Colour Pie Discussion: Balance

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Is it possible for all the colours to coexist?
Should they even try?
Are all the colours created equal, or is one or more superior above all others?
Is perfect balance attainable, and if so, would we want it?

Discuss!
is the Individual, th desire to be MORE.

is the passion that sparks our life.

is the understanding of all life that lets us really care.

is the order and perfection for which we all strive.

is the knowledge that sparks our ingenuity.

Each color has a key in all of us. I am missing and , but my friends make up for it, and then some.
[/sblock] [sblock=signature] I am Red/Black
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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's
Is it possible for all the colours to coexist?



Sure almost every plane has all five colors coexisting.

Can they coexist peacfully? No, there will always be clashes between them. But they learn to live with each other, and perhaps even emathize with one another. 

Lorwyn was a good example of most colors living together peacefully (except for the elves).

Ravnica's another good example of all five colors living together in realitive peace.

Should they even try?



That all depends on your outlook i guess. 
 
Are all the colours created equal, or is one or more superior above all others?



Each color thinks its way of life is superior to the others. Each color has strength and weakensses, so no color is really better than another.

Is perfect balance attainable, and if so, would we want it?



Considering that everyone contains all five colors, no it's not possible to get a perfect balance of colors.

Would i want to see a world of perfect balance? Maybe, if it has a good storyline and a distinct style. I'd rather have something like Ravnica, though, were the set wasn't really about the colors and more about the guilds*. Or Lorwyn where it was about the tribes.

I tend to dislike stories where the emphasis is on the colors because i don't imagine people in the magic universe talking about what color something is to each other.


* Yes the guilds were composed to two colors, but the reason for this was the guildpact, which forced each guild into two colors (and probaly kept them there). So i don't see Ravnica as being color focused, but instead being guild focused (and it just so happens that the mechanical translation of the guilds was multicolor)
… and then, the squirrels came.
There needs to be a balance. Look at Grixis: a plane devoid of White or Green mana. Imagine living there.
There needs to be a balance. Look at Grixis: a plane devoid of White or Green mana. Imagine living there.



All the shards were bad in some way, though some were less obviously harmful.

Grixis is obviously the most deadly.

Jund is a close second - everything is always hunting everything else. Dangerous place to be.

Naya - There is no technology, and thus there isn't a whole lot of advancement.

Esper - Everything is ordered, and there is no freedom.

Bant is the one that is the least obvious, but it is similar to Esper. There seems to be such a strong caste system that there is no advancement within that system.

So really, I would agree that all colors are neccesary.
Micorku's World Bits - A Vorthos writing about various creative topics. Updates sporadically Iroas - The world needs heroes - will you answer the call? There is also an RPG that is in Pre-Alpha stage.
There needs to be a balance. Look at Grixis: a plane devoid of White or Green mana. Imagine living there.



All the shards were bad in some way, though some were less obviously harmful.

Grixis is obviously the most deadly.

Jund is a close second - everything is always hunting everything else. Dangerous place to be.

Naya - There is no technology, and thus there isn't a whole lot of advancement.

Esper - Everything is ordered, and there is no freedom.

Bant is the one that is the least obvious, but it is similar to Esper. There seems to be such a strong caste system that there is no advancement within that system.

So really, I would agree that all colors are neccesary.



Indeed. If I had to live on one of the shards, it would be Naya. The humans of the plane live lives of unadulterated pleasure and are generally laid back, while being in touch with nature and passion. Jund is a close second for me.
Indeed. If I had to live on one of the shards, it would be Naya. The humans of the plane live lives of unadulterated pleasure and are generally laid back, while being in touch with nature and passion. Jund is a close second for me.



I really can't imagine why anyone would choose Jund as a home. Death could come randomly at any second! If I had to choose, it would be Bant as my first choice, Naya as second. Bant has the least chance for a random violent death.

Also - laid back? I think we're looking at different shards, because the Naya I know has humans that goad behemoths into action(Bloodthorn Taunter), hunt behemoths by making them angry (Drumhunter) and are essentially European football hooligans (Matca Rioters). Honestly, they're very ancient Central and South American inspired which should raise some red flags.
Micorku's World Bits - A Vorthos writing about various creative topics. Updates sporadically Iroas - The world needs heroes - will you answer the call? There is also an RPG that is in Pre-Alpha stage.
I would live on Jund, just for the survival training. There and Zendikar. But Afterwards, I would not live on any of those shards. I would live in Sertaria! Specifically, Ameran! (I love Ameran!)
[/sblock] [sblock=signature] I am Red/Black
I am Red/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's
Is it possible for all the colours to coexist?

I'm sorry, but this just made me think of those "Coexist" bumper stickers, where the letters were all different religious symbols, so...

But about the balance thing: Each of the colors are defined by their enemies as much as they are by themselves. Being opposed to two other colors is part of each color's identity. They're SUPPOSED to be in conflict, and from the five way push-and-pull, a balance is usually achieved. The color wheel is a little like the yin and yang that way, but with five different swirly things instead of just two.

And as for Alara, I would definitely live on Bant if I could. I'd go Elspeth all over that place. Esper would be my second choice. Do you notice that we mostly seem to prefer the shards aligned with our own personal colors?
"The truth resists simplicity."
Some memorable quotes
57461258 wrote:
I know, as a good liberal scholar, that I'm supposed to respect every other belief and culture and what have you that comes along but... at the end of the day, when all is said and done, some things are just plain wrong.
92481331 wrote:
Venser "Ah, Hello Myr. This is the King. Long Time no see. We thought today would be a good day for rolling. The Myr Battlesphere. The Myr. Where the first rolls and the second follows. Roll, roll, roll. For that purpose we went to the bother, the bother of fixing up Mirrodin. The King of the Multiverse going to the bother just for rolling a Myr Battlephere, just for that, we went to the bother."
92126575 wrote:
Heard a joke once: Mare goes to doctor. Says she's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says she feels all alone in a threatening world where even ponies you thought were your friends can't be trusted. Doctor says "Treatment is simple. Go to one of Pinkie Pie's great parties tonight. Party hard. That should pick you up." Mare bursts into tears. Says "But, doctor...I am Pinkie Pie." Good joke. Everypony laughs. Roll on snare drum. Curtains. Fade to black.
69511863 wrote:
Sure, "the average person" might go see Transformers 3 if s/he wants a good story, but that doesn't stop people from making decent movies. Hell, they even managed to make Batman into a respectable movie. "The average" person might like American Idol or Jersey Shore, but people still made The Wire.
57722938 wrote:
I think the people who would sit down and listen to a minstrel reciting Homer, or thought that novels were art, or read poetry were always a minority. It's a common viewpoint that art was better in the past because everyone's forgotten the bad stuff, while we haven't had time to forget the awful stuff that is current.
56738148 wrote:
For almost all Magic fans, the "story" of Ravnica, for example, is that it's a city world with ten guilds -- yes, for most, that's a "story." All but a tiny fraction of the fan base are entirely unaware of an elaborate plot perpetrated by Augustin IV to trick Agrus Kos and Szadek into breaking the Guildpact, thereby enabling the Azorius to take control. Likewise, the vast majority of Magic players don't know who Harbin is, or Nivea, or Al-Hayat, or Feather, or Jared Carthalion, or Rebbec, or Zagorka ... the list goes on and on.
57916198 wrote:
I'm pulling this out of nowhere and it has nothing like fact attached to it, but it cannot be disproven without breaking the fourth wall, and this is going to be my headcanon because it makes perfect sense. I posit [Tamiyo, the Moon Sage] writes the Planeswalker's Guides to planes.
And one more thing...
CANON is the collected events and details of a fictional work that come directly from its author or someone with equal authority to the author. CANNON is a weapon that fires metal balls at a target, usually a structure or a crowd of enemy combatants. Every time you confuse the two, I'm forced to break one of my own fingers.
Is it possible for all the colours to coexist?

I'm sorry, but this just made me think of those "Coexist" bumper stickers, where the letters were all different religious symbols, so...

But about the balance thing: Each of the colors are defined by their enemies as much as they are by themselves. Being opposed to two other colors is part of each color's identity. They're SUPPOSED to be in conflict, and from the five way push-and-pull, a balance is usually achieved. The color wheel is a little like the yin and yang that way, but with five different swirly things instead of just two.

And as for Alara, I would definitely live on Bant if I could. I'd go Elspeth all over that place. Esper would be my second choice. Do you notice that we mostly seem to prefer the shards aligned with our own personal colors?



Yeah, I noticed that. I would love to live on Jund... The power and thrill of survival would be absolutely intoxicating. Bant wouldn't be a bad place to live either, but Esper seems like a scary place to me.

I don't think any of us would want to live on Grixis.
I would live on Grixis. I would live there only for the power I could gain.
[/sblock] [sblock=signature] I am Red/Black
I am Red/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's
I would live on Grixis. I would live there only for the power I could gain.


And you'd die and be resurrected for some kind of necromancers plan. You can gain power anywhere, there's no point in staying on Grixis for longer than you need.
I'd prefer to live on Esper, if I'm Middle Class or higher. No point in being on Esper as a poor scrub.
I can see the appeal of living in Jund, since I sometimes have this power fantasy of me wielding a big one-handed axe going all berserk.

OT: The colours might be able to coexist, in some settings, but I don't think it would make for a very interesting story, it might be interesting to see how the colours would interact in such setting, but that would be about it. 

After the official forums lost most of their functionality, a once vibrant community of Vorthos was wiped out.The survivors founded a new place to discuss all things concerning with the art, flavor and storylines of Magic: The Gathering. Come join us.

I would live on Grixis. I would live there only for the power I could gain.


And you'd die and be resurrected for some kind of necromancers plan. You can gain power anywhere, there's no point in staying on Grixis for longer than you need.
I'd prefer to live on Esper, if I'm Middle Class or higher. No point in being on Esper as a poor scrub.
I can see the appeal of living in Jund, since I sometimes have this power fantasy of me wielding a big one-handed axe going all berserk.

OT: The colours might be able to coexist, in some settings, but I don't think it would make for a very interesting story, it might be interesting to see how the colours would interact in such setting, but that would be about it. 



I agree, there's not really anything good about living on Grixis. It's a horrific place. I've seen some horrible things, but a year in the most hellish place on Earth wouldn't compare to living a day in Grixis.

As far as the original topic, I think most every setting we've seen has the colors in coexistance. Other than the Shards, Serra's Realm, and Old Phyrexia, every plane seems to have a balance of colors.
I would live on Grixis. I would live there only for the power I could gain.


And you'd die and be resurrected for some kind of necromancers plan. You can gain power anywhere, there's no point in staying on Grixis for longer than you need.
I'd prefer to live on Esper, if I'm Middle Class or higher. No point in being on Esper as a poor scrub.
I can see the appeal of living in Jund, since I sometimes have this power fantasy of me wielding a big one-handed axe going all berserk.

OT: The colours might be able to coexist, in some settings, but I don't think it would make for a very interesting story, it might be interesting to see how the colours would interact in such setting, but that would be about it. 



I agree, there's not really anything good about living on Grixis. It's a horrific place. I've seen some horrible things, but a year in the most hellish place on Earth wouldn't compare to living a day in Grixis.

As far as the original topic, I think most every setting we've seen has the colors in coexistance. Other than the Shards, Serra's Realm, and Old Phyrexia, every plane seems to have a balance of colors.



Well, Grixis requires heartlessness and I fill that. I am ruthless enough that I would take no **** from nobody, and I would kill/rekill/rerererekill them all.
[/sblock] [sblock=signature] I am Red/Black
I am Red/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's
Nice sign, Yanmato.

Honestly, I doubt anybody who didn't grow up in a chaotic war zone, join the military, and then become a wizard has the skills it takes to survive and do well on Jund, let alone Grixis. Any one of us would very likely be eaten or killed and turned into a zombie pretty quick.

I would hate living in Alara. Naya is too dangerous, and Bant is too hierarchical. The other shards look like hellholes to me.


As for the colors and their balance... what do you mean? Is it desirable for a plane to be color-balanced? Considering that color imbalance apparently results in stuff like the shards, and may be the reason artificial planes all go kablooie sooner or later, I'd say imbalance is a bad thing.

In society in the real world? I think we'd all prefer the philosophies we agree with to dominate and the ones we disagree with to weaken. I know I would.

Can they coexist without conflict? Without war, maybe, though even Lorwyn had violence. Without disagreement and striving against each other, no.


I would prefer to see more planes where the focus is on tribes or societies or countries or something, instead of the one-color-per-culture thing. It just comes across as artificial. Do most non-planeswalkers really know so much about the color pie that they organize their societies around it? Do they sit around and say, hm this continent doesn't have a monoblue culture yet, we need to turn ourselves into one! Lorwyn showed that that isn't even the only way to avoid a gold-heavy set.
Please note: unless I'm trying to be sarcastic or humorous, most of my posts are very literal. Don't try to "read between the lines" because there is usually nothing there. I try not to imply anything when I write.
Nice sign, Yanmato.

Honestly, I doubt anybody who didn't grow up in a chaotic war zone, join the military, and then become a wizard has the skills it takes to survive and do well on Jund, let alone Grixis. Any one of us would very likely be eaten or killed and turned into a zombie pretty quick.

I would hate living in Alara. Naya is too dangerous, and Bant is too hierarchical. The other shards look like hellholes to me.


As for the colors and their balance... what do you mean? Is it desirable for a plane to be color-balanced? Considering that color imbalance apparently results in stuff like the shards, and may be the reason artificial planes all go kablooie sooner or later, I'd say imbalance is a bad thing.

In society in the real world? I think we'd all prefer the philosophies we agree with to dominate and the ones we disagree with to weaken. I know I would.

Can they coexist without conflict? Without war, maybe, though even Lorwyn had violence. Without disagreement and striving against each other, no.


I would prefer to see more planes where the focus is on tribes or societies or countries or something, instead of the one-color-per-culture thing. It just comes across as artificial. Do most non-planeswalkers really know so much about the color pie that they organize their societies around it? Do they sit around and say, hm this continent doesn't have a monoblue culture yet, we need to turn ourselves into one! Lorwyn showed that that isn't even the only way to avoid a gold-heavy set.



Well, you could look up Dumara. I don't want any single color dedication there. Sorry, spam.
[/sblock] [sblock=signature] I am Red/Black
I am Red/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
I am Blue/Black
I am Blue/Black
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's
Nice sign, Yanmato.

Honestly, I doubt anybody who didn't grow up in a chaotic war zone, join the military, and then become a wizard has the skills it takes to survive and do well on Jund, let alone Grixis. Any one of us would very likely be eaten or killed and turned into a zombie pretty quick.

I would hate living in Alara. Naya is too dangerous, and Bant is too hierarchical. The other shards look like hellholes to me.


As for the colors and their balance... what do you mean? Is it desirable for a plane to be color-balanced? Considering that color imbalance apparently results in stuff like the shards, and may be the reason artificial planes all go kablooie sooner or later, I'd say imbalance is a bad thing.

In society in the real world? I think we'd all prefer the philosophies we agree with to dominate and the ones we disagree with to weaken. I know I would.

Can they coexist without conflict? Without war, maybe, though even Lorwyn had violence. Without disagreement and striving against each other, no.


I would prefer to see more planes where the focus is on tribes or societies or countries or something, instead of the one-color-per-culture thing. It just comes across as artificial. Do most non-planeswalkers really know so much about the color pie that they organize their societies around it? Do they sit around and say, hm this continent doesn't have a monoblue culture yet, we need to turn ourselves into one! Lorwyn showed that that isn't even the only way to avoid a gold-heavy set.



I think Ravnica really got it down when it came to the whole groups-with-color-identities thing. They're large organizations with a clear focus (even the Gruul), full of like-minded people with similar ideals.

-shrug- I have a number of specializations that I think would serve me fairly well on Jund.
On the "pick yer shard" discussion, Bant first, then Esper. The rest strike me as... unpleasant. To put it politely.

As far as the differences between people, everyone's lopsided. All five colors are present in everyone. It's just a question of how much each is represented. Using myself as an example, I'm mostly white and blue with sprinkles of green and black. Only trace amounts of red are present, if at all. People have described me as being cold and insensitive. But that doesn't mean that I can't be warm and I have no passion for anything. I'm human. And proud of it. It just means that the aspects of personality that red encompasses are not dominant in me.

This is the case for everyone. No functional human being hates harmony, or is literally entirely structureless, or is devoid of emotion. Because everyone is a mix of different ingredients; it's just that the ingredients are in different proportions for different preparations of a similar dish.
Is it possible for all the colours to coexist?

I'm sorry, but this just made me think of those "Coexist" bumper stickers, where the letters were all different religious symbols, so...

But about the balance thing: Each of the colors are defined by their enemies as much as they are by themselves. Being opposed to two other colors is part of each color's identity. They're SUPPOSED to be in conflict, and from the five way push-and-pull, a balance is usually achieved. The color wheel is a little like the yin and yang that way, but with five different swirly things instead of just two.

And as for Alara, I would definitely live on Bant if I could. I'd go Elspeth all over that place. Esper would be my second choice. Do you notice that we mostly seem to prefer the shards aligned with our own personal colors?

Wow I have never even seen that before :O
Wow I have never even seen that before :O

They're a fairly common sight in parts of North America. I don't know if they're around elsewhere. Man, it's hard to make pop culture jokes in a global forum.
"The truth resists simplicity."
Some memorable quotes
57461258 wrote:
I know, as a good liberal scholar, that I'm supposed to respect every other belief and culture and what have you that comes along but... at the end of the day, when all is said and done, some things are just plain wrong.
92481331 wrote:
Venser "Ah, Hello Myr. This is the King. Long Time no see. We thought today would be a good day for rolling. The Myr Battlesphere. The Myr. Where the first rolls and the second follows. Roll, roll, roll. For that purpose we went to the bother, the bother of fixing up Mirrodin. The King of the Multiverse going to the bother just for rolling a Myr Battlephere, just for that, we went to the bother."
92126575 wrote:
Heard a joke once: Mare goes to doctor. Says she's depressed. Says life seems harsh and cruel. Says she feels all alone in a threatening world where even ponies you thought were your friends can't be trusted. Doctor says "Treatment is simple. Go to one of Pinkie Pie's great parties tonight. Party hard. That should pick you up." Mare bursts into tears. Says "But, doctor...I am Pinkie Pie." Good joke. Everypony laughs. Roll on snare drum. Curtains. Fade to black.
69511863 wrote:
Sure, "the average person" might go see Transformers 3 if s/he wants a good story, but that doesn't stop people from making decent movies. Hell, they even managed to make Batman into a respectable movie. "The average" person might like American Idol or Jersey Shore, but people still made The Wire.
57722938 wrote:
I think the people who would sit down and listen to a minstrel reciting Homer, or thought that novels were art, or read poetry were always a minority. It's a common viewpoint that art was better in the past because everyone's forgotten the bad stuff, while we haven't had time to forget the awful stuff that is current.
56738148 wrote:
For almost all Magic fans, the "story" of Ravnica, for example, is that it's a city world with ten guilds -- yes, for most, that's a "story." All but a tiny fraction of the fan base are entirely unaware of an elaborate plot perpetrated by Augustin IV to trick Agrus Kos and Szadek into breaking the Guildpact, thereby enabling the Azorius to take control. Likewise, the vast majority of Magic players don't know who Harbin is, or Nivea, or Al-Hayat, or Feather, or Jared Carthalion, or Rebbec, or Zagorka ... the list goes on and on.
57916198 wrote:
I'm pulling this out of nowhere and it has nothing like fact attached to it, but it cannot be disproven without breaking the fourth wall, and this is going to be my headcanon because it makes perfect sense. I posit [Tamiyo, the Moon Sage] writes the Planeswalker's Guides to planes.
And one more thing...
CANON is the collected events and details of a fictional work that come directly from its author or someone with equal authority to the author. CANNON is a weapon that fires metal balls at a target, usually a structure or a crowd of enemy combatants. Every time you confuse the two, I'm forced to break one of my own fingers.
Wow I have never even seen that before :O

They're a fairly common sight in parts of North America. I don't know if they're around elsewhere. Man, it's hard to make pop culture jokes in a global forum.

Looks like a whole lotta science-magic to me (that was a pop-culture joke).

And I agree with Zulp.


Biodiversity vs 'Compleation':

Show
One of the interpretations of the colour wheel is that having an equal amount of all five colours equates to 'perfection', or is inherently superior to any other position in the wheel. But how true is that?

I have a hunch that PHYREXIA (and its 'compleation') is actually a proponent of that ideology.

It is also funny because, if you strive for absolute perfect equality in the colour wheel, then it ends up being unequal because it lacks crucial elements of freedom and unpredictability, identity and individuality (everyone and everything is the same), true diversity, progress, development and change (how can you improve upon perfection?). Many essential elements of the wheel are eliminated -mostly by annihilating each other- and ultimately even morality and compassion can no longer have a place in the spectrum, since perfection (compleation) is oppression in its ultimate form, and that is the last thing that any moral person wants.

In order to allow for real, living equality, the colour wheel must be constantly turning -constantly in flux- but not so in flux that it threatens to tear itself apart. Apply that to any ecosystem/social system etc it all works the same way. Biodiversity and cultural diversity operate under the same principles and are both vital to living things.

I am neutral, and one of the tenets of neutrality is pluralism: the belief that no one ideology, 'good' or 'evil', 'rational' or 'irrational' should ever have so much power that it threatens diversity. However, even neutrality itself can be a dangerous thing if given too much power, as the colour wheel seems to imply. Neutrality attacks dominant ideologies in order to protect lesser ones, but 'mono-neutrality' can destroy ALL ideologies. Some people, like anarchists, think this is a good thing, but they may be using the term ideology to refer specifically to monocultures, rather than any and all human perspectives.

Extreme five-colour perspectives are a useful counterpoint for stabilising a system that has gone 'off the wheels' and needs to be brought back into the 'sweet-spot' where life can really flourish, but just like any ideology, if it has a monopoly itself then it becomes dangerous and can make us completely paralysed and stagnant.

Nice sign, Yanmato.

Honestly, I doubt anybody who didn't grow up in a chaotic war zone, join the military, and then become a wizard has the skills it takes to survive and do well on Jund, let alone Grixis. Any one of us would very likely be eaten or killed and turned into a zombie pretty quick.



See, in an odd way, that is part of the appeal of Jund to me.

I think Doug put it best in one of my favorite savor the flavor articles:

"See why I like this place? It either kills you immediately—pretty likely—or forces your inner badass to the surface. It's a cauldron of molten danger that burns away weakness and indecision."

www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.a...

Sure, your life would be quick and short, but there is no question that you would be living, there would be no sleepwalking through class, work, commutes, etc. like in our everday lives.

My happiest moments in life have involved the vulnerability of being in a wildplace were really bad things can happen (remembers being caught in flash floods in desert river canyons twice in the same Summer, and cowering in a thunderstorm on the side of a mountain in between...*shudders*). Those moments can be really scary, even terrifying, but they also force you into the present moment which I think allows you to see more clearly and experience life more fully. There also the fact that you don't know what you are capable off until you are pushed to the brink.

Granted, too much of that isn't a good thing, and I really enjoy the tranquility of wilderness more, so admittedly Jund may be more intense than I'd bargain for. Naya is probably were I'd feel most at home.


Wow I have never even seen that before :O

They're a fairly common sight in parts of North America. I don't know if they're around elsewhere. Man, it's hard to make pop culture jokes in a global forum.

Looks like a whole lotta science-magic to me (that was a pop-culture joke).

And I agree with Zulp.


Biodiversity vs 'Compleation':

Show
One of the interpretations of the colour wheel is that having an equal amount of all five colours equates to 'perfection', or is inherently superior to any other position in the wheel. But how true is that?

I have a hunch that PHYREXIA (and its 'compleation') is actually a proponent of that ideology.

It is also funny because, if you strive for absolute perfect equality in the colour wheel, then it ends up being unequal because it lacks crucial elements of freedom and unpredictability, identity and individuality (everyone and everything is the same), true diversity, progress, development and change (how can you improve upon perfection?). Many essential elements of the wheel are eliminated -mostly by annihilating each other- and ultimately even morality and compassion can no longer have a place in the spectrum, since perfection (compleation) is oppression in its ultimate form, and that is the last thing that any moral person wants.

In order to allow for real, living equality, the colour wheel must be constantly turning -constantly in flux- but not so in flux that it threatens to tear itself apart. Apply that to any ecosystem/social system etc it all works the same way. Biodiversity and cultural diversity operate under the same principles and are both vital to living things.

I am neutral, and one of the tenets of neutrality is pluralism: the belief that no one ideology, 'good' or 'evil', 'rational' or 'irrational' should ever have so much power that it threatens diversity. However, even neutrality itself can be a dangerous thing if given too much power, as the colour wheel seems to imply. Neutrality attacks dominant ideologies in order to protect lesser ones, but 'mono-neutrality' can destroy ALL ideologies. Some people, like anarchists, think this is a good thing, but they may be using the term ideology to refer specifically to monocultures, rather than any and all human perspectives.

Extreme five-colour perspectives are a useful counterpoint for stabilising a system that has gone 'off the wheels' and needs to be brought back into the 'sweet-spot' where life can really flourish, but just like any ideology, if it has a monopoly itself then it becomes dangerous and can make us completely paralysed and stagnant.




Hey! I am an anarchist! I am an Rational Anarchist. I believe that everybody else should have their own beliefs.
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See, in an odd way, that is part of the appeal of Jund to me.

I think Doug put it best in one of my favorite savor the flavor articles:

"See why I like this place? It either kills you immediately—pretty likely—or forces your inner badass to the surface. It's a cauldron of molten danger that burns away weakness and indecision."

www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.a...

Sure, your life would be quick and short, but there is no question that you would be living, there would be no sleepwalking through class, work, commutes, etc. like in our everday lives.

My happiest moments in life have involved the vulnerability of being in a wildplace were really bad things can happen (remembers being caught in flash floods in desert river canyons twice in the same Summer, and cowering in a thunderstorm on the side of a mountain in between...*shudders*). Those moments can be really scary, even terrifying, but they also force you into the present moment which I think allows you to see more clearly and experience life more fully. There also the fact that you don't know what you are capable off until you are pushed to the brink.

Granted, too much of that isn't a good thing, and I really enjoy the tranquility of wilderness more, so admittedly Jund may be more intense than I'd bargain for. Naya is probably were I'd feel most at home.
 

That is quite a story :D and I am inclined to agree with you. I think that most of what you described about Jund would appeal to me, except that I think I am not quite cut out for something so competitive. I think in terms of animals, I am kind of like a bear :D


Hey! I am an anarchist! I am an Rational Anarchist. I believe that everybody else should have their own beliefs.

Cool :D like I said, words are all subjective, so when an anarchist says they are 'anti-ideology' they may be referring to something completely different to what I am referring to -or they may be referring to the EXACT same thing! I don't know.



I think the modern world is basically run by a monoculture we refer to as The Establishment, which is a clandestine college of corporations and special interest groups that control most of our reality. This is not to say that is bad or doesn't have its place, merely that it has too much influence in the modern world and is stifling everything else. I would love to do a writeup on the advantages of at some point.
Look up my newest planeswalker project (which is gonna be heavily edited).
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See, in an odd way, that is part of the appeal of Jund to me.

I think Doug put it best in one of my favorite savor the flavor articles:

"See why I like this place? It either kills you immediately—pretty likely—or forces your inner badass to the surface. It's a cauldron of molten danger that burns away weakness and indecision."

www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.a...

Sure, your life would be quick and short, but there is no question that you would be living, there would be no sleepwalking through class, work, commutes, etc. like in our everday lives.

My happiest moments in life have involved the vulnerability of being in a wildplace were really bad things can happen (remembers being caught in flash floods in desert river canyons twice in the same Summer, and cowering in a thunderstorm on the side of a mountain in between...*shudders*). Those moments can be really scary, even terrifying, but they also force you into the present moment which I think allows you to see more clearly and experience life more fully. There also the fact that you don't know what you are capable off until you are pushed to the brink.

Granted, too much of that isn't a good thing, and I really enjoy the tranquility of wilderness more, so admittedly Jund may be more intense than I'd bargain for. Naya is probably were I'd feel most at home.
 

That is quite a story :D and I am inclined to agree with you. I think that most of what you described about Jund would appeal to me, except that I think I am not quite cut out for something so competitive. I think in terms of animals, I am kind of like a bear :D


Hey! I am an anarchist! I am an Rational Anarchist. I believe that everybody else should have their own beliefs.

Cool :D like I said, words are all subjective, so when an anarchist says they are 'anti-ideology' they may be referring to something completely different to what I am referring to -or they may be referring to the EXACT same thing! I don't know.



I think the modern world is basically run by a monoculture we refer to as The Establishment, which is a clandestine college of corporations and special interest groups that control most of our reality. This is not to say that is bad or doesn't have its place, merely that it has too much influence in the modern world and is stifling everything else. I would love to do a writeup on the advantages of at some point.



I agree wholeheartedly. The big corporations and special interest groups are the Big Bads of today. War, government, television, everything- companies have their hands in everything today. They're the real power brokers, more than any country.
Polychromatic, I agree completely.


Stray_Dog, I don't think that opposite traits within the color pie have to "annihilate" each other in a balanced five-color situation. Instead compromise between them can be possible.

Take, for example, extreme mono-red's wish for absolute freedom and anarchy vs. extreme mono-white's wish for an absolute dictatorship. Instead of annihilating each other (and creating what?) they can mutually influence the situation to produce a balanced, non-extreme state that wouldn't be horrible to live in. You know, one where personal freedoms are balanced with having laws and a government. Or perhaps the way they were balanced in Naya.

That's an extreme example, but then I was using the most extreme expressions of white law vs. red anarchy for my example.
Please note: unless I'm trying to be sarcastic or humorous, most of my posts are very literal. Don't try to "read between the lines" because there is usually nothing there. I try not to imply anything when I write.
Polychromatic, I agree completely.


Stray_Dog, I don't think that opposite traits within the color pie have to "annihilate" each other in a balanced five-color situation. Instead compromise between them can be possible.

Take, for example, extreme mono-red's wish for absolute freedom and anarchy vs. extreme mono-white's wish for an absolute dictatorship. Instead of annihilating each other (and creating what?) they can mutually influence the situation to produce a balanced, non-extreme state that wouldn't be horrible to live in. You know, one where personal freedoms are balanced with having laws and a government. Or perhaps the way they were balanced in Naya.

That's an extreme example, but then I was using the most extreme expressions of white law vs. red anarchy for my example.



What about in a gentle color pie example?

@polychromatic: I wholeheartedly agree with you. If it was up to me, I would replace them with a 'council' of people who are smart, and wise. They would govern the affairs of the world, and keep order and peace. Not by force, but by respect (but force is sometimes a sad necessity).
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I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
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Polychromatic, I agree completely.


Stray_Dog, I don't think that opposite traits within the color pie have to "annihilate" each other in a balanced five-color situation. Instead compromise between them can be possible.

Take, for example, extreme mono-red's wish for absolute freedom and anarchy vs. extreme mono-white's wish for an absolute dictatorship. Instead of annihilating each other (and creating what?) they can mutually influence the situation to produce a balanced, non-extreme state that wouldn't be horrible to live in. You know, one where personal freedoms are balanced with having laws and a government. Or perhaps the way they were balanced in Naya.

That's an extreme example, but then I was using the most extreme expressions of white law vs. red anarchy for my example.



For all its flaws (political extremism and indecision, obesity, theocratic undertones), I feel that America is a pretty decent place to live. It's not war torn or generally unsafe, and although it doesn't compare to ultra-high standard places like Norway or Sweden, it strikes a good balance between 's wish for totalitarianism and 's wish for absolute anarchy. I don't mean to preach, I am simply making an observation. On the Shard scale, it's becoming more Esper than Bant (there's hardly any middle class anymore), but it's certainly not the psuedo-Jund that is many of the poorer, war-torn African countries.
Polychromatic, I agree completely.


Stray_Dog, I don't think that opposite traits within the color pie have to "annihilate" each other in a balanced five-color situation. Instead compromise between them can be possible.

Take, for example, extreme mono-red's wish for absolute freedom and anarchy vs. extreme mono-white's wish for an absolute dictatorship. Instead of annihilating each other (and creating what?) they can mutually influence the situation to produce a balanced, non-extreme state that wouldn't be horrible to live in. You know, one where personal freedoms are balanced with having laws and a government. Or perhaps the way they were balanced in Naya.

That's an extreme example, but then I was using the most extreme expressions of white law vs. red anarchy for my example.



For all its flaws (political extremism and indecision, obesity, theocratic undertones), I feel that America is a pretty decent place to live. It's not war torn or generally unsafe, and although it doesn't compare to ultra-high standard places like Norway or Sweden, it strikes a good balance between 's wish for totalitarianism and 's wish for absolute anarchy. I don't mean to preach, I am simply making an observation. On the Shard scale, it's becoming more Esper than Bant (there's hardly any middle class anymore), but it's certainly not the psuedo-Jund that is many of the poorer, war-torn African countries.



I am glad for this myself, but I am sad that everybody these days is obsessed with control and deceit.
[/sblock] [sblock=signature] I am Red/Black
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I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
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Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
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For all its flaws (political extremism and indecision, obesity, theocratic undertones), I feel that America is a pretty decent place to live. It's not war torn or generally unsafe, and although it doesn't compare to ultra-high standard places like Norway or Sweden, it strikes a good balance between 's wish for totalitarianism and 's wish for absolute anarchy. I don't mean to preach, I am simply making an observation. On the Shard scale, it's becoming more Esper than Bant (there's hardly any middle class anymore), but it's certainly not the psuedo-Jund that is many of the poorer, war-torn African countries.

I like to use the colour-wheel as a sounding board for philosophical discussions, so I don't mind that we are talking about real-world examples here. There are many other philosophical models out there, but the colour wheel is the coolest one I have found so far.

On Oppression:


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Diversity is kind of my modus operandi, so I am of a mind that there should be as many different government styles as there are nations, regardless of what those styles may be ("good" or "bad" being subjective interpretations.) The current monopoly doesn't allow this to exist, so it must be challenged and brought down one way or another -people usually disagree simply on the method, not the aim. I don't really have any moral opposition to violence, since absolute morality is mostly a social construct often used to suppress insurgency and violence has been a part of the animal kingdom since day one. The concept of greater good exists in nature, but it may not be the kind that we think of. An animal that kills another animal for food is not only helping itself to survive, but it is helping the prey species to keep its population in check, and helping the ecosystem as a whole by ensuring diversity and the balance of power. This is radically different from the typical human notion of absolute morality: "peace love and harmony" -so radically different that you may think I am commiting some kind of thought-crime simply for subscribing to the idea. Yes humans have innate empathy and compassion, but it is mostly only towards people we know well and have formed bonds of trust with -part of our circle or tribe. The rest is simply pleasantries made possible by a 'super tribal' illusion that is rigorously and willingly maintained by the majority of people including The Establishment, using liberal application of two emotions: shame and guilt. Even if you are aware of this illusion, you can still 'default' to it out of habit or convenience. It is only things like our unconscious archetype of the 'zombies horde' that clue us in to our fear of the vast unknown human mob with whom we share our territory against our will, and killing zombies represents our animal desire to drive these unknown creatures back from our territory, which was a much larger space for most of our biological history. Fantasies of alien invasions of planet earth also reflect our animal drive to compete with other lifeforms, urges which cannot be satisfied short of competing with each other since we have basically 'won' the game of life on this planet. Congratulations, humanity, A WINNER IS YOU!!! 

The main question though is, if these desires and fantasies form an unconscious part of us (some more than others), how should we go about expressing them? I tend to think that this is why fantasy, gaming, sports, films, storytelling etc are so vital to our mental wellbeing. Even if these drives/fantasies are simply 'vestigial' remnants of our genetic ancestry, we can't really 'let them go' short of some kind of genetic intervention -a notion I tend to find abhorrent. Times may be gone for truly honest men, but perhaps a conscious decision to indulge in our fantasies -regardless of whatever the mono-culture thinks of us- is honest enough?

I think that oppression is the worst form of violence we have. Worse than physical violence. Oppression is the kind of violence to which no individual can effectively respond, because it can exist in a memetic form as a collective unconscious expression, detatched from its source. Oppression dominates not only our bodies, but also our minds. Oppression is domination in its fullest, psycho-social sense. You cannot even escape it, unless you have the wisdom to identify it, the knowledge that alternatives exist, and the inner resource to explore those alternatives. Oppression and elitism, however, also exist in the animal kingdom, its just that in human society it has become something of a 'super-meme' -an idea that literally controls us.
Polychromatic, I agree completely.


Stray_Dog, I don't think that opposite traits within the color pie have to "annihilate" each other in a balanced five-color situation. Instead compromise between them can be possible.

Take, for example, extreme mono-red's wish for absolute freedom and anarchy vs. extreme mono-white's wish for an absolute dictatorship. Instead of annihilating each other (and creating what?) they can mutually influence the situation to produce a balanced, non-extreme state that wouldn't be horrible to live in. You know, one where personal freedoms are balanced with having laws and a government. Or perhaps the way they were balanced in Naya.

That's an extreme example, but then I was using the most extreme expressions of white law vs. red anarchy for my example.



For all its flaws (political extremism and indecision, obesity, theocratic undertones), I feel that America is a pretty decent place to live. It's not war torn or generally unsafe, and although it doesn't compare to ultra-high standard places like Norway or Sweden, it strikes a good balance between 's wish for totalitarianism and 's wish for absolute anarchy. I don't mean to preach, I am simply making an observation. On the Shard scale, it's becoming more Esper than Bant (there's hardly any middle class anymore), but it's certainly not the psuedo-Jund that is many of the poorer, war-torn African countries.


Noooooo, the United States has nowhere near enough to be Esper. It's primarily defined by enemy colors (:b so there is no shard which can easily simulate it.
"There are probably seven persons, in all, who really like my work; and they are enough. I should write even if I were the only patient reader, for my aim is merely self-expression." ~H.P. Lovecraft

My Colors Are Green and Blue I value respect, honesty, acceptance, and trust. I love to tell stories and to experience new things. At my best, I am compassionate and creative. At my worst, I am detached and submissive. My enemies are Black and White.

Polychromatic, I agree completely.


Stray_Dog, I don't think that opposite traits within the color pie have to "annihilate" each other in a balanced five-color situation. Instead compromise between them can be possible.

Take, for example, extreme mono-red's wish for absolute freedom and anarchy vs. extreme mono-white's wish for an absolute dictatorship. Instead of annihilating each other (and creating what?) they can mutually influence the situation to produce a balanced, non-extreme state that wouldn't be horrible to live in. You know, one where personal freedoms are balanced with having laws and a government. Or perhaps the way they were balanced in Naya.

That's an extreme example, but then I was using the most extreme expressions of white law vs. red anarchy for my example.



For all its flaws (political extremism and indecision, obesity, theocratic undertones), I feel that America is a pretty decent place to live. It's not war torn or generally unsafe, and although it doesn't compare to ultra-high standard places like Norway or Sweden, it strikes a good balance between 's wish for totalitarianism and 's wish for absolute anarchy. I don't mean to preach, I am simply making an observation. On the Shard scale, it's becoming more Esper than Bant (there's hardly any middle class anymore), but it's certainly not the psuedo-Jund that is many of the poorer, war-torn African countries.


Noooooo, the United States has nowhere near enough to be Esper. It's primarily defined by enemy colors (:b so there is no shard which can easily simulate it.



By comparing it to Esper I meant that the United States is far more than . It's much more control-based than honor-based (although there are definite caste comparisons to Bant).