Surely it's... well, whatever turn it actually is.And even if it wasn't, odds are you haven't used up your Sneak Attack for your turn anyhow. You could only have done so if you spent an action point, or had some way of attacking as a minor.
Returned from hiatus; getting up to speed on 5e rules lawyering.
I disagree alcestis about everything other than the fact that it would probably make you sterile, above example would go very smoothly because it would be like you turn didnt really end and the initiative order would not even change, and if the mobs want to trade standard actions to move away from a defender they can do that on their own turns because defenders only get one AoO a turn anyway. Although yes a ranged mob could ready to attack on defenders turn and avoid AoO and mark punishment, but I don't think thats 100% better then rogues getting near double damage. Also this is most definitely high cheese to the max, but that doesn't make it a bad idea, I was just trying to min max in a creative way I'm not saying I'd ever bring a char like this to a table.
You are exceptionally rude and pretty good and making elitest patronizing remarks alcestis, congratz bro, again all I was trying to do was throw some stuff around no idea why you have to be so fierce about what ever you are saying. And what kind of DM just kills off a party because they found a break point in the rules? A lame incompetent one with no imagination and no ability to cook up a house rule or three to get what ever the players are doing back to a reasonable medium. Regardless this has been totally derailed so I'll be moving on now.
Yeah tichrimo that's exactly my point, why not make a rogue who can deal sneak attack damage for 4 consecutive turns with minor actions and convert each of those standard actions over to ready actions with meaningless triggers to double up your sneak attack damage every round?
OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.
"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."
"People treat their lack of imagination as if it's the measure of what's silly. Which is silly." - Noon
"Challenge" is overrated. "Immersion" is usually just a more pretentious way of saying "having fun playing D&D."
"Falling down is how you grow. Staying down is how you die. It's not what happens to you, it's what you do after it happens.”
I think what he meant is doing SA damage with minor actions on four consecutive rogue's turns. So that for four rounds you're getting SA 2/round just by minor action attack + IA readied attack.
Ok this question indirectly applies to the title of the thread, but when you ready an action and then that action triggers, is it still considered your turn or rather the same turn as you readied said action?
Alcestis was simply offering you sage advice to not go down the rabbit hole you are dancing upon and even backed it up with evidence.If it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear, so be it, but to me it's a fair answer / warning.
Alcestis was simply offering you sage advice to not go down the rabbit hole you are dancing upon and even backed it up with evidence.If it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear, so be it, but to me it's a fair answer / warning.Sage advice and evidence? I don't agree. In my experience there are a few things a DM should never do, and trying to get into an arms race with the players is one of them.
...which is why the sage advice was "don't do this, it tends to start an arms race with the DM" and backed that up with the evidence of "this has happened nearly every time a player tries this"
(* = Note though that you will go lower and lower on the initiative, and once you hit bottom you cannot ready an action anymore as all readied actions become null and void on a new round.)
(* = Note though that you will go lower and lower on the initiative, and once you hit bottom you cannot ready an action anymore as all readied actions become null and void on a new round.)Do you have a rules reference for this point? As far as I'm aware, a round is the time between a character's turns, you don't lose your ready unless it fails to go off before your next turn (in the same way as you only get one Immediate between each of your turns). The timing of the end of the round is irrelevant, for the most part, as initiative is cyclical.
fwiw: I brought up this loophole when the rule first changed. Many of the respondants at that time seemed ok with it, mentioning that the trick is not completely without cost; the rogue needs to use up his immediate action for the round to make the extra attack... and those immediate actions tend to otherwise get used in optimized builds.I normally assume that a well played rogue is going to try to make everyone one of his attacks a sneak attack: i.e.:- If he doesn't have combat advantage, he will ready an action to flank- If he missed with an attack, he will use a minor action or an action point to immediately make another attack.- If a Warlord can grant him another attack, he will want it to be a sneak attack.- If he thinks an enemy might provoke, he will try to ensure he has combat advantage when the enemy does so.etc.... so when the rules provide a rogue with an opportunity use sneak damage a second time by readying an action, I guess I expect a rogue to use it.But also: if a smart enemy is getting clobbered by a defender, I guess I expect him to start trying to figure out ways to avoid it with a readied action to act on the defender's turn... and then I'll also expect smart players to figure this out and start coordinating their actions to disrupt his readied action.Still: if we have a concensus (i.e. simple majority opinion) that rogues really shouldn't be using this tactic, that's something I should probably mention in the forum FAQ. Anyone want to tabulate the 'votes'?
if players start doing it, trivializing encounters is quite doable with a coordinated party
the end result is constantly redoing the initiative board, which just isn't fun.
Sage advice and evidence? I don't agree. In my experience there are a few things a DM should never do, and trying to get into an arms race with the players is one of them.
when players start teleporting enemies into the air or over cliffs;
A) MOST teleport powers (Or maybe the Teleport rules, I don't have the book in front of me at the moment) require the target of the power to be teleported to a solid, stable surface.
There is a difference between an arms race and a necessary counter.
But the entire point of many peoples points is that there is a difference between using a Powers mechanic (Teleporting up in the air to drop for xd10 damage) and using the GAME'S mechanics to your advantage. One is "Oh, cool!" the other is "Jesus Christ, okay, let's readjust everything. Hey, do you want to take your readied action yet? What about now? Okay, let me readjust initiative here."---Also, I made a comment about readying an action and it being null at the end of a round. Does this no longer ring true?I was playing a 4E game with a few friends a while back and readied an action to cast a heal on anyone who needed it. I was second to last on the initiative order and after the last guy went they put me back second to last and said oh well. I assumed those rules still apply. . . Any clarifications or rules I can show them if this isn't true?
But the entire point of many peoples points is that there is a difference between using a Powers mechanic (Teleporting up in the air to drop for xd10 damage) and using the GAME'S mechanics to your advantage. One is "Oh, cool!" the other is "Jesus Christ, okay, let's readjust everything. Hey, do you want to take your readied action yet? What about now? Okay, let me readjust initiative here."
Yeah, you have to be careful that you declare it before the enemy declares any actions on its turn though, or you might lose your chance. (Assuming its the enemy you plan to target that gets its turn next of course.)Also ... that feels a bit OotS.
Ok, I discussed it with several others groups and they also agreed, so I've added the following to the forum FAQ:"Can a rogue inflict sneak attack damage on his turn, then do it a second time by readying an attack until just after his turn? Although RAW technically permits this, the concensus is that it is unintended (i.e. cheesy) and should not be done. This accord should also apply to a DM using a readied action to avoid certain defender powers or Offering of Justice."
What trigger are you using to ensure that the action actually triggers and isn't lost?
Nitpick I know, but there is no 'technically' about it.
would it not be more suited under the frequent questions related to readied actions, rather than powers?