04/13/2011 BoaB: "It's Gonna Be a Massacre"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Building on a Budget, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
i love mass polymorph decks.  I even have one online.  Massacre wurm looks great for it.

And even in paper the mythic is $3.25.  So well done!
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
Who was piloting that RUG deck that tapped out to cast Precursor Golem against a deck that isn't just likely, but is almost CERTAINLY playing Lightning Bolt?  Said deck is also using Khalni Garden, which is an obvious tell for Polymorph.

While I appreciate these articles for what they're worth, it might be giving some people the wrong impression that these decks are even tier 2 much of the time.
Sadly, the deck should play Jace or go home.

*sigh*
Why not go even budgeter, and play 4x Hagra Diabolist?  3 of them do 27, and 4 of them do 64.
Sadly, the deck should play Jace or go home.

*sigh*



Sadly, Jace can't be included in any true budget deck. *sigh*


Remember, this is Building On A Budget.  

Why not go even budgeter, and play 4x Hagra Diabolist?  3 of them do 27, and 4 of them do 64.



That seems viable, but flat out loses to leyline of sanctity, which is a common enough sideboard card, also they can respond to the the triggers by shooting a diabolist, meaning you only do 18. But terastodon and massacre wurm is simply funnier anyway.

Sadly, the deck should play Jace or go home.

*sigh*



Sadly, Jace can't be included in any true budget deck. *sigh*


Remember, this is Building On A Budget.  




I thought that was his point

In game two of the Caw-Blade match a series of plays happend that confused me thoroughly.

"My opponent cast Gideon Jura, attacked for another 3, untapped all his lands, and passed the turn. I drew an Island, played it, and passed the turn."

At this point in the game JVL had 3 0/1 tokens and his opponent had a squad hawk in hand with 5 mana open.

Why didn't the other guy play his hawk and use Gideon's +2?
Just curious, game 1 against RUG. You Polymorphed into Terast and 2x Wurm, turning 3 perms into creatures which the Wurms massacered. Wouldn't that only be 12 life lost?
Just curious, game 1 against RUG. You Polymorphed into Terast and 2x Wurm, turning 3 perms into creatures which the Wurms massacered. Wouldn't that only be 12 life lost?


He tapped out for Precursor Golem giving himself another 3 creatures
I actually really liked this deck.  1) Capable of winning turn 5-check; 2) Decently disruptive-check; 3) Card advantage-check.

This is my favorite sort of deck...I really like decks that have sufficient defense and CA to disrupt the opponent while still having a really solid win condition.  Also, this deck actually may be even more budget than some of the previously posted decks.  It really reminds me of the RUG deck just because it has a pretty even balance between CA, mana accell, and red removal...just with the win con replaced by Polymorph.  Seems not to be too much of a dog against several top decks either as it is capable of winning on turn 5, has the draw to get the pieces together, and can slow down the opponent even if just a tad, which is pretty amazing considering how budget friendly it is.  A very very solid deck and article.   

Another good article and an interesting deck idea.  I like that JVL has gone for a combo deck after doing a more aggro deck as it appeals to other types of deck builder.  No concerns about the budget and will be interesting what a non-budget version will be like in the next deck.

Now THIS is a Standard deck that I could get behind.  It is fun, wonky, budget, and completely out of left field.  Problem is, it dies to countermagic.  It has very little backup plan.  Heck, it can't even PRETEND to hard cast its threats.

I feel like the sideboard ended up being wasted space.  Why put more big fat in there?  Is someone actually out there playing a permanent-less deck? 

Also, I bet Garruk could find a home here as well.  Ramp + tokens = kind of exactly what this deck is doing anyway.
The shame of all these decks is that the non-budget version is frequently, as this, "add Jace 2.0".

Don't wizards get that this is not healthy?
The shame of all these decks is that the non-budget version is frequently, as this, "add Jace 2.0". Don't wizards get that this is not healthy?



I'm not sure what your problem with Jace in the current standard format is. It's not like every deck has to play him or anything. After all, there were only 32 Mind Sculptors in the top 8 of GP Dallas.
Quick stack question:

If the opponent has 2 1/1 creatures in play when the 2 Massacre Wurms and Terastodon come into play, how much damage does the opponent take, assuming the Terastodon turns three lands into 3/3 elephants?

I think the first Massacre Wurm kills the 2 1/1's so the opponent takes 4 damage total for them.  Then the second Wurm kills the 3/3's doing 12 more damage, so the total would be 16?  Or do the 1/1's stick around until both Wurms are in play so the opponent would take 20?

Thanks!
Quick stack question:

If the opponent has 2 1/1 creatures in play when the 2 Massacre Wurms and Terastodon come into play, how much damage does the opponent take, assuming the Terastodon turns three lands into 3/3 elephants?

I think the first Massacre Wurm kills the 2 1/1's so the opponent takes 4 damage total for them.  Then the second Wurm kills the 3/3's doing 12 more damage, so the total would be 16?  Or do the 1/1's stick around until both Wurms are in play so the opponent would take 20?

Thanks!


The Wurms come into play at teh same time and thus they both see all creatures going to teh Yard and thus the opponent would lose 4 life per creature.
Now THIS is a Standard deck that I could get behind. It is fun, wonky, budget, and completely out of left field. Problem is, it dies to countermagic. It has very little backup plan. Heck, it can't even PRETEND to hard cast its threats. I feel like the sideboard ended up being wasted space. Why put more big fat in there? Is someone actually out there playing a permanent-less deck? Also, I bet Garruk could find a home here as well. Ramp + tokens = kind of exactly what this deck is doing anyway.


The Massacre Wurm can't be hard-cast, but the Terastodon and four threats from the sideboard can be. And this deck has so much mana acceleration that hard-casting any of them, or casting a Mass Polymorph while leaving mana free for a Mana Leak, is feasible.

(Edited after I noticed I had been looking at the original deck called lolaphant, not JVL's version.)

Speaking of mana issues, though, I'd be tempted to replace the red with black. If nothing else, it would allow you to hard-cast the Massacre Wurm if you need to. Beyond that, Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek would handle the Sword of Feast and Famine more effectively than the burn spells did. Black has a few ways of getting Eldrazi Spawn tokens too. None are as cheap as Spawning Breath is, but the main effect of Spawning Breath doesn't seem all that important. Like the article says, it's meant for Lotus Cobra and Squadron Hawk. But the Hawks aren't too dangerous without the Swords (which, again, are better handled with discard), and the Lotus Cobra doesn't seem like a problem at all. They are almost always in the same decks as Avenger of Zendikar, and Massacre Wurms would love eating Plant tokens.
Quick stack question:

If the opponent has 2 1/1 creatures in play when the 2 Massacre Wurms and Terastodon come into play, how much damage does the opponent take, assuming the Terastodon turns three lands into 3/3 elephants?

I think the first Massacre Wurm kills the 2 1/1's so the opponent takes 4 damage total for them.  Then the second Wurm kills the 3/3's doing 12 more damage, so the total would be 16?  Or do the 1/1's stick around until both Wurms are in play so the opponent would take 20?

Thanks!


Yes, I'm pretty sure the opponent would lose 20 life. You have to declare that you're putting the Terastodon's "enters the battlefield" ability on the stack first. (If you don't, then the 1/1s would die but not the elephants.) Each Massacre Wurm is on the battlefield when its ETB ability resolves, so each causes 2 loss of life for each creature that goes to a graveyard. 5 creatures times 2 wurms times 2 loss of life is 20. See the first game for an example, where the Terastodon's ability was used on three lands and the Massacre Wurm's ability also got three Precursor Golems, for a total of 24 life lost.

You have to declare that you're putting the Terastodon's "enters the battlefield" ability on the stack first.



Definitely want to put it on the stack last, so it resolves first ^_^
Love the deck idea, but could really use a plan "B". Perhpas something that works with Awakening Zone?

I played a few games with the deck (with Copperline Gorge and Jace TMS instead of Forsee) and it really does need a plan B. I got flooded with land and tokens several times and kept seeing growth spasms. Plus, Memoricide means game over unless you can go ultimate with Jace or keep your hardcast singleton Terastodon from dying. I'm thinking it needs a lot more countermagic (though it really needs Force of Will).
A few thoughts:

1)

Spawning Breath deals with an unequipped hawk and lotus cobra, but an equipped Stoneforge Mystic seems nearly unbeatable unless you have enough chumpblockers. Perhaps Flame Slash or Into the Roil would help?

2)

In the last game against Caw-Blade, you won by burning your opponent out. This seems like it could happen fairly regularly, seeing as how Massacre Wurms often deal 12 damage. Perhaps more burn would give the deck better reach?

3)

People mentioned that the deck needs a plan B. Perhaps Eldrazi Monument with Awakening Zone could work?
First, I like that more of the decks are budget. This one all new would cost $20, which I think is towards the top of the budget for an entire casual deck.

I think taking out the red would be a good idea. By using black spells, you can then hardcast the Massacre Wurm if need be, and there are more ways to control the board.

There are 17 Black Discard cards in Standard; though, I'd say only a few are reasonable. I'd use either Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek. The later would be my first choice, as it can handle the Sowrds, Birds, and Mystics.

Also, Disfigure, Grasp of Darkness, and Smother can all handle the creatures that would be equiped (so long as the Sword isn't already equiped.

I played a few games with the deck (with Copperline Gorge and Jace TMS instead of Forsee) and it really does need a plan B. I got flooded with land and tokens several times and kept seeing growth spasms. Plus, Memoricide means game over unless you can go ultimate with Jace or keep your hardcast singleton Terastodon from dying. I'm thinking it needs a lot more countermagic (though it really needs Force of Will).



I haven't seen Memoricide played yet, but I'd think it would attack Jace before anything else. In game 2 and 3, you might need the plan B, which is why you should be able to hard cast your cards. 

MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green).

He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one."

I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago." ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************MaRo: During a playtest, I played a Reaper from the Abyss. I attacked each turn, while my opponent would chump block (he had a lot of fliers), and then I killed a second creature. This happened until he had only one creature left. I attack, he blocked, and then the following dialogue occurred:

Him: Kill your demon. Me: What? Him: My guy died so you have to kill a creature.

Me: Yeah, but why would a demon kill himself?

Him: I don't know. He's depressed there's no one left to kill.

Me: That doesn't make any sense. Him: I don't care. It's what the card says. I then take out my pen, and wrote "non-Demon" on it.

Him: You can't do that.

Me: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

As far as Plan B's go here are a few ideas:

Fireball/Red Sun's Zenith (if you have enough spawn laying around.
Furnace Celebration could actually work with the normal plan to add extra damage if you have excess of 4 spawn on the battlefield, and some mana to spare.  Would have to tweek manabase a bit for the double R, maybe replace an explore or two with a few harrows?.
Hellion Eruption
Beastmaster ascension I think it would be pretty easy to get seven spawn onto the field, pop this out of nowhere, and swing for 35.
Raid bombardment - I'm not being that serious with that one...
Eldrazi Monument as Brothir suggested.

There are others, just ones I thought could work for a deck like this.

*Note I don't really know which of these are/aren't budget, as I'm mostly a draft player.
First, I like that more of the decks are budget. This one all new would cost $20, which I think is towards the top of the budget for an entire casual deck.


I was going to say this was too strict but if this deck really is that cheap then I guess not.

I'm glad to see he listens to all of us because his decks have gotten cheaper lately. 
First, I like that more of the decks are budget. This one all new would cost $20, which I think is towards the top of the budget for an entire casual deck.


I was going to say this was too strict but if this deck really is that cheap then I guess not.

I'm glad to see he listens to all of us because his decks have gotten cheaper lately. 



Whenever I see a deck that interests me on BoaB, I price it. I don't buy or build 99.9% of them, but I at least like to know what he calls budget.

A true budget deck for me would cost $5 - $10. 

MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green).

He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one."

I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago." ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************MaRo: During a playtest, I played a Reaper from the Abyss. I attacked each turn, while my opponent would chump block (he had a lot of fliers), and then I killed a second creature. This happened until he had only one creature left. I attack, he blocked, and then the following dialogue occurred:

Him: Kill your demon. Me: What? Him: My guy died so you have to kill a creature.

Me: Yeah, but why would a demon kill himself?

Him: I don't know. He's depressed there's no one left to kill.

Me: That doesn't make any sense. Him: I don't care. It's what the card says. I then take out my pen, and wrote "non-Demon" on it.

Him: You can't do that.

Me: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

Why not motarpod over spawning breath? Seems waaay better against Caw-blade, and is more color friendly. you could also take out the Bolts for Inquision or more counters.
Also, Disfigure, Grasp of Darkness, and Smother can all handle the creatures that would be equiped (so long as the Sword isn't already equiped.

I think black could add a lot, but Spawning Breath is a 2-for-1.  You get that extra body, which you need for Polymorph.  

I haven't seen Memoricide played yet,  

Just as Primeval Titan decks were getting big, Memoricide was used as a kill card against those decks.  They have become more resiliant, so Memoricide has fallen out of favor.  But, it still is rough to play a deck that's entire strategy is hosed by a single, side-board friendly card.  

to whomever suggested Inquisition of kozilek, I dont think it is budget enough.  I mean a playset is going for at least 10$, even though it is uncommon.

I think the decks best plan B would be beastmasters ascension or a fixed mana base and furance celebration.  Like someone said, harrow could be a good way to make the celebratioon works, since it not only finds RR for celebration, but if you have one out already, then it is another sac outlet 
OK nice deck idea but I have a question... do the 3/3 elephant tokens your opponent has go to the graveyard? They are tokens...or this doesn't count?
OK nice deck idea but I have a question... do the 3/3 elephant tokens your opponent has go to the graveyard? They are tokens...or this doesn't count?



Tokens go to the graveyard like any other permanent so they activate abilities that trigger on something going to the graveyard.  However, once they get in the graveyard they disappear and can't come back from the graveyard.
IMAGE(http://pwp.wizards.com/1205820039/Scorecards/Landscape.png)
1) He had 2 Forsees in his deck
2) In game 2, he sided his 2 forsees out
3) In game 2, he drew and played a forsee that ended up winning him the game

I'm a bit confused here.
I tested the deck with 3 swamps and 3 Verdant Catacombs. Between the Catacombs and the Growth Spasms you can nab the 3 swamps if necessary to hard-cast any of the massacre wurms. Also, Mortarpod works wonders here. With plenty of tokens to use as fodders, as well as creating a token itself, it can repeatedly deal with Hawks and Lotus Cobras just as early as spawning breath can.

Also game 2 he cast a foresee he shouldn't have had in his deck. Awkward. And why didn't he choose to hit Gideon + Jace + Land with his Terastodon? That Jace let him dig down for an answer with that brainstorm which he could have prevented.
@ GreenBuster: Tnx for the help. I also cheched it at comp rules... 110.5f 
Anyone got a suggestion on what to replace Preordain with, now that it's banned?
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