Etched Monstrosity and Melira, Sylvok Outcast

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If I cast Etched Monstrosity with Melira, Sylvok Outcast already on the battlefield, will Etched Monstrosity still enter the battlefield with 5 -1/-1 counters on it?
No, it won't. 10/10 right off the bat! The definition of "a counter being placed on a permanent" includes that permanent entering the battlefield with counters.
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This same rules point has come up so many times recently, it's really weird.

Entering with counters = placing counters, so no, it's a 10/10.
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This question has come up a lot. And it's been answered wrong almost every single time:


614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.


Bolding mine. So it will get the counters, because it ignores the ability of Melira. And yes, I know about the ruling for Tatterkite, but that's his own ability, so that's different. And of course, we might be getting new rules that change this, but this is how it's standing now. I really hope this is in the FAQ (one way or the other).

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This question has come up a lot. And it's been answered wrong almost every single time:


614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.


Bolding mine. So it will get the counters, because it ignores the ability of Melira. And yes, I know about the ruling for Tatterkite, but that's his own ability, so that's different. And of course, we might be getting new rules that change this, but this is how it's standing now. I really hope this is in the FAQ (one way or the other).

Except that rule covers replacement effects and Melira, Sylvok Outcast doesn't have one of those; she has a static ability that changes the rules of the game. Specifically:

Creatures you control can't have -1/-1 counters placed on them.


Also, that appears to conflict with the ruling on Doubling Season which would suggest that the counters can be affected by replacement effects anyway.
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This question has come up a lot. And it's been answered wrong almost every single time:


614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.


Bolding mine. So it will get the counters, because it ignores the ability of Melira. And yes, I know about the ruling for Tatterkite, but that's his own ability, so that's different. And of course, we might be getting new rules that change this, but this is how it's standing now. I really hope this is in the FAQ (one way or the other).

614.12 is used to determine whether or not the replacement effect applies. And, as you point out, the 614.12 states that the replacement effect does apply.

But just because a replacement effect is applicable doesn't mean it is effective. 
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.

The modified event (entering with counters instead of without counters) is impossible, so you ignore the impossible part..
But just because a replacement effect is applicable doesn't mean it is effective. 
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.

The modified event (entering with counters instead of without counters) is impossible, so you ignore the impossible part..


Placing counters on it is only impossible if you do not ignore continuous effects from other sources which 614.12 instructs you to ignore.

Placing counters on it is only impossible if you do not ignore continuous effects from other sources as 614.12 instructs you to do.

614.12 is only concerned with figuring out which replacement effects apply. 614.12's instruction to ignore continuous effects has no jurisdiction outside of that narrow situation.
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

 
...and now I'm confused. So what's the consensus? Wait and see how Melira is explained in the FAQ?

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Yes. We are determining whether or not the replacement effect of EingTB with -1/-1 counters applies and how it is applied.

That pretty specifically applies to this situation.
We are determining whether or not the replacement effect of EingTB with -1/-1 counters applies and how it is applied.

And since we ignore all other continuous effects, the replacement effect DOES apply.

Now, that we know it applies, we apply it, taking into account the rules for applying it. In particular, this rule:
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.

We are determining whether or not the replacement effect of EingTB with -1/-1 counters applies and how it is applied.

And since we ignore all continuous effects, it DOES apply.

Now, that we know it applies, we apply it, taking into account the rules for applying it. In particular, this rule:
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.



You seem to be intentionally omitting the "and how it is applied" part.

Good luck with that.
Melvin Day is fast approaching with a definitive word, but it's pretty clear to me that it will ETB without counters.
 
You seem to be intentionally omitting the "and how it is applied" part.

I put that text in bold, so i'm not sure why you're accusing me of omitting it. In any event, that text isn't relevant. That is for cases where a replacement effect can do different things depending on the characteristics of the objects involved, which isn't the case here. 

---------

How about we look at another situation where 614.12 and 614.6 are both relevant:

I control Lich and Maralen of the Mornsong. I use Braidwood Cup's ability. When that ability resolves, what happens?

We check if there are any applicable replacement effects. There is: lich's replacement effect. We apply that replacement effect, and now rather than being instructed to gain 1 life, I am now instructed to draw a card. This instruction is impossible, so nothing happens.

Are you saying that the card draw happens?
614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.

The modified event (entering with counters instead of without counters) is impossible, so you ignore the impossible part..

How do we know the event of putting the counters on is impossible? We're talking about creating an object in a new zone with counters on it. These don't happen sequentially, they happen simultaneously, how can the static ability prevent something that happens the same moment that it starts working?

edit: to be honest, I don't know what should happen, but I can see it going either way.

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You seem to be intentionally omitting the "and how it is applied" part.

Good luck with that.



Following your logic, Urabrask the Hidden's second ability doesn't do anything at all.
 
How do we know the event of putting the counters on is impossible? We're talking about creating an object in a new zone with counters on it. These don't happen sequentially, they happen simultaneously, how can the static ability prevent something that happens the same moment that it starts working?

If you mean the case with Tatterkite, i agree with you that there is a hole in the rules there, and that it doesn't work as it should. I'm talking about the case with Melira, Sylvok Outcast, where the effect exists ahead of time and independant of the object that is entering the battlefield.
You seem to be intentionally omitting the "and how it is applied" part.

Good luck with that.


Even if "and how it is applied" has meaning (I'm not sure that it does), it cannot mean not to apply replacement effects that result in impossible action; 614.6 is quite specific about what to do in that case.

Try looking at it this way; what rule tells you to do it the way you think it should be done?  Rule 614.12 does not; it tells you which things to take into account when determining whether and how to apply certain replacement effects, but it doesn't tell you how to use those things to come to a determination.  Consider this example; I activate Kill-Suit Cultist's ability targeting Darksteel Colossus and, after that resolves, I activate Brion Stoutarm's ability, also targeting the Darksteel Colossus.  Your interpretation implies that I should gain life, but, in fact, I should not.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast's effect is not a replacement effect, so 614.12 does not apply, huh?

614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen--they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like "shields" around whatever they're affecting.

614.1a. Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word "instead" to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.
614.1b. Effects that use the word "skip" are replacement effects. These replacement effects use the word "skip" to indicate what events, steps, phases, or turns will be replaced with nothing.
614.1c. Effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ," "As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ," or "[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . " are replacement effects.
614.1d. Continuous effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . ." or "[Objects] enter the battlefield . . ." are replacement effects.
614.1e. Effects that read "As [this permanent] is turned face up . . . ," are replacement effects.

Meliras Ability is neither of these, so 614.12 does not apply.

614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.


The last part of this Sentence seems to contradict  Doubling Season's ruling on EtB Effects (and its desired Interaction with Graft or Chorus of the Conclave).


 

[c]Forest[/c] gives you Forest
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield, continuous effects generated by the resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent’s characteristics on the stack (see rule 400.7a), and continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.

The last part of this Sentence seems to contradict  Doubling Season's ruling on EtB Effects (and its desired Interaction with Graft or Chorus of the Conclave).



Rule 614.12 lets you determine what the event is.  It doesn't give a complete list of possible sources of replacement effects.  There are a bunch of replacement effects lying around, and 614.12 tells you what parts of the event those replacement effects can see.
I understand that, but have a look at 614.1a - e:

614.1a. Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word "instead" to indicate what events will be replaced with other events.
614.1b. Effects that use the word "skip" are replacement effects. These replacement effects use the word "skip" to indicate what events, steps, phases, or turns will be replaced with nothing.
614.1c. Effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ," "As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ," or "[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . " are replacement effects.
614.1d. Continuous effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . ." or "[Objects] enter the battlefield . . ." are replacement effects.
614.1e. Effects that read "As [this permanent] is turned face up . . . ," are replacement effects.

Again, Melira's effect is not a replacement effect. 614.12 does not apply. Etched Monstrosities Ability will try to place Counters, but will find that the Monstrosity can not have Counters placed on it.
[c]Forest[/c] gives you Forest
Yes, that's true.  I don't see how that's related to Doubling Season doubling counters from Graft.  Rule 614.12 does not keep that from working.
"and how it applies" refers to something like Sunburst, which has a different effect based on whether or not the entering permanent is a creature or not. That is, the "how" is "how it will look if we apply it," not "if it doesn't have an effect due to some other effect saying that the action is impossible." Melira's ability, due to the rule that states something EtB with counters counts as placing counters, will keep things from entering the battlefield with counters on them.

MTG Rules Advisor
 

So we have three camps: those that say Monstrosity gets counters, those that say it doesn't and those who are uncertain.

Can we have an [O] ruling in advance of this weekend please? Matt_T or Natedogg. 

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It's under discussion. Unless something changes soon, you'll probably get an update with the Rules Update.

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Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

Heh, you stumped them. That should come with a free box of cards as a prize or something Melira is going to cause so many problems Just love her. The interaction with glistening oil is just priceless.
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Not really stumping. More like "If we make this ruling, will this counteract rulings based on similar situations in the past, and, if it does, which ruling (the old one or new one) should be correct? Also, if we rule this way, will it cause other cards to not work as intended?"

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Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

Not really stumping. More like "If we make this ruling, will this counteract rulings based on similar situations in the past, and, if it does, which ruling (the old one or new one) should be correct? Also, if we rule this way, will it cause other cards to not work as intended?"



Off-topic - Summary of judge meeting regarding the card interaction - www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tJjNVVwRCY

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Yes, that's true.  I don't see how that's related to Doubling Season doubling counters from Graft.  Rule 614.12 does not keep that from working.


DOH! Woah, that Rule is not worded easily...
Not for the faint of Heart, indeed...
[c]Forest[/c] gives you Forest
With Melira, Sylvok Outcast on the battlefield, your Etched Monstrosity will enter the battlefield with no -1/-1 counters and be 10/10. There'll be a brief mention of this in the Update Bulletin. Sadly, I didn't include this question in the FAQ.
With Melira, Sylvok Outcast on the battlefield, your Etched Monstrosity will enter the battlefield with no -1/-1 counters and be 10/10. There'll be a brief mention of this in the Update Bulletin. Sadly, I didn't include this question in the FAQ.

Any chance of an update on the apparent conflict between the second ruling for Doubling Season and CR614.12?
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Any chance of an update on the apparent conflict between the second ruling for Doubling Season and CR614.12?

How is that a conflict? We run through 614.12 to see whether the replacement effect that says it enters the battlefield with counters applies. It does. Since that replacement effect is applicable, doubling season's replacement effect also applies.
616. Interaction of Replacement and/or Prevention Effects

616.2. A replacement or prevention effect can become applicable to an event as the result of another replacement or prevention effect that modifies the event.
Example: One effect reads "If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead," and another reads "If you would draw a card, return a card from your graveyard to your hand instead." Both effects combine (regardless of the order they came into existence): Instead of gaining 1 life, the player puts a card from his or her graveyard into his or her hand.

Doubling season's replacement effect is not one that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield, so 614.12 is irrelevant to whether or not doubling season applies (not that it would matter... doubling season's effect would pass everything required by 614.12, because doubling season doesn't care about the characteristics of the object entering the battlefield). 
Doubling season's replacement effect is not one that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield, so 614.12 is irrelevant to whether or not doubling season applies (not that it would matter... doubling season's effect would pass everything required by 614.12, because doubling season doesn't care about the characteristics of the object entering the battlefield). 

isn't it though? if I drop a Vigean Hydropon, it shows up with 10 +1/+1 counters which means that the effect has to modify the way it entered the field. Meaning there is no point where it is on the field with just 5 counters.

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isn't it though? 

No. 614.12 directs the reader to 614.1c and 614.1d for the definition of replacement effects that modify how a permanent enters the battlefield.
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) [...]

Doubling season's effect matches the description of neither of those rules.
614.1c Effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ," "As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ," or "[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . " are replacement effects.

614.1d Continuous effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . ." or "[Objects] enter the battlefield . . ." are replacement effects.

Doubling season's replacement effect is not one that modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield, so 614.12 is irrelevant to whether or not doubling season applies (not that it would matter... doubling season's effect would pass everything required by 614.12, because doubling season doesn't care about the characteristics of the object entering the battlefield). 

isn't it though? if I drop a Vigean Hydropon, it shows up with 10 +1/+1 counters which means that the effect has to modify the way it entered the field. Meaning there is no point where it is on the field with just 5 counters.



Doubling Season's second ability's effect can modify how permanents enter the battlefield, but there is still no inconsistency.  Doubling Season needs to know that counters will be placed on the permanent that will be created as part of the event, and that's all it needs to know to apply.

Edit: Well, perhaps Doubling Season doesn't directly modify how a permanent enters the battlefield; it modifies how another effect modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield.
Edit: Well, perhaps Doubling Season doesn't directly modify how a permanent enters the battlefield; it modifies how another effect modifies how a permanent enters the battlefield.


Exactly.

And we don't need a ruling to tell us that Etched Monstrosity enters the battlefield without counters when Melira is in play. That's already covered by the rules.

We're just waiting for Tatterkite.
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