PAUP: Should Components of Familiar Storm be Banned?

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I am not sure if this actually goes here.  However, it is a topic about an online only format, and being that this is the only forum for mtgo that gets a lot of traffic I chose to post this here.

I have noticed a trend in Pauper events, Nearly every one I have joined has many people complaining about the familiar storm deck in event chat.  If you are not familiar (pun intended) with the deck, it is basically card's from Urza's Saga that allow you to untap lands when they come into play and things to make these cost less mana.  This allows you to play a lot of spells to draw cards and eventually temporal fissure all of their permanents back to hand.

Like I was saying before, Nearly every pauper event I join, I see a group of people complaining about this deck in the event chat.  I was wondering what people on the forums thought about it as people coming into this thread don't have the sting of losing, or the headache of winning with opponent having 15 more minutes gone from clock than you do.  I was wondering, is it just people complaining on the game that want it banned, or do others too.  Is it being watched at all?   This is kind of how I break it down...

Reasons to Ban Familiar Storm
1. It may very well be the top deck in the format, I do not have the numbers to back it up, but this deck wins a lot.  I see it constantly in the top decks, and not sure any deck has a higher win percentage than it.
2.  This may be the most boring deck to play against in any popular current format.  Comboing off with this deck takes very long, (and does not actually produce a kill for another few turns.)  One thing this deck does is it gives the opponent a choice between pressing f6 and walking away from the computer for 5-10 minutes, or sticking with f2 and having a good chance of the familiar storm player timing out.  This does not seem like a good way to play magic to me.
3.  The deck makes tournaments drag on.  Outside of slow mirror matches (goblin or muc) the last match of the round usually involves familiar storm.  When one deck consistantly takes much longer to play than every other deck in the format, this seems like a bad thing to me also.

Reasons not to Ban Familiar Storm
1. Although the deck is very good, it is not dominant.  It is not as dominant as something like Cawblade in standard, and nowhere close to something like Survival or Flash in legacy before it was banned.
2.  What would be banned?  Taking away one thing that makes the deck work might make an even slower (but less powerful) version of it.
3.  Banning something from this deck creates sour feelings from those that have put in the money to play this deck and the time to practice with it.
4.  As usual, banning things because people don't like it can create a very slippery slope of people not liking more things.

From what I have read about bannings, it seems to always come down to four things.  Is the deck to powerful?  Do you have to play this deck or a deck based on counteracting it to compete?  Does the deck promote a fun game of magic?  Is the deck driving people away from the game/format?

1.  Is the deck to Powerful?  I really do not think it is, although it is probably the best deck, it does not have a huge dominance of the format.
2.  Do you have to play this deck or a deck based on counteracting it to compete?  I think the answer to this is, absolutely not.
3.  Does the deck promote a fun game of Magic?  No, not at all.  Not even remotely close.  Like I said before, when people in event chat discuss if they have the patience to press f2 and hope the opponent times out, or if they just f6 and walk away, that is a horrible way to play.  The length of the games involving this deck could constitute a banning very similiar to Sensei's Divining Top being banned in extended.
4. Is the deck driving people away from the game/format?  I think this may be true.  All I have is anecdotal evidence though.  I have been on a crusade to get more of my old friends from the format to get back into Pauper.  The answer I get is almost always the same, they got sick of playing against familiar storm.

I am not quite sure what should be done.  I would be happy if this deck disappeared, but I am really not sure if making bans for these reasons is good.  One thing is for sure,  I see this deck complained about a lot.  I see people frustrated by it complaining about it in event chats.   I see people in casual calling pauper a dumb format due to it.  I see people in auction room not wanting to join an event, and citing this deck as the reason. 
With all of this, I am just wondering what the people on the forums think of this.  Are those in WOTC watching it?  Do those not complaining think that the complaints are legitimate, or just griping?  Does this deck make those not playing pauper more or less likely to play the format?
Believe me it's alot more boring for the person playing it than for the person playing against it, plus they have to play it all four rounds. That said, it is the best deck, and it's not a deck that a random person can pick up and do well with, so I like it in that sense, but I lost the patience to keep playing it after about 10 events. On the bright side all the cards in the deck just keep going up
I heard we're supposed to post in green if we don't like the new forums.
the deck is more popular now because it was featured in "building on a budget"
besides, Pauper is full of broken cards, Affinity and Metalcraft is just silly with artifact lands, for example.

the solution is not to ban cards, but to create a "Standard Pauper" or "Extended Pauper", leave the eternal format alone for the nuts that enjoy it, and give a proper format to the rest of us.
proud member of the 2011 community team
I'm really not quite sure that the "building on a budget" article has to much to do with it.  It was heavily played long before that article came out, and may even be less played now as the 5 minute decrease in time has hurt it more than anything.

I've wanted Frantic Search banned for many months now.


The issue isn't that the deck is unbeatable.  It's that it's unbeatable by most other decks, many of which would otherwise be playable.  Goblins gets lots of wins, but I can come up with 100 decks that beat Goblins and almost all of them will lose to Frantic Storm.  So at best that turns the metagame into Rock-Paper-Scissors.  There used to be much more room for innovation and now simply isn't, and since we're not likely to get any printed answers I think axing a card that's already banned in Legacy is a fair call.

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.

I think if people spent time brewing decks instead of spamming every available forum with this tired old argument then the next big deck would arrive sooner.
Let's be honest -- we're not talking about banning Frantic Search because it is too powerful.  We're not trying to nerf a deck that is too powerful, we're trying to nerf a deck because it is no fun to have in the format.  A cursory glance at all the daily events from last week shows that Familiar Storm took about 1/3 of all 4-0 or 3-1 placing decks.  That is not really that much, burn for example does almost as well.

That being said this deck really is no fun.  Although I know people that think banning Frantic Search is rash, I don't know anyone that actually likes the fact that this deck is in the format (least of all the pilots).  Furthermore its presence is both driving people from the format and discouraging new players.  As such I would be for banning Frantic Search if the arrival of New Phyrexia does not change the meta much (and it very well may what with the infectious goodies).

A side note:  The Pauper Deck Challenge recently changed the ban list to:
Cranial Plating
Frantic Search
Grapeshot
Goblin Bushwhacker
Crypt Rats
Armadillo Cloak
Cloudpost
Kiln Fiend
Atog
Disciple of the Vault
Mystical Teachings
Momentary Blink
Brainstorm

just to mix things up.  I placed second with GW Slivers and had more fun playing pauper then I have had in quite a while.  There were a surprising amount of players that hadn't played in a while that came back specifically because Frantic Search and Grapeshot were banned.  So something to consider.
Honestly? Daily event and 2 man queue players are not doing it for fun, they're doing it for prizes.
No card was ever banned because it made a format 'not fun'. besides, no two people would agree on what is fun anyway.

And to be precise, the tpdc banlist was for just the one event, TPDC Alt Format Double Points Special.

A side note:  The Pauper Deck Challenge recently changed the ban list to:
Cranial Plating
Frantic Search
Grapeshot
Goblin Bushwhacker
Crypt Rats
Armadillo Cloak
Cloudpost
Kiln Fiend
Atog
Disciple of the Vault
Mystical Teachings
Momentary Blink
Brainstorm



What are you talking about?  I don't see any reference to that banning in the thread you linked to.  All it says is:

Banned:
Cranial Plating



??? 

Honestly? Daily event and 2 man queue players are not doing it for fun, they're doing it for prizes.
No card was ever banned because it made a format 'not fun'. besides, no two people would agree on what is fun anyway.

And to be precise, the tpdc banlist was for just the one event, TPDC Alt Format Double Points Special.



Gotcha - that makes sense.  I would be surprised if TPDC took that drastic of a step without having a comprehensive vote on the matter.

By the way, my official take on the matter is that the metagame in Pauper gradually shifts.

*  About a year ago, people were complaining about the dominance of Mono-Black Control, and there were calls to ban Crypt Rats.

*  Earlier this year, people were complaining about the dominance of Goblins, and there were calls to ban Goblin Bushwhacker.

*  Now, people are complaining about Frantic Storm, and there are calls to ban Frantic Search.

I think the big difference between the first two I listed and the last one is that Frantic Storm is a combo deck.  Combo decks are boring to play against.  But "boring" should not be a criteria in determining whether a card gets banned. 

The only time I've seen where a card gets banned/restricted simply for its impact on how "fun" the game is to play is Sensei's Divining Top, which honestly is something that I still don't understand to this day.

Personally, I don't like playing against Control decks...to me, it is more fun to watch someone pull a combo off and trying to prevent that combo from going off than having every single action that you perform stopped.  But then again, I haven't requested Counterspell be banned.

I think that Frantic Storm will eventually become less of a factor just like MBC and Goblins have become lesser threats.  But in the meantime, I can understand the angst around that deck.
IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_isred.jpg)

Deleted double post

IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_isred.jpg)
...
No card was ever banned because it made a format 'not fun'.
...


Not quite true.
Link to article is here:
www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.a...



But in the past three months R&D and the DCI have been reminded that Magic is not a series of balanced equations, spreadsheets of Top 8 results and data of card frequencies. Magic is a game played by human beings that want to have fun.


One of the most damning statements that can be made about a game is that it is not fun, and that's exactly what we've been hearing lately about Standard. Sure, ever since Affinity first showed up after the release of Mirrodin (and more so after it was revamped and supercharged with the release of Darksteel), people complained about it. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence in my inbox of people quitting Magic, threatening to quit, or stepping away from Standard for some amount of time because of the dark cloud of Affinity—and believe me, each of those emails made me unhappy—but recently the evidence of the general public's disdain for what the format looks like has gone from anecdotal to measurable. With some of the biggest Standard events of the year—Regionals, Nationals, and Worlds—on the horizon, how many more players could we continue to frustrate and alienate?


We know what to do if a format is horribly unbalanced, but what do we do when it is equally unfun? As much as I'd like to hire clowns to make balloon animals at every Friday Night Magic, we're stuck using more traditional means of damage control—the Banned and Restricted Lists.


At this point I hope it is becoming clearer why we did what we did, but I'll keep explaining anyway.



Guess what? Chicken butt.

Honestly? Daily event and 2 man queue players are not doing it for fun, they're doing it for prizes.
No card was ever banned because it made a format 'not fun'. besides, no two people would agree on what is fun anyway.



I wasn't aware that playing for prizes and playing for fun was mutually exclusive....Sensei's Divining Top was actually banned due to making games go long, very much like this deck.
I really don't know something from this deck needs to be banned.  As I said above, it is not a power level thing, I know many people (including myself) who do very well against this deck.  It is just that even winning you have probably spent five minutes playing magic and 15-20 f6'd.  I am not sure or not if it needs banning, I am more than anything wondering if WOTC is watching it's effects on the format and how many players are returning, have stopped playing the format, etc.  I just think that saying "I think if people spent time brewing decks instead of spamming every available forum with this tired old argument then the next big deck would arrive sooner." is completely wrong when so many people already do so well againt it.

A side note:  The Pauper Deck Challenge recently changed the ban list to:
Cranial Plating
Frantic Search
Grapeshot
Goblin Bushwhacker
Crypt Rats
Armadillo Cloak
Cloudpost
Kiln Fiend
Atog
Disciple of the Vault
Mystical Teachings
Momentary Blink
Brainstorm



What are you talking about?  I don't see any reference to that banning in the thread you linked to. 



Yes that was just for one event and just to mix things up for a chance.  That ban list was not ment to fix anything, just a change for the hell of it.  The link was just so people could understand what TPDC was and I couldn't find the link for the current season for some reason, I see how that could be confusing.


Gotcha - that makes sense.  I would be surprised if TPDC took that drastic of a step without having a comprehensive vote on the matter.

By the way, my official take on the matter is that the metagame in Pauper gradually shifts.

*  About a year ago, people were complaining about the dominance of Mono-Black Control, and there were calls to ban Crypt Rats.

*  Earlier this year, people were complaining about the dominance of Goblins, and there were calls to ban Goblin Bushwhacker.

*  Now, people are complaining about Frantic Storm, and there are calls to ban Frantic Search.

I think the big difference between the first two I listed and the last one is that Frantic Storm is a combo deck.  Combo decks are boring to play against.  But "boring" should not be a criteria in determining whether a card gets banned. 

The only time I've seen where a card gets banned/restricted simply for its impact on how "fun" the game is to play is Sensei's Divining Top, which honestly is something that I still don't understand to this day.

Personally, I don't like playing against Control decks...to me, it is more fun to watch someone pull a combo off and trying to prevent that combo from going off than having every single action that you perform stopped.  But then again, I haven't requested Counterspell be banned.

I think that Frantic Storm will eventually become less of a factor just like MBC and Goblins have become lesser threats.  But in the meantime, I can understand the angst around that deck.



Everything you say is pretty much right.  Familiar Storm is not even dominating that much.  Things are slow to change and the meta will adapt.  I certainly wouldn't do anything until a couple of months after New Phyrexia comes out.

The thing that people are really complaining about is how Familiar Storm changed the meta game.  It's not that it's broken or unbeatable, but how it pushes out a lot of tier 2 decks and makes things seem rock/paper/scissorsish. 
That and the deck is no fun. 

But a poll here among pauper players currently sits at:


  • Take no action (with 11 votes)

  • Unban Cranial Plating (with 8 votes)

  • Ban or Restrict Frantic Search (with 6 votes)


So there is that.

"Not fun" and the pauper format go hand in hand.  After the first time I played a teachings mirror in pauper, I never wanted to play the format again.


The spells out class the creatures by way too much, and you end up with horrid attrition matches, and people trying to win by attacking with 2/2s.

Some of the decks obviously aren't like that, but the control decks are, and you will face them multiple times in an event because they're good, and it's just beyond belief boring.


Really wish we could get some new formats, and that they would support them with tournaments with good prizes, like they did before with Weekend challenges.

I think if people spent time brewing decks instead of spamming every available forum with this tired old argument then the next big deck would arrive sooner.



I used to, from would-be hero Blastoderm to farther-afield stuff like Citanul Woodreaders and Desecrator Hag.  Ones with interesting creature combat.  They don't have a shot in hell anymore because cards do not exist to let these decks fight the brokenness of storm + untapping.  Goblins beats Frantic and I can beat Goblins a hundred different ways but then lose to the Frantic player.  I'm really not interested in playing Rock, Paper, Scissors.


I'll say what I said months ago: Frantic Search is making Goblins too good.  And people will just gloss over me saying it because "lol, they're not even in the same deck, Amar".  So I guess I can say it again in a couple months if I'm still playing.  

If you're on MTGO check out the Free Events via PDCMagic and Gatherling.

Other games you should try:
DC Universe Online - action-based MMO.  Free to play.  Surprisingly well-designed combat and classes.

Planetside 2 - Free to play MMO-meets-FPS and the first shooter I've liked in ages.
Simunomics - Free-to-play economy simulation game.


"Not fun" and the pauper format go hand in hand.  After the first time I played a teachings mirror in pauper, I never wanted to play the format again.


The spells out class the creatures by way too much, and you end up with horrid attrition matches, and people trying to win by attacking with 2/2s.

Some of the decks obviously aren't like that, but the control decks are, and you will face them multiple times in an event because they're good, and it's just beyond belief boring.


Really wish we could get some new formats, and that they would support them with tournaments with good prizes, like they did before with Weekend challenges.




I'd have to agree with this. If i wanted a format where every deck looked to either attack for 2 or play a bunch of removal spells I would go play in a draft. 

Despite being made of only commons, Pauper is still an eternal format. Eternal formats should revolve around powerful strategies. Only commons shouldn't mean "no powerful decks". If people want to play their mid-range pet decks that gold-fish on turn 7 they should do so outside of the Daily/Premier Events (Or I will suggest the Extended Pauper or Standard Pauper player run events)

Frantic Storm is good yes, but no deck has been or should be banned because it was 20-25% of the metagame. It even has a horrible matchup against Goblins, which is another popular deck. Its matchups against Affinity and Burn are not so good either. Heck its matchup against Infect is downright awful, and Infect is going to be 10x better after the next set.

Just to pre-empt the guys who always love to jump in and say random ignorant things like "cry more" "learn to play better" "build decks that don't suck" "evolve" etc. etc. and all that rubbish:

I've won 3 pauper PEs

Brettwayne was the first player to top 8 with the earliest version of frantic combo

The next week I top 8'ed with what looks most like the modern versions we see now less the familiars

I believe lookacard was developing the deck early on also and added the familiars later (A strong addition and a good idea obviously)

I quit for a year hopeful that by the time I got back they would have realized how silly frantic combo was, how bad it was for the meta, and how much it limited the metagame. Banning 1-2 cards could make 100-200+ cards playable again. I figured with a years time someone would fix this mess. I come back and find a lot of other good players never bothered to come back...and the meta is still in the same mess.


Just went 4-0 in a pauper Daily event today. Got on to play while posting some posts on this item. I actually quit for a year. Not because I couldn't still win...it takes about the same amount of effort to win now as always...the only difference is it is much less intellectually stimulating...the metagame is more predictable...sideboard decisions less difficult...overall analysis of the game easier....in a word the game got:

Boring~

Although this would be a copy paste decklist spike's dream. Which is probably the largest core group of supporters of not changing the current meta.

That is why a lot of good players quit. It wasn't because they couldn't still win...some of us play for more than winning and losing. Sure we want to win...we are competitive...but when there is one defined best deck for so long the game just gets dull.

Just keep in mind as many good players as bad players have quit, granted for different reasons, but vastly because of frantic storm.

There is more to a metagame than a players individual wins and losses. An insightful player should value the overall health of the metagame. Some people are too ignorant, self focused, or narrow visioned to do that, and it is unfortunate.


The deck warps the format. Metagame analysis isn't properly done solely on how much a deck wins. It should be done based on what impact it has on the metagame.

I.E.
-how many other decks become unplayable?
-Of the decks that are playable how many of them exist solely because they are there to beat one deck?
-How much does the metagame adjust all to compete or deal with one deck?

Just looking at pure wins and losses is not insightful of the bigger picture. During Mirrodin even affinity didn't actually win all the time. Decks arose that were designed to beat affinity. Some decks arose to beat the decks that beat affinity. And of course everything was running skull clamp. But affinity warped the whole metagame so that everyone was focused on one deck as the primary consideration.

And anyone who says not fun is not a consideration in banning a card is simply ignorant. This is one of the stated factors that WotC does consider. They have stated as much.


Familiar storm is winning more than any other decks in the history of pauper. You could argue that goblins and Mono black control won as much during their time. I would disagree. However, for the sake of arguement lets see its true. Even still, MBC, and goblins never warped the whole metagame.

You can build a deck that beats goblins while still building your deck to beat the rest of the field. And you didn't have to settle for a narrow range of options. You could take lots of decks and make them competitive in the goblin dominant meta lots of decks were viable. New innovations could be easily designed. The same goes for the MBC erra.

The familiar frantic storm combo era is very different. An objective and discerning person can see that. It isn't how much the deck wins it is how great of an overall impact it has had on the metagame. I.E. how many decks are simply not viable, how few options there are to innovate new deck ideas.

there have always been grumblings to ban storm, but nothing else has come even close to the outcry that frantic storm has brought about...or caused as many people to quit playing.

Comparing frantic storm to other previous dominant decks is just ignorant.


Another interesting thought here:

During the MBC dominant era LOTS of new decks arose to push MBC back. During the days of Goblins, not as many new decks arrived, but quite a few did to push goblins back. As certain decks died off new ones arose.

In familiar storm land no new top rated decks have arrived to push the deck back.

A lot of decks died and nothing new came out. That should tell you something.

In pauper there aren't as many options to hate out a deck like familiar storm as goblins or mbc or even TPPS. Any dominant deck could be pushed back.

Familiar storm a year later:

Still king, still widely played despite awareness of it and hate against it. I.E. no other pauper deck has as easily shrugged off hate.

Red deck can beat it, Storm can beat it, stompy can beat it, MUC can beat it, Post can beat it

Post is pretty much second rank stuff though. And MUC is not good enough against most decks right now to be worth running.

In my estimation you can run Red deck, goblins, stompy, affinity, storm, or familiar combo in this meta. (4 aggro options that basically play the same...or 2 combo decks...)

Just sad, from a metagame that before encouraged creativity with new decks constantly showing up and winning strong. I really enjoyed being able to show up and compete in a meaningful way with a new deck each week if I wanted to....those days are over.

Which is truely sad~

Also keep in mind that while this debate might sound 50/50 all the players who quit aren't around to vote or put in their 2 cents because they said enough is enough long ago.


 Donbird you are my hero. Very well thought out and correct post in many ways. I think your logic extends to even beyond pauper and the collector fan boys need to tone it down a bit and think about what you are saying and why you are saying it. I have played since unlimited in paper and quit for many many years because of the points you made. I may come back from time to time but because of this cookie cutter, forum decklist or die mentality I never stay nor do I spend any real money on what used to be a great game. It saddens me to see the commericalization and destruction of this game by the points you made. Again stellar post my friend and I agree completely that original players hate what this game has turned into.
 Donbird you are my hero. Very well thought out and correct post in many ways. I think your logic extends to even beyond pauper and the collector fan boys need to tone it down a bit and think about what you are saying and why you are saying it. I have played since unlimited in paper and quit for many many years because of the points you made. I may come back from time to time but because of this cookie cutter, forum decklist or die mentality I never stay nor do I spend any real money on what used to be a great game. It saddens me to see the commericalization and destruction of this game by the points you made. Again stellar post my friend and I agree completely that original players hate what this game has turned into.




Thanks for the shout out

<3


post dedicated to several good players, friends and foes alike, who quit in disgust over this meta~
To begin with:  I am no expert in Pauper.  I have never played it, never intend to, and only barely understand this thread.

I'm posting here because it seems eerily familiar to what happened to Vanguard (my favorite constructed format of all time) before it died.  Vanguard had plenty of issues with deck dominance, but it didn't really die until the meta went what I call "100%".  That is, you could sit down, see the other person's avatar, and know exactly who was going to win the match.  I actually had a game where I (playing a Mirri deck) went turn-1 forest, ornithopter, birds of paradise and my opponent (playing a Teysa deck) immediately conceded the match - and rightly so.

It wasn't that any deck was unbeatable.  Mirri was the most dominant, but it was easily bested by other decks around.  The mirri mirror match was so awful that it was sometimes worth conceding a match if you were going to lose game one just because playing two more games was so unfun it wouldn't even be worth winning.  

Eventually, people were getting turned off by the format, so Wizards came in and changed a couple life totals around, which didn't help the format at all.  It festered for a while before Wizards decided to just up and ban 75% of the avatars, at which point the format lost the whole playerbase and was eventually discontinued.


So back to Pauper, reading this thread reminded me of the middle of Vanguard's story, where a lack of action lead to the most unhappy ending possible.
In familiar storm land no new top rated decks have arrived to push the deck back.

Post can beat it.  Post is pretty much second rank stuff though.



So Post has arrived on the scene and yet no "top rated" decks have arrived to push it back.  Doesn't that say that Post may be developed further to better compete with the other decks?

Personally, I tend to have a lot more hope for the Johnnies out there (me being one of them) than you seem to be giving people credit for.  Post is an example of a deck that has evolved from the current meta, and there are bound to be others that get developed...in time.


IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_isred.jpg)
In familiar storm land no new top rated decks have arrived to push the deck back.

Post can beat it.  Post is pretty much second rank stuff though.



So Post has arrived on the scene and yet no "top rated" decks have arrived to push it back.  Doesn't that say that Post may be developed further to better compete with the other decks?

Personally, I tend to have a lot more hope for the Johnnies out there (me being one of them) than you seem to be giving people credit for.  Post is an example of a deck that has evolved from the current meta, and there are bound to be others that get developed...in time.






If the johnnies are going to make a deck to change the metagame, they have plenty of time to try while they are f6'd for 8-10 minutes whenever familiar storm tries to combo off.
Yeah, playing against combo can be boring, but then again (as I mentioned earlier) I would rather play against combo than play against control.  Check my post count if you wonder why.

By the way, once the next standard set gets released, I am betting that a new deck will hit the scene that will put a serious damper on Familiar Storm's parade and its lack of creature removal.
IMAGE(http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_isred.jpg)
I'm not involved enough to know how good the deck is, but from reading the thread it seems that the deck isn't good enough to receive bans on power level concerns alone, and the format is not degenerate (I appreciated Emoticon's post and I felt it was valid to have it here, but given that pauper is currently not degenerate from what I read in the thread, that makes the comparison with the death of Vanguard invalid).

If what I read in the thread is accurate, I am therefere against banning. I was against banning the artifact lands back in Mirrodin (which has been already quoted in the thread as an example of "fun-based" banning) and I was against banning Top (which is the other relatively recent example of a ban not based on power level). I still feel these were mistakes and created a bad precedent, so I would not like to see that happen in Pauper.

Ivo. 
In familiar storm land no new top rated decks have arrived to push the deck back.

Post can beat it.  Post is pretty much second rank stuff though.



So Post has arrived on the scene and yet no "top rated" decks have arrived to push it back.  Doesn't that say that Post may be developed further to better compete with the other decks?

Personally, I tend to have a lot more hope for the Johnnies out there (me being one of them) than you seem to be giving people credit for.  Post is an example of a deck that has evolved from the current meta, and there are bound to be others that get developed...in time.





are you serious? Are you really serious...post is a joke compared to esper storm. Check the numbers. It doesn't 3-1 or 4-0 or more importantly top 8 in PEs or pull down wins like esper storm...not even close...

its a second rated deck, it has little impact on the meta..Check the PE results, check the metagame daily results. Go to PDC.com and look at Posts share of the meta...



P.S.

choosing what deck to play has never been so easy. Bring esper, tweak sideboard, auto-win tickets. Look on in disbelief at the people who think this is balanced. *shrugs* its no fun but at least its easy tickets I guess.


"Doesn't that say that Post may be developed further to better compete with the other decks?"

Please re-read my post with that in mind.

:sigh:
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You posted saying my thread was moved/locked but nothing happened.


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why are you killing a relevant thread?
why are you killing a relevant thread?



He tapped one white mana, he is now exiling this thread.  you can go find a basic land though. 

but i agree its going to die anywhere else. 
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.

Yeah, I hate that this got exiled to the Tourney board...it is definitely a valid topic for discussion, regardless of the differing opinions that are out there.

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i'm definitely in the category of "quit pauper because of frantic storm".  i really enjoyed playing pauper, but when that deck took off, i couldn't handle it anymore.

i'm well known in the standard section of the forums for my love of playing blue... but blue can't stop the damn deck.  i'm running hindering touch... and it makes me feel dirty.  the card sucks, but is one of the few ways i can think to handle storm.

i've already started my own thread, made my case several, several, several times, but to no avail.  i'm for banning frantic search, and likely won't play pauper again until it happens...

sucks too, because i had a sweet UR control deck that was a lot of fun to play, and had great matchups against every deck in the format.... except esper storm.

ha, just like how i play UB control in standard.   great matchups against every deck in the format... except for caw blade.  even there i'm playing ridiculous sideboard cards just to handle it.

hindering touch = guard gomazoa, i guess.....

Blue is the best color ever. How do you deal?  ------------------------------  Team GFG - "gulf, foxtrot, gulf" 

 

 

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Best Pauper Deck in the format, not close:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2974646#comment-49713276

 

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