Insulting the city guard and high lvl npc's

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Im dmimg my party thru the Ashen crown , while we don't oplay eberron I think its a cool adventure full of cool twists and encounters,
anyway adapted it to my campaign world with my players and there are similarities,
the players homeland was beiseged by an army of giants now beaten back,
my previous cvampaign was revenge of the giants which 2 of thye players had high lvel chaRACTERS IN,
now their land has wastelands to the north with rival factions of humans orcs and goblins etc,
the party already made the mistake of telling molric too much of what they were finding in ashturas tomb ,
he sent some dwarves to find treasure who got into a fight with the pc's
trhey beat the dwarves up, so i'm trying to teach them the worlds a dangerous place and to be careful
anyway meeting with captain kaleas ive changed it slightly to my campaign world he is the head of the city guard,
ome of the players insults his gnomish junior officer, they are slightly atagonistic t the captain anyway
after they agree to the deal i have the gnome and hgis city guard wait for them after the meeting to give them a bit of a talking to.... chance to roleplay and be diplomatic,
the barbarian of the party just shouts, " who wants a beating!"
so the city guard and the players have a little scrap and the elite guard give the party a smack around...... the party were given every chance to yield and negiotiate but the barbarian goes into a rage and the party get beaten trying to fight to the death,
now they get their wounds bound told to concentrate on their true enemies and be off captain kaleres have their supplies in a few days,
my party now seem more interested in trying to find ways of getting revenge on the city guard, though fun its pretty suicidal to try and take on a towns city guard....
give me a few ideas where this can go......
they've already fought the undead at nephters abode but i guess they'll be planning more stuff for the city guard,
where can this go suggestions?
3 unaligned characters one lawful good cleric, who though the party used lethal force on the guard is convinced that the city guard are " Evil"
But like in real life insulting and threatening a squad of tough marines or riot police aint exactly a smart move.
If they try to take on the guards, have them beaten up again, take their stuff, then kick them out of town. Continue the story there.

If they try to go back in, kill them all, then start a new story.

Also, promise them (ingame) a chance to somehow get even with the guard at a later time if they play nice. Maybe they find something that gets their lieautenant or the captain demoted if they go back into the tomb. Maybe one of them is a bad guy, and they get to fight him later.

Maybe in ten levels they need to in and the now no longer all that powerful elite guard needs to beg them to help them out with something they can't handle themselves. 
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I am DMing my party thru the Ashen crown, while we don't play Eberron, I think its a cool adventure full of cool twists and encounters. Anyway, I adapted it to my campaign world for my players. There are similarities in my world, such as having the player's homeland formerly besieged by an army of giants, which were beaten back in my previous campaign, based on Revenge of the Giants. Two of the players had high level characters in this campaign.
In the wastelands north of the homeland there are rival factions of humans, orcs, goblins, etc etc.

Anyway, the party has made a mistake in telling Molric about what they were searching for in Ashturas tomb, so Molric sent some dwarves to get the treasure first. However they got in a fight with the PCs and the party beat them. I'm trying to teach the party to be careful, because the world is a dangerous place and they shouldn't go about letting potential enemies in on their plans.

Captain Kaleas has been changed slightly in my campaign, and he is now the head of the City guard, but the players disrespect him and his junior officers anyway. They manage to secure a deal in the meeting, but I have the Gnomish junior officer and his guard wait for them to give them a strict talking to, and a chance for the party to apologize. Of course the Barbarian just shouts out "Whot wants a beating!" and the players have a scrap with the elite guard, who proceed to smack them around handily, all the while giving the party a chance to yield and negotiate. The barbarian goes into a rage and the party ends up trying to fight to the death, and the guard ends up on top.

The party is now wounded and bound by the guards, and they are told to concentrate on their true enemies and are let off. The captain is promised to have their supplies ready in a few days.

However my party is more interested in trying to find ways of getting revenge on the city guard, which while fun, is pretty suicidal.

Give me a few ideas where this can go....
They've already fought the undead at Nephters abode, but that doesn't seem to interest them as much as the city guard.
The party consists of 3 unaligned characters and one lawful good cleric, who is convinced the city guard are evil, even though the party attempted to use lethal force on them. I'm not sure where to go with this, but in real life, insulting and threatening a squad of marines or riot police isn't exactly a smart move.



I think I translated this correctly, though I still am not sure what some of the information in the beginning is about.
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I'm thinking this is 3.5, so have your LG cleric not be able to get his spells the next day because he violated his god's alignment. He can go speak to a higher clergy about how to get his spells back, who will tell him that he needs to respect the authority figures of the city, since the fact that he's still alive is evidence that they aren't evil or even neutral. He also needs to keep his party in line, or at least recognize when they are behaving evilly.

Then if they still go up against the authority figures, do what Pluisjen said.
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Well its for anyone who does not know "quest for the ashen crown" basically the party in a kind of enemy of my enemy premise ally with a party of goblins...


my party balked at allying with goblins but dont seem to have issues with double crossing dwarves or elves trying to kill them?


thanks for thr translation by the way


Wink

And we play 4th ed
If they are going to act like criminals, treat them like criminals.  Boot them out of town after the guard beats the tar out of them.  You also said they used lethal force against agents of the law, have the ones that dealt the killing blow tried for murder of a town offical.  PCs are not above the law, and if they refuse to realize it, hand them a copy of GTA and shoo them away from the table.
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I've had characters executed for insulting nobles to their faces before. Started as just an arrest, but the character cut up rough on the way to the cells (to cool off, the noble wanted the party for a job, after all). He was subdued, but one of the guards was dead. No way around that, really, the character was executed the next day for the killing.

I like my Eberron grim.
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97183719 wrote:
Seeing as there is a disconnect between balance (quantifiable) and fun, (subjective and personal) discussing fun in a thread about balance because you find one system more enjoyable than another is as helpful as discussing religion in a thread about architectural engineering because you think cathedrals look prettier than outhouses.

Let the players have their fun. If they humiliate the town guards and then insist on still distracting from the plot with their nonsense have the pc's punished then.

I know there have been too many times something I see as "obvious" goes unnoticed by my players. I would think the lesson you gave them would get their attention, but clearly it didn't. I'd consider talking to the players about the choices they're making, and make it clear that choices have consequences. I like the way you handled it thus far, but I can see how players can get easily derailed if their "heroes" just got their butts handed to them.

I've had a good number of players who do seem to think that any social authority structure is somehow beneath them because "I'm a hero, I do what I want." I was pretty sure I was going to have to give my last party a severe beating and maybe kill a couple of PCs, but they chose discretion over foolishness. I suspect similar situations are coming up if/when we get started again (I'm deployed), and I am debating how ruthless I will have to be to get the point across.

If talking to the players doesn't change anything, and they decide that their PCs are still hell-bent on revenge against the guards, then Pluisjen had some sweet ideas. IF they play nice and go along with it, but you know they really really hate those guards, then I would still try to work in the corrupt guard or guards that he suggested. I'm sure that would be very satisfying for them.

I like a system they used in the Netherlands during the middle ages:

Each town has a crest or seal.

If you commit a heinous enough crime in a town, you are branded with that town's seal and then kicked out of town.  If you ever return to that town, you are executed.

If you commit a heinous enough crime to warrant the brand, and have already been branded by two other towns, you are executed.

Well its for anyone who does not know "quest for the ashen crown" basically the party in a kind of enemy of my enemy premise ally with a party of goblins...


my party balked at allying with goblins but dont seem to have issues with double crossing dwarves or elves trying to kill them?




Partly, that is a factor of Eberron--not every creature that we typically view as evil and monstrous is in fact evil and monstrous. You could explain more of the world to them so they understand the setting better, or make adaptations to remove the strange bedfellows moment of allying with goblins.

I would stop after the fighting with city guard (personally) and reset the player's mentality a bit. This really depends on the type of campaign youa re willing to offer to the players. As the DM, you get a few rights to ahving fun, just as you make an effort to provide fun for players. If you have a campaign you are willing to present and invite them to participate, you should make sure those guidelines are in place and accepted by the players. It doesn't have to be absolute rules, but the entire thing is a game. Each person involved may have to compromise to ensure everyone can find some enjoyment in the game. 

Also, there is little wrong with the city guard making a bigger example of the inappropriate behavior. Strangers coming into town and threatening the city should spur city defenders to very immediate and conclusive action. Small insults might not be something to worry about, but an aggressive barbarian fighting to the death should induce city defenders to kill the aggressor for the safety of their city and its residents.     

You need to talk to your players, out-of-game, and explain to them what they're doing. Make sure they realize that they are being antagonistic towards the "good" guys. Make sure they realize they are not acting like the "heroes" they're supposed to be. Make sure they realize this is a heroic fantasy game, not a super-power fantasy game.


When I say "make sure" I mean just that: Ask them, point blank, "Do you understand what I'm saying? Do you agree with what I'm saying?" If they don't understand, keep going until they do. If they don't agree, ask them what they want out of their D&D, and if you're comfortable giving it to them, do it. If you're not, tell them you're not comfortable DMing that type of game, and cash in your chips.

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Dilige, et quod vis fac

I like a system they used in the Netherlands during the middle ages:

Each town has a crest or seal.

If you commit a heinous enough crime in a town, you are branded with that town's seal and then kicked out of town.  If you ever return to that town, you are executed.

If you commit a heinous enough crime to warrant the brand, and have already been branded by two other towns, you are executed.


That's an interesting one, I might have to use that.
Chandrak's awesome solutions to the 5-minute workday 'problem'
97183719 wrote:
Seeing as there is a disconnect between balance (quantifiable) and fun, (subjective and personal) discussing fun in a thread about balance because you find one system more enjoyable than another is as helpful as discussing religion in a thread about architectural engineering because you think cathedrals look prettier than outhouses.

Well its for anyone who does not know "quest for the ashen crown" basically the party in a kind of enemy of my enemy premise ally with a party of goblins...


my party balked at allying with goblins but dont seem to have issues with double crossing dwarves or elves trying to kill them?




Partly, that is a factor of Eberron--not every creature that we typically view as evil and monstrous is in fact evil and monstrous. You could explain more of the world to them so they understand the setting better, or make adaptations to remove the strange bedfellows moment of allying with goblins.


This, totally. Goblins, orcs, and gnolls are just as much PC races as the others, and more so than halflings and elves, which are mostly represented by murderous primitive tribes (although there are, of course, exceptions).
I mean, to think goblinoids were primitive monsters ignores the whole Dhakani Empire. It would be like saying Italians have never done anything worth mentioning, so they can be safely ousted from civilised society.

EDIT: And of course, I've just seen you mention you aren't playing Eberron in this case. Disregard above message.
Chandrak's awesome solutions to the 5-minute workday 'problem'
97183719 wrote:
Seeing as there is a disconnect between balance (quantifiable) and fun, (subjective and personal) discussing fun in a thread about balance because you find one system more enjoyable than another is as helpful as discussing religion in a thread about architectural engineering because you think cathedrals look prettier than outhouses.
Am I the only one here who thinks you should try and tailor your game a little more towards the players? They're obviously more interested in pursuing this than continuing with their quest, maybe you could give them a new or side quest dealing with their efforts to get revenge on the city guard.

You could have them meet up with a spurned former guardsman who got fired for whatever reason, and through him open a path that allows for them to realistically take their revenge on the guards, be that through framing the guards for corruption, hunting down and killing individual guards on patrol, or luring guards into some kind of trap.

To be honest, I would really enjoy a mission, or even a campaign, focused around that concept. And if that's what your players want to do, nobody is going to have fun if you refuse them that option simply because you are more interested in railroading them elsewhere. 
I'd better be careful about what I write as my players have been known to lurk the boards,
i like the feedback guys but I don't want to say any definite in case my players guess the plot twists.
Anyway to answer Nasal Jack
 party composition
Lawful good cleric
unaligned - barbarian, monk and wizard,

So in terms of the mission or quest for trhe Ashen crown , the Clerics archbishop of his temple has told him going on the mission is a good thing, likewise the wizards college for the wizard,

seeking revenge on the city gurad is not in my view a  Lawful good thing to do, especially when the guard were insulted by the monk, then threatened by the barbarian,

earlier the party were confronted by treasure hungry dwarves who asked them for a cut of the treasure,
the party attacked them with lethal force and only pulled their punches when the dwarves surrendered, If it wasnt for the presence oif the lawful good then certain party members would'nt have been merciful,

now they have got a beating and asked to yield by a group tougher than them some party members seem miffed the barbarian monk and cleric trying to find  the guards names to plot revenge,

now evenones games are different but lawful good clerics in my mind look after the sick ill wounded and unfortunates and protect the people. the cleric temple has a whole load of staff who do not adventure but tend the sick and the poor of the city,
I can t see a god getting many worshippers if his clergy ignored the people strolled round in flashy clothes and magic items and treated the poor with disdain, so adventuring clerics go forth on temple missions but there is a whole clergy in my campaign who look after the general mpopulace,
picking fights with city guardsman is not a lawful good clerical idea in my campaign
in fact one of he guardsman was a cleric of a god of war who was doing his civic duty and keeping the peace and dealing with trouble makers who dealt a smackdown on the party,

as for the future, they have been hired by the city to complete a mission for monetary reward, if a party got a reputation as troublemakers would patrons seek to hire them?

what about if they do get revenge on the guardsman, would not the city be up in arms to catch criminals and exile them at the least?

no temple traing or wizard school would stop the cleric and wizard going up levels?

also would,nt aggreived colleagues  and families of the guards also plot revenge? send after bounty hunters after the party if they were exiled?

I kind of put it as an analogy to present day, would policemen a swat team or military on duty put up with someone coming up to them and insulting them and threatening them with violence?
I think an arrest and charge with threatening behaviour would be the result?
If it was a full scale riot or melee going on would not the ploice force command you to stand down or suffer the consequences?

now as for the unaligned characters if they roleplay well and out of the sight of the cleric, not " how come the prisoner who surrenderedd is suddenly gut his guts cut out? er he fell on his sword repeatedly". I let them get away with what is logical.
But lawful good in my book does not mean lawful dumb or lawful turn a blind eye.

as for the future, they have been hired by the city to complete a mission for monetary reward, if a party got a reputation as troublemakers would patrons seek to hire them?



Not the same types of patrons they are getting now.  They might get offers from patrons who don't care about this type of behavior. (i.e. Villains).


what about if they do get revenge on the guardsman, would not the city be up in arms to catch criminals and exile them at the least?



Yes.  And they could probably forget about getting a monetary reward from the city, even if they complete the mission.  In this case, I would abandon the main plot line, and start following the consequences of their actions.  If the PCs don't go back to the main plot, I would also assume that the bad guys from the main story succeed in their dastardly plans, and figure out what the consequences of that success mean for the world.


no temple traing or wizard school would stop the cleric and wizard going up levels?


In 4E you don't require training or sponsorship of this type to level, and under the assumed rules, you don't lose access to your divine magic if you betray your dieties tenets.  That doesn't mean the "LG" clerics faith doesn't label him a traitor and heretic and start trying to bring him to account for his actions/inactions.

also would,nt aggreived colleagues  and families of the guards also plot revenge? send after bounty hunters after the party if they were exiled?



Why yes they would.

I kind of put it as an analogy to present day, would policemen a swat team or military on duty put up with someone coming up to them and insulting them and threatening them with violence?
I think an arrest and charge with threatening behaviour would be the result?
If it was a full scale riot or melee going on would not the ploice force command you to stand down or suffer the consequences?



www.nij.gov/nij/topics/law-enforcement/o...


now as for the unaligned characters if they roleplay well and out of the sight of the cleric, not " how come the prisoner who surrenderedd is suddenly gut his guts cut out? er he fell on his sword repeatedly". I let them get away with what is logical.
But lawful good in my book does not mean lawful dumb or lawful turn a blind eye.



A good point.

You have a decision to make at this point: Can you DM a group that is evil?  If you can't then you may have to have a chat with your players, indicating that you are not comfortable with the direction that the game has taken and offering to step down as DM in favor of someone who is willing to DM and evil party.

If you can, then here is how I would handle it: abandon the main plot, and follow the plotline the Players are clearly wanting to follow, but do not let them off the hook for the consequences of their actions.  For mission style adventures that means that they are going to start seeing patrons who are more and more overtly evil, and missions which are more and more overtly evil.  They are also going to have law enforcement breathing down their necks, bounty hunters dogging their steps, and will no longer receive support from organizations (such as the "LG" cleric's temple) that would have once welcomed them.  Of course, this assumes that they are careless enough to be discovered.  If they do it right, then there are no consequences.

What I would not do is tell them they were playing their alignments wrong or (I realize this hasn't been suggested) make them change the alignment listed on their character sheets.  They should realize how evil they have truly become when they get a truly heinous mission (like maybe assassinating the head of the "LG" cleric's order).
Unaligned ≠ unsmart.

If the players are acting like fools them have their foolishness come back to bite them in the ass. In the real world, anyone who mouths off to cops and threatens them with violence will get arrested. In a D&D world they'll probably just get killed. Next time don;t pull your punches. If your players want to act like idiots let them deal with the repercussions of those actions.
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Advice for DMs: Always dangle a lot of plot hooks in front of you players. Anything they do not bite you can bring back and bite them later. When considering a new house rule ask yourself the question "Will this make the game more fun?" Unless the answer is a resounding yes don't do it. Advice for Players: Always tell the DM not just what you want to do but also what you are hoping to accomplish. No matter how logical the result is it will never happen if it simply never occurred to the DM. "That's what my character would do" is not a valid excuse for being a disruptive ass at the table. Your right to have fun only extends to the point where it impedes the ability of others to do likewise.
Actually, from what I've seen in real life and on the documentary/reality show "COPS", police tend to put up with a lot of nonsense before they decide someone has acted like a big enough troll that something needs to be done about it.  At least, it works that way in real-life America and England around the turn of the 21st century, and I imagine police in most countries and eras probably aren't much different.

But, I think it comes down to this: if one or more players are playing their characters as deliberately harassing innocent NPCs, arrogantly mouthing off to helpful authority figures, and acting like all-around creeps, and other players aren't having fun and your job as a DM is unnecessarily hard and frustrating because of it, then it's an out-of-game problem, and those can't be solved in-game.

So, ask yourself if it's a real problem first - it's a real problem if the players aren't having fun, or if you can't DM effectively because of it.

If it is a problem, in this case it really amounts to players in real-life vandalizing a game world you are going through some trouble to create, and (hopefully) the other players are doing their best to work with you to support; talk to the troublemakers, find out what's wrong, fix that out-of-game problem, and then agree on how to deal with cleaning up the mess in-game after the out-of-game problem is fixed.

However, if it's not actually a problem, then it sounds like you've somehow captured the players' imaginations with the city guards as antagonists, whether you meant to or not.  If they're having fun with it and you're up to the challenge, you can take the PCs-vs.-City Guard storyline and run with it, and the players will likely have a blast and remember the game fondly. Sounds like you were trying to go with a published module... perhaps the PCs stop a corrupt city watch, earn the thanks of the town, and find in the guard captain's pocket a valuable clue that would have come from monsters in the published module, to get the PCs back on the Module's Railroad with little fuss   (Basically, you'll be trading in some of the published adventure's encounters with things reskinned with a city guard theme:  for example, a module's fight with a Drow patrol can be exchanged with a fight with a group of corrupts guards instead.)

Good luck
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You need to talk to your players, out-of-game, and explain to them what they're doing. Make sure they realize that they are being antagonistic towards the "good" guys. Make sure they realize they are not acting like the "heroes" they're supposed to be. Make sure they realize this is a heroic fantasy game, not a super-power fantasy game.


When I say "make sure" I mean just that: Ask them, point blank, "Do you understand what I'm saying? Do you agree with what I'm saying?" If they don't understand, keep going until they do. If they don't agree, ask them what they want out of their D&D, and if you're comfortable giving it to them, do it. If you're not, tell them you're not comfortable DMing that type of game, and cash in your chips.




Seconded.  And maybe thirded.
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I suggests impressment if they try that again. I had a party that messed around with some samurai gaurds by insulting their leader and intimidating them. So I had them arrested and forced into joining them for a few years. This made them learn their lesson.

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Did any PC kill a member of the guard during their altercation? If so that player's character should be imprisoned and tried.

The LG cleric's church should demand atonement for his actions (assuming he participated and didn't just stand aside and let his party members be slaughtered for being idiots).

If they want revenge on the guards you can give it to them, but it sounds like your PCs just want to cause trouble and disrupt the game world by being holes. If they want revenge you can make a story arc where they find out about corruption within the guards ranks and then bring them down, even letting the PCs slay the gnome who is at the head of it all. This would give the PCs the revenge they want, a proper atonement for the cleric, and forgiveness for their earlier evil acts from the city and uncorrupted guards.
This is all well and good,but i feel kissofthescorpion has not quite given you all the facts.It all started when we where on the Ashen Crown Adventure.We where told to report to the head of the city guard called Merric Rismas,we of course found this funny and as one of the players had a jovial happy go lucky halfling he called him santa and he agreed to do the quest as long as he got a present.Anywqay all was fine untillthe party left santas office then the dm had a group of city guard kill us all .This was on the pretext of getting us all to show respect to the captain of the city guard.We where then raised and told not to do this again.If you equate this to modern times the bobbys who killed us would have been arrested for a evil act and duly imprisoned.Other instances have arisen in our questing where the dm gives us little or no choice but to defend ourselves with little or some vague choice to make to the bereft of our party.The dm and players have been playing for over 25 yrs and it seems to me that our experience shows a threat to our dm's campain,and know he is trying to stereotypical all our players to take the roleplaying out of the game and just play by the numbers.It is a shame i have been a player anda dm myself for years but i have allways said that kissofthescorpian was the best dm i have known.It is a shame that he has forgotten the core principles of this Role playing game.
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