03/30/2011 BoaB: "Expanding Ideas"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Building on a Budget, which goes live Wednesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
I'm surprised that neither of these versions has Into the Roil in it as a catch all to buy time and/or draw a card
well except for jace being an $8 card the changes look good.  Kiln Fiend is slightly awkward since it always, always dies lol.  Though i only play casually so the lack of jaces in mine may not hurt nearly as much.
I like fun, but competitive decks. So I might not play what is optimal but they have normally been tested to have a 2/3 winrate.
Top-tier? UB Infect plays out terribly and quest is VERY finnicky
From Game 2: "I draw a Deprive and cast Lightning Bolt and Forked Bolt to dispatch the Blight Dragon and get my opponent for 1. I then attack with Surrakar Spellblade and draw four cards. I pass back to my opponent, who attempts to cast a Phyrexian Crusader, but I have the Mana Leak. My opponent passes and tries to Go for the Throat my Surrakar Spellblade during my upkeep, but I cast Deprive to counter."

So he misses his 5th land drop, taps 2 of his 4 lands for bolt and bolt, with 2 up.  Then his opponent gets a Crusader countered (JvL is tapped out), and his opponent waits until JvL untaps to GftT the Spellblade?

Please, someone explain this to me.  How can this be a real game?
From Game 2: "I draw a Deprive and cast Lightning Bolt and Forked Bolt to dispatch the Blight Dragon and get my opponent for 1. I then attack with Surrakar Spellblade and draw four cards. I pass back to my opponent, who attempts to cast a Phyrexian Crusader, but I have the Mana Leak. My opponent passes and tries to Go for the Throat my Surrakar Spellblade during my upkeep, but I cast Deprive to counter."

So he misses his 5th land drop, taps 2 of his 4 lands for bolt and bolt, with 2 up.  Then his opponent gets a Crusader countered (JvL is tapped out), and his opponent waits until JvL untaps to GftT the Spellblade?

Please, someone explain this to me.  How can this be a real game?




Couldn't have phrased that better myself.  Any decent player knows when they're tapped out and have already represented counter magic is the best time to play removal, instant or not.  Guy bricked the game.
I think that Into the Roil as a previous poster added might be a good card to check out. My inital thoughts is that perilous myr in the sideboard seems a pretty weak solution to kor firewalker, but I guess if you plan to keep forkbolt and arc trail you aren't losing too much card advantage trying to kill it.

Trying ratchet bomb might be a worthwhile prospect since you only have 7 permanents in the deck and of those all cost 3. Its a bit slow but with the burn package its probably decent again most small creature decks.

The worst matchup I can imagine is probably going against vampires which has gatekeepers to potentially get your only creature, bloodghasts that often will outrace/attrition decks trying to have burn remove it, and inquisition to hit every card in your deck. 
This was an interesting deck, and I was quite glad to see it get another week's worth of play. Playing with only shroudy creatures is a fun situation to be in. I've enjoyed seeing this development of last week's deck - thumbs up from me. It's reminiscent of JMS's deck evolutions, which were awesome.

Play mistake in M2G1?


The opponent is about to have an active Quest for the Holy Relic.  JVL bolts his only creature, a non-summoning sick Squadron Hawk.  It seems highly likely that if JVL had left the hawk un-bolted, the opponent would have activated his Quest in an attempt to equip and attack.  JVL could have bolted in response, giving his opponent the opportunity to put an equipment (probably he'd choose a Sword rather than the Armor) onto the battlefield, but not to have it attached to anything.  That seems like it gives JVL way more time to win the game.

Thanks to everyone who helped with the design of the plane of Golamo in the Great Designer Search 2!
My Decks
These are the decks I have assembled at the moment:
Tournament Decks (4)
Kicker Aggro (Invasion Block) Sunforger/Izzet Guildmage Midrange (Ravnica/Time Spiral/Xth Standard) Dragonstorm Combo (Time Spiral/Lorwyn/Xth Standard) Bant Midrange (Lorwyn/Shards/M10 Standard)
Casual Multiplayer Decks (50)
Angel Resurrection Casual Soul Sisters Sindbad's Adventures with Djinn of Wishes Sphinx-Bone Wand Buyback Morph (No Instants or Sorceries) Cabal Coffers Control Zombie Aggro Hungry, Hungry Greater Gargadon/War Elemental Flashfires/Boil/Ruination - Boom! Call of the Wild Teysa, Orzhov Scion with Twilight Drover, Sun Titan, and Hivestone Slivers Rebels Cairn Wanderer Knights Only Gold and () Spells Captain Sisay Toolbox Spellweaver Helix Combo Merfolk Wizards Izzet Guildmage/The Unspeakable Arcane Combo Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and his Wizards Creatureless Wild Research/Reins of Power Madness Creatureless Pyromancer Ascension Anarchist Living Death Anvil of Bogardan Madness Shamen with Goblin Game/Wound Reflection Combo Mass damage Quest for Pure Flame Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle/Clear the Land with 40+ Lands Doubling Season Thallids Juniper Order Ranger Graft/Tokens Elf Archer Druids Equilibrium/Aluren Combo Experiment Kraj Combo Reap Combo False Cure/Kavu Predator Combo Savra, Queen of the Golgari Sacrifice/Dredge Elf Warriors Eight-Post Sneak Attack Where Ancients Tread Zur the Enchanter with Opal creatures Tamanoa/Kavu Predator/Collapsing Borders Esper Aggro Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and his Darksteel Reactor Theft and Control Unearth Aggro Soul's Fire Vampires Devour Tokens Phytohydra with Powerstone Minefield Treefolk Friendly? Questing Phelddagrif Slivers Dragon Arch Fun I'm probably forgetting a few...

Play mistake in M2G1?


The opponent is about to have an active Quest for the Holy Relic.  JVL bolts his only creature, a non-summoning sick Squadron Hawk.  It seems highly likely that if JVL had left the hawk un-bolted, the opponent would have activated his Quest in an attempt to equip and attack.  JVL could have bolted in response, giving his opponent the opportunity to put an equipment (probably he'd choose a Sword rather than the Armor) onto the battlefield, but not to have it attached to anything.  That seems like it gives JVL way more time to win the game.




OR, his opponent, knowing JvL's deck is full of burn leaves the quest on the table and only uses in it response to the next burn aimed at his creatures. Or leaves it until his has multiple creatures in play, as the quest abiliuty doesn't target but simply chooses a creature on resolution. JvL can't attack as he can't burn the blockers and he will lose anyway. The only way to win is to keep the quest from going active, or keep the board free of creatures once it is.

Although a turn 1 quest should win against most decks. It;'s quite unluck that hi opp managed this twice.
While playing against the U/B infect, why doesn't his opponent use the Tumble Magnets at all? They would've bought him/her at least two or three turns by tapping down the Commando's in repsonse to attacking; not that doing so would've won them the game, but still.
While playing against the U/B infect, why doesn't his opponent use the Tumble Magnets at all? They would've bought him/her at least two or three turns by tapping down the Commando's in repsonse to attacking; not that doing so would've won them the game, but still.





Shroud.
Neurok Commando has shroud.
Shroud friend, shroud.
I enjoyed this week's article as well.  I think Jace can be considered budget if he is the only semi-expensive card being run in a deck.  Most people will have a playset of the original walkers by now.
I have to agree with those saying into the roil. It would help in a number of situations, but, as someone who plays ww quest a lot, I can tell you how painful it is for the argentum armor to get bounced.
Next week, a deck that starts with the following:

4 Kiln Fiend
4 Surrakar Spellblade
4 Distortion Strike

I still have four Spellblades sitting in my binder, waiting for a deck like that.
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I found this article to be a success.  It took a budget friendly deck, and gave it a new look.  Two weeks on one deck is not a bad thing at all.  It gives you more game logs to see, plus gives you a chance to try different cards.  Last week's deck could have gone in two directions: be more aggro focused or be more control focused.  I like how you took a direction and went with it.  Splashing a bit more power without extending the budget too far seems like a great deal.

I hope JVL takes this style of article writing into the next deck evolution or two.  A two week article showing one path and then another, or two versions of a similar concept.

Another suitable addition could have been Sphinx of Jwar Isle it's a good finisher for the deck. doesn't really provide any card advantage. But it's a difficult threat to deal with.

Also a previous poster noted that this deck seems like it will struggle quite a bit against vampires.... I concure
First, I would've prefered a third game. Always seems better when the deck goes up against three others.

Second, I hate how the first rare added was Jace. I'm not a fan of planeswalkers. I think they've warped the game. They are super powerful, and super expensive. Yes, Jace has come down, but that doesn't change my opinion.

I liked the original deck, and this new one looked to play just as well, possibly better, without Jace.

Vampires do look like a problem. Maybe swap Jace and the Preordain (another card I think is given too much credit) for something that can handle them.
 

MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green).

He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one."

I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago." ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************MaRo: During a playtest, I played a Reaper from the Abyss. I attacked each turn, while my opponent would chump block (he had a lot of fliers), and then I killed a second creature. This happened until he had only one creature left. I attack, he blocked, and then the following dialogue occurred:

Him: Kill your demon. Me: What? Him: My guy died so you have to kill a creature.

Me: Yeah, but why would a demon kill himself?

Him: I don't know. He's depressed there's no one left to kill.

Me: That doesn't make any sense. Him: I don't care. It's what the card says. I then take out my pen, and wrote "non-Demon" on it.

Him: You can't do that.

Me: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

If it was me I would have Slagstorm in the sideboard (a rare admitedly but not an expensive one).  The 3 damage is enough to stop Kuldoth Red and Vampires in their tracks.
If it was me I would have Slagstorm in the sideboard (a rare admitedly but not an expensive one).  The 3 damage is enough to stop Kuldoth Red and Vampires in their tracks.



Eh.. you've gotta think, Vamps are used to fighting against Day of Judgement. A good vamp player knows not to overextend, keep a land or two in hand (for Bloodghasts), and mana open for Kalastira Highborn. Now don't get me wrong, Slagstorm is an awesome card! I play Vamps and even have one MD so I've got a nice trick up my sleave against Caw-Go/Blade, K-Red, mirror matches, etc etc. I just caution putting too much emphasis on Slaggy..

I think a Precursor Golem (although rare and a 5-drop) could be nice for this deck, though. Most often than not, a burn player will have to take out a golem to get all three. A deck like this seems like it could really use the decoys the Precursor provides.. Not to mention if they go unnattended, you've got quite the army!
Could Pyromancer Ascension fit into this deck?
Goblin Artisans - A Magic Design Blog by GDS2 Contestants and Collaborators
Seems like this deck is pretty fun to play, however how does it deal with Thrun, the Last Troll? 
Very little deals with Thrun, the Last Troll.  You just have to accept that in a budget deck you aren't going to have answers to everything.

Speaking as someone who has built a lot of these Ophidian-type decks I’d say, that the point of the deck, is to try and keep the opponents board clear while having an Ophidian (Neurok or Jace) out to keep drawing gas. This is obviously easier said than done, which means you pretty much need most of your non-ophidian cards to be cheap efficient spells to keep the opponents board clear.


 


IMO there really isn't room for stuff like Precursor golem, mind control or sphinx of jar isle.. they are much to expensive, for you to help establish that all important early board control that you need.. this kind of deck doesn’t really need finishers like that either... once you have a clear board + an ophidian, you will almost always be able to draw so much stuff, that you will be able to handle anything your opponent has to try and stop you. Good examples are the JVL games against BU infect.. once he had his guys down he was able to pretty much kill anything the other player had. The games he lost, where the ones where he was pretty much behind from the beginning. Decks like these are very good at getting ahead, but extremely poor, at getting back in the game once you are behind. This is why, its probably not a good idea to put expensive sweepers like slagstorm in the deck either.. you are trying to be proactive and aggressive. Being reactive in my experience, very rarely works. Into the roil seems like a good card for the deck though, and probably should be tested.. not sure if it needs it though, with all the counter magic.


 


BTW JVL. If you are reading this.. great work these last two weeks. I find these decks much more to my taste than what you usually build

It would actually be nice, if Jacob explained a bit more, how his decks work. Give general reason to why a deck like the ones he makes are good, like my previous post. it would help us better understand why he chooses the cards that he does, and (more importantly) help us evolve the decks in our own direction, without ruining the basic strategy of the deck. 
What about adding something like Sleep to this deck?

Chain Reaction and/or Sleep seem like excellent hate against Aggro. They are one sided Wraths of sorts that don't kill your Commandos.


 

On the topic of Treasure Mage: Hello planeswalkers. Look at your hand, now back to me, now back to your hand, now back to me. Sadly, your hand doesn't have a big game-winning bomb in it, but if you searched through your library for an artifact with converted mana cost of 6 or greater, you could get one. Look down, now back up, shuffle your library. Where are you? You're in a Magic game, and you're losing. What's that in your hand? It's a Wurmcoil Engine. Look again, the Wurmcoil Engine is now a ticket to Nagoya. Anything is possible when you cast Treasure Mage. I'm on a dragon. Currently Playing: U/R Burning Vengeance Control 10-2 http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-burning-vengeance-2/
I've been playing this list with some tweaking and it's been very successful considering how cheap it is. Aggro decks struggle against all the cheap multi-hit burn while control decks hate the commando. One card that I'm surprised to see absent is calcite snapper. It has shroud to further the plan of blanking your opponent's removal and has performed very well in most matchups. In testing it can slow decks like vampires to a crawl and gives you another early threat against control.
I played against this deck with K-Red (I know..don't say it!) at our LGS' Saturday Afternoon tourney... Pure frustration for me.. I got out both games (lost 2-0) early with some damage but once he started getting some mana online... I was stopped cold... Everything I put out on the board got burned.. and once he got blue mana going the burn shifted to me and everthing I put on the board got countered. He got a Neurok Commando out and whittled away for card draw and burned me down. 

I'm also wondering if a couple copies of pyro ascension would fit in here. seems like one or two would be a good late game finisher after you start getting in with the Commando's/Spellblade and drawing. haven't built it yet but im sure ill play around with it. Good job JVL!

First of all, I really appreciate the Building on a Budget column and the work Jacob Van Lunen puts into it every week.  Having returned to Magic in August 2010 after 6 years away, I don't have the library of cards many an established player has - nor do I wish to go buy a tonne of expensive rares to build the latest, greatest Standard net-decks.  Meanwhile, I stockpile current block cards from limited events in an attempt to pull level with the rest of the Standard field when the Zendikar block rotates out later this year.

I really like this latest deck Jacob has put together.  I have pitted this current build against friends playing Boros and Kuldotha Red and rarely lose.  Obviously I worry about other current top archetypes, but haven't had a chance to play against Caw-Blade, Valakut, or anything else yet.

With that said, I am trying to fit Red Sun's Zenith and Koth of the Hammer into the deck and I'm having a difficult time of it.  I'm thinking a 4-of Red Sun's to replace the Burst Lightning and maybe 2 of the Jace 1.0's for 2 Koth's.  I really like the potential value of the Red Sun's replayability and it's power late-game...

As for the sideboard, I'm leaning heavily on a playset of Tumble Magnets and maybe a couple of Frost Titans for those opponents (and there are a lot of them in my local meta) that can side in Kor Firewalker.  Not sure there's anything I can really do against mass removal other than trying to keep a counter spell available in game's 2 and/or 3.

Regardless of what changes I eventually make, I'm going to play this deck at my local shop's weekly Standard tourny this Saturday.  I'll post match-ups and results, with a brief comment hopefully, afterwards.

Cheers!

hi i played this deck, card for card, in a standard tourny couple hours ago. i went 3-1, playing against a K-red(2-0), a UB control (1-2), RDW goblin varient (2-0), and a really bad vampire deck (2-0). I found that that most players dont side out there removal, so the non-shourd creature are killed instantly, and the deck has trouble dealing with anything big that hits the field, like a grave titan that bet me. I am looking for suggestions on what would be better to put in, rares included.
hi i played this deck, card for card, in a standard tourny couple hours ago. i went 3-1, playing against a K-red(2-0), a UB control (1-2), RDW goblin varient (2-0), and a really bad vampire deck (2-0). I found that that most players dont side out there removal, so the non-shourd creature are killed instantly, and the deck has trouble dealing with anything big that hits the field, like a grave titan that bet me. I am looking for suggestions on what would be better to put in, rares included.

Ya i played this deck at my FnM nearly card for card, my only differance was i wasent able to get Baby jace's so i put in tresure hunt instead, also i found in just testing it i was getting land flooded, all the time, so i dropped the land count to 22, and put in a Sleep. though i never drew the sleep.  But i went 3-2 for the night,  i played lux cannon control 2-1, K/red 2-0, RUG 0-2, RDW, 2-0, and a very fast white knight deck 0-2.

The deck worked very well, i made a few sideboarding mistakes againts RUG, i boarded out too many burn spells for my kilnfiends. I really never found myself boarding in the spellblades that often, and i only played 1 the entire night, cuss i just never drew it. I find the deck is reallly good againts aggro, but againts a major control deck that uses fatties, like RUG and B/U control i think you either need to race them or have a bit better control cards.  I was thinking of maybe red sun zeniths in the sideboard. Not sure though.
Hey ya I had the same problem against fatties, I'm going to try some mind controls, however I am dropping the spellblades and kiln, cause I only drew them a couple of times and they really didn't help me cause most people I played didn't remove all there removal.
People don't have enough SB slots to devote to just siding out all of their removal against decks that have little or no creatures. So you can't expect that strategy really to work. Kiln Fiend and Surrakar Spellblade then become really subpar. I'd much rather have an actual sideboard to work with. Mind Control might work as an answer to fatties, any other ideas? What ideas do you guys have to deal with Kor Firewalker permanently in this deck? While still keeping the Rareless theme in tact?

The only things I need for this deck to go 4-0 at FNM is:

Permanent Solution to Kor Firewalker
Solutions to Fatties (Titans) once they've resolved

Thoughts?
On the topic of Treasure Mage: Hello planeswalkers. Look at your hand, now back to me, now back to your hand, now back to me. Sadly, your hand doesn't have a big game-winning bomb in it, but if you searched through your library for an artifact with converted mana cost of 6 or greater, you could get one. Look down, now back up, shuffle your library. Where are you? You're in a Magic game, and you're losing. What's that in your hand? It's a Wurmcoil Engine. Look again, the Wurmcoil Engine is now a ticket to Nagoya. Anything is possible when you cast Treasure Mage. I'm on a dragon. Currently Playing: U/R Burning Vengeance Control 10-2 http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-burning-vengeance-2/





























2Evolving Wilds
2Terramorphic Expanse
8Mountains
10Islands









4Neurok Commando













































3Arc Trail
4Jace Beleren
2Deprive
3Forked Bolt
4Staggershock
4Lightning Bolt
4Mana Leak
2Mind Control
4Preordain
4Burst Lightning





























1Arc Trail
1Forked Bolt
4Perilous Myr
3Narcolepsy
4Flashfreeze
2Mind Control


lands                                            creatures                             other spells                  sideboard



this is what i can up with, i use mind controls to take care of fatties, and the myr to handle firewalkers
How well have those Perilous Myrs worked for you? I know about them, I just don't know how I feel about having to use a burn spell to be able to kill the Myr and kill the Firewalker whenever I want. That equals card disadvantage. But it might be a necessary evil. Does anyone have a better idea than the Myr? If not, that's what I'll be using.

I am going to say that Mind Control fits this deck better than Volition Reins.
On the topic of Treasure Mage: Hello planeswalkers. Look at your hand, now back to me, now back to your hand, now back to me. Sadly, your hand doesn't have a big game-winning bomb in it, but if you searched through your library for an artifact with converted mana cost of 6 or greater, you could get one. Look down, now back up, shuffle your library. Where are you? You're in a Magic game, and you're losing. What's that in your hand? It's a Wurmcoil Engine. Look again, the Wurmcoil Engine is now a ticket to Nagoya. Anything is possible when you cast Treasure Mage. I'm on a dragon. Currently Playing: U/R Burning Vengeance Control 10-2 http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-burning-vengeance-2/
i have not needed them yet, so we will see however.
If you haven't seen them yet, I wonder if I should even worry about them. Unless in my meta, everyone who is anyone is playing WW or Knights or Quest. I don't know. I have my sideboard pretty well mocked up for a test run and I don't really have any room for the Perilous Myrs. And if you think about it, Mind Control answers both problems as it steals Firewalkers and Titans (Fatties). That's why I think I am going to go test it the way it is. Thanks though. Keep me posted on how they test out.
On the topic of Treasure Mage: Hello planeswalkers. Look at your hand, now back to me, now back to your hand, now back to me. Sadly, your hand doesn't have a big game-winning bomb in it, but if you searched through your library for an artifact with converted mana cost of 6 or greater, you could get one. Look down, now back up, shuffle your library. Where are you? You're in a Magic game, and you're losing. What's that in your hand? It's a Wurmcoil Engine. Look again, the Wurmcoil Engine is now a ticket to Nagoya. Anything is possible when you cast Treasure Mage. I'm on a dragon. Currently Playing: U/R Burning Vengeance Control 10-2 http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-burning-vengeance-2/
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