Zrinyi assault howitzer

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I think that Zrinyi Assault Howitzer characteristics must be some kind of mistake: the gun has only 8/8/7 against panzers, but these values don't illustrate historical effectiveness of gun, which was able to fight against T-34 tanks.

I suppose that Zrinyi's stats should be revised. What are yours opinions?
Likely because its only a 105mm L20 howitzer and not to 75mm gun that was planned but never manufactured. Same basic gun as the Wespe with a shorter barrel so therefor less dice. Played mine a few times and thought they were pretty good bang for the buck.

John
Yes, I know that Zrinyi was not 'true' tank destroyer, but it was very effective. The number of dices don't illustrate this. The chance to destroy or even damage T-34 is near 0. I'll try to find some texts about its anti-tank abillities and paste here some links (now I only possess some books in polish).
Is this what you're talking about?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/43M_Zr%C3%ADnyi

From what I can see, it looks like it was more of a infantry support weapon than even an assault gun. It was built with an assault gun design in mind, but in practice it appears that it's less than favorable. I don't even see any mention of it fighting against T-34s.
To put things into perspective, consider the German sIG 33 Assault Gun.   She mounted the impressive 150mm Howitzer but only recieves an AV of 8/6/4.  By comparison the 105mm Howitzer of the of Zrinyi at AV 8/8/7 stacks more favorably.  This is especialy noted at the all important medium and long ranges.  

There are alot of factors that go into stats for a weapon.  It's not just bore size and penatration values.  Their are other abstract facets applied to keep the game simple and fast.  I think the Hungarians came out pretty good with Zrinyi in AAM.

GW 
Your Avalon Hill VCL 0c9b9c4639e3c9294f5e1f424cee47a3.jpg?v=42600


I understand this comparative argument but I am still convinced that Zrinyi 'needs more dices' due to I have found some information that Zrinyi's gun was good anti-tank weapon. You can look at these links:
mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/hun/Hungary....


de.wikipedia.org/wiki/43M_Zrinyi



Maybe there are not many detailed informations, but I suppose that more we can find in book:
Peter Mujzer, The Royal Hungarian Army, 1920-1945. Volume II. Hungarian Mobile Forces.
I think too that detailed description of Battle of Turda, where fought 10th Assault Gun Battalion (which used Zinyi IIs) could be useful.

Assuming you are not confusing the 75mm gun with the 105mm L20, I do not believe the HEAT round was available for the 105mm howitzer as it was with the German 105s. This will make a huge difference in its AV stats.

At what range were theses kills reported at?

To properly analyse this you must look at the other similar AAM  Units as stats are compareable from one similar unit to another. You also must look at velocity, barrel length and shell mass as not all 105mm guns are created equeal. To see this, just look at the 76mm US gun and compare its penetration data to the (77mm) 17 pounder. One millimeter of diameter and there is no comparison in kills.
I do appreciate the frustration with Anti-vehicle stats for some units.  Keep in mind in addition to a weapon's ability for armor penetration there are other factors involved; things like rate of fire, accuracy, training of the crew, quality of ammunition and historical performance of the weapon.  Other games take some of these factors into account separately (like Flames of War for example).  While AAM, lumps them all into 3 numbers so it can be hard to parse out what's all being affected by what variable.

Another thing to take into account is as the Zrinyi stands now is it worth its point cost?  This would be the less historical way of looking at an AAM piece but you may find the piece to be a bargain or a dud.  Any corresponding change in AV stats would raise the cost of the piece.

Just some stuff to think about.  I hope your search for more information leads you to what you're looking for.
Viva la Resistance! Proud Member of Axis & Allies Underground
OK. Thak you for your replies. If I find some more detailed informations, I will paste them here and/or I will put here some comparison between 105mm L20 and similar guns.
Its OK to post your research here, but bear in mind its your playgroup that should be involved it creating a new Card if thats what you wish to do. We can agree to anything but it wouldn't be official so it would be courtious to involve them also. Perhaps after your next game a discussion and presentation would be in order.
I'm back. Please, look at the link below:
www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1...

It is the best English article, I had been able to find. Although It comes from web page of another wargaming system, I believe that the informations included in it are possible to verify in other English source. (Nota bene: these data are rather consistent with information from possessed by me polish books about fights in Hungary and Transylvania during 1944 and 1945).

A short mention about Zrinyi's effectiveness against Soviet armour you can find also here:
mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/hun/Hungary....

And in german Wiki:
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/43M_Zrinyi
(Focus your attention on paragraph:
Die ersten Sturmgeschütze wurden im Herbst 1943 den Kampfeinheiten übergeben. Die Fahrzeuge kamen während des Rückzuges aus der Ukraine und während der Verteidigung der Slowakei und Ungarns zum Einsatz. Obwohl es sich bei der Primärwaffe nicht um ein reines Panzerabwehrgeschütz handelte, war die Haubitze gut geeignet zum Bekämpfen sowjetischer Panzer wie dem T-34. Der Einsatz gegen die gegnerischen Panzermassen hatte jedoch keinen Einfluss auf den Kriegsausgang.)

What do you think about it? Should be Zrinyi II's anti-tank capacity revised?


The lack of responses is confusing... Isn't the koncking out 17 T-34 by Hungarian 1st Assault Gun Battalion (they used Zrinyi II) good reason to change the Zrinyi's stats?
IMO, no.
Viva la Resistance! Proud Member of Axis & Allies Underground
IMO, no.



Could I ask why do you think so?

(I have found also new link about Zrinyi):
www.sead.us/Zrinyi_History.html
It's a purpose built assault gun, not a tank destroyer.  For an assault gun, it already has pretty good AT stats.

By the way, your sources contradict each other.
Viva la Resistance! Proud Member of Axis & Allies Underground
They could have taken out those T-34's with luck, or skill or maybe they said it was 17 when it was maybe half. In this game, like others have said, a lot of different things go into the stats of a gun. It's caliber, the ammunition it mostly used, accuracy of the gun, the training the crew likely recieved...I don't think the Zrinyi should get better stats, I think the Hungarians should just get a better at unit than what they have now.
It's a purpose built assault gun, not a tank destroyer.  For an assault gun, it already has pretty good AT stats.



Really? Let's compare Zrinyi's stats with other assault guns like e.g. StuG III Ausf. D (short barrel 75mm cannon only!) or Sherman 105mm.

By the way, your sources contradict each other.


I want only show that Zrinyi was able to destroy or heavily damage T-34. But you are right - some details are different.


They could have taken out those T-34's with luck, or skill or maybe they said it was 17 when it was maybe half. In this game, like others have said, a lot of different things go into the stats of a gun. It's caliber, the ammunition it mostly used, accuracy of the gun, the training the crew likely recieved...



Luck? It was not one-time event. And the number of T-34 is puzzling: 17 or half (not 2 or 1!).

Sill? Probably it was important factor. But why suggest that Hungarian assault gun crews were weak, if history seems to show that they were rather good trained? Why this factor cannot be represented in Zrinyi's stats?

I don't think the Zrinyi should get better stats, I think the Hungarians should just get a better at unit than what they have now.



I will be very happy, but is it really necessery? We have got plenty of Tigers, Panthers and PzIV tanks. If crew training is not important, we must only paint Hungarian signs on them.

Lord X we appreciate that you "promote" a "better" Zrinyi, But I think you should let rest the case - the majority seems to prefer  the Zrinyi "as is".

Maybe we get another Sculpt with the 75mm in the future.

Actually I think a cheap specialized unit helps more than a expensive all purpose vehicle...

I think an Hungarian Stug III (g) would be a perfect reprint in the next set ;) (or Romanian ;))
...,... and Rock'n Roll - but Minis are fun too...
I think an Hungarian Stug III (g) would be a perfect reprint in the next set ;) (or Romanian ;))



Personally I prefer rather original Hungarian/Romanian equipment: Turan II or Nimrod or Csaba (for Hungary) and Resita ATG or TACAM - 60 or TACAM R-2 (for Romania).

It just occurred to me that this is an Elite unit and could have its own card made but its certainly no reason to change the origional WotC card.
Destroying 17 t-34's easily could have been luck, the soviets first of all, always put the ammunition on the top of the tank, behind and around the turret, and because assault guns would fire up, whenever it hit that area, the T-34 would most likely start burning up. This idea did have ups, like the tankers could reload and fire another shell faster than panzers, panthers, and tigers, but was still very vulnerable. The fuel tanks are also hitable from the top. This problem is still here today with modern Russian tanks. Also what is possible is that it hit a track or the gun barrel, which is easily accomplished with assault guns. 
Bundesarchiv B 145 Bild-F016221-0016, Russland, Brennender T-34.jpg
I read a lot about tank crews that developed stratagies to explote any weakness a heavy tank had. Targeting gun barrels and mantlets was a common tactic against German heavies. So its plausable to consider that a tank company could of used a common tactic against a superiour enemy and come out victorious. I don't support changing the origional but creating a Veteran or elite version sounds doable.

The potentcy of the 88 was that it was present, in reasonable numbers, when it was needed, They had them. We did not. And anything an enemy has which makes life unpleasant for you tends to earn a larger-than-life reputation. Ian Hogg IMAGE(http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu197/obermasterfuhrer/Axis%20and%20Allies/Resignationsig2.jpg)A&A Underground AAM Database
I agree with AH_Ober. It sounds like a good consensus.