How many arrows you allow your character to load?

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How many arrows you allow your character to load?

First time in my life i heard complaint, because i allow players to carry only 30 arrows, or 60 if not using backpack.
I only measure encumbrance, not how much space all those arrows (or other loot) would use up.
4e is designed by default not to impose significant limitations on arrow usage.  This is one more example of this edition's design philosophy that the crunch should balance, and the fluff will have to fit into it.

You are, of course, free to change that, but if you had a player in your group build a character who would use large amounts of ammunition, like an archer ranger, expecting the PHB rules on ammunition (that it's essentially infinite for bookkeeping purposes) to be followed and you sprung something different on him once the campaign was starting, your player has a right to be upset.  

Even at level 1, every archer ranger should be firing two arrows per round. Averaging 5 rounds per combat and 4 encounters a day, he'll need 40 arrows just to make it through an *average* adventuring day, to say nothing of a campaign that involves extended rests outside of settled areas where one might purchase arrows.  This problem will be exacerbated as your party levels up, because rangers do their job by firing more and more arrows as they level.

I certainly understand the realism concern with a PC wandering the desert for a week at a time without ever running out of ammunition, but if you'd like to run your game world realistically in this fashion, you definitely need to warn your players beforehand of such a significant house rule.  In their place, I wouldn't even consider building a character that relied on non-thrown ranged weapons if my DM imposed such a serious limitation on my ability to reliably attack.  If you don't want any archers in your group, this is a great way to enforce that.  The limitation is more appropriate in a Dark Sun or similarly-styled survival fantasy campaign, especially if risk of weapon breakage imposes a vaguely similar constraint on melee weapons (although at that point, you're just favoring implement users).  If you do limit arrows carried, you should probably allow your characters to craft arrows during rest time in areas where wood is available, and I'd recommend implementing the 3e rules on arrow recovery, where 50% of your missed shots don't destroy the arrow, and it can be recovered later.

TL;DR: limiting arrow carrying breaks the balance and is therefore distinctly out of the spirit of 4th edition, and it creates a huge nerf to ranged classes, especially ranged multiattackers.  If you do it anyway, it's a big enough deal to warrant discussion before the start of the campaign, and it will make most players avoid ammo-consuming weapons in favor of melee, thrown, or implement attacks.

But if you can deal with the existence of healing surges, is a gaping, diablo-style arrow quiver really out of the question? 
If you want to get very technical, as someone who spent several summers instructing archery, I would wager I could carry 60+ arrows in quivers alone.

Modern quivers are actually far more limited in space due to the variety of arrow heads, but if all you're using are round tipped then you need far less space and can really pack  them in. I would wager one large back quiver could hold 40ish arrows, while to rear slung hip quivers could take 10-15 a piece and it's easy enough to fit a bow to carry another 5-8.

You could also rig a framed backpack to allow for the carrying of significantly more.

But hey, if you try and 'real world' all the aspects in D&D, you're going to spend a lot of time talking and not actually playing. It's your call.
I houserule that all magic bows, crossbows, and slings create their own nonmagical ammunition, thusly removing the need to count them after, oh, the second game or so.
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On a regular adventuring backpack, you could easily have one quiver of 30 arrows strapped to each side of your pack, one more to the bottom, one in the pack itself, and then have one strapped to one hip... All without breaking any sense of immersion in the game by carrying more stuff than you might "realistically" be able to carry and still move around well in a fight.

That's 150 arrows...

Plus, the first magic item any adventurer who uses a bow in a campaign that restricts the number of arrows they could "realistically" carry is going to purchase will be a bag of holding or some other magic container that will make any sort of "realism" restrictions on how many arrows they can carry completely irrelevant.





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a quiver that's the diameter of a large coffee can could easily hold around 50 arrows and weigh less than a backpack.

i'd rule that an adventurer could feasably carry around 100 longbow arrows and 150 shortbow arrows between a back-slung quiver and a backpack.
this just comes across as odd. if it came out of the blue. i can see why the complaint.
a quiver on the back or a back pack? whats to stop the player to have the back quiver tied to the side of the back pack? or the player getting over players in the group to have a quiver.

i find it an argement that falls down. when the player ask's how many arrows a back pack can hold.

plus there the chance of it slowly down the game when the player decides to go round and collect all and every last arrow.

also i belive if your asking for a more realistc point of few. im not sure but mongoling quivers use to be able to hold 60-80 arrows.

plus there the chance of it slowly down the game when the player decides to go round and collect all and every last arrow.



Not an issue, as ammunition is not recoverable after use.
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I want to set ammunition as something to worry a bit, but not a big issue. I read many ideas to fix it.

i'll assume that a quiver can hold 80 arrows, and that someone who spend several years instructing archery is able to make arrows himself, at least if have acess to trees or logs, in a extended rest. Arrows enough to replenish a quiver.

It makes ammunition pretty much infinite, but not so much in a hostil environment. 
For collecting spent arrows you don't have to RP going around and pulling out every one. It's one of those implicit things like sharpening your edged weapons during a break. The only time it would even be mentioned is if none of the arrows are recoverable like if your foe is on the other side of an impassable ravine or something.
For collecting spent arrows you don't have to RP going around and pulling out every one. It's one of those implicit things like sharpening your edged weapons during a break. The only time it would even be mentioned is if none of the arrows are recoverable like if your foe is on the other side of an impassable ravine or something.



By RAW, ammunition is automatically unrecoverable.
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It makes ammunition pretty much infinite, but not so much in a hostil environment. 



Unless they have 4,200 gold and Enchant Magic Item :3.

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You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster... Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil. And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
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I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic here. ...
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we can only hope it gets the jace treatment...it could have at least been legendary
So that even the decks that don't run it run it to deal with it? Isn't that like the definition of format warping?
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Unless they have 4,200 gold and Enchant Magic Item :3.



1,000gp. You don't need the Quiver when you can just get a Bag of Holding.


Also, the number of arrows I allow my players to carry around is the number they'll need to fire + 1. 
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I think OP's 80 arrow/free replentishment during extended rest if wood is available is a reasonable way to remind your players that they aren't infinite without creating too many restrictions.  Just be sure to allow them to stock up on multiple quivers if they're going somewhere where that won't be possible, remembering one of the above posters' logical way to carry 5 quivers, and the fact that party members can stash a few if you ask nicely.  Ideally, your players will never run out, but they might have to think about it a little, which could improve realism somewhat if that's your goal.
If you're going to do an 80 arrow limit, I would allow other pcs to carry quivers for your bow-user in the event you're somewhere where the availability of wood may be limited.
I don't do arrow tracking.  It takes away more than it adds, for my money.  It's never a minor issue - it's a nonissue until the last arrow leaves the quiver, and then it escalates to a matter of life and death.  There's no in-between spot where it's important, but not critical.  It's always either pointless or game-breaking.

It's also unfair, when you get right down to it.  You don't track fatigue, which is what limits melee fighters in practice.  We stopped tracking spells when we chucked out Vancian spellcasting.  Weapon breakage isn't covered, and isn't fair in itself.  This game makes a few prefunctory swipes at simulationism, but at its heart it's about heroic storytelling.  The hero has as many shots as he needs to Get the Job Done, just like the guy in eighty pounds of ironmongery swinging his ten pound cleaver holds the line until the last foe falls, and then (and only then) has to catch his breath.

If you don't let it become a life-or-death concern, one that turns one person in the group into dead weight, then it's just a bunch of bookkeeping that never amounts to anything.  Yeah, he'd be a dead man if he never restocked his arrows.  He'd also be a dead man if he never stopped to excrete waste, but I'm not running the session into the privvy to make sure the players are remembering every detail of keeping an imaginary person alive.
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I tend to get annoyed when people try to carry more than 20 (that is what fit in 3e quivers).  Usually people are good at saying I look for my arrows after a fight (you know while the rogue is hiding things he took off the corpses).  Second we often face people who have a quiver too.  So in the end it rarely mattered.  I would rather have a small quiver and it never come up than think some can actually meaningfull carry all their gear and 150 plus arrows. 
Usually people are good at saying I look for my arrows after a fight



Except, as I say for like the fourth time this thread, you can't recover ammunition after a fight.


 
I would rather have a small quiver and it never come up than think some can actually meaningfull carry all their gear and 150 plus arrows. 



Except that it's already been demonstrated that doing so is rather easy.
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I don't do arrow tracking.  It takes away more than it adds, for my money.  It's never a minor issue - it's a nonissue until the last arrow leaves the quiver, and then it escalates to a matter of life and death.  There's no in-between spot where it's important, but not critical.  It's always either pointless or game-breaking.

It's also unfair, when you get right down to it.  You don't track fatigue, which is what limits melee fighters in practice.  We stopped tracking spells when we chucked out Vancian spellcasting.  Weapon breakage isn't covered, and isn't fair in itself.  This game makes a few prefunctory swipes at simulationism, but at its heart it's about heroic storytelling.  The hero has as many shots as he needs to Get the Job Done, just like the guy in eighty pounds of ironmongery swinging his ten pound cleaver holds the line until the last foe falls, and then (and only then) has to catch his breath.

If you don't let it become a life-or-death concern, one that turns one person in the group into dead weight, then it's just a bunch of bookkeeping that never amounts to anything.  Yeah, he'd be a dead man if he never restocked his arrows.  He'd also be a dead man if he never stopped to excrete waste, but I'm not running the session into the privvy to make sure the players are remembering every detail of keeping an imaginary person alive.



Thank you, Kaganfindel.  That was what I was going for, but you said it much better. That brand of "immersive gameplay" is really, really unpleasant from a storytelling point of view, which is the best reason to leave it out of the story you choose to tell at the table.

Anyone strongly in favor of arrow tracking want to discuss Kagan's point? 
According to the online Compendium, arrows come in groups of 30 - and already in a quiver.

So obviously one quiver can hold at least 30 arrows.

(Crossbow bolts, by the way, come in groups of 20 and also in a quiver.)

That quiver and arrows, together, weigh 3 pounds and cost 1 GP.

For simultaneous carry... I've done a bit of archery, not a lot, but assuming that a Ranger averages 3 arrows per round for an average of 10 rounds per combat, I see no problem with assuming he can carry enough arrows for at least 6 combat encounters (and probably 10) while needing only couple minor actions during each rest to get a full quiver into position.

For longer trips, disassembled arrows (a stack of shafts, a box of heads, a box of feathers) pack much more closely than assembled arrows do, and you don't need to be able to get one out easily. Figure that a quiver holds 90 prepared shafts, and the prepared heads and fletchings for two quivers are the equivalent of a ritual book - that sounds about right. If there is a pack animal, or a wagon, or a ship, there is REALLY not a problem.

Cost? 10 GP maximum to get through level 1, during which time the character's share of the party's not-a-usable-magic-item treasure is 145 GP. Then another 10 GP maximum for level 2, while the character gets 220 GP. At level 3, another 10 GP maximum outlay for arrows, while the character gets 271 GP. At level 4... you see where this is going.

The DM has to really work to create a situation where tracking ammunition makes sense.

(This is why the Endless Quiver is so absurd. Ten hard encounters per level for 30 levels is 300 quivers = 300 GP, and probably less than that. The Endless Quiver shouldn't be seen before level 5, so 40 of those 300 are already spent, making the EQ worth a maximum of 260. Want to buy one? If available, the price is 4,200. Frankly, based on its benefit to the players, it should be downgraded to level 2 and given an additional minor property.)
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Can't recover arrows??  We are actually talking about realism and it is impossible to recover a single arrow.  Do they dissappear into the same worm hole as left socks in the wash.


Can't recover arrows??  We are actually talking about realism and it is impossible to recover a single arrow.  Do the dissappear into the same worm hole as left socks in the wash.




Arrows are fragile.  They break.  Them's the rules; if you want to house rule, that's fine, but as written, ammunition is not recoverable, period, at all.
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Can't recover arrows??  We are actually talking about realism and it is impossible to recover a single arrow.  Do they dissappear into the same worm hole as left socks in the wash.





wooden arrows shot from even a moderatly powered bow usually break if they hit anything other than a soft target. and an arrow shot into an emeny was probably broken off during battle anyway.
In my game, we are in the middle of an extended adventure away from civilization.  My character had 120 arrows when we began the adventure and is now down to about 50.  To conserve ammo, she has resorted to throwing a +1 dagger at nearby enemies when high damage is not critical.  If we ever encounter an archer enemy, she will definitely be killing and looting him as quickly as possible.
I personally find tracking ammunition to be a chore in a game that already has a tendency to get bogged down in numbers, both as a player and as a DM. I just assume my character/players have enough ammunition to get the job done, and they restock when they get supplies the next time they visit a town. If they're out in the wilderness for long periods of time . . . well surely they recover some of their arrows, take arrows off of dead enemies, or scrounge them up in ruins and the like.

Having said that, there are plenty of people who find it more enjoyable to try to simulate reality more closely. If that's your bag, go for it, but if you're a DM, make sure to tell your players before hand.

TL;DR: What people above said, but slightly less scorn for those who prefer to keep track of arrows.
In my game, we are in the middle of an extended adventure away from civilization.  My character had 120 arrows when we began the adventure and is now down to about 50.  To conserve ammo, she has resorted to throwing a +1 dagger at nearby enemies when high damage is not critical.  If we ever encounter an archer enemy, she will definitely be killing and looting him as quickly as possible.




In my mind, this is just a tax on the character. Your pals are going to be plowing away with swords and spells while you're forced to count each and every arrow. It may be realistic, but since it isn't applied across the board, you are unneccesarily hindering yourself.
In my game, we are in the middle of an extended adventure away from civilization.  My character had 120 arrows when we began the adventure and is now down to about 50.  To conserve ammo, she has resorted to throwing a +1 dagger at nearby enemies when high damage is not critical.  If we ever encounter an archer enemy, she will definitely be killing and looting him as quickly as possible.




In my mind, this is just a tax on the character. Your pals are going to be plowing away with swords and spells while you're forced to count each and every arrow. It may be realistic, but since it isn't applied across the board, you are unneccesarily hindering yourself.



This.  And as I quoted the lovely point above, we don't track other meaningful realistic limitations on characters continually attacking forever, like that fact that swinging a mordenkrad once or twice every six seconds indefinitely while wearing heavy armor is tiring enough to not be physically viable beyond a certain number of rounds.  That one's a little easier to handwave than the idea of running out of arrows because it's not numerically visible when you picture the action in your mind, but it's no less realistic to skip than skipping arrow tracking is.  And if you start working that way, all you're really doing is nerfing the martial power source (mostly, I guess crossbow artificers are going to have similar problems and need to fall back on implement powers or a melee weapon eventually, as will seekers) because you're taking its nonmagical status literally in a game where even "non-magical" abilities commonly transcend the laws of physics by wide margins, but primal, divine, arcane and psionic abilities get a pass because they're "magic" and we expect that.

Again, if you really think tracking individual arrows is going to make the game more fun for both the DM and the players, it's certainly not wrong in any essential sense to do that.  It just seems like sort of an arbitrary time to start caring about realism in a combat system that's less based on realism than any previous edition. 

Can't recover arrows??  We are actually talking about realism and it is impossible to recover a single arrow.  Do they dissappear into the same worm hole as left socks in the wash.





wooden arrows shot from even a moderatly powered bow usually break if they hit anything other than a soft target. and an arrow shot into an emeny was probably broken off during battle anyway.



I have taken several archery courses and have been bow hunting with my neighbor. He uses a composite bow with wooden arrows and they seldom break, even when they strike a bone in the target, the target goes running off into the woods, falls and rolls down a hill... They still do not brake very often and we recover 90%+ of our arrows intact.

I like the idea of imposing limitations like this, it makes for a sort of "hardcore" style of gameplay. However, you would really need to impose restrictions to everyone, Dulling/breaking of melee weapons, damage to armor/shields, keeping players fed and hydrated. I think it would be neat, but you would have to go all out and cover everything that you would experience if you yourself were in the situation. You could impose a small fatigue penalty as melee characters swing their weapons and an exhaustion penalty as spellcasters use their implements. It all makes sense, but it is a ton of information to keep track of.
an animal isn't some goblin in armor swinging a sword around. and an arrow shot from an 80 pound longbow would be absolutely destroyed if it if a stone wall or any other similarly hard surface.

i've been doing traditional archery for the last 6 years man, i know the limitations of medieval arrows. i dont really agree that 100% of arrows are irrecoverable but i also understand the idea that some arrows would be destroyed. i personally use a system in my games to randomly determine how many of the arrows shot in a round are recoverable, with the odds being 33/66 in favor of recovery.

I have taken several archery courses and have been bow hunting with my neighbor.



Unless you're somehow using D&D quality weaponry (and attacking orcs), that's pretty irrelevant.
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I'm of the group that doesn't count arrows/bolts.  Unless you are in a situation where resources are scarce then I don't worry about it.

 The endless quiver is just a waste of money.  As it has been pointed out you could just buy a bag of holding and a bunch of arrows.  With a bag of holding you could stick about 1980 arrows into it and that would cost you about about 1066 for the bag and arrows.  If you spend the exact amount for the bag of holding plus the arrows that it would cost you to get the endliess quiver you end up with the bag and 96,000 arrows.  

The only real difference between the two would be you'd need to spend a minor action every 30 arrows to pull out another quiver full of arrows.  Also take into account that you can store other things in the bag.  

Basically I just don't see a point in penalizing someone who chooses to play a ranged weapon character.  All it ends up being is a gold tax (which ends up meaning nothing) and a bit of a gameplay annoyance that is easily remedied.   

 The endless quiver is just a waste of money.  



I wouldn't so much say that, though I will agree that it's horrifically overpriced.  It should be a level 1 or 2 item, because as you say, it is much less useful overall than a Bag of Holding.
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The last time we reached high heroic tier, we did get an endless quiver.  We gave it to our archer ranger and agreed NOT to count it as her share of the loot, for reasons already discussed here. 


Our party is currently in a vault that is full of treasures and traps but (as far as we know) no monsters -- just a time limit to gather up what we can.  Since we are still well away from civilization, my character did tell the rest of the party not to bother with any coins of lesser value than platinum, but do pick up every arrow and crossbow bolt you can.  When one of the other party members dropped a bunch of arrows and bolts, my character ran over to retrieve them.


Still, I would prefer not to have to keep track of these things -- and in fact it was not a major issue until we found ourselves away from civilization for a longer time than I was expecting.  Maybe if it was possible to select a crafting ability that let you add a certain number of arrows to your quiver each day? 


 

Maybe if it was possible to select a crafting ability that let you add a certain number of arrows to your quiver each day? 

 




That would just be bringing back the useless Craft, Perform, and Profession skills; they were pitched for a reason.  Or, to use the modern board parlance, it'd be a 'skill training tax' for archery characters.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Maybe if it was possible to select a crafting ability that let you add a certain number of arrows to your quiver each day? 

 




That would just be bringing back the useless Craft, Perform, and Profession skills; they were pitched for a reason.  Or, to use the modern board parlance, it'd be a 'skill training tax' for archery characters.




And in some cases replaced with.... Rituals!

Crafting ammo sounds like the perfect candidate for a Ritual (what are the Martial ones called? exploits or somesuch? Martial Practices)
"At a certain point, one simply has to accept that some folks will see what they want to see..." Dragon 387
Maybe if it was possible to select a crafting ability that let you add a certain number of arrows to your quiver each day? 

 




That would just be bringing back the useless Craft, Perform, and Profession skills; they were pitched for a reason.  Or, to use the modern board parlance, it'd be a 'skill training tax' for archery characters.




And in some cases replaced with.... Rituals!

Crafting ammo sounds like the perfect candidate for a Ritual (what are the Martial ones called? exploits or somesuch?) 



Martial Practices.  And, of course, it's easy to do ... for a cost of 1gp, you can create 30 arrows, 20 crossbow bolts, or 20 sling bullets during a rest.  Make it a Practice that everybody who can use a bow, crossbow, or sling knows as a class feature, and you're good to go.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Heaven forbid someone would take Sure Shot to conserve their ammunition....

When 4th Edition was first coming out, there were some pregenerated characters published. One used a bow and in its equipment was "a quiver full of arrows." When I saw that I was excited that maybe D&D was getting completely away from tracking ammo. This excitement lasted until the game actually came out, though it was slightly replaced by the excitement that magical thrown weapons automatically return.

Oddly, I've never played for long enough in a game with an archer for this to become an issue, so I can't say how I'd actually handle it. Rangers and their players get pretty dang arrogant, so I'd love to make them track ammo, but that's not actually fair or all that fun. I hadn't really thought of it before but it really does make sense for magical bows, etc., to create their own ammunition, just as magical thrown weapons always return. It reminds me of Hank the Ranger from the Dungeons & Dragon's cartoon. Even though the show was corny, I always thought that bow was awesome.

I suppose Sure Shot still has a use when one has a limited supply of magical ammunition....

[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy

Maybe if it was possible to select a crafting ability that let you add a certain number of arrows to your quiver each day? 

 




That would just be bringing back the useless Craft, Perform, and Profession skills; they were pitched for a reason.  Or, to use the modern board parlance, it'd be a 'skill training tax' for archery characters.




And in some cases replaced with.... Rituals!

Crafting ammo sounds like the perfect candidate for a Ritual (what are the Martial ones called? exploits or somesuch?) 



Martial Practices.  And, of course, it's easy to do ... for a cost of 1gp, you can create 30 arrows, 20 crossbow bolts, or 20 sling bullets during a rest.  Make it a Practice that everybody who can use a bow, crossbow, or sling knows as a class feature, and you're good to go.



I like this a lot for games where arrow tracking seems useful.  It expresses the logical "anyone who uses and relies on arrows this much and survived to level 2 knows how to make them" in a format that makes 4e design sense as well.  It could be learned for a nominal cost, and you're set on arrows in almost all cases.
(Waits for the 'I see what you did there' post ...)
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.