata too. It was printed with that change though, and the last printed wording is what is used for Oracle text.
And last-printed wording should always stand. they can't undo all the mistakes, but they sure can fix a lot of them, and they also need to stop making them in the first place.



By the way, you want to know why Winter Orb wasn't reprinted with errata while Howling Mine and Static Orb were? Because Winter Orb is (was) POWERFUL. That makes your errata tantamount to power level errata, since the only reason Howling Mine and Static Orb aren't getting the same treatment is that they were balanced enough to reprint.



Indeed, a very fortunate thing happened to Winter Orb as opposed to the those other two cards is that there is not a version out there that actually has "as long as ~ is untapped" to be confiused with the ones that do not have this wording. As I said before, the errata never, ever should have happened. You make a new verison of cards like Howling Mine in an upcoming expansion and put that in the core set. They do this all the time. Honor Of the Pure as a better Crusade is a recent example of them taking a card and making a better version of it. Creatures are continuously being upgraded for the same mana cost. Why it has taken them so long to get this, I cannot say.

Although I was around when they randomly decided certain cards would get the "must be untapped" errata, I was on hiatus when rules teams were walking around fixing most of the cards that didn't need fixing. Apparently there wasn't enough resistence to this activity. Time Vault was changed a whole bunch of times over the years. They don't need to to that. They need to make sure that a card can do what it says it does under whatever the current rules are. they'll have a lot less bookkeeping if they stop adding words to Oracle that don't exist on the cards.

From another thread:
If Winter Orb and Master of Arms revert back to doing what the words on cards say they do under current rules, why then do Balduvian Trading Post, Heart of Yavimaya, Kjeldoran Outpost, Lake of the Dead, Lotus Vale, Scorched Ruins, Sheltered Valley, and Soldevi Excavations all retain the "would enter the battlefield" errata?




And there is more - we have other power level errata in cards like Lion's Eye Diamond that has been missed thus far. I am assuming he can't get to everything at once. (Yes, LED would be kicked out of Legacy in about two seconds but that's life.)
Yet they have no problem crapping on Winter Orb, which powers an affordable strategy (prison) and is popular in both tournament and casual play.



Yeah... playing Winter Orb makes you the life of the party.



Maybe not, but it sure makes you the center of attention. ;)

Winter Orb is a hard-working piece of cardboard that has more than pulled its weight since being printed in Alpha. Now they want to put it out to pasture with errata that effectively cripples it.

I feel obliged to speak up for Winter Orb, even if it's just for the record.


Winter Orb decks are slow by their very nature, and boring as well, to the extent that such a thing can be objectively determined. Well-made ones are overpowered for the kitchen table and yet they're still too slow and inactive to have much impact on Legacy or Vintage worth preserving. Errataing it to keep its old function when the Sixth Edition rules update changed things may or may not have been wise at the time, I don't know, but Sixth Edition was a very long time ago now; any grace period should be over. There's no good reason to NOT have the card work as intended.

And you know what? Even if you disagree with all that, and even if everyone you play with does too... you can still make a Winter Orb deck. You'd just have to repeatedly remove it from play rather than tap it. Master Transmuter is the obvious best way, but there are a ton of others. Capsize, Glint Hawk or Stern Proctor on a Mimic Vat or Soul Foundry, Hoodwink or Boomerang on an Isochron Scepter...
Just so I'm clear on this...if I have a Darksteel Garrison, a Bludgeon Brawl, and a manland (say, Mutavault), and I pay {2} to equip the now-equipment Garrison, the Garrison ability still triggers when I attack with the mutavault, correct?

Similarly, if I have an Mammoth Umbra, a Bludgeon brawl, and a Liquimetal Coating, I can mid-combat turn the enchantment into an artifact to give my creature +5/+0?



Assuming I'm reading the updates right (since we can't see the actual new rulebook yet, I'm not 100% sure on this):

Darksteel Garrison, under the effects of a Bludgeon Brawl, loses its "Fortification" subtype in favor of "Equipment" (since it does not become an Equipment "in addition to its other subtypes", Equipment will replace all other artifact types on the card). It will never be "fortifying" anything anymore. It can be attached to any creature (not just Land Creatures), and its Garrison (Fortified Land) abilities will have no effect.

Liquimetal Coatinged Mammoth Umbra will be both an Aura and an Equipment (Equipment does not replace enchantment types), and it will give the +5/+0 bonus as well as the normal bonuses.
Rules Nut Advisor
Goblinrecruiter, Rule 607.3 already adresses this.


No, it doesn't.  607.3 allows a set of three linked abilities to exist.  It doesn't specify what happens as a result of such a set of abilities - logic does that.

607.3. An ability may be part of more than one pair of linked abilities.
Example: Paradise Plume has the following three abilities: "As Paradise Plume enters the 
battlefield, choose a color," "Whenever a player casts a spell of the chosen color, you may gain
1 life," and "{T}: Add one mana of the chosen color to your mana pool." The first and second
abilities are linked. The first and third abilities are linked.


Let's say that you can only eat ice cream on Tuesdays, and you can only eat pizza on Tuesdays.  If it's Tuesday, you can eat both ice cream and pizza.  If it's not Tuesday, you can eat neither ice cream nor pizza.  This is analogous to the way abilities are linked on Paradise Plume, as well as every other card with three abilities that are linked.

Now suppose that you can only eat ice cream on Tuesdays, and you can only eat ice cream in February.  If it's a Wednesday in February, you can't eat ice cream.  If it's a Tuesday in April, you can't eat ice cream.  You can only eat ice cream if it's a Tuesday in February.  If you replace the second rule with a rule saying that you can only eat ice cream on Thursdays, then you can never eat ice cream, because it's never both Tuesday and Thursday.  This is how Karn Liberated works (or doesn't work) under the current rules.
I swear, couldn't you have reprinted Winter Orb in a core set, or hell even Commander? I mean now Winter Orb is close to unplayable, jeez, and I also need to take Master of Arms out of my banding deck (although I can reason with that one). Really repeated bounce just isn't effective, expecially in that kind of deck, and plus, too those who say it's too powerful for the table, what kind of kitchen table are you playing with. My group has been power players for years now, I mean thats how it evolves, sure some run aggro, but they build accordingly.

Really though Ten Years Ago Classic came out. It's not a baffling play, mainly because the people that are aware of the card and play it, know thats what it does, and are accustomed to it.




Jeez wizards... It's like you want me to make new decks, expecially re-edit Stasis.

Also Hacimen, I don't understand this issue with Lion's Eye.

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