03/15/2011 SF: "In Multiplayer, Everyone Can Hear Your Play"

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This thread is for discussion of this week's Serious Fun, which goes live Tuesday morning on magicthegathering.com.
Is there any card more loud than warp world?  It's just so ridiculous, and caused MODO crashes multiple times.
Petr's Lhurgoyf deck needs more Revenant
My New Phyrexia Writing Credits My M12 Writing Credits
As far as the benefit of the rest of Magic is concerned, gold cards in Legends were executed perfectly. They got all the excitement a designer could hope out of a splashy new mechanic without using up any of the valuable design space. Truly amazing. --Aaron Forsythe's Random Card Comment on Kei Takahashi
In my old playgroup I successfully made Norin the Wary loud. <em>Very</em> loud. Classical conditioning is a wonderful thing.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed

Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Absolutely anything with a combined power and toughness 10+ that doesn't have shroud, indestructibility or a drawback to piffing it, basically.
Things fitting that description routinely do not last in my playgroup. See that massive Primalcrux? Gone. That brokenly recursive Reya Dawnbringer? History.

Of course, anything that does fit the above bill? Gold. Not only is it loud, but it's also hanging around!

The loudest thing I've ever played was probably a Phyrexian Dreadnought, followed immediately by a Cataclysm. This was in a seven player game, and it proceeded to take out five of my six opponents, only to be stopped by the last guy's sole creature - a Thicket Basilisk. I ended up losing, and learnt the best lesson ever about the value of good defensive creatures!
~ Guides I Have Been Silly Enough To Write ~
Budget Duals and Fetches in Multiplayer
CadaverousBl00m's Guide To Multiplayer Artifice
Multiplayer Tribal Format

~ Latest Multiplayer Ramblings: Appearing on my blog when I feel like it ~
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Rise of the Eldrazi Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Worldwake Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Zendikar Post-Rotation
Previous Multiplayer Concoctions
Elemental, My Dear Watson (Rainbow Elementals)
Watch The Little Birdies! (Bird Tribal with Proliferate)
Kavu Kavu Kavu Banana (Kavu Predator aggro)
Faerie Bleeder (The "Death By A Thousand Cuts" Faerie deck)
Braaiiins! (Mono-black Zombie control)
Verhexterring (Jinxed Ring / Grave Pact)
Flourishing Blowflies ( -1/-1 Counters)
Luminarch Ascension
only for the brave

My experiences have mostly been negative.  I have trouble remembering all the details.  I vaguely remember one guy who seemed to be absolutely terrified of my Seal of Fires and Pyrite Spellbombs.  I've had other guys who blatently ignore obvious combo pieces like Geth's Grimoire and Megrim, even in the same deck.  Most of these experiences come down to "sometimes people suck at Magic".

I've equally been unhappy with how easily some people are directed by the first person to holler "HE'S A THREAT!" and point a finger, as if your opponent's have your best interests at heart.

Your list of "scary cards" looks pretty legit to me.  Establishing a Forbid lock isn't as hard as it at first glance appears, and Isochron Scepter is pretty nuts (my ex-gf had a deck that abused the heck out of it, pairing it with Lightning Helix for many games that were foregone conclusions on the second turn).  The only thing that might be missing from it is board-dominating equipment (e.g. Umezawa's Jitte).

I find people over react to easily answered large creatures, but fail to appreciate how nasty a powerful enchantment like Pestilence can be.  That more than anything else has been the source of much of my frustration.

"So I cast Right of Replication on my Mulldrifter."

Fortunately, drawing 10 cards provides lots of protection.  Evoke Mulldrifter if you don't want to be an immediate target.

Edit: Island
The end is always nigh.
Winter Orb was the one that had the most noise at my old game table back when my friends played magic before it became all competitive. It just brought the game to a crawl for just about everybody. Everyone hated that card.

I also think Howling Mine and Mana Flare tended to generate Positive noise. Not many people targeted them, but while they were on the table, aggro would drift off to different targets for no particular reason. There are cards that just say "Let me Live Another Turn, and I'll reward you."

I'm not sure has the most noise in the current set. I'm sure there are some besides the planeswalkers, and I think cards like Contagion Engine and Massacre Worm tend to get everyone's attention due to how board changing they are. There doesn't seem to be any real Positive Noise generation in the set, though, which is a shame.
Thanks to the Masters Edition sets, there's now hundreds of Online players who don't understand how they can play Black Vise and The Rack in their frist three turns and lose every time.
Oh hey that's my Lhurgoyf deck! Pretty stoked the whole list got posted- I wasn't expecting that. Glad you liked it Adam ;)

Petr's Lhurgoyf deck needs more Revenant

I did actually toy around with a mono-black version running Revenants, but I love the original Lhurgoyf first and foremost so it had to have green. That also allowed ramp and enchantment/artifact destruction too.

Only after I bought and built the deck did I realize what a beast Avatar of Woe is! Trying to work out a place to fit it now!

The mono-black I tinkered with originally was something like the following:

4x Abyssal Gatekeeper
4x Fleshbag Marauder
4x Shriekmaw
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Moriok Replica

4x Mortivore
4x Revenant
4x Bonehoard
4x Mortician Beetle or Dross Harvester
(but should probably be 4x Avatar of Woe)

24x Swamp
At most multiplayer games my decks seem to be the ones that are "Loudest". I play crazy things that no one else would even think of playing. For instance, it was the late stages of one game and I was playing a pretty silly deck that didn't seem to do much. I had a couple of big fish with island home on them but no one else was playing islands so no one was really threatened. My turn comes around and I lay down a Magus of the Moon. By itself pretty annoying but no one could see why it was in my deck... until I played Mind Bend on it. Suddenly the magus had installed some neon lights on to his back. It only lasted one turn before succombing to a Shriekmaw but its call must have been too loud because I was dead 2 turns later from fear that I might do something else uncouth. This is a frequent occurence at my tables but I don't mind too much. The look on everyones faces when I do that extremely silly thing is the main reason multiplayer is so fun for me.

The newest card that I've found that has a giant speaker system integrated into it during multiplayer has got to be Knowledge Pool. My group must have never watched educational television because they just hate to share. :P
To me, the loudest cards are cards that are not necessarily the most powerful, but the least fun.

I would also beat up the Lighthouse Chronologist because I would probably find the amount of time his turns would take to be unfun.

Sundering Titan has little raison d'être for fun. There are very few situations where destroying basic lands is needed to maintain fun, as opposed to stifle it.

Darksteel Forge is a really loud card, as it's one of very few that also protects itself.

At the receiving end, I myself usually get more noise than deserved with my Sen Triplets EDH deck, which isn't a control deck at all but bears more resemblance to a group hug deck, with cards like Wheel and Deal and Pulsemage Advocate to keep my opponents' hands stocked enough for the both of us.                          
Lighthouse Chronologist was the absolutely most loud card I have ever faced off against.  I was one of 10 players in an EDH round and someone played that card.  It was really annoying having that opponent take his extra turns.  It was a little easier though since the player didn't get to take turns after the turn reached beyond his range of influence, otherwise this guy would have taken many turns.

As far as myself, the loudest card I played isn't so much a card as a deck.  I played slivers.  Those things are insainly loud in a multiplayer game. 
The loudest card I play is Luminarch Ascension in my Angel deck. I wouldn't have a problem at all if anyone Naturalized it, it is the right play to make, and I don't run Sterling Grove, Privileged Position, or Greater Auramancy, or any counterspells, so it certainly isn't impossible to take care of. While I wouldn't mind players simply removing it, the most common response is to call my deck unfair and get upset if I win. Since it's not a combo that can't be dealt with, I really would wish they would just accept that I built a good deck and beat them. Especially since I've only won about half of our games anyway.
The player can be an amplifier. I'm only going out of my way to say this because in my playgroups they HATE when I use Blue. They put whatever on an Isochron Scepter, put a Whispersilk Cloak on whatever and no one really bats an eye. But it just got to the point where when I dropping an island was painting a bullseye on myself.

Between them naturally winning games and the games I purposely passed on countering a move a player was real excited to make lead to alot of losses for me so it wasn't "winning all the time" in my opinion as opposed to things I did just made things a headache for others. This of course is bit of a downer for me cuz it's not like I'd be playing Stasis, but just did simple things like Enchantment Alteration so players would end up Arresting their own creatures, Ray of Commanding their biggest attacker to block their 2nd biggest attacker, deflecting their Fireballs right back at them, etc. While I had no more victories than anyone else, this was just a pain for everyone to deal with so they just focused on me if I dropped an Island.
The main format I play online is Commander, and sometimes you get a loud blast of aggro from the opening bell, when laying out your commander. Commanders I've found that seem to draw much attention:

Jhoira of the Ghitu
Nicol Bolas
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Kaervek the Merciless

Then there's a second tier that tends to draw aggro only if none of the above are present, or in conditional circumstances (like Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund if one or more opponents are playing Dragon commanders):

Kresh the Bloodbraided
Glissa, the Traitor
Teneb, the Harvester
Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Reaper King
Sliver Overlord/Sliver Queen

There are probably more I'm leaving out.





"Nothing in my view is more reprehensible than those habits of mind in the intellectual that induce avoidance, that characteristic turning away from a difficult and principled position, which you know to be the right one, but which you decide not to take. You do not want to appear too political; you are afraid of seeming controversial; you want to keep a reputation for being balanced, objective, moderate; your hope is to be asked back, to consult, to be on a board or prestigious committee, and so to remain within the responsible mainstream...."  -Edward Said

I have a Rosheen Meanderer deck for EDH (Commander) that is a "loud" deck.  It isn't powerful by any stretch, and it doesn't do the card-advantage game very well.  It simply plays a single threat at a time, and for whatever reason it is a very "loud" deck.

a 20/20 Apocolypse Hydra, for example.  Like I said, not hugely powerful, easy to answer, but it seems that everyone at the table sends removal spells my way in a hurry. 

But that is kind of the point of the deck, to shake things up, to have some fun, to be "big, Timmy, smashy, smashy" guy for a day.
Lighthouse Chronologist rightfully drew a lot of aggro. It wasn't because it was going to win the game, but because of the huge 'fun prevention' factor. Cards that delay the game or prevent people from playing the game or from playing their deck to an onerous degree generate huge fun prevention aggro, and usually from the group as a whole. People stop what they're doing to either remove the card, or remove the player so that the game can then proceed as normal.

Kensan_Oni makes a great point about cards that are 'aggro positive' or at least, 'aggro neutral'. Using Jace's +2 everyone draws or *gasp* using his -1 to make someone ELSE draw will have him sticking around longer, and might knock you down the threat list.

And yes, in multiplayer, blue mana symbols are like tears- the more you play, the more you will shed This isn't your fault though, the problem is that as a whole, blue doesn't have many fun ways to win. Most of the things it does well aren't very fun either... and when I talk about fun here, i'm talking about being fun to lose to. There's a hierarchy of fun ways to lose in magic, and blue doesn't have any of the top spots.
Without a doubt, the "loudest" card in my playgroup is Lurking Predators. One person has a deck with four copies of that, several "creature with power five or greater" effects, and a whole bunch of fatties in general. That spell is probably just decently powered in a one-on-one game, but in multiplayer it is ridiculous. When he gets more than one copy out he will be the biggest target and still probably win unless they get disenchanted quickly.
Loudest card I can think of that I've played so far?  I can't decide between two:

Gravity Well

in my mono-G EDH deck (Azusa, Lost but Seeking is my General).

Damage based removal wha?
Flying over my head wha?
Yeah, that's what I thought.

My dad has a Sliver Overlord as his general, that's definitely louder than my Vigor.  I groan every time it fetches out Harmonic Sliver (I play lots of cool artifacts), and I live in fear of Amoeboid Changeling (I'm mono-G, I don't kill opposing creatures outside of combat very well...other than maybe flyers).


From Mark Rosewater's Tumblr: the0uroboros asked: How in the same set can we have a hexproof, unsacrificable(not a word) creature AND a land that makes it uncounterable. How does this lead to interactive play? I believe I’m able to play my creature and you have to deal with it is much more interactive than you counter my creature.


Post #777


MaRo: One of the classic R&D stories happened during a Scars of Mirrodin draft. Erik Lauer was sitting to my right (meaning that he passed to me in the first and third packs). At the end of the draft, Erik was upset because I was in his colors (black-green). He said, "Didn't you see the signals? I went into black-green in pack one." I replied, "Didn't you see my signals? I started drafting infect six drafts ago."


MaRo: I redesigned him while the effect was on the stack.

In the few times I've played chaos EDH, two cards come to mind as the loudest so far.
Debtors' Knell irritates me after I've killed some of my opponents bruisers by the time he plays it.  Also Extraplanar Lens worries me.  Maybe I should play a general with green in it, but I'm having too much fun with Oona.  The loudest ones I play (sometimes) are Timesifter and Fatespinner.  Good fun without being too threatening.

Timesifter! So awesome and so much fun!! The card for me that always brought the most attention is Phage. Every time I play her, it's "OH SHEET KILL HEEM QUICK"
Three cards top my list for loudest:

Seedborn Muse
Darksteel Forge
Arcum Dagsson

The first two are loud enough to affect my deck building choices (Return to Dust is great by the way).  The latter just says "target me first" in a Commander game, because it should only take about two activations before he achieves complete lockdown, and everything after that is just gravy.
These are generally my reactions to playing bombs.
Yeah, I know you're gonna kill it. Go ahead and kill it. If you don't, it will kill you.

I like playing EDH with friends. Unfortunately, I'm too much of a slave to theme and so my decks generally lack any kind of removal (aka, tech). So when my friend whips out his Vig deck, we all cry and rush him as fast as we can. Pretty much every card in there shouts loudly and carries a big stick.
I'm really enjoying seeing all the different ideas of, for, and around the cards you think are loud. It's great! And I'm also not surrprised to see a few of my favorite cards popping up on the radar for you guys. (Ahem, Seedborn Muse, cough, cough.)

Keep them coming! Thanks! 
Adam Styborski Writer for Serious Fun Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/the_stybs
Heck, just showing my general tends to be loud. Soon as Niv-Mizzet mana is available, lots of attention shifts to me. Yes, I play Curiosity, and Ophidian Eye, and Mind Over Matter. I consider them fair because a game has to end eventually, and the combo is disruptable via removal/counter/running me out of cards before I can kill a table.

I even read where an unused speach from a panel at Pax East specifically listed this as unfun.

I would much rather storm out a few dragons, and I do sometimes, but if I can combo off I will. I try to limit my "loud-factor" by playing very little to no land destruction, only enough counterspells to be comfortable, and a slightly awkward mana base to force a few extra turns before I get the UURR I want. Anyhow, that's my loud.
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I've been working on a mostly hypothetical EDH deck that is potentially ridiculously loud. But so fun and bizarre that it might not draw too much ire.
A 21/21 Maga gets some attention in EDH. Wink

Now where is my Xathrid Demon? Laughing
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