Competitive Vintage on a Budget

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One of the most self-contradictory phrases I can imagine is "Budget Vintage."  Many decks are considered "budget-friendly" to players because they have few expensive cards, and are thus easily constructed when competing in any event that allows proxies.  In no other format is competitive play considered anything other than DCI-sanctioned Magic.

The sad reality is, until Wizards of the coast revises its reprint policy (unlikely in the near future, although it could be made a reality if reasonable voices such as Stephen Menendian's hold any sway,) or until they allow proxies in sanctioned tournaments (unlikely to ever happen, which is probably a good thing,) many players will simply not be able to compete at a professional level.

However, aside from being the format with the best return on your investment (as anything playable in Vintage is likely to remain so indefinitely, and only increase in value,) Vintage is also a rare environment where budget decks can compete in a unique way.

A budget deck is, quite literally, a deck that doesn't cost very much money.  In every other format, budget is also code for "using cards that are subpar versions of other, more expensive cards."  As a result, not only are many deck types completely inaccessible, those that are playable with budget versions are inevitably weak, watered-down versions that have little chance of competing.  Those that do well only do so by virtue of being rogue decks with good matchups against the dominant decks, exploding into a field that is not prepared for them.  Time and exposure eventually rebuild this deck into something that is as expensive as any other deck.  The truly successful budget deck is rare.

The unique way in which a Vintage deck may compete, however, is by attack the expensive manabases of the top decks.  Only in vintage is there such a common thread: almost all decks run 5-10 sources of artifact mana as their primary means of acceleration, as well as an expensive suite of lands, usually consisting of Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, Underground Sea, and Polluted Delta, among others.  Even Null Rod-based Fish decks running 4x Wasteland include, at the very least, Black Lotus and any on-color moxen.  As Mark Rosewater correctly points out, even the most budget-friendly of decks is improved by the addition of Black Lotus.

However, because of these constants in the world of Vintage, until Black Lotus gets reprinted, we will have to settle for these:

Blood Moon
Chalice of the Void
Elvish Spirit Guide
Magus of the Moon
Null Rod
Simian Spirit Guide
Wasteland

Many of you have probably seen decks using some or all of these cards.  These cards have the twin advantages of not costing much money and punishing those who do.  These seven unrestricted cards together do not make a deck.  But they are a start.

There are other cards that could be included, depending on the expected metagame.  I've seen a few dozen viable decklists running some or all of these cards.  There are several things to remember when building a deck on a budget in vintage, that unfortunately (since many players building on a budget are new to the format) greatly undervalued by budget players.  They are good general rules, but especially important to budget players:

1)  There is no room for pet cards.  I love Myr Welder.  I think he's so cute.  I will never stop looking for a deck for him.  I most certainly will not, however, try to shove him somewhere that he doesn't belong. *pause for giggles* You can make a deck based around a lot of cards.  Your favorite card probably falls into this category.  You can make a deck on a budget based around... not so many.  Your favorite card probably doesn't fall into this category.  Let it go.

2)  You must understand your metagame.  Every card in your deck is important, but every card must be even more important when you are working on a budget.  If you don't have a good understanding of what decks you are going to be facing, you will have no chance of building a sufficiently reactive deck, and you sure as heck will not be able to race any of them.  You must understand, not just which deck types will be played, but which individual cards will be played.  The importance of knowing whether Shattering Spree is going to be be better then Nature's Claim cannot be understated.  A fully powered deck might recover from making a minor misjudgement like this in a tournament, but your budget deck will not.

3)  You must be willing to give up on a deck.  Goblins can probably be competitive on a budget.  Many versions of Fish, as well.  But if you play any blue, you need to run Ancestral Recall and probably Time Walk.  If you run enough blue to support it, you should run four copies of Force of Will.  There is no excuse not to.  "I can't afford it" will not win any games.  If you want to play a deck that is more expensive than you can afford, you need to be willing to either shell out the cash, invest the time and energy to make smart trades for the cards you need, or move on to another deck.  TPS is simply unplayable without power.  You can't sub in Chrome Moxes and pray for the best.  You will be defeating yourself before you ever play a game.

In summary, if you want to play budget vintage, make sure you select only the best cards, know what you're going up against, and be willing to abandon an idea that has no chance of being competitive.

Hope this helped!  As always, feel free to post or message me any comments, questions, or concerns. 

Bun

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there is no such thing as Buget Vintage. Having been away from the game in a while, looks like they are allowing proxies nows.  its because vintage has never been cheap.  now they can reprint all the old cards. now everyone will be running the same decks again, just more of them. how will that help? so more papers can play vintage, but at the expenses of the other formats.
I agree that the concept of budget vintage is flawed if you're looking at it from the viewpoint of using subpar cards to build a storm deck, or tezz, or stax.  However, it is possible if you build a deck specifically designed to punish that type of card.  That concept is where fish got its start.

I don't really understand what you mean by "now they can reprint all the old cards" though.  Do you mean because many tournaments use proxies?  That doesn't make sense, because no sanctioned tournaments use proxies.  Wizards will never allow proxies, nor should they.  However, I do think that certain vintage staples should be reprinted.  But the formats wouldn't need to be wrecked.  Wizards could simply make a From the Vault: Vintage.

The cards I would like to see reprinted are:

The Original Dual Lands
The Power 9
Bazaar of Baghdad
Force of Will
Mana Drain
Mishra's Workshop

These cards would maintain their value even if reprinted, and honestly probably increase in value.  The original dual lands could probably be safely played in standard and extended.  They are above the curve for dual lands, obviously (being arguably the best of them, with the possible exception of fetches,) but they would not unbalance standard or extended.  Bazaar of Baghdad and Mishra's Workshop are both also probably safe for standard play, although extended might break bazaar.

If all of these cards were released outside of the normal rotation, wizards would have the advantage of being able to dictate price, as well as limit the print run to smaller than a standard set, if they so chose.  The world could use another few thousand black lotuses.

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FoW and Drains are so incredibly over what WotC deems fair for counters, it would warp the format.

I don't think Bazaars would destroy the format as it is harder to abuse, but Workshops definitely would destroy standard.  I don't see how you can think it wouldn't.  It is just too good, and too easy to abuse.

EDIT:
I agree with the bulk of the points though.  The good thing about vintage is that because there IS that difference between powered and unpowered, it gives the ability to create a whole extra subtype of decks- power-hate? Which sounds funny, but you can gain an advantage against those decks if you gameplan for it.  This is something a lot of people don't realize right away.  Power cards, are considered power cards for a reason, but they do also simultaneously provide a soft spot for an opponent to attack.

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You can still make decks that kill on turn 2 for under a hundred dollars. I'm grateful that the reprint list is there. It quite frankly keeps the riff-raff out, and makes sure that something as spectacular as a dual land gets its covetous rewards.
Force of will and drain wouldn't warp standard.  They'd probably warp extended, and they'd definitely speed up standard, but I don't think it would be that bad.  Shop simply doesn't have the artifacts available to be broken in standard.  Again, probably in extended though.

And the reserved list doesn't keep the riff raff out.  It does two things: 1) it keeps almost everyone out (there are very few sanctioned vintage tournaments) and 2) the riff raff aren't really kept out.  They remain very scrubby.  The good players in other formats would migrate if they could compete on an even playing field.  Most spikes stay out of vintage because they want to win and can't compete, so you're left with a few great players and a bunch of scrubs.

And finally, for reasons too elaborate for me to go into, reprinting cards would increase their value in almost all cases.  Look at cards that have been reprinted.  The older versions are worth more.  This would remain so with staples such as Force and duals.  The only cards that lose value when they are reprinted are unplayables such as elder dragon legends and extremely narrow cards like tabernacle.  Staples ALWAYS increase in value when reprinted, because more players want them, and not only are the reprints high in value, the originals are pushed even higher.  Look at the value of beta duals compared to revised duals.  Even with the absurd leap in price for dual lands since legacy has taken off, the price of older versions has kept pace, remaining several times more valuable.

I personally believe that the best way to ensure the value of reprinted cards is to make them standard legal, but they would retain value even if released in a from the vault promotion.  Making them standard legal increases the audience greatly though, and thus the demand.

Let's say there are 10000 black lotuses in circulation (I believe the number is several times higher, but it is nice and round, so lets use that.  If reprinted in a standard legal set, the competitive audience would multiply by at least a hundred.  If mythics can climb to a hundred dollars within months of release (and retain their value, or most of it,) then surely you can see how a promotion like this would not hurt the value of a true bomb, such as black lotus.  You could even release them like super secret tech, only as foil mythic versions.  That would probably irritate people though.  But it is an option.  In any case, the value would not only be very high, the older version would only increase further in value.

The only arguments against doing this are the same stupid arguments musicians and authors have against piracy.  Material released free online concurrent with a normal release almost always boosts sales.  In the same way, old cards increase in value.  Their rarity makes them valuable to begin with, and their release into a wider format only makes them more desirable, not less.  For every person who doesn't want to trade for your beta dual because there is a cheaper version out, there are ten new people who DO want your beta dual because it is suddenly available in more formats.  The rarity is not decreased by reprints.  Old cards retain value.  Old cards that are reprinted retain even more value.  This is clear from reviewing the available data.

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The state of Riffraffery does not equate to whether one is prowessful at Magic. Doing stuff like reprinting Chain Lightning is undesirable from my perspective, because I don't care if my cards appreciate any more. I just don't want every noob wandering around chucking premier spells and lands around. It ruins the collective experience of the game.

I have a friend. He thinks new cards should outshine old cards, because his money should be worth the same as an old player's. Evidently to that notion, however, is the idea that his time must be worth immeasurably more than someone like mine's. Why else would he get to actually have something as desirable as a dual land? You shouldn't get into Magic with an expectation that the cards you'll be using are all the $80 dollar ones. Ideally, that'd be something prohibiting their use, nay, rewarding the player canny enough to speculate on which cards will wind up good. Simply net-decking what works after the fact should have that prohibitive price barrier.

In my opinion, sanctioned Magic play should not form a symbiotic relationship to which cards get printed in the first place anyways. The game was far more fun when Wizards simply didn't give a rat's ass and printed sets like Legends and Fallen Empires.

I agree that reprinting in some form wouldn't be as bad an idea as wizards makes out.

However I completely disagree about what they'd do to the formats. FoW and Drains would completely change what standard looked like. And while there aren't broken artifacts in standard, there are enough good ones that shops would dictate the format. Not to mention extended affinity would go berserk.

Reprinting though might just increase the value of beta or original power cards. It opens the format to new players, yet there is a distinct difference between a beta black lotus and a reprinted 20th edition black lotus. People pay more money for foils and set differences, people will pay more money for original cards, just to say they have it. Right now the amount of players who actually want a Black Lotus are dwindling, and those who might want it, won't because the format is hard to get into.

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This post makes no sense.

First of all, while your friend's belief that new cards should be worth as much as old cards is foolish entitlement, your belief that old cards should automatically be worth more than new cards is equally foolish.  It is even as unfoundedly entitled.  Perhaps you are the same age as your friend, and you made the wise choice to collect magic cards while he was stupid and just tried to have sex with girls.  But more likely, newer players are much younger than older players.  I think players who are truly interested can break into the game.  Power was long out of print when I started playing in 2001, but I've got a pretty pimpish collection with most of the power I want, a set of shops and bazaars, the duals I want, forces (still short a drain,) etc.

But it has taken almost a decade.  I'm not as hardcore as some players, but moreso than most.  Making Vintage more accessible is good for the environment.  If I'm ever totally screwed, I think it is nice that I can hawk a few moxen for rent, but that isn't why I own them.  I don't their value will ever go down, even if they are reprinted, and I've said before that I even think that their value would increase in the event they are reprinted, but Wizards does not owe me anything.  I don't know why they think they do.  Especially after they brutalized forgotten realms and left it on the emergency room loading dock (are we not talking about that yet?)  My point is, even if my time walk became worth ten bucks the day after they reprinted it, it would be worth it to see a Vintage Grand Prix.  I will be there with bells on and **** out.  Maybe I can finally get a signed Legacy's Allure from Hi-Val.

Chain lightning and Fallen Empires were hardly the heyday of magic.  As broken awesome as old cards were, there were no trult broken awesome sets till Urza's Saga, with the possible exception of Alpha.

Don't fight the power.  Reprint the power.  F**k your bank account and f**k your bad economics.  You will be dragged, kicking and screaming like Ed Norton in Fight Club, and in the end, you will thank Brad Pitt for it when your duals double in value in a year because there are now a thousand people at your vintage tournament instead of 15 waiting on 16.

Or you can shoot yourself in the face.

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Bun, you are cracking me up! Love the Fight Club reference.


Alright, I can agree with both sides (I hate to do that).

Reprinting more power/other cards, making it more accessible, would help the player base for eternal sets. It's hard to say what it would do to card values... that would be purely dependant on the print run IMSO (in my serious opinion). If Wizards prints 100,000 more copies of a Black Lotus, values might go down because the market could be flooded. In the long run, most people will be like "New Black Lotus for 100$ or Old for 600?... hmm... I'll just get a new". You can't guarentee there will be a high enough demand for the cards.

If there was a high enough demand, and new(er) players did jump in, then obviously, everyone would be happy in the Vintage community. 100 person tournaments are definitely much better than 16 people tournaments. We'll all see better prize support, and even more people traveling to venues.

Of course it makes no sense. You construe the heyday of Magic to be Urza's block, which was a period of time so crappy that I wouldn't play. RTFP. It's about the actual quality of cards outside the sanctioned environs. Perhaps you need to alter your paradigms so that you can see both sides of the topic.


I don't give a ****, it would ruin the cultural tropics of the game to have every other shmuck wandering around with power. What's the point of printing new cards then? Not everyone calls what they play Standard. Power creep is lame. Keeping the ceiling alight is golden.


Of course it makes no sense. You construe the heyday of Magic to be Urza's block, which was a period of time so crappy that I wouldn't play. RTFP. It's about the actual quality of cards outside the sanctioned environs. Perhaps you need to alter your paradigms so that you can see both sides of the topic.


I don't give a ****, it would ruin the cultural tropics of the game to have every other shmuck wandering around with power. What's the point of printing new cards then? Not everyone calls what they play Standard. Power creep is lame. Keeping the ceiling alight is golden.




Lol?

I don't know if we can have rational discourse.  You don't seem interested.

Power exists in vintage.  It just does.  Making it more accessible means a more even playing field.  That's a good thing.  Power creep is lame?  Um... okay?  I don't see how you're really disagreeing with me, besides thinking that chain lightning and hand of justice beats anything in Urza block.

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Of course it makes no sense. You construe the heyday of Magic to be Urza's block, which was a period of time so crappy that I wouldn't play. RTFP. It's about the actual quality of cards outside the sanctioned environs. Perhaps you need to alter your paradigms so that you can see both sides of the topic.


I don't give a ****, it would ruin the cultural tropics of the game to have every other shmuck wandering around with power. What's the point of printing new cards then? Not everyone calls what they play Standard. Power creep is lame. Keeping the ceiling alight is golden.




Also I'm not totally sure what "cultural tropics" means, but giving people more reasonable access to power is hardly "every other schmuck," and besides, part of the problem with competitive vintage is that so many good players DON'T play because they can't get good cards--the scrubby ones will often play anyway, usually something terrible like unpowered tendrils or a weird elf stompy deck.

I sort of get the impression that you didn't actually consider any of my points at all, but I think you also aren't even considering what you yourself are saying:  Power creep is lame?  What is the point of printing new cards?  Keeping the ceiling alight is golden?  How I mine for fish?  All your base are belond to us?

I'm not trying to tease, and maybe there is a language barrier here, but I really don't understand what you mean at all.  If you'd care to keep talking about it, I'm interested in convincing you.

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Of course it makes no sense. You construe the heyday of Magic to be Urza's block, which was a period of time so crappy that I wouldn't play. RTFP. It's about the actual quality of cards outside the sanctioned environs. Perhaps you need to alter your paradigms so that you can see both sides of the topic.


I don't give a ****, it would ruin the cultural tropics of the game to have every other shmuck wandering around with power. What's the point of printing new cards then? Not everyone calls what they play Standard. Power creep is lame. Keeping the ceiling alight is golden.




Also I'm not totally sure what "cultural tropics" means, but giving people more reasonable access to power is hardly "every other schmuck," and besides, part of the problem with competitive vintage is that so many good players DON'T play because they can't get good cards--the scrubby ones will often play anyway, usually something terrible like unpowered tendrils or a weird elf stompy deck.

I sort of get the impression that you didn't actually consider any of my points at all, but I think you also aren't even considering what you yourself are saying:  Power creep is lame?  What is the point of printing new cards?  Keeping the ceiling alight is golden?  How I mine for fish?  All your base are belond to us?

I'm not trying to tease, and maybe there is a language barrier here, but I really don't understand what you mean at all.  If you'd care to keep talking about it, I'm interested in convincing you.



I'm glad that you're interested in getting your point across. I of course have paid attention to what you're saying.

Now, to delineate beyond the means of mere platitudes provides scant difficulty. What I'm saying is that really rare jewelry limits design space for new cards. What's the point of collecting 2nd teir cards ever again? They'd start breaking the power ceiling if they did that...and I'd like to think that price provides a barrier against that. I play Vintage casually. What that means is Legacy, but with Sol Rings. I don't want to ever have Timetwister resolved against me in my life. That crap can stay as far away as possible, and maybe even someday I'll have access to a competitive environment restricted by price.

And by Hel, I'd like to think that I'm on a life-long mission to acquire the jewelry in as round-about way as possible.

As for Hand of Justice, that cur fell under my Aeolipiles a long time ago. What defines whether a card's good? I've long posted those "X card is not a bad card, you are" threads, trying to point out that the way the cards interlock is far more valid than whether or not they win games. I don't like Urza's block, it was crap. It was the start of a lot of bad things, like art guides. Do you honestly feel as though it's some ingenious triumph of card design to make a card that's rules text is slang for "you win the game"? I'd rather be lacing blockers together with Icatian Skirmishers anyday.


Now, to delineate beyond the means of mere platitudes provides scant difficulty.





What I'm saying is that really rare jewelry limits design space for new cards. What's the point of collecting 2nd teir cards ever again? They'd start breaking the power ceiling if they did that...and I'd like to think that price provides a barrier against that. I play Vintage casually. What that means is Legacy, but with Sol Rings. I don't want to ever have Timetwister resolved against me in my life. That crap can stay as far away as possible, and maybe even someday I'll have access to a competitive environment restricted by price.



You said you could make a deck for under two hundred dollars that kills on turn one, but you're afraid of twister being resolved on you?  If this is your worry, you aren't playing competitive vintage.  That is the purpose of this forum.  There are plenty of cards that aren't as good as power that have a big place in vintage.  There is a lot of design space.  Gifts, welder, tinker, oath, force of will, etc.  Always room for more playable cards.  A competitive environment restricted by price?  Again, I do not understand what that even means.

And by Hel, I'd like to think that I'm on a life-long mission to acquire the jewelry in as round-about way as possible.

As for Hand of Justice, that cur fell under my Aeolipiles a long time ago. What defines whether a card's good? I've long posted those "X card is not a bad card, you are" threads, trying to point out that the way the cards interlock is far more valid than whether or not they win games. I don't like Urza's block, it was crap. It was the start of a lot of bad things, like art guides. Do you honestly feel as though it's some ingenious triumph of card design to make a card that's rules text is slang for "you win the game"? I'd rather be lacing blockers together with Icatian Skirmishers anyday.



If you want to be really bad at magic, that's fine.  What I'm talking about is playing competitively.  You're talking about playing chess without queens, because you like a boring, checkers-like game.  So play checkers.  I want more people to be able to afford queens, so more people can play my complex, fun game.

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Now, to delineate beyond the means of mere platitudes provides scant difficulty.






Well, I certainly hope you're rolling your eyes in mutual concordance.

What I'm saying is that really rare jewelry limits design space for new cards. What's the point of collecting 2nd teir cards ever again? They'd start breaking the power ceiling if they did that...and I'd like to think that price provides a barrier against that. I play Vintage casually. What that means is Legacy, but with Sol Rings. I don't want to ever have Timetwister resolved against me in my life. That crap can stay as far away as possible, and maybe even someday I'll have access to a competitive environment restricted by price.



You said you could make a deck for under two hundred dollars that kills on turn one, but you're afraid of twister being resolved on you?  If this is your worry, you aren't playing competitive vintage.  That is the purpose of this forum.  There are plenty of cards that aren't as good as power that have a big place in vintage.  There is a lot of design space.  Gifts, welder, tinker, oath, force of will, etc.  Always room for more playable cards.


No, I said I could make a deck for under a hundred dollars that kills on turn two. Obviously I am playing Type 1 then. Competitively? Is sharking competitive? 'Cuz that's all that's available to me in this strata of MTG culture.

 You have a point that there's lots of room to develop around power cards, but like I said before, Magic card design should not form a symbiotic relationship with sanctioned Magic. Why not? Because it's unnatural and doesn't leave room for ingenuity in card design, you just end up with meta-crap like Leonin Arbiter instead of something groovy like Sengir Nosferatu.
  A competitive environment restricted by price?  Again, I do not understand what that even means.


Sorry for the vernacular barrier.
And by Hel, I'd like to think that I'm on a life-long mission to acquire the jewelry in as round-about way as possible.

As for Hand of Justice, that cur fell under my Aeolipiles a long time ago. What defines whether a card's good? I've long posted those "X card is not a bad card, you are" threads, trying to point out that the way the cards interlock is far more valid than whether or not they win games. I don't like Urza's block, it was crap. It was the start of a lot of bad things, like art guides. Do you honestly feel as though it's some ingenious triumph of card design to make a card that's rules text is slang for "you win the game"? I'd rather be lacing blockers together with Icatian Skirmishers anyday.



If you want to be really bad at magic, that's fine.  What I'm talking about is playing competitively.  You're talking about playing chess without queens, because you like a boring, checkers-like game.  So play checkers.  I want more people to be able to afford queens, so more people can play my complex, fun game.


Your analogy is poor. The game does not become more complex, barring side cases like that storm deck that requires a PHD to run. Or so I've heard. You're not even paying attention to what I was saying, in what context.
Neomint. Part of providing a good argument is articulating your points accurately. Posting with over the top vocabulary styles isn't impressing anyone and just detracts from any argument you may actually have. Also, acting like having a decent vocabulary makes you intelligent, therefore better, therefore correct is both childish and annoying.

You have a point about staples being staples, but there are staples in every single format. They are called staples because they are staples. No matter how much you try to water down the format, there will always be cards that are the best and are more common than others.

The analogy is close enough. You're trying to simplify a game to exclude cards that require more strategy and thoughtful reactive play because they are more powerful. If you want a nice vanilla slow tempo game, play standard. There is nothing wrong with standard and appears to fit your preferences better than Vintage. Vintage by it's definition is full of powerful cards and powerful effects. Trying to dumb down the format goes against what the format is meant to be.

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ITT: Casual Flavor-based player doesn't want other kids bringing the big supersoakers to his playground, too. He has a sort of old one, and all the new ones suck anyway because they do some such bullshit but can't turn into bats (and really who wants a supersoaker that does something relevant but can't turn into a bat, anyway?) but they're still way too awesome, but the really old ones were way too good and made everything bad, so the only good spot is in the middle where everything sucks together forever and turns into bats, hooray!

 Competitive Format Health-based players retaliate by asking Supersoaker, Inc. to please manufacture those really old, crazy Super Soakers that could shoot like a firehose being used in riot suppression, because they're tired of being the only three kids in the neighborhood with them and having no one to play with ever since little Jimmy got ground through that sewer grate by one a few weeks ago, and the cops started coming around asking questions, and everyone else's parents are telling them not to play with those kids, because you'll wind up like Little Jimmy, and then where will you be? Well if you wound up like little Jimmy, probably in the sewer somewhere, wishing you had one of those damn Riothose Super Soakers so at least you could've taken a couple of those kids down with you or maybe gotten lucky, or something. Or maybe you'll just turn into a bat. Those crazy kids will let you use a Riothose, which more or less works just like one of their Super Soakers, but you can't take it with you to Saturday's Tristate Supersoaker championship or whatever crazy **** kids get into with these things, so I guess there's not too much point and you'll probably wind up just playing in the sandbox over there with that one kid talking about the olden days when Supersoakers were made out of wood, but not when they were made out of raw watery hatred like the ones those three nutjobs with the sewer fetish have. He talks weird and won't shut up about how his supersoaker can turn into a bat, but them's the breaks, kid.

Hijinx ensue.


BREAK

While WotC will probably stand by its ridiculous decision until the format dies, I do wish they'd print something like a F:tV set for the power/duals. I like Vintage. It is my favorite format and has been for years for a number of reasons. I'm tired of never being able to go to a WotC sanctioned Vintage tournament because of some deal they made to some people a very long time ago to the detriment of any future players whatsoever who may ever be interested in those cards. Thank you, WotC, for doing your very best to let the secondary market prevent myself and potentially thousands of other people from enjoying Vintage as they have with quite literally every other format.

 And to the very next person who suggests Legacy as a remotely feasible replacement for Vintage in the realm of Sanctioned Eternal competition, HOW high is Candelabra? How far did you push duals? Tabernacle's at what? You think Force is at $40 these days because of us? You REALLY think this isn't going to happen to you ten years down the road? What you're seeing is format cancer, kids. Yeah, we're the Lucky Strikes to your filtered menthol, but you really think you're any safer? Congratulations on your 1k+ tournament attendance. We're lucky to get fifty. Stare into your future, despair, and begin sharpying basic lands. We'll see you soon.

I'm really curious how many formats WotC is going to let that assinine agreement cost them. I have money on two. How about you all?



Yes, that was a total derail. I'm not even sure there was anything valid in there. It's 6:30 AM, I wish wizards would reprint power so I'm not one of two people at my thirtytofortysomething large FNM who play the format while everyone talks about the nuances of Jaces and Squadron Hawks for four hours.


EDITED. Reason: Not nearly enough mention was made of things turning into bats.
Lmao Worldslayer <3

Mint:

A competitive environment restricted by price?  Again, I do not understand what that even means.



Sorry for the vernacular barrier.



I don't think you know the difference between being deliberately obtuse and being unintentionally ambiguous.  I believe you are going for the former, but you are coming off as the latter.

When you say "a competitive environment restricted by price" you aren't clear as to whether you want the environment to be restricted by price as in "these cards are so expensive that no one can afford them" or "these cards are so good that even though they are expensive you must play them" or whether you do not want one of these to be the case but they are, or the opposite of any of the above but you were being sarcastic or sardonic.

You literally might as well be speaking a made-up language.  Perspicacity is prerequisite to eloquence, so I certainly appreciate a voluminous vocabulary, but the only thing more foolish that deliberately speaking above the comprehension of your audience to try and seem intelligent is attempting to do so to an audience, unbeknownst to you, above your level and thus inadvertently speaking above your own comprehension, and losing the thread of your actual meaning in a morass of mixed metaphors, misspellings, and malapropisms.

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Ambiguity is the height of conveying multi-faceted ideas.
Ambiguity as a literary device only has value in poetry and fiction.  Ambiguity in a serious discussion simply obfuscates your argument (or in your case, likely, obfuscates the fact that you don't really have an argument.)

For the sake of those of us without your genius, please explain what, if anything, is multi-faceted about your ideas in this thread?

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Am I supposed to be impressed by people with readied diatribes against "big words"? I mean sure, it's hard to understand, but when I say for example, vouch for a competitive environment restricted by price, I mean that I want one of two things. I happen to want an environment where prices disable the use of power cards. This has two effects.

I don't have any readied diatribes.  I have no issue with "big words" at all.  I have issue with sentences that are clearly constructed by someone who doesn't understand half of the words they are using.  Your posts make no sense.  This might be deliberate, but it is further confounded by the fact that you are making actual mistakes on top of your garbled sentence structure.  You want an environment where prices disable the use of power cards?  Why not simply play any other format, where these expensive cards are not legal for play?  Why take away from the one competitive format that has them?

Keep your naysaying out of our forum, please.  You aren't even being elegant in your trolling.

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Alright, seeing as you're being so feckless, there's no sense in carrying on this raging shitstorm. Good day.
Le Sigh.

In what way am I being feckless?  Are you quite certain you know what that word means?  I'm certainly not being indifferent, so you must mean that I'm being ineffectual.  I'll concede that I am having no luck wringing any sense out of you, and your position seems to be that there should be room for terrible decks/cards in the most competitive format ever, but I don't know why that would be a reason to say good day to me; surely one prefers, as a general rule, to engage in a conversation that they are winning.  Have you given up because you feel so thoroughly ahead that there is no longer any point?  Because that doesn't seem to be the case to me, or likely anyone else in this thread.

Goodbye.

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Feel free to copy this into your sig, adding one to the generation number.

 

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good stuff guys!  2 questions right now

1.  How much do you think a card like a time walk would cost out of a new expansion set?


2.  In regards to building on a budget is Ghost Quarter seeing any vintage play? 
they would not release p9 in a new expansion it would ruin other parts of the game i.e. type 2, legacy ect ect.

ghost quarter does not really see play  stripmine is not all that costly and wasteland still better. those 2 lands are main pretty much.


if wizards ever and i mean ever decided to release p9 as a reprint i can see it as a Vault of...whater maybe Vault of power or vault of leetness and it would have a heafty heafty price tag on it.  
Reprinting p9 wouldn't affect Legacy unless they changed the banned list.  However, it would have a huge effect on Standard for the two years it'd be playable for.  Although, it'd probably end up getting banned quickly in both Standard and Extended, so really, I don't think it makes sense for them to reprint power since essentially, it would still only be usable in one format.  The one that in my opinion gains the least recognition.
Ghost quarter can be used as a compliment to stripmine.  It is land destruction that destroys "any land" and that cannot be countered by spells like force of will.

You can also use ghost quarter to fetch a basic land if need be. For example, in the case of a magus of the moon being in your opponents deck or even your deck for that matter.

Ghost quarter can also be used strategically if an opponent decides to use a card like mystical tutor or vampiric tutor.  End of your turn your opponent tutors to top deck a card. Their turns upkeep, sacrifice the ghost quarter to destroy "any one" of thier lands(maybe only an island or swamp or forest etc.)
If they decide to search for a basic land they lose their key card with the library shuffle, if not ghost quarter is essentially a strip mine.
............................................

As far as the P9 reprints I see why not, different playing formats would lose thier flavor for a while.

I think retailers would like to see an actual P9 reprint for more reasons than just pack/box sales.

Sealed play might be awesome for a while.
yes ghost quarter can destory my dark depths then i  say thank you for giving me a underground sea or a tropical island or what ever dual land. 

i would not use ghost quarter as a fetch land since you should be running fetch lands in your deck to get your duals out.  yes crucible can bring back your quarte and do it again but same for fetch lands and strip mine and company.  all and all ghost quarter is a very subpar card and there are many better choices out there.
I'm sorry ghost quarter states  "its controller may search his or her library for a basic land, put it into play, then shuffle his or her library"

How do you get the orange font card indicators to work?
I'm sorry ghost quarter states  "its controller may search his or her library for a basic land, put it into play, then shuffle his or her library"

How do you get the orange font card indicators to work?


After reading the previous post I immediately thought the same thing.

I'm not saying I would run Ghost Quarters but, if you say buh-bye to Dark Depths and aren't running basics, it's essentially a strip mine that lets you shuffle your library.

As for the autocarding, it's [ c]card[/c]
Only the space between the bracket and the c isn't there.  I just didn't know how to show you without having the space there. 
Thanks sharkles! I appreciate the tutorial.

              How's everyone feel about the vision charm? not playing with stick

               It does target non basic lands if I am correct??

I've got a rogue that it seems like the right card for, but seems to just sit there when i'm play testing?

it's the mill modal that seems so strong.

the artifact modal seems like a poor way to meta stax, grindstone, stick, but just a butter answer to tinker.

Any thoughts anyone?




Before I post a response to this I'd like to qualify by saying that I may not know what I am talking about because I quit Magic in 2001 and barely started playing again.  I began playing way back since the beginning in the mid-early 90's.  

When I first started playing people were shuffling power-9, no cases,  lets just put it that way.   

When power 9 went up in value the first time, mid-90's, it coincided with the rise and development of standard tournament  play and draft, at least in my area, which is a working class suburban area.  Everyone became addicted to draft, especially.  It was obvious to most of us that this is where Magic was headed.  Many of the people who had power 9 actually left what was called Type I and sold their lotuses and moxes for standard powerhouse cards, cash, or unopened boosters/sealed decks.  

After some time, it became precisely the rich boys who started the game late who ended up coming with power 9 type one decks and wielding time walks and ancestrals to make up for the fact they sucked at magic.  They confused the superiority of their cards with personal superiority.  So in essence, type I was played by the "riff-raff" as far as many of us were concerned.  I mean there was a total flight from type I cards where we lived, as we exchanged them for unopened packs and standard cards..  Part of it was that we thought that these cards would eventually plummet anyways and none of us thought magic would even still be around in 2011.  We thought type I would die off because of inaccessibility.  Did it?  

Now I am not in touch with the current meta state of deck categories I think type I as I knew it is now called vintage.  

It just makes me laugh if somebody is implying that type I are the real magic players and that new players are riff raff.  This has never necessarily been the case, though most good magic players could play type I if they wanted to shell out the money for it.   

All the best players where I used to play in the 90's played draft #1, and then standard 2nd.  Now it might have been different in environments where everybody kept their power 9 but that wasn't the case anywhere around where I was, which is the LA/Pasadena/San Gabriel Area.  

 
Miss Bun, Worldslayer....dang I missed the Vintage boards.

I thought the troll was pretty good actually.

@lightdrifter
IIRC, it was about 2001 when type 1 started to take off as the "serious" format. Or, it might have been a bit later, maybe 2003, when they introduced the new cardface, and Mirrodin block.

Mirrodin literally changed everything.

But your experience probably simply reflects the time period in which you played. Back in the day, when Ice Age was type 2 legal, what you described was certainly the case. But as type 2 kept rotating and rotating, those good players who played type 2 really wanted to keep playing with their old cards and continued to turn to type 1 to do so. Many type 1 decks were type 2 ports back then because the card pools were a lot more limited. Now the power levels and playstyles of the two formats are so far apart anyone coming into Vintage with a Standard deck is probably considered riff-raff.

I can't even remember Miss Bun's original post now, something about Budget Vintage. Can Vintage even be budget now? Even with 5-10 proxy, Legacy is driving the prices WAY up meaning even the non-ancient staples are hovering around/over $50. We were able to play Hate.dec 8 years ago, but now even the hate cards for the expensive cards are expensive.

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Vintage rocks! I dont have the P9 in my type 1 decks anymore. I use to however that was over a decade ago..... Finding a way to conquer with out is one of the beauties of this fantasy culture we call magic the gathering....
I wanted to apologize for my 5/5/11 post.   The part that mentions using ghost quarters in the opponents next upkeep.

      I suppose you can use ghost quarters in your end step after priority is passed back to you as the active player.  At that point the opponents mystical tutor would resolve and the stack would be empty. Active player now has priority and can then activate the ability of the ghost quarters  which puts the opponent in a position to shuffle and loose the card on the top of their library that they searched for or choose to not shuffle and the ghost quarters essentially acts as a stripmine.
This post makes no sense.

First of all, while your friend's belief that new cards should be worth as much as old cards is foolish entitlement, your belief that old cards should automatically be worth more than new cards is equally foolish.  It is even as unfoundedly entitled.  Perhaps you are the same age as your friend, and you made the wise choice to collect magic cards while he was stupid and just tried to have sex with girls.  But more likely, newer players are much younger than older players.  I think players who are truly interested can break into the game.  Power was long out of print when I started playing in 2001, but I've got a pretty pimpish collection with most of the power I want, a set of shops and bazaars, the duals I want, forces (still short a drain,) etc.

But it has taken almost a decade.  I'm not as hardcore as some players, but moreso than most.  Making Vintage more accessible is good for the environment.  If I'm ever totally screwed, I think it is nice that I can hawk a few moxen for rent, but that isn't why I own them.  I don't their value will ever go down, even if they are reprinted, and I've said before that I even think that their value would increase in the event they are reprinted, but Wizards does not owe me anything.  I don't know why they think they do.  Especially after they brutalized forgotten realms and left it on the emergency room loading dock (are we not talking about that yet?)  My point is, even if my time walk became worth ten bucks the day after they reprinted it, it would be worth it to see a Vintage Grand Prix.  I will be there with bells on and **** out.  Maybe I can finally get a signed Legacy's Allure from Hi-Val.

Chain lightning and Fallen Empires were hardly the heyday of magic.  As broken awesome as old cards were, there were no trult broken awesome sets till Urza's Saga, with the possible exception of Alpha.

Don't fight the power.  Reprint the power.  F**k your bank account and f**k your bad economics.  You will be dragged, kicking and screaming like Ed Norton in Fight Club, and in the end, you will thank Brad Pitt for it when your duals double in value in a year because there are now a thousand people at your vintage tournament instead of 15 waiting on 16.

Or you can shoot yourself in the face.

Hey Bun!

Wish I had your bite! Daaaam!

I can see all sides, not to stand on a fence but more because ive been on both sides. Ime old-school, started when A's n Bt's were in abundance.....a heady era!. I sold the lot....what a clot...and (a few years later) shall we say was re-united via my bros who still had some dusty cards from the heady era.

Value.....as everyone is talking about is all relative.....re-printed or not its what the game ultimately means to individuals and what they are prepared to pay. Alure for the past (as with most things of old) in its self will keep a certain type of value, but so can value for money....and access to some taste/nibble of that is what keeps the fire burning. No one should be denied a nibble!!!

So hat off to Wizards, its a win win me thinks, battle between past and present, so long as they can keep it up!......no pun intended.....!
Every time I read this thread, it cracks me up.

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I actually commented on the thread because I thought I found intelligent "real" vintage players.  I enjoy magic for fun but I also am a deck builder that admits to not having all the answers.......

so I apologize for my content being off subject .....but does anyone else enjoy the finess of type 1 or as they say vintage?  I now own a hobby shop after years of being away from magic....and I enjoy building a deck more with out the power 9......

I admit to not having a perfect deck or all the answers....please direct me to the real deal type 1 players because I am baffled where they are???

I am working on ensnaring bridge, devastating dreams, cartographer, ghoulcallers bell and stripmine/ghost quarter deck. if any one knows where deck strategy is talked about please let me know
Staples are killing a format cause if they reprinted anything of use the format would never die.

They kill the format collecters would bitch and moan about how there cards have no value, wotc dont care about that only the secondary market.
Learn about autocard here ==> [*c]Lightning Bolt[/*c] Remove "*" and you get Lightning Bolt. IMAGE(http://internetometer.com/image/27264.png) Keep extended alive for future generations so they dont have to sell out for modern. "If there is such a thing as too much power, I have not discovered it." —Volrath